The Whistleblower gets in trouble, not the offending LAPD Officers. There is no accountability left in American Police Forces.
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Hochman stated that his office was “listening to the impact the case was having on potential whistleblowers” when deciding to scale back the charges, acknowledging that the initial prosecution “sent the wrong message” to the public. While describing the comments by the other officers as “hate speech,” the district attorney noted there was insufficient evidence of a hate crime to bring criminal charges against them.
Fuck Hochman. There should never have been charges, and the racist pigs should have been fired. Charging a good faith whistleblower with any crime is vile. Hochman is lawless, fascist scum.
Yeah, he didn't like the press his efforts were bringing, so he backtracked. If this hadn't hit the news he'd be happily prosecuting.
Well I feel confident saying that any defense attorney who goes up against them would have a real easy job if I were on the jury. Maybe they can't be arrested, but holy shit can they become a liability to the force
That's the thing..... You don't have to do an actual crime to be reprimanded or dismissed by your employer. I imagine that committing hate speech is a fireable offense in pretty much any other job in America. It's crazy that the bar to fire a cop is set at prove they did a hate crime.
Remember to play it close to the vest during jury selection.
Yep. But also, for an opportunity to get on my soapbox, if you don't genuinely need to not serve in jury duty, don't try to get out of it. When we have a culture where everyone tries to get out of jury duty we find ourselves in a society where laws are enforced by people too dumb to get kicked out of a jury.
California is a two party consent state. He broke the law by recording them, and should be charged just as a civilian would. Or harsher because he's a cop.
But yes, the other cops should be fired.
The Constitution gives us the right to record our government officials in the performance of their duties.
Furthermore, whistleblower protections exist precisely for cases like this where something much more important is being uncovered.
recording your coworkers joking that someone died from eating too many tacos isn't really a case of whistleblowing because saying racist stuff isn't illegal. so this isn't precisely why whistleblowing laws exist at all.
You don't have to witness someone breaking an actual law to enact whistleblower protections, it can cover you when you reasonably believe there is "evidence of a violation of any law, rule, or regulation; gross mismanagement; a gross waste of funds; an abuse of authority; or a substantial and specific danger to public health or safety."
So yes, this is precisely why whistleblower protections exist.
whistleblower protections don't allow you to break the law in order to gather evidence in any way that you may see fit. so it's still illegal to record your co-workers without their knowledge even if they are being racist.
so no, this isn't what whistleblower protections cover at all, which is why this person is still being charged. I hope that clears it up for you.
don't allow you to break the law in order to gather evidence in any way that you may see fit. so it's still illegal to record your co-workers without their knowledge even if they are being racist.
Police officers do not have a reasonable expectation of privacy while on the job.
which is why this person is still being charged.
Being charged does not mean you have committed a crime.
Unfortunately US two party laws were made as a knee-jerk reaction to Nixon's wiretapping; the US doesn't deal in "expectations of privacy" like more sensible countries do.
Making an audio recording should be no different to getting out a pen and paper and making a written recording. Keeping a personal record should not be a crime. It's what you do with the recording that matters.
But that's how things should be, the law is often not right in this area. As others have said, the whistleblower broke the law here.
But that's how things should be, the law is often not right in this area. As others have said, the whistleblower broke the law here.
That's going to be decided by the judicial system. It's perfectly legal to record officers while they are on duty. The debate will be whether being on the clock and in a police station is the same as operating in their official capacity. Which I think is a pretty easy argument to make in court.
That’s going to be decided by the judicial system.
Absolutely. Like I've hinted at, the US is kind of unique in this black and white one party/two party consent structure. Other countries deal in "expectations of privacy", which is far more nuanced, and dare I say it, more sensible.
It’s perfectly legal to record officers while they are on duty.
It's legal for a member of the public to record an officer on duty. There is a question of whether they are considered on duty (sounds like maybe? It was senior officers formally training other officers, not some private locker room conversation) and also whether an officer can record another. It's perhaps a different legal dynamic between a member of the public and an officer, vs two officers.
How it plays out depends on the law. Like you say, he has a strong argument against a criminal conviction - and he shouldn't really be convicted of any crime either. But it does sound like he broke the letter of the law in that jurisdiction.
Police officers do not have a reasonable expectation of privacy while on the job.
ok, so now you have abandoned your argument that this person should be afforded whistleblower protections for breaking the law and now you are arguing that they didn't break the law?
you are wrong either way. becoming a police officer doesn't automatically sacrifice ones 'reasonable expectation of privacy'.
like so many of the other redditors you're confusing how you feel the world should work with how it actually does. you can argue with me forever but you are objectively wrong about this.
ok, so now you have abandoned your argument that this person should be afforded whistleblower protections for breaking the law and now you are arguing that they didn't break the law?
Wut? When did I claim that? My original claim was that a person didn't have to witness someone breaking a law to claim whistleblower protections. It can be utilized for something as small as witnessing misconduct.
you are wrong either way. becoming a police officer doesn't automatically sacrifice ones 'reasonable expectation of privacy'.
They do while they are on duty as a police officer...... They still have a expectation of privacy as when acting as a private citizen.
like so many of the other redditors you're confusing how you feel the world should work with how it actually does.
Think youight be projecting here......
But it sounds like they do allow you to record your coworkers if they're breaking a rule such as being grossly offensive about their colleagues...
I think people in positions of power should not be racist fuckwits making light of rape, but fuck me, right?
relying on racist tropes about Black people, and describing a young LAPD recruit as “rapeable” because they were “someone who could be taken advantage of.”
Is consent required when the flock cameras record you?
he maintained that Flores should face consequences for breaking privacy laws. He expressed hope that the decision would encourage future whistleblowers to work alongside prosecutors through authorized channels.
Flores was previously found guilty in a separate internal LAPD inquiry and handed a 22-day suspension without pay
The department also initiated confidential disciplinary proceedings against the officers who made the remarks, but has not confirmed whether any disciplinary action has been enforced.
"We hope this helps more whistleblowers come forward!" says the guy that punished the whistleblower and didn't do shit to the racist trash. 🙄 🙄 🙄
Additionally this misdemeanor sentence is reliant upon Flores "not breaking the law at any time within the year of his probationary period." How much you wanna bet these asshole cops absolutely hound this man for anything and everything? 100% they will stalk this man.
First time I've heard of a cop getting a suspension WITHOUT pay.
The confidential disciplinary proceeding was making the racist cops man the barbeque at the cookout and their beers weren't allowed to be cold.
This exemplifies the fundamental issue we have with police in the US
Poor behavior by cops isn't corrected. Anyone holding cops accountable, however, is punished
When good cops sit around letting bad cops do bad things, they all become bad cops. Most officers are unwilling to step in and stop a bad cop due to the culture around policing
Cops just can’t help being a fucking criminal gang. ACAB because the police fucking terrorize and murder any good cop willing to hold them accountable.
This is one of those things that always puts me on the fence about two party states. Like on the one hand I understand why you would want everybody to know they’re being recorded especially on like phone calls, on the other hand these cops definitely wouldn’t have said anything if they knew they were being recorded and then this shit happens.
I'd think that, since this conversation happened on public property, and the conversation was among public servants, the conversation is subject to the same standards as any other public conversation.
Maybe the legal system is too stupid for that, though.
My essential problem with the concept of two party consent is that the problem isn't, and never has been, people recording things that they personally see or hear.
The problem is what they do with those recordings.
I think if a person has real memory problems and records audio of all their conversations just so they can make notes for themselves later, few would find fault with that, regardless of consent.
If a person recorded everything but is was like a black box on an airplane, literally only reviewed after something horrible happens to the person but otherwise inaccessible to them or anyone else, I think few would have a problem with that.
If you're recording people with the intent to distribute the recordings or to train AI, many people would have a problem with that.
Maybe you can achieve something reasonable with two party and reasonable exceptions, just to make it easier on law enforcement. But I tend to think it makes more sense to start with one party consent and then strictly control what people can do or intend to do with recordings that lack consent.
In this case, the one cop was very specifically not being a bastard. As much as we need to keep calling out shitty behavior, we also need to reinforce good behavior.
That's why he won't be a cop anymore.
One of the good criminals!
Before anyone says something, I don't believe crime is necessarily a bad thing. Its just against the law. Laws and/or their applications aren't always good or just.
While there is a lower class, I am in it, while there is a criminal element, I am of it, and while there is a soul in prison, I am not free.
—Eugene Debs
If the law were inherently right, we would neither have nor need a facility for changing it.
And who do you propose should enforce the no raping and murdering laws?
They barely enforce those, considering how rare it is to prosecute rape and how low the solve rate for murders in a lot of states is. If you're murdered you have slightly better than a coin toss odds of having it solved in the US, and if you've been raped the odds of your rapist actually being found guilty are closer to 1%. Partly due to massive rape kit backlogs, partly due to victim blaming from cops leading to victims no longer cooperating.
So yeah, that's a good question, because the answer doesn't seem to be 'the police.'
So fix the police. You need someone to do the job.
POSIWID. If policing was a workable solution it would have worked by now. It's not like 'reform the police' is a thought someone had yesterday, people have poured countless hours of advocacy and passing laws into just that. And yet the problem still remains: cops are sources of violence in communities, just like the criminals they're allegedly protecting everyone from. I don't think calling one gang the good guys and the other the bad guys is a realistic way to solve the social problems that lead to crime.
passing laws into just that
When cops violate the law the prosecutor on that case is still the same local prosecutor that needs the cops to cooperate to make all her other cases. We don't have a federal department running very easy undercover operations where they test the police behavior during stops and arrests. Police unions are the only unions that republicans actually support.
There is very low hanging fruit that we've never fixed.
"We haven't found a perfect solution yet, so fuck it, let's just make rape legal"
Wow, when I reread my comment, that is what I said! Excellent reading comprehension and not at all a strawman!
If firefighters went around regularly starting fires when they got called out to a house you wouldn't be half a hesitant about calling the profession a problem.
I said fix the police, you said they are not fixable. That only leaves two paths forward: status quo or get rid of law enforcement. Laws that are unenforced leave the actions de facto legal.
False dichotomy
What third option is there? If we accept the premise that there's a problem with policing, you are left with four broad categories of what happens going forwards:
A) fix policing
B) leave it as is
C) get rid of it
D) make it worse
D is obviously what nobody wants, A is what the other guy said is impossible, so that only leaves B and C.
Is your daddy a cop or are you irresistibly drawn to defending the status quo? Struggling to think of other reasons to refuse to engage with anything I said other than ‘you said no cops, you want to legalize rape!’
Now that I think about it, maybe you just aren't understanding how broad of a category "fix the police" is.
"Execute all existing cops and start again with a completely different set of people with a completely different set of rules" is an idea that would fall under the umbrella of "fix the police".
The reason that laws truely exist is because there's someone to enforce them. "Police" is just the term used for whoever is doing that enforcement, whatever form it takes.
Don't get too hung up on the rape part. I just used that as an example of a law that we can all agree needs to exist. If I said "theft", there would be the added complication of whether or not that law should even exist in the first place.
Is there any reason to believe that doing any of that would actually fix the problems in policing? It's like saying the problem with the American colonies was that they didn't have the right king ruling over them. The problem is that people given power over other people are eventually going to abuse it.
Historically, some societies dealt with this by not having police at all (and I'm not talking tribes of 20 people, I'm talking tens of thousands of people) and having strong social networks to protect each other. That along with freedom of movement allowed people to seek out new communities or spend time away from the source of the conflict. Others had 'police' that could only use force on others during specific periods of time and rotated between different groups so that no one group held too much power. But this is closer to jury duty than anything that people would recognize as modern policing, and just like today there isn't a guy who's a professional juror who makes his living off voting on peoples' innocence or guilt (and occasionally gets caught taking bribes), in these societies there wasn't a type of guy that was a cop because the idea of it being your job to hurt people and force them to obey someone was considered abhorrent. If you want to read more about this it's not directly about policing, but I recommend 'The Dawn of Everything' by Matt Graeber and David Wengrow.
In the modern world, I really don't think you are going to be able to get away from having a professional police force, at least in the major cities. There's simply far too many people. Maybe a better situation looks somewhat like how firefighters are. Part time officers who just respond as needed in small communities, and you only have the full time forces in major cities. Even that gets hard, based solely on how much easier mobility has become relevant to the past.
At the end of the day, I don't think there's any one set of things to can do to make it perfect. There's a whole lot of smaller things to do to improve it, but I think the most important part will have to be much stronger oversight, and actual punishments for when one inevitably steps out of line.
The status quo sure as fuck isn't "fix it".
Considering only 25 per 1000 rapists get sentenced to prison, and only ~50% of murderers are found, with only ~70% of those found being convicted (that's about 350 per 1,000), cops are already doing fuckall about the rapists and murderers.
Perhaps you should be answering your own question considering the current system in place flat out doesn't fucking work
Read through my comments to the other guy. Already gone through this.
I did. You're really good at making strawmen and bootlicking and the other guy's really good at dodging questions. The question of what to do to ensure safe communities without police has thousands of valid answers that countless academics and activists have tirelessly worked on for decades.
Some of my favorites are voluntary community defense that are composed of people that actually live in the neigborhoods they're protecting, held directly accountable by the community, with positions easily revoked by that same community. Unarmed mental health crisis response teams composed of social workers and community paramedicine practitioners.
And the elephant in the room: abolishing capitalism, patriarchy, racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, and all other hierarchical power structures that create the conditions for "crime" to exist in the first place. Your ideas around crime and police are undergirded by a tangled web of assumptions, cultural conditioning, biases, and unanalyzed prejudice. If you actually give a shit and aren't just arguing on the Internet for shits and giggles, you should do some reading on the matter. Here's a starting point specifically around police abolition.
This article directly addresses your strawman of "what about the rapists and murderers?" and it's one of my personal favorites on the topic
Some people who do what they love will love what they do. Find a murderer to find other murderers.
They are reinforcing shitty behavior by charging the cop who reported the shitty behaviour.
This is exactly why ACAB, any who aren't are punished for it until they fall in line or leave the force.
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