A woman drives with both hands on the wheel. Her phone sits face-down on her lap. No officer pulls her over. No lights flash. Weeks later, a $1,251 ticket arrives in the mail. The evidence: a single frame from a Camera surveillance app. The charge: phone use while driving.

Automated camera companies market their devices as automated license plate readers — tools for catching stolen cars, flagging warrants, and aiding serious investigations.

Sold as a Crime Tool. Used as a Fine Machine.

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[–] 78 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (2 children)

I remember the NSA massive surveillance machine during the George W. Bush administration and Obama administration that tracked phone metadata and internet traffic that left or entered the US (which was used to justify a lot of surveillance of US citizens). Even after the Snowden disclosures of 2013 we were promised that the system was only meant to track foreign terrorists.

Then we learned that DEA had full access to it, and that NSA was sending hints to law enforcement about large amounts of cash in transit so it could be intercepted for purposes of asset forfeiture, what is nothing short of robbery of civilians by law enforcement officers.

This is an example of mission creep, in this case how it affects the surveillance state. Once we allow a method or technology to be used for major crime (like terrorism), it will eventually be used even for minor crime (like drug possession or distracted driving).

It's very common for courts to forgive a violation of fourth amendment protections against unreasonable search when the violation presents evidence for a major crime, but then that case will be used as precedent when the same violation occurs and discovers a minor infraction.

This is how, during the aughts and 2010s, the Fourth Amendment was gutted by a long run of carve-outs. Now, a police officer or state agent can violate your privacy without a warrant via a whole range of exceptions:

~ If the crime they discover is significant (SCOTUS suggested controlled substance possession as an example)
~ Using specialized technology, say long-range multi-spectrum cameras, or using a drone.
~ If probable cause can be established. A favorite is a detection dog that signals on anything and has a 90%+ false positive rate.¹ (This is a particular beef of mine, since fake detection dogs are now more common than actual detection dogs, and dogs are losing their presumption of regularity as a result.)
~ If the police officer was acting in good faith, which is obtusely defined and is very hard to disprove.
~ If the suspect is non-white or otherwise suspicious due prejudice. Really, in a lot of counties, law enforcement are allowed to operate on hunches, or have a suspicious activity parameter list that is so encompassing (and often contradictory) that it's impossible to not be suspicious.

If you want to know how we got here these were already problems during the Obama administration when we had allegedly reasonable people in elected offices. And while they discussed the risk of too much power falling into the wrong hands, they felt compelled to keep it.

Whether the One Ring, or the Ring of Gyges, power without consequence is too seductive.

¹ A similar issue is the $2 roadside drug test which reacts to a lot of substances that aren't controlled, such as glazed sugar off a donut. These were originally supposed to be then verified later in a lab, but instead were used to establish probable cause, and eventually were used as evidence in court.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago (1 child)

    This is wildly whack:

    https://www.propublica.org/article/common-roadside-drug-test-routinely-produces-false-positives

    The system must do everything in its power to drive false convictions down to absolute zero.

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  • [–] 78 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (21 children)

    Since the article appears to be mostly a weird collection of badly referenced random cases, let me give you the primary source on the case in the headline:

    https://www.tiktok.com/@kristakampz/video/7640403411845877012

    Edit and also to save you having to go to tiktok, here's a frame extracted from the video:

    Note, this was in Alexandra Headland in Queensland in Australia. So no idea why the article cites Georgia law....

    Also this is relevant: https://www.qld.gov.au/transport/safety/road-safety/mobile-phones

    Illegal mobile phone use while driving includes:

    • holding it in your hand
    • resting on any part of your body (eg. your lap or shoulder)

    If you hold your phone or have it on your body, you will be fined even if you’re not operating the phone, or it’s turned off.

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  • [–] 9 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    So no idea why the article cites Georgia law....

    Because there was another case in Georgia in December that they were citing as well. In fact they cite several cases in different parts of the country. The article is making a case for a supreme court challenge to these Constitution violating cameras and fines. The Australian cases just a viral opener for the topic.

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  • [–] 4 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (16 children)

    Why is it illegal to have a phone in your lap? That doesn't make sense. That's bizarre.

    Edit:

    Really? This is a hot take? WTF!

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  • [–] 6 points 3 months ago (3 children)

    A law that specified you were actively using the phone would be hard to enforce. Simmiliar to how it is usually illegal to have open alcohol within reach of the driver. The officer doesn't have to actually see you drinking it.

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  • [–] -1 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    How would it be hard to enforce? You can see it next their head.

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  • [–] 5 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    Ever since video playback is possible. You no longer need to put your phone on your head to use it.

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  • [–] -1 points 3 months ago

    These are cargo cult laws. They don't understand what the original laws were about. They just know "use phone in car bad" but they don't know why. Used to you had to hold the phone to your head and block half of your vision.

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  • [–] 16 points 3 months ago*

    Why is it illegal to have a phone in your lap?

    Likely to make the law in any way practical to enforce. Many people will use their phone in the car by keeping it between their legs like a middle schooler hiding their phone use from their teacher. They can read messages or watch videos while keeping it out of their hands, but it's still just as distracting.

    You could just ban looking at a phone in your lap while driving, but then you have the nightmare of proving that someone who glanced down was actually looking at their phone, rather than just randomly glancing down for some other innocent reason. And they would have to glance down at their phone at the exact moment a camera or police officer saw them.

    Phone use is actually very hard to enforce because of the nature of its use. People using their phone while driving don't tend to continuously look at the phone the whole time they drive - they would be completely incapable of driving if they did so. Instead, they use it intermittently, such as while stopped at a traffic light or while cruising down the highway. That use is still enough to degrade their driving performance to the level of a drunk driver, but it's not continuous. To make enforcement practical, you need to write the law so that it doesn't require a lucky coincidence to enforce.

    For an older comparable example, consider open container laws. You might reasonably ask, "wait, as long as I'm not drinking from it, why can't I have an open beer in the car? Maybe I just want to take my half-finished beer home from the bar and finish it at home!" And while that would be a perfectly innocuous reason to have an open container of alcohol in the car, it would also make drunk driving laws much more difficult to enforce. You could only ticket someone for drinking in the car if they happen to take a sip right when you're watching. Instead of trying to outlaw the infrequent action, you instead outlaw the necessary but continuous action. It's not practical to only ban drinking in vehicles. Instead you ban having an open container, as "possessing an open container" is something a drunk driver will be doing for a protracted period of time.

    It's not a perfect approach to writing laws; you do end up criminalizing some innocuous behavior. But trade offs have to be made. Yes, it's unfortunate that open container laws also make it so you can't bring your half-finished drink home from the bar. And yes, it's unfortunate that banning cell phone use while driving also requires banning just having a phone in your lap.

    But if you've ever worked in a classroom, you'll know that this is the only way to actually ban cell phone use while driving. Teachers learn very quickly they can't just ban students from using their phones, they have to completely ban them from having them out at all. Relying on lucky coincidences to enforce laws is not a practical solution.

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  • [–] 13 points 3 months ago (4 children)

    The only reason to have a phone in your lap while driving is if you intend to use said phone while driving.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago

    I know in Western Australia, where I live, it is illegal to have the phone resting on any part of your body.

    https://www.wa.gov.au/organisation/road-safety-commission/mobile-phones-and-distractions

    I wonder where the line is drawn between on your lap vs in your pocket. By that I mean, what if it is in a clear pouch on a lanyard around your neck, or in a running-armband. In both those cases it could still be used by need not have been touched while the car is driving.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago* (1 child)

    If you slam on the brakes or maybe brake too sudden and it flies off and onto the floor, then it could potentially slide under a pedal (like the brakes), hindering its function.

    Is it likely? Probably not, but it is a dangerous hazard waiting to happen.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago

    I've been trying to wrap my mind around the logic of this law and this was one of the things I considered they must be worried about. It's not so much people using them, it's just they don't want them in the lap. Because Uber and Lyft drivers have to use them for work in the US. Here they have they often have a mount on the dash board to hold their phone and they're constantly taking calls and checking maps.

    As you say though it's like a one in a million event freak accident if it flies off the lap and gets stuck under the pedal. It would be weird to pass a law for some off the wall scenario like that.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    Yes it does. Your phone is in your lap so you can look at it. Keep it away. I know everyone is addicted to them but just drive without looking st it.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago

    I don't own a car. I ride a bicycle and take Ubers and Lyfts for long distance travel, and smart phones are like the spice mélange to those drivers. They seem to need them to navigate the Universe. So this law just seems terribly ill-conceived. The lap is just an oddly specific place to focus on. So you can set them on the dashboard, center console, or anywhere else, but the lap is the danger zone?

    My main phone is a dumb phone. I hate smart phones and only got one specifically for Ubder and Lyfts, so I'm not addicted. So I'm standing outside looking in and it's a bizarre law. Sure, we don't want people playing Angry Birds while driving, but I don't think this is a well thought out solution that does anything at all except cause more chaos and suffering.

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  • [–] 222 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (7 children)

    Let's be sure to name and shame, for anyone who missed it: Georgia and Florida.

    Company is - you guessed it - Flock. (Mention of Flock in the article has been removed with a correction.)

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  • [–] 66 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    Flock is shit, but apparently not the one who did this. Ig they could be lying?

    Flock Safety reached out to us to clarify that our information was wrong. Flock cameras were not involved with the woman driving with her phone story. Alexandra Parade, where the incident took place, is a well traveled coastal highway with systems operated by state revenue programs. We have corrected that and removed any mention of Flock being involved with that story.

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  • [–] 16 points 3 months ago

    When I first heard of the amputee story (a bodycam video/audio of the initial encounter) it sounded to me like this was good old-fashioned police work, followed up with a typical harassment citation to send the citizen they didn't like's attitude to court if they wanted a chance to prove that they weren't holding a phone in their amputated hand.

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  • [–] 14 points 3 months ago

    I think people are rightfully referring to mass surveillance system cameras as Flock cameras.

    Even if the company folds, the cameras will still be operated. It doesnt matter what the brand is that makes em.

    It matters people know what they are.

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    [–] 126 points 3 months ago (20 children)

    Unconstitutional. Get that stupid ass shit dismissed in court.

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  • [–] 94 points 3 months ago (7 children)

    Get it dismissed, and then sue the department that sent the fine.

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  • [–] 23 points 3 months ago (4 children)

    Might have more luck suing the company running the camera software which flagged it.

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  • [–] 28 points 3 months ago (3 children)
  • [–] 24 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    YOU get a lawsuit! And YOU get a lawsuit!

    EVERYONE INVOLVED IN THIS STUPIDITY GETS A LAWSUIT!!!

    Too bad they'll all be thrown out of court after the company pays off the judge.....Ya know, it used to be when I'd say things like that, which I knew were always true, that people would say I'm crazy. That businesses can't just BUY their way out of a lawsuit.

    And now, the corruption is just out there. Everyone can see it now. Which kind of validates me, but also it means that things have gotten so much worse though out there. Now they feel no fear in basically telling the public "We run this shit, not you."

    Now for the next thing people will think I'm crazy for. Once they have it well established that they have bought and own the government, they'll begin taking things away. I'm not talking about healthcare, or important things. That's already started. They're in the process right now of gutting programs like SNAP, and Medicaid. They began that about a year ago.

    What I'm talking about is, right now you have no reason to believe that you can't go down to your local ice cream parlor and get an ice cream cone. Nothing wrong with that. No reason to believe you'll be denied. Give it time. There will come a day where you go to get ice cream, and they'll tell you no. You're not part of the in group. You're not allowed to have ice cream.

    And I'm not saying this about just ice cream. That's just one example of something that is an affordable luxury, that has zero importance in life but it makes you feel good. It brings you joy.

    Those are the types of things you'll start being denied as they take more and more for themselves. They'll want movie theaters to no longer allow the common man. They'll want public pools closed, and renovated into private pools with private entry. They'll want everything for them, and for you to beg to get common luxuries.

    For them, it's not about having vs not having. It's about power. The ability to lick an ice cream cone, as they watch you go without, and laugh. They want the status of being able to tell you what to do. They want the world for themselves. That's where this whole epstein's island comes from. Some of them might actually be attracted to young kids, but really the thrill for them is to be able to take your sons and daughters dignity. They want what society says they can't have, and is wrong for anyone to have. They want that. They want the taboo. They want the power to say they can have it anytime they want. Regardless of how wrong it is. To them it's a show of power, and that's all they've ever cared about.

    Call me crazy, but in 20 years, when there's an entire generation who's never tasted ice cream in their lives, maybe you'll remember this post. Probably not, but I will. Just like if I knew where my 1st grade teacher, Mrs Huey was, I'd go tell her the conversation we had 30+ years ago. The one in which she claimed that I'd grow up, and stop playing video games. I told her that on my death bed, I'd be playing video games no matter how old I got. I'm 42 now, and I'd ask her "At what point am I going to grow out of video games? When does the growing up happen? I'm older today, than you were the day you said that." And she, in turn, I assume would tell me it's not important, and that it was 30 years ago. Which is frustrating because 30 years ago she wouldn't believe me, and now, she won't care. Anything to avoid saying you were wrong I suppose. Which is weird to me. I have no issue when I'm wrong. Happens quite a bit. When I was 8, I thought I'd grow up to be one of the ninja turtles. Which, just conceptually makes no sense. The turtles became the turtles because they were already regular turtles, and then mutated when they got covered in toxic waste. If anything, I'd just be a really big mutated human. Think about it. The turtles were little regular pet store turtles. Maybe 7 inches tall if held upright. Then they get splashed with ooze, and they're like 7 feet tall. So as a kid, I was probably 4 feet tall......so I'd be like 30 feet tall I guess? I mean, that would still be cool, but also, we're ignoring the medical problems of being mutated. I'd probably get cancer again.

    What was I talking about again?

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  • [–] 10 points 3 months ago (10 children)

    What's unconstitutional about it? Genuinely asking.

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  • [–] 37 points 3 months ago (6 children)

    The Constitution guarantees the right to confront your accuser in court, which you can't do with an automated camera. It used to be a guaranteed win if you showed up at all because the camera itself couldn't hire a lawyer and present an argument.

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  • [–] 28 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    It doesn't have to. They send a representative from the camera company whose job it is to show up in court and rationalize their bullshit at the judge. I know this because I actually had to go through this process once, many years ago, to fight a clearly fraudulent ticket from one of these damn fool things in our local downtown.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    Do you happen to live in the area the company is headquartered? Because I can't imagine them flying a representative out for every ticket being contested.

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  • [–] 5 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

    These guys know how it works. They don't "fly" anyone anywhere. They have low paid lackeys available in any and all of the areas they operate whose job it is specifically to hang around in courthouses and defend their tickets. It's not like they drop everything and bundle an executive on a plane to go to Podunk, Missouri or whatever to argue about a one-off ticket.

    In my case this outfit only operates in our state, to my knowledge. They wouldn't have to go far.

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  • [–] 8 points 3 months ago

    That's an insane interpretation of the law. I don't know or even care what prior jurisprudence says on the matter, it's fucking dumb if it's been interpreted that way.

    If the camera took the photo and automatically issued the fine, then sure, I agree. But the camera should be taking the photo and passing it to a human to decide if a fine is warranted or not. And in that case, the human (or more to the point, the organisation the human works for) is the accuser. And the fine should stand, unless a defence explaining how the photo misrepresented the situation can be successfully mounted (similar to how a defence could be mounted explaining that the speed camera was incorrectly calibrated).

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  • [–] 4 points 3 months ago

    Not sure why you're being downvoted.

    It's the sixth amendent.

    For of such a short document it is ridiculous for any American not to know their rights. Unfortunately the internet has been taken over by the ignorant.

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  • [–] 15 points 3 months ago

    When traffic cameras are found to be unconstitutional it’s generally under the fourth amendment (unreasonable searches and seizures, requires probable cause for a search warrant). I don’t know if that’s how this case would shake out, but a ticket issued by a robot for having a phone in your lap face down is dumb as hell even if it’s not unconstitutional.

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  • [–] 24 points 3 months ago (12 children)

    I don't know what town it is exactly (Kirkland or Kenmore, WA), and they had a speed limit posted as 30mph., but gave my friend a ticket for going over 28 in a 25 zone. They grayed out the speed limit in the photo they sent that was approved by a cop. My friend would've had to go and get a picture of the sign to prove what assholes they were. I remember the sign and know for a fact that it said 30. Not enough to fight it, but enough to stay the fuck away from that town.

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  • [–] 32 points 3 months ago (7 children)

    Some towns literally just exist to extract money from nonlocals who don’t know to not go through there. There’s one near where I grew up that transitions from a 60 mph to a 30 mph zone at the bottom of a hill, so if you aren’t riding your brakes the whole way down you’re speeding. And of course the cops love to sit there and pop people with tickets for it.

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  • [–] 12 points 3 months ago

    Same sort of speed traps used to be along the only route to a casino I went to a few times. My first time driving to the casino, they were laying in wait. I got caught on the way back.

    Pigs sure do love to jam people up. Bonus points if they ruin the life of a minority! There certainly are no such thing as quotas, right?

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  • [–] 9 points 3 months ago

    Emporia, Virginia is another notorious one, right on heavily traveled I-95 as well as US-58. Virginia has front license plates, so the cars that don’t have front plates definitely aren’t from Virginia and if there’s a group of cars all going the same speed it’s the easy way to pick out the non-local. Saw it happen when I was a passenger.

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  • [–] 3 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (2 children)

    Ain't that shit considered "entrapment"?

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  • [–] 4 points 3 months ago

    Entrapment has a very specific definition, and this ain't it.

    It might still be an illegal speed limit change, but that's going to depend on an awful lot of details. It's certainly bad design, but the locals probably like it for the money it brings in.

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  • [–] 6 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    Not enough to fight it

    if that's not worth fighting then nothing is. I've met High school kids that have fought tickets before. U.S. Traffic Courts are notoroious for being extraordinarily mundane

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago

    They would have fought it if you could fight it like a normal ticket, but you couldn't. You could pay or write them a stern letter that would mean nothing. Seattle has those kinds of tickets too. This would have had to have been a trip to the AG or something. I don't know how they would have fought it without a lawyer.

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  • [–] 47 points 3 months ago* (5 children)

    obviously LLM-generated article from an odd outlet that publishes five articles every hour

    the news is real because it just regurgitates 404media

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  • [–] 14 points 3 months ago (2 children)
  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago* (1 child)

    yahoo news is not a news source but a site that republishes articles from other websites. you can tell from the top here that this is the exactly same article from Gadget Review

    apparently the 404media part is just a part of the article where it cites previous incidents. so then we don’t even have a source for the meat of the article save a random X thread.

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  • [–] [S] 43 points 3 months ago* (5 children)

    An example of what people in positions of authority think is perfectly acceptable:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robbins_v._Lower_Merion_School_District

    School authorities surreptitiously and remotely activated webcams embedded in school-issued laptops the students were using at home. After the suit was brought, the school district, of which the two high schools are part, revealed that it had secretly taken more than 66,000 images.

    A lawsuit wasn't enough, the administrators should be branded as sex offenders and the parents should have taken them out behind the school and beat the crap out of them.

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  • [–] 8 points 3 months ago

    The Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI), U.S. Attorney's Office, and Montgomery County District Attorney all initiated criminal investigations of the matter, which they combined and then closed because they did not find evidence "that would establish beyond a reasonable doubt that anyone involved had criminal intent".

    If I don't have intent to commit a crime but I break the law, it's not an excuse that a cop or judge will buy. Holy fuck.

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  • [–] 6 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    I seem to recall something about a story where, like, a kids mom didnt know the camera was remotely turned on and walked through the room naked, after having just gotten out of the shower, and there was some kind of CPS investigation about it?

    or is my brain mixing up several different school district voyeur stories together?

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  • [–] 19 points 3 months ago

    Would be funny if it was a more modern vehicle, with a massive ipad that's nearly bolted to your forehead and has displays on the back of every headrest.

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