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[–] 55 points 3 months ago (5 children)

It isn't just a surveillance state, they are 100% building a behavior prediction algorithm state.

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  • [–] 29 points 3 months ago (3 children)

    The US government already started pre-crime policing. No future tense about it, full on dystopia is already here.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago

    It won't just be precrime, that's perhaps the most obvious and most blunt use. Essentially, prediction allows for deeper understanding of which actions affects our behavior and how, so they know what to do to get what they want from us. Its next level manipulation of subsets of the populace that results in massive increase in disempowerment. You thought we were powerless before? These tools are digital shepherds and prison guards for all of us.

    Has the wealthy class worked for or against your interests? If they gain more power, will they work for or against your interests? I don't see anything but tragedy resulting from their further empowerment.

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  • [–] 30 points 3 months ago

    For decades people have been warming about inverted totalitarianism.. where private companies do the heavy lifting in controlling and surveillance or the population. Very few listened. Now that we are approaching complete sacrifice of your privacy to these companies, people are finally waking up. But it may be too late.

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  • [–] 104 points 3 months ago* (21 children)

    Capitalists are constantly telling on themselves.

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  • [–] 18 points 3 months ago* (5 children)

    The same thing is happening/has already happened in China, the government there can find you and black bag you anywhere at any time. Ask Naomi Wu.

    Russia basically is this already.

    Europe is also trying to go there with the repeated attempts to pass chat control and age restrictions on internet access.

    In the US, capitalism is the tool the authoritarians are using to accomplish their goals, and it is absolutely enabling the spread of the surveillance state. Capitalism itself is not the motivation for the surveillance state, it's just being used by the authoritarians. If we're going to put a stop to this kind of behavior, we have to get the targets right. Flock and the other companies like them are a symptom of the larger problem.

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  • [–] 9 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    Ask Naomi Wu.

    To my knowledge, Naomi Wu was never "black bagged". She's still selling stuff on cybernightmarket. She's just done posting politics.

    But to compare the grief Wu got (and, from what I read forever ago, it was as much other terminally online types screaming at her as any state intervention) with Leqaa Kordia or Mahmoud Khalil both of whom absolutely were "black bagged" in the literal sense? Wu was not indefinitely detained in a prison camp or threatened with torture unless she "voluntarily self-deported", at least as far as I could find.

    Russia basically is this already.

    Russia is so much more, as they've weaponized their prison population into military conscripts.

    Really not looking forward to the day I'm arrested by an ICE agent who is, himself, wearing a bomb collar.

    Capitalism itself is not the motivation for the surveillance state

    The surveillance state is a vital tool of private industry when executives fear a proletariat insurrection. It is a necessary precondition to prevent insurrection.

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  • [–] 4 points 3 months ago

    Russia is so much more, as they've weaponized their prison population into military conscripts.

    It's even more than that. Russia has weaponized their entire civilian population. It's straight up nazi-level shit where you're either Z or you're a traitor. This is what American maga salivates about - complete and utter obedience through surveillance, legal and cultural bullying.

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  • [+] 2 points 3 months ago (2 children)
  • [–] 4 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    ...including, like, the custodian?

    You're not going to win over undecided people by advocating for unreasonable, indiscriminate violence, you're just going to give the opposition ammunition for calling you an extremist.

    It would be far more productive to support groups like the EFF and ACLU in lobbying for legislation to prevent such abusive technology. Also get involved in your local town/county politics to advocate against the installation of such things. The absolute last thing the sick fuckers running companies like Flock want is for people to organize against them. Don't push people away, encourage them to join.

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  • [+] 3 points 3 months ago* (1 child)
  • [–] 3 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

    Cut it with your divisive fetishism

    Pick a side.

    Right... I'm the one being divisive, by saying that we should organize and work together. Hilarious.

    systems that have already proven useless

    The thing doing the most damage to Flock right now is the negative public opinion pushing counties and townships to cancel contracts. Those "useless" systems are actively responding to the demands of their citizens, and Flock cameras are being removed in many jurisdictions. The way you hurt a capitalist enterprise is to take away its money (loss of contracts).

    So, how about you "pick a side" and join in with the effort that is actually producing results?

    https://www.npr.org/2026/02/17/nx-s1-5612825/flock-contracts-canceled-immigration-survillance-concerns

    https://www.politico.com/news/2026/08/09/flock-cameras-backlash-cancellations-01026242

    https://banflockcameras.com/tracker/

    Take Action

    We don't have to accept this future. You can:

    Stay informed about local meetings: ALPR.watch provides a calendar and map of upcoming public meetings with agenda items related to Flock and other surveillance systems. You can sign up for email alerts when meetings near you are scheduled.
    Contact your local officials and demand transparency and oversight of surveillance programs. (See 5 Calls)
    Support organizations like the ACLU and the EFF who challenge mass surveillance in the courts and legislatures.
    Start conversations with neighbors and community groups about the risks of systems like Flock.
    Share this website and make your community aware.

    https://www.stopflock.com/

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  • [–] 73 points 3 months ago (14 children)

    This isn't a capitalism problem. It's an authoritarianism problem. The only thing about this that relates to capitalism is that it's a private company setting up the cameras instead of the state doing it.

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  • [–] 26 points 3 months ago

    This is absolutely a capitalism problem. It's what happens when you let corporations do whatever without consequences as long as they can afford the bribes and in turn get contacts on taxpayer money.

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  • [–] 53 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    That's a gross over simplification that ignores the influence of the insurance industry shifting the baseline of public surveillance and crony capitalism that infects our municipalities.

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  • [–] 11 points 3 months ago (6 children)

    Authoritarianism means very little, it's such a broad term that doesn't localise the origin of repression. Instead of considering the root of the problem here, which is capitalism/private property, you look at a feature or a phenomenon.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    Meh, there's some smart people that have come up with a pretty clear understanding of authoritarianism.

    https://theauthoritarians.org/

    But your conclusion is also partly correct, the authoritarian personality is not inherently bad, they must first be weaponized.

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  • [–] 4 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

    I didn't say anything about the authoritarian personality and I don't really care that some people have figured out something they view as being integral to comprehending society. Honestly, I find life under the systems people like Fromm consider least authoritarian, think Sweden in the 70s, to still be be very brutal towards the masses.

    But you know what, I believe your conclusion is also party correct. People with an "authoritarian" streak can be used to guard a worker's movement.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago (3 children)

    So every capitalist country is authoritarian?

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    Yes, necessarily so if we were to take the epithet that is "authoritarianism" seriously. We just don't talk about what women in marriage have to put up with (the old adage of not biting the hand that feeds one), how we treat children and how accepted it is to subject people to dismal working conditions. It's considered normal, this is the status quo. You need to enforce property laws with deadly force, suppress movements and the organic formation of opinions and views, in order to for the system to keep functioning as it has.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago (1 child)

    Just to recheck, you're saying that Scandinavian countries are authoritarian?

    And, you realize that some capitalist countries with private property and capitalist markets, in practice approach anarchy?

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  • [–] 3 points 3 months ago

    Just to recheck, you’re saying that Scandinavian countries are authoritarian?

    Yes of course I am. I am Scandinavian. Have you ever travelled across the Öresund Bridge in a bus? They stop 50+ passengers for upwards of 45 minutes, pull out all the black and arab people seeking work, as well those who look particularly poor, subject them to highly invasive searches and then send some back if they feel like they can get away with it. Or take entering Gothenburg's harbor by ferry. The send a military ship out to escort your boat. They don't really have to do this, but they do it to really show you who is the boss/who has authority. When you arrive, something similar to the bus example happens. Take the all the black people into special rooms, make people walk past drug sniffing dogs (that have incredibly high rates of false positives, but that doesn't matter because it's about creating anxiety), and metal detectors. it's not just designed to scare minorities, it's also meant to incite fear in regular people.

    Also, search SÄPO, they are so lacking in transparency that even Swedish government media can't deny their lack of oversight and unbridled power.

    And, you realize that some capitalist countries with private property and capitalist markets, in practice approach anarchy?

    I do. Anarchy of production is the chief reason why climate change can't be battled by capitalism. I am not an anarchist, I don't know why you are bringing this up.

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  • [–] 57 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    We weren't jokingly saying the Chinese are living under it, though.

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  • [–] 42 points 3 months ago

    I wasn't joking when I said the ccp spies on their citizens and I wasn't joking when I said the US spies on their citizens after the Patroit Act. The normalization of a surveillance police state all across the world is terrifying.

    Uk too.

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  • [–] 14 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    I seriously need to get this giant big cyberpunk writing/worldbuilding project of mine on the road.

    Because at the moment, cyberpunk is becoming aspirational. Reality is just, dunno, cyberpunk but dumb as hell.

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  • [–] 46 points 3 months ago (4 children)

    Chinese citizen would be living under

    Correction: Chinese citizens already living under a surveillance state. UK and now US and also many other countries is merely learning from the best(worst). Mandatory age verification for socmed and game? China already have that years ago. ISP level blocking? Great Firewall of China is there from the beginning.

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  • [–] 30 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    End to end encryption chats are banned in China btw. China is living in this complete dystopia already and the only reason we don't hear it because China is very good at hiding this. The great firewall is as much to contain Chinese inside as it is to repel others.

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  • [–] 12 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

    And what's worse, eventually all the information gathered from all this surveillance will be turned into training data for AI. So right now, for all intents and purposes, none of us has any true privacy. And one of the most deeply damaging aspects of this is that it changes how we think. Subconsciously, when we're engaged in thinking and we have even a brief idea that our thoughts might somehow, someday be known (through the actions of a surveillance state, for example), we reframe our ideas so that one day they will be known by someone else; they will have an audience. This is a much different state than when we're able to think with the freedom of knowing, even subconsciously, that our ideas are completely private.

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  • [–] 22 points 3 months ago

    Always thought it was weird that they would scoff at their "social credit score" system. Emphasis on "social". As if that was the fucked up part.

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  • [–] 27 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    The surveillance state is not just in the US. China and the UK love that shit too. Pretty much any government with the money and will for it is doing it for the benefit of a digital panopticon.

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  • [–] 9 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    We're following China's lead in the adapting-to-social-scale game

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  • [–] 8 points 3 months ago

    Ah yes the old X>Y argument when in reality X<Y but is moving towards it. It's so effective at driving voter apathy.

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  • [–] 8 points 3 months ago

    The problem is that state agents can use surveillance tech or surveillance services with no regulatory review on how this technology interacts with the Fourth Amendment of the Constitution of the United States, what is specifically supposed to protect Americans from this sort of stuff.

    This is partly due to the presumption of regularity, the assumption by courts that law enforcement follows rules, even when we know they historically do not. (And DHS is even worse).

    It's a separate problem that private companies can also buy this data. They shouldn't have the right to surveil Americans for private purposes any more than the state does.

    Also be aware that some districts that are ending their contracts with Flock Safety are quietly switching over to other ALPR services such as Axon. Don't let your district get away with it.

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  • [–] 8 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    what fucking dashcams connect to the internet? and why would someone want to pay for a dataplan for it?

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  • [–] 10 points 3 months ago

    Uber certainly would. Just sell the data and make profit. Or realistically, just start scanning for bluetooth and wifi mac addresses, and upload that with GPS, which is what Flock is planning on doing, now you just tie it to a one time scanned license plate. Isn't technology grand? Ugh.

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  • [–] 10 points 3 months ago (8 children)

    Stop using their services. Call a taxi.

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  • [–] 14 points 3 months ago

    The other day, I saw the first Waymo van in Sacramento.

    If I saw the Waymo van, then it saw me, and Waymo infamously shares all its scanning data with law enforcement.

    I wasn't doing anything illegal, but that doesn't really matter in the states. Crime here is not about what you did, but who you are. And it's becoming also about what you think.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago (1 child)

    taxis are worst service though.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago

    They were. Most of them caught up to what the rideshare companies do and rideshares act more like taxis. Same with TSA pre-check vs Clear and broadcast vs cable/satellite/streaming. Or shopping online is a bit different with Amazon making a demand or online shopping and now anyone can do the same two day shipping if they wish.

    It’s the streaming service effect. You bring private capitalism in for convenience and you make jack up the price over time, you start seeing the holes in the plan, they lobby the government. But this whole time no one complained about this to the original because you didn’t know you wanted something, it was good enough.

    The original of something was always there and protected in and out with regulations local to federal.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago (4 children)

    You don't think they are the same? Seriously?

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago (3 children)

    Yellow cab doesn’t have dash cam last time I was in one in MYC a couple years ago.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago (2 children)

    Some do. That's an idiotic take of why a taxi over an Uber. You don't think that if Uber didn't exist that cabs wouldn't add cameras? Just Google the number of companies that have already added cameras to them.

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  • [–] 5 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    Aren't uber and lyft vehicles privately owned cars? They can't do that...

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  • [–] 9 points 3 months ago (11 children)

    Seems like USA is trying to be everything bad with china with none of the good parts

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  • [–] 0 points 3 months ago (10 children)

    What good parts are there in China for the average citizen?

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  • [–] 8 points 3 months ago (9 children)

    IDK their public transit and high speed trains seem pretty good. And they seem to actually be building high density, walkable housing (and it must be relatively affordable if some people can afford 2 or 3 places to live).

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  • [–] 3 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    What ever happened to that Social Credit score

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  • [–] -1 points 3 months ago (5 children)

    Umm not sure if you have been to China or actually know people from there, but no, public transportation isn't good everywhere (especially in rural regions), and housing absolutely isn't affordable, typically you need an entire families worth of income that goes to the son to afford a home, and on top of that, when you buy a home in China, you are given 70 year lease on the land, so not sure how many Americans would want that sort of thing. Great thinking of how things are far worse in other countries though.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    housing absolutely isn’t affordable typically you need an entire families worth of income that goes to the son to afford a home, and on top of that, when you buy a home in China, you are given 70 year lease on the land, so not sure how many Americans would want that sort of thing.

    Weird how despite all that, the home ownership rate in China is 96%

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  • [–] 0 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    Maybe read up a little more on that before touting that 90% number. Not exactly sure you'll enjoy those results: https://www.forbes.com/sites/wadeshepard/2016/03/30/how-people-in-china-afford-their-outrageously-expensive-homes/

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago

    What part of any of that am I supposed to be scandalized by, exactly? Because I read the whole article and I didn't see a single reason I shouldn't be touting the 96% home ownership rate.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago (1 child)

    Hard to believe it can get worse than somewhere like Arlington, TX (or any of the many other semi suburban places in America with NO public transit (as in not a single public bus or greyhound-type a day). I feel like 70 year lease would help stop the rich from hoarding generational wealth and giving it to their kids, allowing everyone a chance at getting a house when the parents die, though not sure how well it works in practice.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago

    I think you are forgetting at least in the US, that home ownership is the first and best way for people to 'move into the middle class'. I get getting rid of homes as an investment, but the fallout would finally stomp out the middle class and change it to a renting class and those who can afford to cycle and then rent property.

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