665
Nice Going Buddy (lemmy.world)
submitted 2 months ago by to c/lemmyshitpost@lemmy.world
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[–] 66 points 2 months ago (26 children)

When the Christian friend convinces you into religion, but it turns out God hates belief in false gods more than non-belief (you picked the wrong religion).

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  • [–] 17 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (23 children)

    you picked the wrong religion

    There is no way that most people didn't pick the correct religion. Even if all Christians were "correct" enough to get to heaven regardless of denomination, that still leaves 71%+ of the world who aren't Christians. And that is best case scenario as Christians are the largest religious group by population in the world currently. And even within the Christian community, there are plenty of in-groups and out-groups that consider one another to be cultish and blasphemy. No matter what you are betting, your chances aren't great and the majority of the world is still "wrong" and will face whatever consequences come with that fact.

    Personally, I'm happy to just not believe rather than to force myself to conform to some oppressive dogma, dump my time and money into a church, and live with shame just to hedge my bets for what would still be bad odds anyway.

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  • [–] 3 points 2 months ago

    I prefer the simple answer proposed by the Death of the Discworld: everyone is getting exactly what they think is coming to them. The final justice is that of your own conscience.

    So pick a religion that aligns with your personal values and you'll be alright.

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  • [–] 8 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (18 children)

    It always impresses me how Christianity = evangelicalism in the mind of most Lemmynauts. Outside evangelicalism (and even partly within evangelicalism), going to hell or heaven has nothing to do with being theologically correct or not. I mean, even the Catholic church, which is both by far the biggest one and absolutely not one of the most open ones states with an absolute clarity that non-Christians can go to heaven too.

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  • [–] 6 points 2 months ago* (8 children)

    Catholics do not believe that non-Christians go to heaven. Best case scenario, righteous unbelievers go to purgatory. Same with unbaptised babies.

    Also, I grew up going to baptist and pentecostal churches. They 1000% do not think my atheist ass is getting into heaven no matter how righteous I am, even though I got baptized for that matter. Unless I repent at the 11th hour and "accept Jesus into my heart as my savior," anyway. There are certainly plenty denominations that are not all about preaching "hellfire for the unbeliever", but even plenty of those still believe that is true even if they're not boasting about it. There are some that allow for people to be saved through ignorance of Jesus (which makes missionary work kind of fucked up when you think about it that way). But even that is not the norm.

    Jesus' sacrifice saving humanity from eternal damnation is a key tenet of nearly all denominations. And most of them also say that you need to actually accept it and turn your life over to him to qualify for the get out of Hell free card.

    Source: 37 years of life in the Bible belt as both an active churchgoer and apostate.

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  • [–] 3 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (7 children)

    Purgatory is a step that leads to heaven, not a final destination. It's a step that a lot of Catholics will have to take too, according to the catholic church so it's not something that separates believers and non-believers.

    Baptism and Pentecostalism are categories of evangelicalism. So yeah, they believe that. But they're a minority within Christianity.

    Jesus' sacrifice saving humanity from eternal damnation is a key tenet of nearly all denominations.

    Yes.

    And most of them also say that you need to actually accept it and turn your life over to him to qualify for the get out of Hell free card.

    No. Only in evangelicalism.

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  • [–] 3 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    No. Only in evangelicalism.

    That is not true. Lots of Christian denominations believe that as well. Most of them in fact. You are just Americentric in your belief that Evangelicalism is automatically meant, when that is not really a large denomination outside of the US.

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  • [–] 0 points 2 months ago

    I'm not American. I know no denomination outside evangelicalism which teach that. And in France, even evangelicals does not teach that for a large part. Catholicism does not. Mainline Protestantism does not. I don't know well Eastern Orthodoxy, but as far as I know, they do not either.

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  • [–] 2 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    Well, consider me brainwashed by evangelicals then. Non-evangelicals really need to step up their PR game.

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  • [–] 2 points 2 months ago

    No. Only in evangelicalism.

    False, not only in evangelicalism. The words of Jesus Christ disagree with you. Do you need me to quote the "Narrow Gate" to you? You should be very familiar with it if you've read the Bible.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago (1 child)

    I was grown myself as a Catholic. And no, what you're saying is false.

    It might be sort of the "official stance", even though contradicted from one document to another (in the catechism it says that not believing is a cardinal sin, for example, which means that just by consistently refusing to believe, you go to hell, for example), but even if so, most of practitioners just believe that atheist or agnostig = dangerous, criminal, ill and will and SHOULD go to hell, and even worse if you critisize religion.

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  • [–] 0 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

    It will depend on your parish. Catholicism is not a monolith. But the Catechism is clear :

    [2125] Since it rejects or denies the existence of God, atheism is a sin against the virtue of religion. The imputability of this offense can be significantly diminished in virtue of the intentions and the circumstances. "Believers can have more than a little to do with the rise of atheism. To the extent that they are careless about their instruction in the faith, or present its teaching falsely, or even fail in their religious, moral, or social life, they must be said to conceal rather than to reveal the true nature of God and of religion."

    Atheism is taught to be very serious, but the circumstances have to be taken into account. People reject the Church because the believers fail in their mission, either because they wrongly teach or because of their actions which contradict the teaching. In this case, the imputability of the sin of atheism is diminished, so it's not anymore a cardinal sin. God only can make the difference.

    I'm no Catholic myself, but their teaching is clear. That members of the Church believe differently, especially in America where Evangelicalism seems to have win the religious cultural war is not surprising, but the teaching stays.

    Edit : I may be wrong, as always, but show me one Catholic official text that says that atheists go directly to hell, without the same kind of limitation as the Catechism. I think I'll wait a long time.

    But that doesn't negate what you experienced as a child. It's just that these people were not in accordance to the actual objective Catholic teaching, just like JD Vance. Religion in America is sick, and evangelicalism is the cause.

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  • [–] 4 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

    I'm old enough to remember when kids started taking their new flip phones to public school and secretly recording their teachers berating their muslim or atheist students. The recordings stopped when teachers realized any student could be recording any conversation.

    I'm also coded enough that bigots test the waters with me to see what I'll agree with. I don't exactly trust quiet christians. They're very polite when they assume you're also religious and things can go quickly downhill if they find out you're not.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago* (7 children)

    Sure they do! That's because they've become more moderate over the centuries in their long decline since The Great Mortality. This allows them to continue their parasitic ways in a secular society.

    However, they spent many more centuries claiming the exact opposite, because the Bible says that most will burn in Hell. Repeatedly. Throughout.

    The "absolute clarity" is in direct opposition to what they falsely claim is The Word of God. It's absolutely clear that they are a cancer on the Earth.

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  • [–] 2 points 2 months ago*

    Jesus actually uses two different words which get translated as hell: Sheol, and Hades. This makes sense, because most of the people around where he lived were Jews or Hellenists. Sinful Jews go to Sheol, where their souls are cleansed by a purifying fire and they cease to exist. Sinful Hellenists go to the bottom level of Hades, Tartarus, where they're punished forever.

    Neither of those is what Dante described in his fanfic.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (5 children)

    Wrong. But I had this discussion with evangelicals 1000 hundred times it's not interesting anymore. I'll begin by citing theologians like Aquinas (13^th^ century), you'll answer saying “meh don't care it's not in the Bible” or, if you studied theology (but you probably didn't), citing the one big exception, Augustine (which still wrote that God's mysterious grace could be greater than what he himself thought). But with that I will have proved that no, it's not a recent evolution of Christian theology, but something the churches hold still the beginning, with exceptions.

    Then I'll cite Romans 2:12-16, Luke 12:47-48, Matthew 25:31-46 or Acts 10:34-35, and you'll do mental gymnastics that will grant you a place in the coming Olympics to reconcile this with the idea that only Christians are saved, using texts like John 3:18. And I'll say, yes, the Bible contradicts itself on this subject like on most others, but my position is better established and coherent with the global message of the Bible, the church history, and the reason, while yours is not. And you'll be shocked : “what? You don't believe in biblical inerrancy? You're not a Christian!” and I'll answer “okay, bro”, like I do with disrespectful people on the net.

    And we will both have lost a lot of time, and you will have push more people to hate Christ while you will feel oh so righteous.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (4 children)

    You're wrong, according to the Bible itself, repeatedly throughout. Anyone who's read it knows that you're wrong.

    I have over 12 years of daily Bible studies, and don't care if you took a theology college course(s), or even if you were a Catholic priest, or whatever your education was.

    I'll cite Matthew 25:46, too. It says "eternal punishment" for a reason (and also John 3:18 of course)... and "the righteous" is clearly defined.... also, Isaiah 66:24, Matthew 13:50, Mark 9:42, Luke 13:3 and 16:23, 2 Thessalonians 1:9, Revelation 21:8, and on and on and on and on, there are many more.

    Also, recall the words of Jesus Himself, which disagree with you. The gate is narrow, and few will find it. I won't even get into original sin here, there's no need.

    Re Aquinas... he's not relevant to this discussion, I'm not talking medieval philosophers, but the Bible.

    Thank you for making up claims about my possible responses, as this clearly shows that you're not really interested in an actual discussion, and would instead prefer to babble your lazy imagining as if it were applicable. All of your assumptions about me are wrong, your strawman arguments are wrong, and you are wrong.

    If you consider this a waste of time, be silent. I quite enjoy it.

    As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly. ~Proverbs 26:11

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago (3 children)

    Okay, bro.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago* (2 children)

    Original sin, brah, take a course on that.

    ... and Jesus hates liars

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  • [–] 0 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    ... and Jesus hates liars

    Evangelicalism is a religion of hate, evidence #8376383.

    I pray that you'll find Jesus one day. Then you'll understand that he hates no one. In the meantime… bye, you're blocked. I can't do anything more for you.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

    I'm not evangelical, and what I say isn't evangelical.

    Please learn about logical fallacies and stop publicly embarrassing yourself (and me, you make me wince with your ridiculous arguments).

    1. Appeal to authority. The Pope is no authority about Heaven in any way. There is no larger group of deviant lunatics in history than Popes. Please educate yourself.

    This is your first lie.

    1. Appeal to majority. Catholicism being the majority religion means absolutely nothing. For example, the majority of people on Earth aren't Catholic... that doesn't mean that they are right (or wrong). So, the numbers have no bearing. Even Jesus says they don't... repeatedly.

    This is your second lie.

    1. Straw man. To follow it up, you spend a paragraph imagining who I am, and what my argument could be. You know absolutely nothing and your assumptions are wrong.

    This is your third lie.

    GOD says He hates liars. Jesus says He hates liars. In the Bible. Your opinion is without value.

    These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren. ~Proverbs 6:16-19

    This is your fourth lie.

    You are wrong by the the laws of logic, and you are wrong by the Word of God.

    Using any Pope as an authority on Heaven is, frankly, ridiculous and humiliating to everyone involved in your absurd claims; you should be ashamed of yourself. You are even wrong by the examples of history.

    You can't possibly be more wrong. Good day.

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  • [–] 2 points 2 months ago

    I'm not sure I'll ever get over how arrogant and simple-minded Pascal's Wager is. The whole premise is either Christianity or nothing; it doesn't account for any other religion. I just find it hilarious.

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    • [–] 46 points 2 months ago (4 children)

    Someone elsewhere said if you need religion to be a good person you're just a bad person on a leash.

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  • [–] 3 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (2 children)

    I'd rather them be a bad person on a leash than a bad person off the leash

    Edit: this was not meant as a serious take or anything. Just playing with the anecdote.

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  • [–] 3 points 2 months ago

    On the one hand, I agree. But on the other hand, that leash has led to pretty bad places many times over the centuries. I've come to believe that there's some truth to the "humans are kinda shit" premise of Christianity, just that sometimes it redirects that shittiness and other times it directs it (or individuals do in its name, since Christianity itself isn't an entity).

    I have no idea if humanity would be better off with or without religion. I don't need it personally but others having it might make everyone's lives better simply because they don't think they can get away with some things so don't try them.

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    • [–] 25 points 2 months ago

    Doesn't matter because that's the western Orthodox baptist second reformed heaven and you were a heathen western Orthodox baptist first reformed

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    [–] 22 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    Just pull the ole', "Look! A distraction!" and disappear into the billions-strong crowd stuck in the same boat.

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    • [–] 118 points 2 months ago (22 children)

    You should see it this way: Look at our world. Look at the bad things. Look at the horrific things. God lets all those things happen AND he wants his dick sucked as if he doing jack shit is a good thing.

    Go to hell. Be a rebel. Be proud of it.

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  • [–] 60 points 2 months ago (14 children)

    You don't understand, all that suffering and all those dead babies are part of His plaaaaaaan. How can you even have morals without believing in god, please excuse the piles of dead babies.

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  • [–] 27 points 2 months ago (12 children)

    Dead babies?

    "God works in mysterious ways."

    "Trust God's plan."

    "Everything happens for a reason."

    "You have to have faith."

    "We should pray."

    "He is testing our faith, like the book of Job."

    These are the bullshit answers they give us because they don't really have an answer.

    And when something good happens what do they say?

    "God is good!"

    "Praise the Lord!"

    Look, believe in God all you want but when someone pisses on you, don't call it rain.

    Have a meaningful conversation of how an all powerful, good God can allow so much suffering. Either he isn't good or he isn't powerful.

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  • [+] -6 points 2 months ago (9 children)

    Have a meaningful conversation of how an all-powerful, good God can allow so much suffering.

    Evolution is driven by adversity. Organisms experience stress, seek to relieve themselves of that stress, and improve upon their function iteratively over billions of years.

    Pain is a form of information which gives an organism an imperative to change. And with a great number of organisms, you will necessarily have a great deal of suffering. But without that pain, you lose the incentive to change. The end result is stagnation and decay. A lack of pain isn't joy, it's numbness. A lack of adversity does not imply triumph but inertia. What you're asking for isn't a Utopia, it's the heat death of the universe.

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  • [–] 8 points 2 months ago (8 children)

    I get it. Rape, murder, war, horrific disease, and all the other "adversity" the all-knowing cock known as God allows is for our own good. It's like a man beating his wife so she'll know better next time. She'll evolve due to the information provided by his fist.

    "What you're asking for isn't a Utopia, it's the heat death of the universe." I dunno about you but all I'm looking for is a little less genocide, maybe a bit fewer hungry children, maybe some consequences for well-known pedophiles.

    I guess if there is no horrific suffering in the world we won't evolve. I volunteer you for the next horror, you piece of shit.

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  • [–] 0 points 2 months ago (7 children)

    Rape, murder, war, horrific disease, and all the other “adversity”

    I mean, you're talking about this as though some Divine Agent actively is making one person sexually assault another. Or kill another. Or cough on one another.

    If you don't want to live in a world full of rape, I would suggest you start by not raping anyone. Grabbing someone by the hair, pulling them into the ally, violently forcing yourself on them, and then saying "God made me do it!" is the most cynical shit imaginable.

    “What you’re asking for isn’t a Utopia, it’s the heat death of the universe.” I dunno about you but all I’m looking for is a little less genocide, maybe a bit fewer hungry children, maybe some consequences for well-known pedophiles.

    I mean, good news? We've been emerging from a state of nature for thousands of years and we are absolutely reaching an apex of civilization such that genocide and famine are at an all time low. Meanwhile, pedophilia and rape and murder are increasingly reviled rather than celebrated or tolerated.

    But, again, your parents' generation watched a thirty-year-old Prince of Wales become betrothed to a 16-year-old girl and clapped like seals. God didn't make the English Monarchy do that.

    God didn't set up Little Saint James and stuff the Lolita Express full of post-Soviet block easily exploitable teenage refugees.

    God didn't initiate the Nakba or perpetuate a running genocide against the Palestinian people for the next 80 years. Neither did he kick off the German Holocaust or the Armenian Genocide. He didn't spread the Spanish Flu during WW1 or factory farm in such dense conditions that COVID erupted onto the public in 2020.

    All this shit is the direct result of human activity. Human ingenuity. Human passions. Human biases. Human politics.

    I guess if there is no horrific suffering in the world we won’t evolve.

    You can wave your hands and bemoan the existence of heat waves and hurricanes, then blame The Divine for building a universe in which some bad things happen to some living beings some of the time. But then you're obligated to posit a world without heat waves and without hurricanes. And good fucking luck. That's one hell of a balancing act.

    You can posit a world in which bad things happen but we just don't notice or care. But where does that end? Is suffering better if we're blind to it? Not to get too Biblical, but you eat from the Tree of Knowledge and you begin to see the world more clearly. Language, society, historical memory, the capacity for science and engineering - they're all double-edged swords.

    You could be a microbe right now, with absolutely no conceptualization of who you are or why you're here or what the universe outside a few centimeters looks like. And would that make you happier? Is that your Utopia? A few hours or days of existence mostly eating until you're fat enough for mitosis. Is that your idea of a good time?

    At least then you wouldn't know enough to blame God for anything, right?

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago (6 children)

    So then this all powerful God isn't smart or powerful enough to make a universe in which suffering isn't necessary. Seems pretty limiting for an all powerful, all knowing being.

    Do you also make justifications for billionaires that destroy the world? Because you're putting quite a bit of energy in to justifying something that is supposedly beyond comprehension. Wouldn't the more honest answer just be "I don't know."

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  • [–] 0 points 2 months ago (5 children)

    this all powerful God isn’t smart or powerful

    You don't have to be that smart or that powerful for humans to worship you as a God. Humans have worshipped their richest local neighbors. They've worshipped big animals. They've worshipped rocks.

    Do you also make justifications for billionaires that destroy the world?

    Justify what?

    I'll blame Elon Musk or Mark Zuckerberg for a big new Data Center sucking up my neighborhood's utilities.

    I won't blame them for the existence of malaria or the eccentricities of particle physics.

    you’re putting quite a bit of energy in to justifying

    Am I? It seems like you want a Magic Rock to blame for all your problems.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago (4 children)

    You're engaging dishonestly and changing the subject entirely. No comment was made on what humans worship or why, every comment was directed at a supposedly all-powerful God.

    You made an argument that this all-powerful God was constrained by physics. Then it cannot be an all-powerful God.

    That's the argument against creationism and religions with all-powerful deities.

    Magic rock to blame for all my problems? I honestly have no idea what you're getting at here. Theists blame magic for their harms. Atheists accept it as blind consequences in an uncaring universe. You're literally assigning theistic beliefs on atheism.

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  • [–] 0 points 2 months ago (3 children)

    You made an argument that this all-powerful God was constrained by physics.

    I did not make that argument

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  • [–] 2 points 2 months ago (2 children)

    Have a meaningful conversation of how an all powerful, good God can allow so much suffering. Either he isn't good or he isn't powerful.

    Evolution is driven by adversity. Organisms experience stress, seek to relieve themselves of that stress, and improve upon their function iteratively over billions of years.

    So is the all-powerful God constrained by physics or not? What argument, precisely, are you making? When the initial comment was to defend the belief in an all-powerful God.

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  • [–] 0 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    What argument, precisely, are you making?

    Bitch, learn to read. Go to school. Figure out the basics of the natural world.

    I'm not going to explain the explanation. Especially not when you've confused organic chemistry with Newtonian physics.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago

    Lol wow. Way to show your stupidity. Newtonian physics is a single branch, dipshit.

    Organic chemistry is dictated by physics, which is only a single step away from pure mathematics.

    I asked what argument you were trying to make, because you keep changing the subject of the conversation to the point of incoherence. But you're obviously too much of a pathetic religious cuck to engage with actual reason. 👍

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  • [–] 11 points 2 months ago

    Yeah, God is kinda an asshole, and if hes not, and hes worried about our opinions of him he really needs to work on his messaging and explaining why stuff has to be so shitty. Being God and all I imagine that isn't beyond his abilities...

    You know, assuming he existed...

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago* (1 child)

    Look at our world. Look at the bad things. Look at the horrific things. God lets all those things happen

    Literally the Al Pacino line while he's trying to convince his son to fuck his sister.

    Go to hell. Be a rebel. Be proud of it.

    I would simply break the Cycle of Samsara and rejoin the Cosmic Singularity by freeing myself from materialistic desire.

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    • [–] 18 points 2 months ago (5 children)

    Did people before Christianity just evaporate then?

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  • [–] 6 points 2 months ago* (4 children)

    IIRC the so-called "virtuous pagans" went to purgatory

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  • [–] 5 points 2 months ago (3 children)

    Who made that up?

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  • [–] 5 points 2 months ago (2 children)

    It's in the beginning of Dante's Inferno, not sure where he got the idea from.

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  • [–] 3 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    Same place all the preachers had to go to answer all the people who kept asking this exact question. They made it up with the only excuse that would get everyone to shut up. It's not from anywhere.

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    • [–] 36 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (17 children)

    Imagine a club where you can rape and pillage your entire life, ask for forgiveness on your dying breath and you're in.

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  • [–] 7 points 2 months ago (5 children)

    As long as you don't intend to ask for forgiveness in the first place

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  • [–] 10 points 2 months ago (4 children)

    Right. You have to have genuine remorse. Still dumb though.

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  • [–] 8 points 2 months ago (3 children)

    I dunno, I guess I think punitive justice is an inherently fucked up concept. When I was a kid, adults used to say two wrongs don't make a right. At first I thought they were full of shit, but as I grew older, I learned how horrible prisons are and how they don't make people better.

    In Christianity, you have to mean it. People can't turn their beliefs on a dime like that, meaning it takes work. You have to have done the work. Anyone who's successfully sacrificing Jesus would basically be capable of giving a meaningful apology to the victims and rehabilitating themself.

    Still, heaven isn't for Me. It's just not My aesthetic. When I die, I'm going to Ninuan.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago (2 children)

    Sure, they can be forgiven, by God, after they suffered a horrible death themselves.

    We don't even have to execute them, just denny them any services or any companionship from society. Anything not a basic need, and they will wish they died.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago

    After all the Deans being posted on Lemmy, I think I want to talk about Community.

    After Chang kidnapped the Dean and took over the school and was defeated by the study group, he showed up claiming to have Changnesia. Changnesia is a ridiculous lie and nobody believes it at first, but they decide to give him a chance, because we've all done bad things.

    Over time we get confirmation that Chang faked his Changnesia, and the characters end up pretty sure of it too. But still, they don't expose him as a fraud and they don't send him to prison, where legally, he belongs. Because prison doesn't solve problems.

    Nobody ever trusts Chang again. Everyone knows he can't be trusted. He can't be given power. He's evil. But he also has feelings, and he deserves happiness, as long as his happiness doesn't involve hurting anyone.

    May we all have our own redemption, even if it must come from something as absurd as Changnesia.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

    Notably, you're not asking for forgiveness from your victims. So you get to rape them, never apologize, and then still get to say "Welp. It's already been forgiven by some other guy!"

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  • [–] 0 points 2 months ago

    The one-true-and-perfectly-good has tried to genocide all form of life by drawning them under rain (fishes got very affraid)... but so yes, you won't get in his club without at least trying to be a bit as him…

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  • [–] -4 points 2 months ago (5 children)

    You can also ask how to spell you're

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  • [+] 8 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (5 children)
    [deleted]
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  • [–] 0 points 2 months ago (3 children)

    Are you too disabled to proofread?

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  • [+] 2 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (3 children)
    [deleted]
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  • [–] -1 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (2 children)

    I'm not perfect but I strive to better myself. Everyone should.

    Don't try to score pity points. Take valid criticism and improve your ass instead of attempting a weak counterattack. Taking responsibility for your failure is the first step toward improvement.

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    • [–] 17 points 2 months ago (6 children)

    The old Pascal's Wager. That's why I believe in every religion and none at the same time. I have to cover my bases.

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    • [–] 15 points 2 months ago (3 children)

    Sure, blame the atheism and conveniently forget about all the butt stuff.

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