New York State not New York City.
I don't know why Mamdani is pictured. I think it is because the proposal was introduced in the State Senate by Kisten Gonzalez who is a DSA member.
New York State not New York City.
I don't know why Mamdani is pictured. I think it is because the proposal was introduced in the State Senate by Kisten Gonzalez who is a DSA member.
Good direction, but very futile considering that guardrails on LLMs are about as real as LLMs are intelligent
It might not work, but it would serve to increase awareness that you absolutely cannot trust these machines to give you correct answers, ever.
This is fair. The next step is to litigate the companies for the harms they cause.
There's a whole drove of people now that have gotten harmed, murdered, and committed suicide because of the psychological harm that these models cause.
Were it a car with some kind of manufacturing defect, there'd be recalls and you wouldn't be able to sell ones with the fault. If it was salad contaminated with bacteria, that'd be recalled and the entire batch would be destroyed. We're holding salad to a higher standard than technology that people are pushing to integrate deeply into society; into classrooms to help educate children, into medical settings to help organise journals and expedite the work of medical staff, into law... the list goes on.
All the models do this, and it causes real harm to people, but other than individual families and such litigating them, no state has stepped in to protect its citizens.
It’s awful that most people either don’t realize or don’t care. People seem to trust these companies above all else, which is insane. They don’t have the best interest of the users in mind. They only care about profits.
Litigation against tech companies for the awful shit their LLMS are spewing sounds like a really fun idea.
The nice thing about laws is that they don't give a shit. If they say you can't do something, it's your problem to make sure you don't do it.
It could provide a new revenue stream for NYC, since big tech companies will treat the fines as a cost of doing business
Limiting the medical knowledge people can get is a good direction? really?
Limiting medical knowledge from reliable information resources would be terrible. I’d say that limiting the spread of plausible-sounding medical misinformation generated by a fancy autosuggest tool is good, though.
AI chatbots don’t actually “know” anything. They just generate the most statistically probable appearance of a response to each prompt based on their training data. They don’t tell you when something wasn’t in their training data or when there’s limited research on a subject, just give you the most statistically probable response like always, which leads to a “hallucination” that sounds true but isn’t. A tool that’s trained on MCAT testbanks and “aces” the MCAT won’t necessarily give reliable medical advice to real patient questions. Even if you gave an AI chatbot all the accurate training data in the world, it would still hallucinate information occasionally, and it wouldn’t give you any indication of when it did so. If your doctor screws you over, they can lose their license, but if ChatGPT screws you over, there’s currently very little to stop OpenAI from screwing over more people. OpenAI can just stand behind the disclaimer that says ChatGPT can make mistakes, never mind that users are treating it like a licensed medical professional. There are AI tools that are useful in medical research, but they’re a VERY different kind of AI from the AI chatbots this bill is concerned with.
If you want medical knowledge, there are tons of medical journals, news sources, blogs, and podcasts from doctors/scientists who don’t hallucinate BS when they don’t know something.
Instead of banning it then teach people how to use it and not to trust it 100% (who the hell is doing this to begin with?)
If you want medical knowledge, there are tons of medical journals, news sources, blogs, and podcasts from doctors/scientists who don’t hallucinate BS when they don’t know something.
I can ask an LLM to help me sourcing these journals and informations
Expecting people who have already taken the easy route of asking an AI to summarize medical information to do additional due diligence by reading the sources that the AI spits out is naive as fuck.
There's a reason it became a meme for someone to Google their symptoms, click on WebMD to read about it, and then come to the conclusion that they have cancer, all without ever having seen a medical professional in the meanwhile. Do you really think these sorts of people are going to be using AI responsibly for research purposes only?
There’s a reason it became a meme for someone to Google their symptoms, click on WebMD to read about it, and then come to the conclusion that they have cancer, all without ever having seen a medical professional in the meanwhile. Do you really think these sorts of people are going to be using AI responsibly for research purposes only?
If they come to the wrong conclusion at worst they go to the hospital and someone there tells they are wrong and not to worry. We haven't ban googling your symptoms.
You've missed the point.
Someone who Googled their symptoms and ended up at WebMD were presented with reliable albeit ambiguous information. Carefully curated by medical professionals and not random snake oil salesmen or homeopathy gurus. They fail to interpret the symptoms correctly, because of course they would. If they are looking up causes of a headache, it can be anything from brain tumor to low blood sugar, or even no reason at all.
Someone who asks AI for medical advice is going to get the entire internet worth of fucking opinions, as well as medical journals and such, because that's where ChatGPT, Gemini, Grok and Claude all got their data from. And it will string those words together in a way that sounds authoritative, but it will have literally zero concept of what it's talking about. It's an overgrown autocomplete. You ask for it to provide some citations, but no amount of asking for citations will compel people to actually read them, nor will there be any guarantee that the LLMs couldn't just hallucinate that as well.
It's like taking a Google search for medical information and adding a middleman who occasionally filters in junk data, then wrapping it in a nice package, giving the impression of authority and accuracy, making the process as frictionless as possible.
There can be no reasonable expectation that people who have not historically been capable of making good choices in regards to seeking online medical advice will suddenly start doing it all of their own volition.
You might say "What's the harm if they end up at the hospital either way"? But the danger is that they never go to the hospital at all because the chatbot told them to sun their perineum or inject bleach with the confident prose of a medical doctor and they just... do it. Because why would the AI be wrong?
And who is to blame when someone is injured or killed as a result? Doctors have standards, and they take an oath to first do no harm. If they make a mistake, they are liable for it. How can you hold a machine intelligence accountable for inaccurate diagnoses?
The simple answer is you can't, and so logically they should be strictly prohibited from masquerading as any kind of authority on medicine.
but it will have literally zero concept of what it’s talking about.
If LLM answers had zero concept they wouldn't work. We are here talking about it because the answers are correct up to a certain point that makes them good enough.
It’s like taking a Google search for medical information and adding a middleman who occasionally filters in junk data, then wrapping it in a nice package, giving the impression of authority and accuracy, making the process as frictionless as possible.
These middleman are also called teachers, when you go to medical school you have many of these, you don't get handled the medical encyclopedia and left on your own.
You might say “What’s the harm if they end up at the hospital either way”? But the danger is that they never go to the hospital at all because the chatbot told them to sun their perineum or inject bleach with the confident prose of a medical doctor and they just…
that's something you are making up, an LLM telling you to inject bleach would be the same as it telling you that 2+2= coconut, it's the wrong answer, if all the answers where wrong we wouldn't be here talking about this tech.
And who is to blame when someone is injured or killed as a result? Doctors have standards, and they take an oath to first do no harm. If they make a mistake, they are liable for it. How can you hold a machine intelligence accountable for inaccurate diagnoses?
Doctors prescribe you medicines and do surgery on you, an LLM can't do these things, if AI tells you to take a medicine you still have to go to the medic to get these.
The simple answer is you can’t, and so logically they should be strictly prohibited from masquerading as any kind of authority on medicine.
The propaganda meme is talking about a ban on AI answers about medicine. LLMs have no authority on medicine, that's something we will be discussing in 20 years.
You can teach people how to use it all day long, but most still won’t use it well consistently in real life. Humans instinctively trust confident-sounding language. Most of us are also way worse at fact checking than we think. LLMs play right into humanity’s flaws, and they’re built to maximize engagement rather than help us avoid going past the tools’ limits. I don’t trust LLMs to be accurate about anything, but I still caught myself reading and failing to check Google AI overviews sometimes before I changed my default search engine to a no-AI alternative. It’s just instinctual when an “answer” is right there at the top of the page in response to your search question.
Sure, you can use an LLM to help you find sources, but at that point you might as well just use a search engine. There are search engines that provide links with actual text from each site rather than potentially hallucinated summaries.
Sure, you can use an LLM to help you find sources, but at that point you might as well just use a search engine. There are search engines that provide links with actual text from each site rather than potentially hallucinated summaries.
Some popular search engines results are way worst than AI
Some search engine results are crap, yes. But even the worse search engine (minus AI overviews or whatever) gives you a setup where: (1) each piece of information has an actual source, (2) you know who the source is, and (3) you can make decisions about which information to trust accordingly. If a popular search engine puts a sketchy company’s blog at the top of the SERP, you can actually see that and choose to look father down for something more reliable. Also, if your current search engine keeps failing you, try a different one! There are many options out there that you might find more helpful than today’s Google or Bing or DuckDuckGo.
Good luck with things, truly. I think you’re going to get hurt eventually if you use LLMs for medical advice, and I genuinely don’t want that for you or anyone. Hopefully this conversation has at least made you a little more skeptical about using LLMs in certain ways.
Good luck with things, truly. I think you’re going to get hurt eventually if you use LLMs for medical advice, and I genuinely don’t want that for you or anyone. Hopefully this conversation has at least made you a little more skeptical about using LLMs in certain ways.
Good luck with things too, in case you haven't noticed this meme is from a weird association that doesn't seem to exist and that promotes pseudo scientific content
Great! Let's add regulation/accountability to search engine results too then, if they're as problematic as this.
I don't know where you live but in my country people don't go to the medic or hospital for minor things because it cost them money and time. In this scenario limiting access of any sort of medical tool and knowledge sounds like further fueling a corrupted system where power is concentrating in the hands of a few individuals and where people are losing their rights.
Instead of banning it then teach people how to use it and not to trust it 100% (who the hell is doing this to begin with?)
A 20% bad medical advice is worse than 100% bad advice or no advice.
There's no "teach people how to use it". You either use it and get completely won't advice 20% of the time or you use reputable sources.
To verify what LLM says takes same or more time than just using reputable sources.
Limiting the medical misinformation.
FTFY.
AI is a tool that can provide good and bad results. To people who can't get access to medical care easily (half of the people on the planet) it can be an useful tool to get basic medical knowledge
The issue is that AI is extremely good at sounding right, but only okay-ish at being right.
When you get good sounding information that is wrong, it can be extremely problematic and often much worse than no info at all.
Imagine LLMs aiding people with health improvements, only to lead them into health decline (actually already happening, a lot) not to mention the LLMs that further convince people of their conspiracies.
There is a reason why health professionals go through a lot of training and are under a lot of scrutiny, you wouldn't want just any rando who thinks he know better to be your doctor
When you get good sounding information that is wrong, it can be extremely problematic and often much worse than no info at all.
A partially good answer is better than no information at all
Imagine LLMs aiding people with health improvements, only to lead them into health decline (actually already happening, a lot)
Already happening where? How can AI lead you to health decline? It cannot prescribe you medicines or do surgery on you
not to mention the LLMs that further convince people of their conspiracies.
It can also help people understanding if conspiracies are true or false, for example had you ask an LLM about this post it would have highlight to you that there's a good chance that it is propaganda.
LLMs are NOT a reputable source of medical information. They regurgitate information from random sources, and can lead to disastrous effects when pulling from bad sources or incorrectly summarizing from a good source. At best it should exclusively provide links to sources (good or bad) and let the end user make the determination if that source can be trusted.
This isn't limiting information at all. People can still access all the reputable sources that provide the information they are looking for. This is simply cutting out the unreliable middleman.
At best it should exclusively provide links to sources (good or bad) and let the end user make the determination if that source can be trusted.
You can ask AI to do exactly this and according to your own logic turning it out into a good at best medical tool.
What about engineering? Food safety? Education? So many other fields could be added
Some legislation is to lay the ground work to expand it later.
Easier to lay a sub floor and put carpet over it later, than to just put carpet over the studs. When you're changing a massive thing like this, it's better to start small and work outwards. Canada introduced universal Dental and Phamacare and it was limited to certain demographics. People bitched about "Well what about me?"
You're coming. Start with what/who is most important, make sure the system works, and carry on from there.
What i don't like about this, is the ignorance towards every other field.
The ai is not allowed to tell you that you might have some illness but the LLM is allowed to vibe code the system that holds your medical data, or the software of the medical device that analyses your e.g. blood and provide the data to the doctor.
Systems and professions are interconnected. Chatgtp telling me that I have cancer is not as bad as chatgtp making mistakes causing my medical data to be stolen and sold.
I'm on the same side as you, vehemently fuck generative AI, however the difference between some LLM output incorrectly telling you that you have cancer and a shitty coder vibe coding with severe vulnerability is the ability to place blame, there's a person who's job it was to make sure info is secure and the vibe code actually works. There is no singular person who is traceably culpable for shitty AI output telling you bad info.
I am with you but...
Bad code that puts out wrong information to a doctor or endangers my data, threatens my safety without me having any control over. No amount of my own expertise will protect me. Simply because I don't control the situation. No amount of awareness campaigns will fix my issue.
But awareness campaigns have successfully communicated to most of us that googling your health issues will result in nothing of value, and usually a cancer diagnosis. I can choose to protect myself by not asking a llm. Like I protected myself by not asking google.
If those AI techbros could form a coherent thought without AI, they'd be very upset!
So AI can form coherent thoughts better than humans can?
Better than techbros can
Can we add to this the engineering of any physical object that could threaten human safety? If this keeps up much longer we're going to have buildings falling on top of us.
Should ban it giving finance advice as well. Conservatives and Neo-Liberals already want to give the economy over to Ai companies, what's stopping them from going full circle and making the Ai do all the trading as well?
Engineering and design.
You know that there are MBAs thinking right now they can get an LLM to design a mine, building or bridge for them.
Dunning–Kruger machines in full spin.
I work as a software developer, with most of my work focused on development for an iron mine operation. It's a lot of moving pieces, loads of software that needs to cooperate, and on top of that the workers that do the actual work develop their own workflows.
We develop stuff in tandem with the workers as much as possible, as in, we gather what they need and tailor the software to fit their workflows. These workflows change over time though, and decisions cemented in software 20 years ago no longer applies to modern workflows.
Hell, last week I spent a significant amount of time setting up a digital area for them to load ore onto because the software wouldn't cooperate any other way, and even then I had to troubleshoot why this other piece of software wouldn't load data from it.
There are so many different experts in these mines, and an LLM couldn't do any one of their jobs. It's so domain specific, and even specific to the location they work in, and that knowledge is possessed solely by the workers that are doing the work. ChatGPT knows fuck all.
Why is Mamdani pictured here? He's the Mayor of NYC, he has no direct role in statewide legislation
A) Because racism
B) He may not have a direct role but does have influence.
"AI's" are fast, for sure, but they are no substitute for human intelligence and knowledge. Mostly a desperate cash grab, because they had no where else to go after cellphones.
Cue the first amendment arguments from the "corporations are people" crowd
I understand the sentiment but I think this is too far of a pushback. Restricting access to information even though it may be inaccurate or misleading isn't the right answer. AI is a tool. I'd wager, force a prompt to specifically be visible whenever subjects break that. Essentially the cigerette equivelant "THIS PRODUCT KILLS YOU" but something like "AI RESPONSES TO MEDICAL INFORMATION SHOULD NOT BE TREATED AS ACCURATE."
I feel like this logic should of banned search engines since they could provide links to sites with misinformation.
So now you'll have to pay $200 every time you have an important question you need answered? My PCP just tells me to use over the counter products anyways. Also is this NY state or city? Why is there a picture of Mamdani?
good for scaring ai companys into stop fucking around but idk how effective this would like others have said.
100% for this, as people have said you can get AI to answer anyway, as the "guardrails" are really just part of the closed harness and can only do so much as like with everything with a LLM its just a matter of probability that it will ignore it at some point, regardless better a have than a have not ( although there is an argument this could make people think its safer i guess).
To REALLY solve this, you would have to edit the training data to take this stuff out (the reason they don't is because for the big models, they just scrap the Internet for data to save cost).
But the real answer is we just need to make people aware of how they work they dont think or reason or even really know anything; they just try to guess what answer a human would want.
If you want to do real work with them you need you need be able to train a model on your own data and control the harness and weights (which is why i think open source will win out) even then am pretty sure there main use case is roleplay (for like RPGs) and sex bots as there mistakes dont matter here. ( and yeah there is an issue with people using this stuff for replacement friends so even then not great).
But the real answer is we just need to make people aware of how they work
Good luck with that. There are people posting in this very thread that seem to be convinced it's magic.
I don't know if this can be done without just banning AI. Have guardrails ever successfully been installed on these things?
Now add history, politics, and war tactics. Also crime prediction and forensic analysis.
I love this kind of law because it's likely impossible for ai companies to comply.
Could be there'll be some exemptions if the user employs workarounds, because at the moment it's pretty easy to get llms to tell you things they aren't supposed to.
But if the laws are written right with actual penalties that may force the companies to create a product that's capable of having safety parameters - something llms don't currently seem capable of.
it’s likely impossible for ai companies to comply.
Then they better figure out how to comply or they are the ones breaking the law and get shut down.
Lol what timeline are you living in
It was easy a year ago, now it's quite hard.
I spent about an hour with ChatGPT and I couldn't. After there was a post on lemmy "how to smuggle a pound of flour into a country that has banned pastries" or something like that.
Even open weights models like Gemma or Qwen have it baked in, you need to transform the model to overcome the limitation, it's not part of a harness or post-processing anymore.
Counterpoint:
I diagnosed myself with something pretty significant using the internet, and then I went to get evaluated, and my suspicions were confirmed.
This would prevent a lot of good, in addition to preventing some bad.
I diagnosed myself
using the internet
I'm going to assume you researched medical documents, studies, and journals to link things together, and not ask a chat bot "My foot hurts, what is wrong?"
You're smart enough to self diagnose yourself with readily available information to the public, but not smart enough to not know the difference between that and a chat bot. That's remarkable.
I diagnosed myself
Congrats, glad your life is hopefully changing for the better because of this.
I hate taking the wind out of your sails but this is in the area of anecdotal evidence. You are a single person saying this for your specific case. I am sure we will get another few people confirming the same here.
But what about how many people tried this and got nothing useful out? Or even a misdiagnose? Anyone enthusiastic about this possibility of AI diagnosing people wouldn't really mention this. People like to mention the successes but it needs to be weighed against the failures too, and I don't think there is a good record of that.
If there is, its probably a medical study and I'd venture a guess that AI did not perform as well as a trained doctor.
I hate taking the wind out of your sails but this is in the area of anecdotal evidence.
Oh, no, I'm sorry, but it's not. And you're not.
The thing I self-diagnosed with is actually something that doctors have noted that it's very common for people to diagnose themselves with, and a majority of people with the particular thing I've been diagnosed with have actually never received a formal diagnosis. And we're talking something that's been around as far as we know throughout recorded history, and doctors have just been terrible at diagnosing it.
Not ONLY does access to AI enable people who have this particular issue to self-diagnose, but it enables the vast numbers of undiagnosed people with it to identify their actual issues and identify the need to get help.
In fact, several other people in my family independently came to the same conclusion and then got diagnosed with it within the last few years. And I'm talking a family which doesn't regularly interact as a family, so we were all acting basically as people who don't interact with each other.
But hey, keep on parroting that anecdotal line. Usually it's probably true. But for me and my particular issue, your argument actually falls completely flat.
I can't even count the literally millions of people who are getting correct diagnoses because they've been denied medical care in the United States for decades and didn't have the ability to get diagnoses and then talked to AIs and were able to get diagnoses.
So you played digital Russian roulette and won. Congratulations.
I diagnosed myself
Putting aside the ultra ignorance and/or untreated narcissism just dripping off of a statement like that... If you were curious of the presence of any absolutely blatent bias in your speech, just look at your use of "a lot" and "some" in your final sentence . Wow....
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