Many international fans visiting the US for the World Cup have become frustrated by the culture of tipping servers, telling the BBC that tipping fatigue has set in.

England supporter Geoff Pryor said he understood tipping for good service, but he found it "weird" when buying a bottle of water and "they try to get a tip for doing nothing".

In the US, staff at some restaurants and bars are paid just over $2 (£1.50) an hour, and they expect customers to tip about 20% of the total cost of the bill so they can earn a living.

Frustrations have also been shared by hospitality staff, with one bar owner telling the BBC that many World Cup tourists have been bad tippers.

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[–] 76 points 4 months ago* (1 child)

Frustrations have also been shared by hospitality staff, with one bar owner telling the BBC that many World Cup tourists have been bad tippers.

Should read

Frustrations have also been shared by hospitality staff, with one bar owner telling the BBC that many World Cup tourists have been making staff aware that I and other businesses are bad employers.

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  • [–] 58 points 4 months ago (5 children)

    It is completely out of control. I have been asked to tip at self operated vending machines. WTF?

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  • [–] 60 points 4 months ago (3 children)

    That's because vending machines aren't actually paid at all and rely entirely on tips. Little known fact.

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  • [–] 3 points 4 months ago

    They're unconfigured PoS systems. Look at all the different PoS solutions out there. You never know where or when to tap your credit card, hit yes before or after the transaction is initiated. It's generally smaller vendors not configuring non-out-of-the-box solutions. Simple as that.

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  • [+] 41 points 4 months ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (3 children)
  • [–] 7 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    Aha, but the great old USA love to think it's a meritocracy, and since tipping is something that was originally merit based, it's a very American expression. You work a little harder, you get a little extra.

    But also, in a uniquely American way, capitalism turned tipping a moral dilemma.

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  • [–] 6 points 4 months ago

    Handouts are accepted based solely upon how much money you make.

    If you're poor? You're a leech on society.

    If you're rich? You clearly know money and you'll obviously invest that back into the economy and it'll trickle down to the poor people any minute now.

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  • [–] 182 points 4 months ago (6 children)

    Let's fix this headline.

    American's Confused By Fair Wage Practices of Civilized Countries

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  • [–] 11 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    Ci... Civ... Civ-il... Civil-i? Civil-iz? Civil rights? CIVIL RIGHTS COUNTRIES?! Does your country's ICE know about this???

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  • [–] 34 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (8 children)

    The price on the menu isn’t anywhere near the bill the expect you to pay at the end.

    Bill = menu-price + taxes + 20% tip

    (where 20% is just a rough average)

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  • [–] 29 points 4 months ago (7 children)

    These days I've seen people trying to push 30% to 40% as the minimum tip. Either that or they sneak it in with service charges or gratuity fees with a suggestion of a 25% tip on top.

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  • [–] 16 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    These days I've seen people trying to push 30% to 40% as the minimum tip.

    I’ve seen that, too, and it’s INCREDIBLY sleazy.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (3 children)

    Fuck that, those people are psychos. It's not going to catch on.

    [fetch.jpg]

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago* (2 children)

    Unfortunately it's catching on, and if you read half the comments here you will find people backing it up because the poor workers won't be paid any other way almost as if restaurant workers weren't paid another way in the past.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (1 child)

    Well I'm still gonna tip 20% and if they think that's not high enough then they can cry about it cause next time I'll tip them 15%.

    If they want 25% then they'd better give fucking exceptional service, and I don't just mean being polite yet insincere and using all the tired robotic phrases that they're programmed to do in OJT. I know "cookie-cutter waiter response" when I hear one.

    If they want higher than 25% then they can fucking blow me...

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago

    I'm still pinned at 15% although I mainly stay out of the country somewhere where tipping is what it used to be aka totally optional and highly appreciated. Tipping everywhere even 5% would be very strange behavior here.

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  • [–] 32 points 4 months ago (4 children)

    It's been known for some time that many of those from outside the US are unfamiliar with our tipping culture. I was a waiter in a nice restaurant in '96 when the Olympics were in Atlanta. We had lots of large parties that we added a 20% gratuity to, and clearly indicated on the check and no one complained. But normally the only place you encountered tipping then was in a sit-down restaurant with waiters. Now there's a thousand and one places where you're encouraged to tip. Even places where it's only counter service and you're supposed to put money in a tip jar when you pay the cashier. It's all over the place and it's completely ridiculous and out of hand. Americans hate it. It's no wonder our guests are confused and pissed off.

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  • [–] 8 points 4 months ago

    There are a few restaurants I have been to in the US that actually pay living wages and say tipping is optional. When the service is really good and you insist you want to tip they are generally over the moon.

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  • [–] -1 points 4 months ago

    I'm so torn about tipping culture, on the one hand it's bosses not paying workers as much as they deserve, on the other hand it's one job where workers can earn better than the cost of living doing a low skilled job. I also fully believe that anywhere there is a tip jar that gets pooled between workers there's someone in management skimming off the top.

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  • [+] -6 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    It's also got a lot to do with the fact that we're talking about selfish dipshits who are willing to give business to FIFA and American businesses when our country has a fascist administration, of course douchebags like that are going to whine about everything

    Tipping culture is obnoxious and needs to be dealt with at some point, but fuck these jerk ass tourist morons. Absolutely no solidarity to em.

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  • [–] 5 points 4 months ago

    I don't know if that really does make up the majority of who we're talking about here. There are many football fans who are in it for the love of the game and are there to support their country with friends and family in what may be a once-in-a-lifetime experience. Not all of us are as clued-in as you are.

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  • [–] 63 points 4 months ago

    We don’t pay our workers, lol. That’s on you!

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  • [–] 31 points 4 months ago

    Welcome to the wage slave states of America! Hopefully you get out before you find out how much I.C.E. costs here. Ha!

    Seriously don’t come here if you value your safety or your possessions.

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  • [–] 29 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    My favorite thing I saw recently in relation to tipping - was this sign at a restaurant about what the minimum wage was and encouraging tipping.

    I'm assuming that sign was put up or at least tacitly endorsed by the management.

    It's almost as if they don't have any agency over what they pay their own workers and they are then shaming customers into making up the difference? WTF?

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  • [–] 3 points 4 months ago*

    It's almost as if they don't have any agency over what they pay their own workers

    They kinda don't. To pay their workers an acceptable base wage, they'd have to raise their menu prices 20%. They can put up as many signs as they want explaining the prices, but customers are pretty bad at reading signs. Many, if not most, customers are just going to see the higher prices and go somewhere cheaper. It doesn't matter that the final price is the same, there's a reason the whole $X.99 is so prevalent, monkey brain see smaller number, think better value.

    It's kind of a game of chicken, any one individual business that tries to eliminate tipping is going to risk losing customers to competitors. This isn't really a problem that can be fixed at the individual business level, it would require legislation that forces all businesses to raise prices roughly the same amount at the same time.

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  • [–] 19 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    Im an American and I tip because it's how servers get paid in the US.

    I've also been to other countries where restaurants just, ya know, pay their employees.

    It's not complicated. Just give your employees money in exchange for their labor. Somehow other countries just pay their employees and amazingly they still have restaurants and bars.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago

    That's how they get paid but that's also how they are extorted on every service and that's another way to evade taxes.

    Because of that US tiping isn't culture, is a crime. At least in the EU.

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  • [–] 16 points 4 months ago

    This is why no one should ever visit the States for holidays. Lots of better countries to go that don't have this bullshit.

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  • [–] 79 points 4 months ago* (4 children)

    Well if you travel to the US for the World Cup you're either ignorant as fuck or you like the direction they're going and want to sponsor it.

    You chose to go. Stay and suffer or leave and get better.

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  • [+] -7 points 4 months ago (3 children)
  • [–] 26 points 4 months ago (4 children)

    Tipping culture is getting crazy.

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  • [–] 14 points 4 months ago (3 children)

    It’s gotten out of hand. I ordered winter boots via an online shoe store and the check-out prompt asked if I would like to tip. There’s a tip prompt when I buy a container of carrot sticks at the roadside convenience store.

    I would love to do away with the awkward conversations about what I’m doing next while using the point of sale terminal at restaurants. The ritual of annoying small talk in the hope that I select 20% for a tip is tiresome.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (2 children)

    For some weird reason I read that whole post in the voice of the woman that does the virgin adverts in the UK.

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  • [–] 32 points 4 months ago (14 children)

    Don't worry American citizens are also confused by the expensive tipping culture in the US. I still maintain 15% for a good job, 10% for a mediocre job, 5% for anything below. Giving above 15% is just subsidizing the pay the employer should be giving. It's a symptom of the fact that wages have stagnated for over 50 years. The pay that once supported someone and even a child is now far below the poverty line for even an individual. So instead of increasing pay to match what it once was many businesses have turned to aggressive tipping over just increasing the prices of their service / products.

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  • [–] 13 points 4 months ago (12 children)

    Talking about restaurant dining only... My baseline is 20%. Higher for breakfast and/or a great job. Shave some off for truly bad experiences.

    I 100% agree that servers should be paid a full living wage before tips. But the truth is, they survive entirely on their tips. Not tipping over 15% isn't sending a message to the employer or the industry. The only person that is impacting is your server who probably doesn't even get to keep 100% of what you leave and makes an hourly rate that's probably 50% or lower of the minimum wage.

    My hometown has a lot of restaurants and a few years back had a measure on the ballot to ensure that servers were actually paid the full hourly minimum wage by their employer. Somehow, the servers were convinced that it would be a bad thing and were against it. The measure failed.

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  • [–] 6 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    Somehow, the servers were convinced that it would be a bad thing and were against it. The measure failed.

    Same reason some workers are against unions. They've been deluded by corporate propaganda.

    I've heard "But i make so much money in tips!" so many times. Then don't fucking complain whenever you get a slow day when you don't even make enough to pay for the gas it took to get you there and back!

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  • [–] 9 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (3 children)

    I have to put my money where my mouth is. Generally speaking i have decreased eating out and generally avoid dining in locations where tipping is customary. I absolutely avoid like the plague locations that automatically suggest the minimum tip should be 20%+. That said even the completely automated car wash down the way asks if I want to tip now so I have doubts that tips go to that individual worker or to the workers at all in every circumstance.

    If everyone behaved the same then this culture of businesses offloading their employees income directly onto individuals would end very quickly. Tipping wasn't always like this, the tip used to just be a little extra people gave sometimes and now it's been weaponized by unscrupulous business owners.

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  • [–] -2 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    Avoiding eating out is how you put your money where your mouth is. If your impact truly matters, that's how the restaurant owners/investors will see it.

    As much as I don't like it, 20% is now the standard for tipping. Anything less than that you're sending a message, but the only possible interpretation of that message is that you don't like the service. There's no method for delivering your individual feelings about tipping culture through tipping less than everyone around you. There's no form on the receipt that gets collated and presented to decision makers.

    In reality the only person you're harming in tipping under 20% is the server. Either they're taking home less money and nobody notices, or somebody is paying attention to how much each server is getting tipped and you just gave them a bad mark that management sees.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago

    Society as a whole reducing or no longer tipping would make a big impact. My current State requires wait staff to be paid at the same standard state minimum all other positions have to. The employer has to make up wages to at least State minimum in one's that don't. Which is what the majority of the kitchen and bussers make. If servers are not getting Far better than minimum (at least at the dozens of chain restaurants I've worked at) they quit.

    Boy though, would the transition (were it to occur) suuuuck for a lot of folks. So I don't even pretend to know the best way to start.

    Should servers make more on average than cooks (who are responsiblefor both the taste and cleanliness of your food)? Probably an entirely different discussion.

    Should a restaurant pay all workers a fair wage or go out of business because they rely on patrons to make up for their shiity pay hierarchy? I say yes.

    I will also say, there is a difference between a chain restaurant and a local owned establishment. (Insert chain restaurant here) wants me to tip their servers 20% for a subpar service, just because it's expected? ... they can go suck socks. They can much better afford to pay each server that extra 20% than I. Aunt Margie's diner, who always has good food and what appears to be genuinely attentive and kind staff? Absofuckinglutely.

    Side note. This is also why I always bring cash for tips, that way the server can opt to disclose what they wish. A real tip, in a fair world, imho, should be just for them. No taxes, no payroll accountancy.

    ....that got... long. Uhhh thanks for coming to my Ted talk?

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  • [–] 3 points 4 months ago (5 children)

    makes an hourly rate that's probably 50% or lower of the minimum wage

    Illegal everywhere in the USA. It is federal law that tipped wage workers must be paid the difference up to minimum wage if tips did not cover that gap.

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  • [–] 3 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    I mean, yeah, but federal minimum wage is only $7.50 an hour. Hardly a livable wage anywhere in the country. The minimum for tipped workers in this town is $6.50 an hour. So at most an employer would need to cover $40 a week under that law.

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  • [–] 3 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    And almost impossible to sue over and get paid not to mention servers don't have the money for confronting their bosses but sure make excuses for the blatant exploitation.

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  • [–] -1 points 4 months ago

    You don't need to sue. A couple people with paystubs can file a complaint with the state DoL and they'll investigate.

    Of course this varies by state and will take months, but it's not like you have to pay to retain a lawyer.

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  • [+] 18 points 4 months ago (1 child)
  • [–] 10 points 4 months ago (13 children)

    A very simple solution is for restaurants to offer a second all-inclusive version of the menu with taxes and suggested tipping included in the prices. Can't cost more than a half hour of work and the price of ten printed pieces of paper.

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  • [–] 5 points 4 months ago (10 children)

    So if you order from the all inclusive menu you are served by a different server who is paid properly?

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  • [–] 5 points 4 months ago* (7 children)

    What I'm saying is just take the existing price, add the sales tax, add a 15% tip, and show the resulting price to the tourists. Same result, less head math for the tourists.

    If you want proper wages for workers, you need unionization.

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  • [–] 6 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    When I was in the US it was just confusing sometimes. Like I went to this restaurant to order a pizza, to-go. They had a sign outside and the pizza was like 18 dollars, but when you want to pay its more because of tax, and now they also expected a tip. Ok but it's to go right? So you also tip when getting groceries? The entire system just felt very arbitrary.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (4 children)

    or how about fuck off with the tips and just pay employees a living wage. I the customer shouldn't have to cover the gap in your employees wage.

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  • [–] 0 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    You do realize the customer would pay either way. The prices will just go up to pay those wages (and now you also owe double taxes on it; both the sales taxes and the income taxes will get made up for on the top.)

    Most 'good' restaurants will likely go to a commission based model, where that same 20% of sales goes to the waiter, but is included in the price, since tips are what motivate servers to upsell. 20% of $150 is beter than 20% of $100.

    Without it theres no point in going out of your way to offer an appetizer or cocktail while they wait for the food, since its just creating more work for the same $/hr. Now the restaurant needs to raise prices even more to keep afloat, since sales are down.

    And if they do go to commission, now the only thing thats changed is the servers motivation towards the guest. After everything is rung in, they've got their 20%; unless theres another sale to be made (a new cocktail, dessert, etc) theres no motivation to check back in until its time to drop the check. Because thats why tips are discretionary: to disincentivize poor service.

    Ive seen it pretty much every way. I used to work at a country club that paid high hourly. Ive also been at a hotel where everything was auto grated.

    Ive also noticed it traveling in europe. Id find myself deciding between dining in more touristy or more authentic spots depending on the level of care I wanted. Do i go to the bistro, where i wont get a chance to order a second coffee, and no one's going to refill my water for the hour and a half im sitting for lunch, before someone finally makes eye contact and I can get my check, or do I go to the place in the tourist spot, where ill get everything I need and be out in 45 minutes, because they know I'm a tourist from a tipping country.

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  • [–] 0 points 4 months ago

    then you know what happens if they raise prices? exactly what's happening now post-pandemic and dumpy trumps illegal tariffs: less people go out to eat and the restaurants FAIL. if you can't afford to pay your employees a fair wage, then your business doesn't deserve to be in business.

    i i wanted an appetizer id order one, i don't need to person to upsell me food. i don't need ANY worker to upsell me anything. upselling can also fuck off. i don't need any worker to fucking work on commission, that shit can also fuck off. all these shitty tactics to get workers to needlessly sell their souls to squeeze more money out of hard working people can fuck right off. I'm sick of it. NO. pay your workers fairly, stop fucking around with peoples lives, sell a GOOD product, and you'll make the money you want.

    stop with the deep throating these fucking billionaires excuses for legalized slavery.

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  • [–] 0 points 4 months ago

    also you talk about prices going up if they are forced to pay their servers correctly. guess what bud fucking prices have skyrocketed already without them to pay servers properly. and in other first world countries, like in Europe, restaurant food is cheap and they pay their employees a living wage. it's not that north America restaurants can't, it's that they don't want to and basically want slaves

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  • [–] -2 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    Same server, but now they get a commission on that check instead of a tip. They get the same 20%, but you now pay an extra 10% in taxes on the higher bill. And youre now their lowest priority table after ordering, because the commission is already locked in

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  • [–] 16 points 4 months ago (16 children)

    Fuck this is a difficult one.

    Tipping culture is a throwback to slavery times and is very typical of the predatory nature that exists within employment in the US. The position that customers need to pay a tip because the server needs a liveable wage that isn’t covered by employers and built into law is essentially being held hostage due to an unfair system.

    That said, waitstaff depend on this for a liveable wage and by not paying the tip, you’re denying that worker fair income. It’s not their fault directly, it’s the system they are under.

    Looking from the outside, it comes back to the same thing; the reluctance of Americans to engage in building a decent society by collectively voting to build that, rather than voting or even not voting at all to take care of themselves. Again, it’s another case of ‘you get out what you put in’. A 60% voter turnout reflects the quality of what’s been elected and makes it easy for bad actors to get what they want, especially when their base does turn out.

    To get those things, they need to at least vote and vote for people who will give them the things they want like legislated, decent wages. Sometimes it also means some hardship or compromise. Here, that means wait staff would be giving up the potential of big tips for the benefit of decent wages and perhaps healthcare.

    Personally? Of course I’d tip them; I’m in Rome so I’d do as the Romans do and I’m aware that's their income. I’d also feel like I was held hostage by a shithouse, predatory system brought about by Americans lack of care for their own people though.

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  • [–] 6 points 4 months ago (6 children)

    So anyone who is underpaid at work should ask customers to pay extra instead of taking it up with their boss? Should grocery store staff start spitting in people's food if customers dont hand over 20% more money at the checkout?

    I'm all for supporting workers and i begrudgingly tip in our broken system most of the time... but i cant stand the entitlement of service staff who get pissed about bad tippers... take it up with your boss...

    This is just the rich business owners (who are underpaying their staff) dividing the working class by framing this as the fault of the customer (typically also working class people...)

    So now waitstaff are complaining about bad tippers and fighting other workers rather than focusing on the real problem.

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  • [–] 8 points 4 months ago (5 children)

    It's been pointed out to me a few times recently that a lot of hospitality staff don't actually want the system to change as they usually don't declare their full income from the tips to the taxman.

    If they unionise and change things, their whole income becomes taxable, and they feel that they lose.

    This seriously undermines the sympathy I have for the staff as a group. The tools for change are right there, but there are enough bootlickers and foolish individualists to poison any attempt at change short of a general strike. (I'm under no illusions as to the inevitable violent government response to such a thing either.)

    Ultimately it comes down to; "Either change your system with group action, like everywhere else did, or keep whining about getting stiffed, your choice."

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago

    It’s been pointed out to me a few times recently that a lot of hospitality staff don’t actually want the system to change as they usually don’t declare their full income from the tips to the taxman.

    While this is true amongst some, it's again that minority that finds the really nice places to work.

    I've done waiter at a tex mex place, my current coworker the same, we talk about the bullshit one has to jump through to be able to pay rent. Working multiple jobs to make ends meet for a job that cuts your hours or has you work a double without any forwarning.

    And when it comes to the group action, unfortunately wait staff at the shittiest of places still exist because someone needs money to survive. And if you can get out of the hellhole to a real job, you do it the first chance you can. Doesn't really give enough time to create group action.

    I don't have an answer for it, we should get rid of tipping. I don't eat out really at all, that's my fix. But I'm far far out of the restaurant business now and if I'm back in it then my life has gone absolutely horribly wrong.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago (3 children)

    Servers in America can work 20-30 hours a week and pretty easily make 40-50 dollars an hour. Very few restaurants can afford to pay their staff that much. These servers aren’t making 5 dollars an hour like everyone thinks. I personally think the most messed up thing about the restaurant industry is the cooks make the least amount of money out of everyone. Sysco reps, delivery drivers, servers, bartenders, owners, they all profit off of the kitchen.

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  • [–] 6 points 4 months ago (8 children)

    I’m in Rome so I’d do as the Romans

    You'd own and rape slaves too?

    No? So there is a Rubikon that you don't cross after all?

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  • [–] 8 points 4 months ago (3 children)

    If I was a tourist in Rome, and the only currency was raping a slave then i wouldn't visit rome. But if I was visiting Rome and knew that the people serving me food needed to be paid directly because they would otherwise starve and become destitute then i would pay the Roman workers directly as is the custom of Rome.

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  • [–] -2 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    If they would starve when we don't give them handouts, they should riot and change the system. Not blame tourists.

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  • [–] 6 points 4 months ago

    Easy as hell to say when you don't say to do it yourself. Revolution is bloody and things more often than not end up worse after. Especially with how heavily armed US police forces are

    Only the naive would think that a mass riot would somehow make things better.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (2 children)

    Yeah and it's much closer to "I'll pay a little more to make sure that person can afford to eat today" than, "owning and raping slaves".

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (1 child)

    The point of that argument is to give an example on why the other argument does not make sense.

    "When in Rome, do as the Romans" is bullshit. No matter the context.

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  • [–] 3 points 4 months ago

    Well, no, don't go crazy here. Changing some of the behaviour is okay. For example, when I visit foreign countries I try to greet people in their native tongue. When in Brasil during the Carnival I dance on the streets, in Germany in October observe Oktoberfest, when in Zurich on weekend snort cocaine, you know - harmless stuff ;-)

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