Communists? On my equally shared, federated social media!? No way!
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Damn communists! They ruined communism!
I mean yeah, they absolutely did.
Communism is fantastic in theory, but in reality it doesn't work, and it won't ever work, because our species just doesn't work like that.
People are, by and large, greedy, power hungry and prone to corruption, and this is why we can't have nice things and are destroying the planet.
Yes you are so smart and above it all. Magic human nature is to blame for everything, people are not products of their material reality at all. We should all just be misanthropic dorks and never try to do anything to better anything while spouting off rightwing idealist nonsense that is observably false.
No, I'm just as human as the rest of you. I just don't believe people are capable of communism. Communism always ends with corrupt, power hungry dictators.
People are not capable of being better, if we were we would have done so by now. Humans have been around for 100,000 years or so, in various forms, so why in all our the known history, have we not been better yet? And why is it at all logical to assume we suddenly could be, despite this?

100,000 years or so, in various forms
Homosapiens have been around for 300,000 years. Homos (lol) have been around for millions of years. Homo erectus was around for just shy of two million years alone.
And for the vast majority of that time we weren't engaged on a free market economy.
You're just reiterating your observably false nonsense. Humans have improved from actual barbarians to slavers to civilised groups. Also "if everyone would just..." is not at all a communist position.
Also unsure if you realise this or not but you have the same misanthropic ideology of a mass shooter.
And no offence but 'civillised groups'? Lmao, you're going to have to define this too because fuck me does it reek of collonialism.
How are you defining babary? Just so I know exactly how to disprove your statement, please.
Wow uneven development is not something Marxists have ever studied /s
I'm sorry but you don't even have the faintest idea of what you're talking about I don't think we can hold a productive conversation. I hope you can educate yourself and move beyond your edgy teenager mass shooter ideology phase.
I'm probably twice your age. Over 50 people in my family, that I know of, were killed in the gulags and I grew up hearing about just how great communism was from my Polish family, who lived under communism till 1989.
I too though had a Marxist phase as a teenager and I so strongly believed people were capable of being better if only they would read Marx and follow his ideas.
And then I grew the fuck up and stopped believing in magical opposite world realities suddenly coming into fruition.
Power corrupts and those with power over us will always be corrupted. There is no such thing as a benevolent dictator.
60+ and still an edgy teenager with a misanthropic mass shooter ideology who speaks with authority on subjects without any study or investigation very impressive. For someone who allegedly read Marx your ability to not understand a single point Marxists make and instead spout off right wing talking points and strawmen is equally impressive.
Holy ad hominems batman, lmao. For someone who also clames to know about logical fallacies, you really don't seem to be doing to well on that front either.
Well done spelling those big words though!
You're the one who tried to play the age card to dodge the fact that your worldview is misanthropic garbage based on nothing of substance while you entirely misunderstand Marx and Marxist points then fight those misunderstandings as if they are the points themselves. No Marxist advocates for "if everyone would just..." or benevolent dictators or any of the nonsense you're spewing. I really think we should leave this here.
I hope you don't commit to your misanthropy too hard and end up on the news.
No Marxist advocates for “if everyone would just…”
But the whole reason this conversation with you started was because you didn't like that I said communism doesn't work because people aren't capable of it. And we haven't been capable of it yet anywhere either.
So if you're not arguing for 'if everybody would just' but also believe people are actually capable of communism... then what?
Work with me here, I'm really trying to understand you.
And ffs, with your attitude here, if anyone's likely to get on the news for something relating to this, it seems like you're closer to going all 'gulag for the non-believers', than I am to bothering to seek out any of you morons irl to be pissed at.
This person seems to be speaking from personal lived experience, which, to me, is more valuable than theory alone. Assuming they're telling the truth, of course.
There's a reason anecdotal evidence generally isn't worth much. Talking about your experience is great but using it to extrapolate to the sweeping remarks this person is making is dangerous and generally should be avoided.
I'd argue that lived experience (material reality) is the only thing that actually matters, and that theory can be confabulated by anyone. edit: again assuming that this person is a real person, not saying that their history is the only one that matters, just that real world lived experience is more important than theory
Here's another anecdote then. My polish family got saved from the Nazis by the russian army taking Poland, got a university education, the women got to be independent and have their own housing and material security.
Their religion was suppressed and they were unhappy about that but Polish Catholicism was extremely misogynistic and repressive.
Oh they also got vaccines and healthcare and shit.
It was no utopia but they were treated well enough that they regretted moving away for a long time.
This is difficult to respond to, but I'm going to try anyway.
I don't think your family's limited prosperity was worth the extermination of the other guy's family. Killing the Nazis is a very low bar for goodness. Americans also killed Nazis, and now look what's happening in the US.
If you have a bad situation, seeing someone else in a bad situation doesn't make your bad situation better, it just means that there are now two bad situations.
It wasn't just my family though, women were massively liberated in the USSR relative to basically everywhere in Eurasia at the time. Loads of people die in prison, maybe their family was Nazi collaborators, maybe mine was KGB agents, maybe we're both lying.
We should stick to verifiable facts when discussing history.
I don't think exterminating 50 families is worth it even if 50 other unrelated families get uplifted. At least, I don't think you can call it good or better. And I don't think any one specific theory or ideology is necessary for women's liberation. Women have historically liberated themselves using a myraid of different ideologies.
I don't think you can count theory alone as a "verifiable fact." The verifiable facts are the historically accurate first-person accounts of history which have been measured against corroborating witnesses and physical evidence. Marx wrote a book about his own thoughts and predictions. Some of these thoughts can be measured against reality and some of them cannot. Anybody can write down their thoughts, and the more intelligent you are, the more you can twist your words to make them sound good. Material reality and the lived experiences of real people matter more to me than what an intelligent person can make up or predict.
I find it hard to believe that every single person who died in a gulag was a Nazi collaborator, because not all of them were. Although we can't do it on Lemmy, it is possible to verify familial histories and first-person accounts. You're right about the fact that a lot of people lie on the internet so this whole discussion is kind of silly.
Feel free to believe that but social sciences are a science and there's a reason anecdotal evidence is not valued highly.
Should we discard all of quantum mechanics because of your lived experience with gravity? Obviously not.
This is a wildly false comparison, social science theories can't be compared to physics. Now you're just being very silly on purpose.
I cannot have a lived experience with gravity which is contrary to the existence of gravity. It is literally impossible. Why am I wasting my time explaining this? You know how silly this is.
They definitely can social science is just as much a science as "hard" sciences and extrapolating anecdotes to make general statements is equally garbage in both fields.
How much do you know about quantum mechanics and how gravity works differently at that scale and thus the need for an entire new field called quantum gravity?
Your lived experience of gravity as an attractive force of on earth roughly 9.8m/s^2 would be in direct opposition to quantum gravity
I grew up hearing about just how great communism was from my Polish family
And just so we're clear, because at this point my expectations for the people reading this are fairly low, 'great' in this context, is sarcasm.
As in, they did not actually find living under communism to be 'great'.
If I lived with your level of cynicism and bleak ass outlook every day I would kill myself, but you've shown us all today that people are capable of going beyond expectations
Wow, what a ray of sunshine you are!
And who knew that lemmy communists were such an intelligent, thoughtful and all together pleasant bunch?
Communism always ends with corrupt, power hungry dictators.
When you confuse capitalism for communism.
Humans have been around for 100,000 years or so, in various forms, so why in all our the known history, have we not been better yet?
Uhm, for like 95% of that time people have usually been better? There is little opportunity to become a dictator in a small group of hunter and gatherers and anthropological and archiological evidence points to many of these groups having been strongly egalitarian.
Communism always ends with corrupt, power hungry dictators.
"Communism is bad because " Challenge still ongoing, perfect record.
Brother, you don't need a specific economic organization to enable authoritarianism. You just need people with determination. You're literally living through a capitalist dictatorship, doing genocide and robbing value from it's people right now, almost no matter where in the world you live.
We're plagued by those that'd rather let the invicible hand help carry the trickle up to the top rungs of the economic ladder.
300,000* years, and a lot of that history is lost, but there's probably a lot more you just don't know about. There's a book called the dawn of everything: a new history of humanity by anthropologist David graeber and archeologist David wengrow that challenges the traditional view of human history. They provide evidence that early societies were much more complex than we've been led to believe.
Why do you seem to think a system beginning in the 16th century and developed in the 18th century would be better than something we could come up with today?
That book changed so much in my thinking, and made me realize how programmed I've been by post-enlightenment western philosophy. I'd internalized so much of the "progress equals inequality and hierarchies" way of thinking. That book showed me that indeed: "another world is possible". We are not greedy, selfish and violent by nature, we are just the products of the environment we live in and the education we receive. We can be, and have been throughout human history, far better people than we currently are.
Communism always ends with corrupt, power hungry dictators.
What if head government positions in general are attractive to corrupt, power hungry dictators?
The Weimar Republic wasn't communist, and it got a corrupt, power hungry dictator.
The United States isn't communist, and it's dealing with a corrupt, power hungry dictator.
Israel isn't communist, and it's dealing with a corrupt, power hungry dictator.
I wonder if maybe there are other factors in play that you aren't considering.
always
Always? Are you sure? Let's say there's a corrupt, power hungry person looking for a government spot. How would communism make it easier for the person to get into power, than in a capitalist system?
I think this might be telling on yourself a little bit, because I'm not really greedy or power hungry or prone to corruption, and most of the people I associate with aren't either
Yes, of course, because when I said 'most people' I clearly meant everyone.
And if you, and most of the people you know, are in positions of power and not shitty people, then you're either a pleasant person with nice friends, or lying. Either way, good for you.
Having to tell cynics that human nature is influenced by people's conditions of life really gets tiresome, but I guess we'll be doing it until we croak. The idea that human nature is fixed in the way you're suggesting is antithetical to freedom of choice, and in a way, also linear time/historical progression.
I see you're in the solarpunk server. Did you join to tell everyone that saving the ecosystem is hopeless, and we should accept our imminent extinction?
Yes, people can be self interested, so we must reward that self interest and punish any selflessnes. That must be the only way to build a fair and just society.
Ah, the human nature argument.
More like western elites' nature.
Because only western people are shitty? Or only the western 'elites'? Does being 'elite' from a non western country automatically absolve somebody from this?
I think I'm also going to need to get you to define 'western' and 'elite' here too.
Tell me you know nothing of human history without telling me you know nothing of human history.
Hear me out, here: We could tell the greedy fucks to fuck off, and we could make sure everyone nice is taken care of. By force, if necessary. (I mean, after we win elections lawfully with the will and mandate of the people and we enact legislation through proper procedure)
Hear me out, here: We could tell the greedy fucks to fuck off, and we could make sure everyone nice is taken care of. By force, if necessary. (I mean, after we win elections lawfully with the will and mandate of the people and we enact legislation through proper procedure)
Oh the irony.
It's insane how you still believe communism produces leaders who are infallible and uncorruptable, ignoring all the historical mountains of evidence that your side is just as prone to corrupt authoritarian dictatorships as the fascists are.
You lot really are just itching to run your own concentration camps gulags again, aren't you?
Via current capitalist systems, the only state sanctioned ways for me to Give Back to the community are based in religion or some branch of the military service.
Maybe I'm not looking hard enough. I could be wrong.
If communism is a failed system, why does the US keep going after communist places? Surely they're not a threat right? 🤔
What does "the HS" mean here?
Because there are no communist places. There are places where the ruling class plays pay lip service to the idea, but in reality they aren't communist. And the US tends to just ignore real implementations of socialism round the world.
Allende, Lumumba, Sankara and Castro would disagree with you.
Allende was president for about 3 years and committed suicide in office. Either it was a Russian style suicide of convenience or he was unfit anyway. So one cannot say if he would have gracefully given up his power or not. But, historically the odds are not so good.
Lumumba was assassinated 3 years into his presidency. So enough people disagreed with him evidently.
And Castro refused to relinquish office until he died of old age. Much like a king wouldn't you say?
There are socialist countries. The idea that communist parties can get by with simple lip service ignores how socialist countries actually function.
Socialism and communism are 2 different things. Just because some country hangs the word socialist in their name doesn't mean that they are. North Korea comes to mind. And lip service it is. After the revolution and they have executed all the bougie people, the strongest leader consolidates their power and bans all opposition parties. And even anyone who might pose a serious threat is in danger of death or imprisonment. See: Lenin and Mao for the 2 biggest examples.
Soviet Russia fell into a straight up dictatorship and well, Communist China doesn't even bother to hide that it isn't anymore. And neither government allows for much in the way of opposition then and now.
The socialist countries I can think of, like the Nordic countries, allow for open political elections and other parties to exist and participate in government. And they gracefully share and relinquish power if they lose an election. And interestingly enough, they don't feel the need to brag about their socialism either. They just are.
The DPRK is a socialist country, not because they claim to be, but because public ownership is the principal aspect of its economy, and the working classes control the state. The WPK did not ban all other political parties, in fact the Chongdoist Chongu Party and the Korean Social Democratic Party both have a small number of seats in the Supreme People's Assembly.
The USSR was not a dictatorship, either. Soviet elections had some of the highest rates of turnouts in the world, around 85%, and had recall elections at all levels. What the Soviet Union had was the dictatorship of the proletariat, in other words non-proletarian classes were stripped of political power. Same with the PRC, which enjoys a populace that believes themselves to be extremely democratic:

Communism is a fully collectivized mode of production and distribution, in classless society. No socialist country has made it to communism yet, because communism itself requires incredibly highly developed productive forces and global socialism before it can be established. Communism is not "extreme" socialism, nor is it "antidemocratic" socialism.
When you call imperialist social democracies like the Nordic countries "socialist," you are confusing welfare capitalism for socialism. In the Nordics, the working classes get a large share of the spoils of western imperialism, while capitalists continue to dominate the economy and the state. Nordic welfare depends not on an internally socialist economy, but instead on financial domination and extraction of the global south.
Further, you are confusing liberal democracy for democracy in general. The western model of democracy is just one of many, and it's the one best suited to maintaining capitalist control. This is why socialist countries have established more cohesive, comprehensive, and participatory government systems at all levels than capitalist countries have.
The Nordic countries don't brag about socialism because they aren't socialist in any capacity, and simply forced the inherent problems with capitalism onto the global south, rather than dealing with them domestically.
Yeah, yeah, communists, whatever. Did you know that some people still pretend to be Finnish here?
Is it at least of the luxurious gay space kind?
This is really it.
There's the fascist-owned platforms...most notably truthsocial, but definitely also X and Meta and all their platforms as well. I'd also say spez has absolutely bent the knee...several times. Fuck /u/spez.
And then there's the communist-operated platforms. Lemmy, and basically the entire fediverse.
I wouldn't say all instances are communist operated, certainly .ml, but many of them are just liberal, socialist, technohippies. (A term that I just coined now, and would gleefully apply to myself)
Only reddit still gets any of my traffic, and that's largely out of muscle-memory.
: Person posts something about communism.
: Buncha people in the comments inevitably say the same stale, dumb things about communism.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Transgender Anti-War Communists, no less.
The only thing scarier is a Muslim Mayor.
yeah but HASAN PIKER!!!
screams in terror
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