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[–] 30 points 4 months ago*

So one particular example of this is... grants studying how flies breed.

Yep, face value, no investigation, sounds kinda silly.

But, what its actually for, is for learning how to introduce sterile bugs into populations of them that are actively spreading some kind of plague.

... Like the screwworm outbreak that is currently ravaging the southern US and central America.

Yep. Yep, we had people and stuff and systems in place to be able to handle that.

But then Trump and Elon's DOGE boys just... wiped all of that out. And our reward from that, is a plague.

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  • [–] 29 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    Even better if they can twist it to be something about weird sex: “why are our taxes going to a buncha eggheads studying the sex lives of bugs? Whaddareya, perverts?”

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  • [–] 50 points 4 months ago (31 children)

    Early people figured out crop rotation real fucking quick...

    Because it's literally the only way to grow any crop on the same plot of land pre industrial fertilizers

    A lot of cultures just grew multiple plants in the same plot that complimented each other.

    Monoculture is a huge problem, but incredibly recent on humanity's timescale. Don't think that we live in normal times just because these are the times we live in.

    People talk about the dotcom bubble or the AI bubble, but considering humans have been at least 300,000 years as a species without any significant evolution...

    Civilization is the bubble, we ain't meant for this shit.

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  • [–] 16 points 4 months ago (4 children)

    Hum...

    People turned entire regions into deserts by irrigating and picking crops wrongly.

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  • [–] -2 points 4 months ago (3 children)

    What?!

    Is that what you think happened to the Sarrah desert?

    It's on the same 21k year rotation it's been on for 8 million years...

    It's been happening long before humans, and will keep happening long after humans.

    If you mean any other desert, I honestly would love an example that's not a couple acres fucked over by modern mono culture

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    You've clearly never heard of the dust bowl. This is exactly what happened

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago*

    The dust bowl was because they tilled fields during dry seasons...

    Aka sustained droughts.

    They just kept tilling it, and the top soil literally just blew away.

    That doesn't have anything to do with crop rotation buddy, it just doesn't

    It's barely tangentially related

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  • [–] 22 points 4 months ago (24 children)

    Crop rotation is absolutely not obvious. It needs observation and experimentations with the very basic food production ones lives depends on.

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  • [–] 10 points 4 months ago (17 children)

    Buddy...

    They weren't idiots, it's not hard to figure out if you grew the same crop in the same place it worked out worse than before.

    Not to mention this isn't a hypothetical, archeology exists bro

    Don't think people thousands of years ago were dumber than us, humans have been unchanged for over 300k years.

    300,000 years ago ancient humans were born just as intelligent as any of us born today. And they dealt a lot more with plants, anyone that grew the same crop on the same land for multiple seasons would (and did) figure this out.

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  • [–] 10 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    I never said they were dumb. But it takes a long time of observing and reasoning to get such a result. And yes, archeology shows that between alternating crops and non-use as the early version and the "modern" three-crop-rotation is a four-digit gap.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago

    but it takes a long time of observing and reasoning to get such a result

    That's good logic, but you're using it wrong...

    You're saying it took a long time for them to figure it out, but also that they figured it out almost immediately after the last ice age.

    Now think about that...

    Even if you say it took a thousand years after the last ice age, we had ~200,000 years as a species before the last ice age started, and we've been thru multiple.

    If we figured it out right after the last ice age, why didn't the group of humans between the last two ice ages figure it out?

    The most plausible answer is that they did, and that anyone expecting to find evidence from before the last ice age even started doesn't understand anything about archeology.

    I'm not saying they had modern society, but statistically speaking they figured out agriculture because virtually every human population this cycle was able to figure it out independently real quick after the whole ice age thing blew over.

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  • [–] 7 points 4 months ago (12 children)

    The earliest evidence we've found of agriculture is from no more than 15,000 years ago.

    The Roman Empire appears to be the earliest evidence we have of formal crop rotation, but that doesn't mean they were the first to do it.

    Letting fields lie fallow to replenish the soil was so important to ancient cultures that it's recorded in the Torah as instructions received directly from God.

    Leviticus 25:1-7

    The Lord said to Moses at Mount Sinai, “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘When you enter the land I am going to give you, the land itself must observe a sabbath to the Lord. For six years sow your fields, and for six years prune your vineyards and gather their crops. But in the seventh year the land is to have a year of sabbath rest, a sabbath to the Lord. Do not sow your fields or prune your vineyards. Do not reap what grows of itself or harvest the grapes of your untended vines. The land is to have a year of rest. Whatever the land yields during the sabbath year will be food for you—for yourself, your male and female servants, and the hired worker and temporary resident who live among you, as well as for your livestock and the wild animals in your land. Whatever the land produces may be eaten...

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  • [–] -4 points 4 months ago* (11 children)

    The earliest evidence we’ve found of agriculture is from no more than 15,000 years ago.

    Uhhh...

    What evidence of agriculture do you think lasts longer than 15,000 years?

    Like, most recent glacier period may have ended as recently as ~12,000 years ago, what evidence of agriculture do you think can make it thru one glacier period? Let alone the multiple that humans have lived thru as a species?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_Glacial_Period

    Why don't you understand that the most likely explanation is this is something we kept inventing over and over throughout 300k years?

    And that glaciers are basically very slow bulldozers that erase pretty much everything.

    If we want to find evidence of agriculture more than 15k-20k years ago, we need to be looking at the Sarrah desert, because that was fertile farmland back then. They weren't hit by a glacier, but they're on a 21k year cycle and have been for over 8 million years.

    ancient cultures that it’s recorded in the Torah as instructions received directly from God.

    If you think the Torah is "ancient history" you're nowhere close to the right timescale to have this discussion...

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  • [–] 3 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (10 children)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_Glacial_Maximum#/media/File:CLIMAP.jpg

    I don't know why, but that image won't upload.

    Glaciers didn't get nearly as far as you seem to think. Sure that map just shows the last glacial maximum, but even prior to that Ice Age, they weren't going much further north and south than what is indicated. The last time that The Earth was a snowball predates not only humanity, but, IIRC, multicellular life.

    The evidence of it being invented that far back in human evolution would be very apparent in Africa, though you may have to do some scanning to find it as it would be buried by this point.

    I think you may be giving ancient humans a tiny bit too much credit. Sure they weren't stupid, and you are correct that our evolution physically seems to have slowed a lot, if not stalled, but our brains are a very different story. We really don't know how fast the brain developed, and I suspect it wasn't until around 12,000-15,0000 years ago that we finally stopped having a disconnected left and right brain. There's actually a fair bit of evidence that our brain's default setting was having the left and right hemispheres disconnected, which would explain why all our "gods" went silent worldwide around the time of the end of the bronze age. Heck that may have been a contributing factor in the collapse of the western world at the time. The Green Sahara period ending certainly didn't help things.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (9 children)

    Uhh...

    That's a picture of temperature changes, not glacier movement...

    Up to 25% of land was covered by glacier ice sheets during the last one. And it's not like it was a solid thing, it was a giant plow. A plow doesn't cover the whole road at once, it moves down a road.

    Just like glaciers didn't just expand like a snowbank in a blizzard, they moved which means they stopped being where they were...

    but our brains are a very different story. We really don’t know how fast the brain developed, and I suspect it wasn’t until around 12,000-15,0000 years ago that we finally stopped having a disconnected left and right brain.

    You really just said "we don't know, but we know"...

    Like, even tho I personally believe the whole master/slave hemisphere thing, there's no actual evidence that existed let alone when it stopped. We sure as shit don't know if master/slave hemisphere was what it was always like, or if that was the unusual period bro...

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  • [–] 3 points 4 months ago (8 children)

    The grey in that map which covers Antarctica as well as a ton of the southern oceans, as well as a significant portion of North America, and Europe shows the known glacier expansion of the last ice age. 25% doesn't come close to Africa, there wasn't a bulldozer in most of the world.

    No, I really just said "We don't know for sure, but I personally suspect." Try reading comprehension, it helps. The evidence that was the norm comes from our present day toddlers, as well as people writing about it in ancient Egypt, the Hittites, the Minoans, the Mittani, ancient Greeks, and ancient Chinese people. They all had learned scholars that wrote about not being able to hear the literal voice of their gods anymore, and wondered why the gods abandoned us. I suspect that was what happens in us to this day, except it happens when we are 2-3 years old. Most people don't remember that time, and the only reason I know it happened for me is that I told my parents, who later told me. Apparently "Other me" disappeared one day and it was very confusing.

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  • [–] 0 points 4 months ago (7 children)

    25% doesn’t come close to Africa, there wasn’t a bulldozer in most of the world.

    The Sarrah is on a 21k desert/rainforest cycle and has been for 8 million years...

    So evidence of agriculture in Africa is under a shit ton of sand. Evidence in South America is under new rainforest from the potassium being blown over from Africa, and itself part of the cycle.

    Like, even in rare cases that could support agriculture the whole time, if people lived there 20k years, then that's why there's no evidence.

    I grew up on a farm, finding arrowheads, broken pottery, and all types of other shit was normal because that's what happens as you till soil. That land had been worked for thousands of years, which means a constant churn and removal of artifacts from just centuries ago.

    If you keep living and working on the same land, you're constantly removing evidence that the land was worked.

    On a scale of 20k years, that shit adds up bro.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (6 children)

    I already referenced the Green Sahara cycle, I'm aware. The green period only lasts ≈10,000 years per cycle. The entire cycle is ≈23,000 years, and is tied to the Earth's axis wobble. It would be far more likely to find evidence in a more stable area rather than somewhere that causes Lake Chad to become Lake Gigachad (not what it's called, I know, don't care, sounds better.) every ≈13,000 years. There's a fuckton of water moving through that area from what we can tell.

    I also have lived on, and grew up on a farm, in the Midwest, tons of arrowheads of you knew where to look. The thing is that archaologists would literally kill each other to find any evidence of modern agriculture that is older than 12,000-15,000 years ago. They've found plenty of stuff to indicate that we spread out well before then, and that there were hunter-gatherer civilisations well before then. Not one of them has yet to find any evidence, even with the latest scanning tech that allows us not to dig, that anyone was farming prior to 12,000-15,000 years ago, and then we all started doing it. If archaologists can find evidence of something humanoid (may not have been homo-sapiens) in the area of San Diego either 125,000 or 250,000, I don't remember, years ago way back in the '90s, and they haven't found one shred of evidence that farming existed prior to 15,000 years ago, I'm gonna have to go with the professionals here.

    We've found evidence of ancient cultures that existed in the Green Sahara, and in South America. They've flown ground penetrating scanners over almost all of the planet at this point. Someone would have found the data.

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  • [–] 0 points 4 months ago* (5 children)

    Someone would have found the data.

    Are you arguing for young Earth creationism now?

    Or is it an accident you're using their exact same logic?

    Because to quote Donald Rumsfeld:

    The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence

    Especially when what we're talking about is evidence of agriculture over 20k years ago, what the actual fuck do you think would still be there? A rusted out Ford tractor?

    There's gonna be the same amount of evidence as for when I farted in 5th grade science class decades ago, that doesn't mean it didn't happen. It just means no evidence survived this long.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago* (4 children)

    Evidence of a stone hoe knapped at that time, like we have found everywhere that there was agriculture, would be a start. Evidence of some sort of tilling, which would still be there even if buried would be better. We have found neither.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    Thanks for trying to engage in a good-faith discussion here.

    I'd have thought the guy who said, "Archaeology exists, bro," would be interested in what archaeology is actually able to tell us.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago

    Thanks. I'm no where qualified to actually discuss archaeology as it is practiced, but there do seem to be a few common things found at ancient sites, mostly broken pottery and broken stone tools. I'm assuming because we had to make a lot of the things prior to discovering metalworking.

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  • [–] 0 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    We found a banana peel from last week, if bananas existed 100 years ago, the planet would be covered in ancient banana peels, hence we know bananas are at most a week old!

    Best of luck pal, but you're gonna have to find someone else now

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  • [–] 4 points 4 months ago (5 children)

    So… people that work the land know it’s obvious?

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  • [–] 7 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    You know, like the agrarian peoples worldwide who all independently figured this out almost immediately after starting agriculture....

    They're saying no farmers could have figured this out, because only farmers could...

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    as if by doing stuff, you figure stuff out about that stuff.

    I think critical thinking is the most endangered thing out there

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  • [–] 0 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    Definitely not.

    What would you observe? You plant the wheat where you always plant it, because it is the piece of land that you cleared from trees with hard work. You notice that the plants get worse from year to year.

    The first thing was that people started not to plant anything and used the field as meadow to put sheep, goats, or cows on it. Maybe just chicken, if push comes to shove. They do know that plants grow better in places where the animals fertilize the ground.

    This just lead to crop alternation: one year corn, one year grass.

    The relatively modern idea of rotating three different kinds of crops in a specific order came thousands(!) of years later.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago

    You know, people that work land have cleared the plants on that place specifically, because they know their soil.

    No one would waste effort testing if that’s a good patch of land.

    I’m sorry, I think we come from very different places of life, we might speak the same language, but you have theoretical, untested knowledge, and I’ve been down in the dirt a few too many years.

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  • [–] 5 points 4 months ago

    TBF to the people contradicting you: I think some peoples (sic) stuck to slash-and-burn for way too long. Certainly in Finland: lots of forest, few people.

    Maybe they even saw that other plants will grow on the abandoned fields but had no use for them. Maybe they even realized the potential for crop rotation but had no alternative crops to rotate with. Extreme poverty and the continuous need to get as much nutrition as possible from the ground might have been a factor.
    And remember, the potato is a fairly recent addition.

    Also, any form of agriculture is civilisation.

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  • [–] 5 points 4 months ago

    'Shrimp On A Treadmill'

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago
    [+] -25 points 4 months ago* (25 children)

    There is no air is space therefore the datacenters will not work. Uhg man these forums are like this too. The AI hate train is trying to hold back high performance computing from processing sensor data and streaming it back to earth.

    Honestly if anyone here thinks this is an exclusive or even mostly republican problem you're just dishonest. I know you can see your peers doing this and I know you are too bitch to call them out. Fuck you.

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  • [–] 4 points 4 months ago (9 children)

    Space is chock full of very hot dust. The data centers wouldn't be capable of cooling themselves. It would be nice if we used those resources to improve things, not litter the various orbital bands of The Earth, Moon, and Solar System.

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  • [–] -2 points 4 months ago (8 children)

    Historically investing in STEM has had tremendously positive effects for most everyone.

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  • [–] 3 points 4 months ago (7 children)

    Historically, STEM doesn't exist for the vast majority of that time. Historically wasting resources on pet projects of egomaniacs kills a ton of people needlessly.

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  • [–] -5 points 4 months ago (6 children)

    You don't know what historically means but don't worry you can just google it. And you are inserting elon musk to assault STEM that isn't cash money of you dude, that's a fuck you from me buddy.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (5 children)

    Lol. You either can't read, or assume everyone else's motives poorly. I didn't specify an egomanaiacle asshole, there are plenty to pick from. I have no issue with actual STEM. As a CS graduate, I do have an issue with dead-end hallucinating parrots eating trillions of dollars of resources that could have been used to feed, clothe, house, educate, and provide healthcare and a robust information network to all of humanity. Instead, around 2500 people are allowed to enact violence daily with their stupidity and egos.

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  • [–] -3 points 4 months ago (4 children)

    You can’t read, or assume everyone else’s motives poorly

    Now I would brand this as republican levels of self awareness. You know what is wrong you just said it, but then you proceed to do that exact thing.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago (3 children)

    Ad hominem. Thanks for conceding that you don't have an argument.

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  • [–] 0 points 4 months ago* (2 children)

    You can’t read, or assume everyone else’s motives poorly

    You know what is wrong you just said it, but then you proceed to do that exact thing.

    Or you do something, someone does it back and you cry like a bitch. Very republican of you.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 child)

    Quoting yourself is an interesting way to show something that I did, which so far hasn't happened. I haven't assumed anyone's motives, and have addressed every single thing you've said. You've resorted to goalpoast moving, switching topics, and ad hominem. My statement wasn't ad hominem, as it attacked the content of your comment, not you.

    Projection is a part of the Gaslight Obstruct Project party. I personally don't need someone to tell me who my friends are, that's why I am not a part of any party, and why I didn't rush in university.

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  • [–] 0 points 4 months ago

    Every accusation is a confession with you dude, and so you absolutely should feel personally attacked by me. Because I am not going to engage you genuinely, for obvious reasons. Bitch ass anti-science republican clown.

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  • [–] 3 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    ... do we a have a confidentlywrong lemmy comm yet?

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (11 children)

    This is a strawman argument.

    I've heard and considered several real, challenging barriers to putting data centers in space, but lack of air is not among them. Yet you've locked onto that one reason why everyone on lemmy who expresses disapproval for the idea must be wrong dumdums who are wrong, and therefore it's fine to just put data centers in space?

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  • [–] -1 points 4 months ago (10 children)

    How are you going to mention strawman argument and then go on to say

    and therefore it’s fine to just put data centers in space?

    Do you want genuine engagement was this an error on your part or are you trying to troll or make a joke or something?

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago (9 children)

    Are you not advocating for building data centers in space? But you're frustrated by "people all over lemmy screaming that because there's no air in space datacenters won't work up there."

    Isn't that the point of your OC?

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  • [–] 0 points 4 months ago (8 children)

    Advocating for no.

    You’re frustrated by “people all over lemmy screaming that because there’s no air in space datacenters won’t work up there.”

    Yep.

    Consider this: Do all the reasons for not putting a datacenter in space also apply to not putting a big ass telescope in space?

    If you can justify putting up an expensive telescope into space than you can also justify sending some high performance computing up there to process the sensor data on site. If you want to call your cluster of computers a datacenter go for it.

    If you think datacenters in space are a bad idea for AI and other services here on Earth well then you'd obviously be right but if you think it is because of no air yea we are back to square one ima call you a fuckwit.

    Now if you believe most space exploration is a waste of money and is just used for weapons development that would be noble, but still it's not a bad idea because there is no air in space. No one has used this argument just the air in space and expensive ones.

    I am not advocating anything for I am just not letting your draconian tribalistic bullshit peer pressure into agreeing with dumbass shit spill over onto science without some pushback.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago (7 children)

    But nobody in this thread is making that argument. You're being a total asshole and making personal attacks against other commenters, despite the fact that they don't bear any responsibility for that argument.

    Do all the reasons for not putting a datacenter in space also apply to not putting a big ass telescope in space?

    If you can justify putting up an expensive telescope into space than you can also justify sending some high performance computing up there to process the sensor data on site.

    What? No, they serve two totally different purposes and have significantly different requirements.

    I am just not letting your draconian tribalistic bullshit peer pressure into agreeing with dumbass shit spill over onto science without some pushback.

    Mine? Or "your" as in all of us on lemmy, which includes you? Again, nobody in this thread made that argument, nor defended it, nor defended any other commenters who did - and you're still acting like a complete dick about it.

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  • [–] 0 points 4 months ago* (6 children)

    What? No, they serve two totally different purposes and have significantly different requirements.

    We don't have eyeglasses on space based telescope guy there is no human up there looking through the telescope and writing down what they are finding.

    Mine? Or “your” as in all of us on lemmy, which includes you? Again, nobody in this thread made that argument, nor defended it, nor defended any other commenters who did - and you’re still acting like a complete dick about it.

    Yes YOUR tribalistic bullshit. You lying dog that is what this whole thread has been about it isn't my fault you didn't realise you were assaulting real science with your tribalism.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago (5 children)

    Ah, OK, I think I'm starting to understand the problem here.

    You lying dog

    What exactly do you believe I'm lying about? What evidence do you have that I'm lying?

    you were assaulting real science with your tribalism

    In what way am I assaulting science, or engaging in tribalism?

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  • [–] 0 points 4 months ago* (4 children)

    nobody in this thread made that argument, nor defended it, nor defended any other commenters who did

    Liar everyone in this thread made that argument including you it was the first thing you said. Apply that same logic to putting telescopes in space they aren't exactly the most efficient cost effective forms of science shit is difficult. Your entire reasoning that it is not cost effective and is difficult is anti-science. If you weren't being a tribalistic asshole you wouldn't care but because the AI is against your tribe and AI also happens to need datacenters you do care. I cared long before AI fuck you.

    Maybe you are under some impression that data is hoarded and not triaged. Onsite processing would be a leap in technology.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (3 children)

    Liar everyone in this thread made that argument including you it was the first thing you said.

    OK, quote me. Quote any of my comments in this thread where I argued that putting data centers in space is a bad idea because there is no air in space. Now who's lying?

    Apply that same logic to putting telescopes in space they aren’t exactly the most efficient cost effective forms of science shit is difficult.

    Putting telescopes in space solves a particularly difficult problem. Space telescopes have the advantage of missing that thing you keep hallucinating everyone here is arguing about - air. Because there's no atmospheric distortion, space telescopes are able to get images with orders of magnitude greater clarity. The heat dissipation problem is a tiny fraction compared to a data center, because there are (much) fewer components on a telescope that generate heat. The two things are not the same.

    When putting telescopes on earth, there is no way of dodging the fact that there is miles of atmosphere above it that cause distortion. There is no engineering around that. There are of course mitigations, but those are hurdles that are entirely skipped by putting them in space.

    Data centers have no such need. So what problem is solved by putting them in space? Why would you even want to? There are millions of square miles of earth to put them - where it would be much, much easier and cheaper to cool them, access them, power them, and maintain them.

    If you weren’t being a tribalistic asshole you wouldn’t care but because the AI is against your tribe and AI also happens to need datacenters you do care. I cared long before AI fuck you.

    Can you quote where I said anything about AI? What leads you to believe I am against AI, or data centers? The only thing I've argued against is putting data centers in space. You're the only one bringing up AI.

    It sure seems like you very desperately need to be a martyr, and that you need to see yourself as a champion for science when everyone around you is anti-science. That is not scientific, rational thinking. Taking the argument that "putting a data center in space is hard for many reasons" and reducing it to "we can't put data centers in space because there's no air" is dishonest. It's a straw man.

    This is now clearly a psychological issue with you, perhaps a psychiatric issue. You're angry, and you need to be angry and don't actually care what people are saying - you're going to argue against them because they must be anti-AI and anti-science.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago* (2 children)

    Buddy I conflated you with everyone else, your tribe. I am not going to study you and write you a personal essay get the fuck over yourself. You were part of the crowd take responsibility for being associated with them. And you're switching shit around I am just going to ignore that you loser.

    you very desperately need to be a martyr, and that you need to see yourself as a champion for science

    I eye fucked your intellectual identity and you took 10 hours to think of something this was it. I get it, it sounded big in your head but it's a little too big, I am arguing against you on lemmy lol

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  • [–] 0 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    Ok. I hope you get the help you need.

    You're clearly not willing to engage in rational discussion, but instead you're deliberately grouping everyone who disagrees with you into a single group, as if I was conspiring with other commenters just to fuck with you, and throwing personal attacks. You've made many unfounded assumptions about me, and are obviously going to continue doing so. You aren't really arguing so much as just insulting people. You've made 0 factual assertions and you've failed to respond to every one of my questions. Good luck.

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