It's not fun interacting with them when they often want to engage in ad hominems. This is why I have no interest in the tankie triad.

Interviewer: You Think The Lemmy Devs Are Tankies? Joker: I Do And I'm Tired of Pretending They're Not
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[–] 55 points 1 year ago (219 children)

It's not fun interacting with them

Semi related: Something weird has been going on at dbzer0 yesterday and today. They are not normally tankies, they always seemed like they were just kind of sensible and doing their own thing, but since the time of the "pro AI" vs "anti AI" thing they now seem to have declared absolute scorched earth war on "the liberals" in the same way that the triad always has.

It's like all the issues all of a sudden came out at once. The Dragonfucker argument is back, someone has been following me around all day and hectoring me on random topics and just told me UniversalMonk did nothing wrong, they all of a sudden hate PugJesus with a hundreds-of-comments-wild-personal-attacks passion, the "anti-AI troll" banning random people mod is now posting tankie stuff... it's fuckin' nuts. It came out of nowhere.

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  • [–] 9 points 1 year ago (32 children)

    Why yes, we do tolerate people badmouthing Ada, dessalines, nutomic, and even our own admins. Hell I've personally tolerated dozens of angry hexbears trying to bully myself in my own thread in my own comm. We do indeed walk the walk.

    There's no "tribalism" here, no matter how much you keep repeating it. In all honestly it reads to me you're more upset people are not sufficiently polite in disagreement. Anarchists can and will be rude, especially towards people like PJ routinely but politely calling them "nazis" for not engaging in the electoralism farce. Nobody is under any onus to remain polite to spare your feelings, nor does this make is a "tribe" because we tend to attract anarchists who feel the same way about liberals.

    Fuck I don't even know at this point what your problem even is, that we attract like-minded people in our instance? We don't want to be lemmy.world for a reason and if you want that, well lemmy.world already exists.

    Seriously, We're not going to go around policing people for rudeness. This is absurd and will not work whatsoever.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago* (28 children)

    SoftestSapphic from https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/modlog/961853 (also snoogums)

    You probably are not aware, but that user is known to be toxic. A lot of the mod action reasons are "be respectful" or "civility"

    https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/modlog?userId=18071443

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago* (26 children)

    Edit: Also, there's a difference between expressing low opinions about someone and directly insulting them.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago (24 children)

    I don’t want to have this whole ridiculous debate again. I feel stupid even touching on it to this extent, I just wanted to give you that relevant context. You’re literally celebrating the dbzer0 admins for banning a trans person for trying to voice her objection to the performative and stupid way that trans issues are handled in some segments of Lemmy. In my world, she should be allowed to say that. In yours and dbzer0’s, apparently she should not, because db0 is the arbiter of whether trans issues are being handled correctly, and she is not, and she needs to obey their instructions for what she can and can’t speak up on.

    The majority of the users of Blahaj are trans too.

    I remember his username and him being a twat

    PJ himself admitted that being correct

    I mean tbf both of those are at least true

    https://lemmy.world/comment/18435763

    On top of that, the community is called !yepowertrippinbastards@lemmy.dbzer0.com, having this kind of statements regarding the reported power tripping mod is as old as the community.

    When you look at the recent thread about JordanLund (https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/48096338), you see things like

    It’s been a couple of weeks since @jordanlund@lemmy.world was in here defending genocide. I almost missed the ugly fucking zio. Automatic PTB for anything he touches with his scummy little fingers.

    You commented below it without seeing any issue.

    I’ll happily advocate for the Palestinians’ rights to kill as many of the IDF as they can manage. It won’t solve their problems, but they’ve got every right to do it, and nothing else that I can see will solve any of their problems other than better leadership in the US.

    I think you’ve probably understood me pretty well, what you decide about me is up to you just like it is for everyone else.

    Don’t go to lemmy.world, it’s a silly place, for this among some other reasons.

    https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/48096338/19830549

    What has changed since then?

    Honestly I thought you were smart and well-meaning, just kind of focused on growth of the community and creating positive things. The more I am looking into how dbzer0 does things, the more I think lumping them in with the tankie instances with their admin behavior fits pretty well, and I have no idea why you’re bending over backwards so far to defend them.

    As I mentioned in a previous comment you never replied to (https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/49728632/20305246)

    I'm am going to be honest with you, I didn't expect you to make this kind of comments

    Cool! Now accuse him of caring way too much about politics, and getting in heated debates about it like a LOSER, speaking as you are from your lemmy.ml address. That’ll make perfect sense too.

    Also, not sure why it’s not okay for dbzer0 to have a “our users” stance while you broadly categorize all .ml users as “losers”

    You are scrutinizing all dbzer0 mod actions to put them in the worst way possible, while nothing is new:

    • YPTB has always had some aggressive comments towards the reported power tripper
    • The dbzer0 stance on the drag matter is known, nothing new here
    • the pro / anti AI seems to be dbzer0 mods banning people who downvote their content on their communities, seems quite common across the platform

    If !yepowertrippinbastards@lemmy.dbzer0.com seems too oriented for you, feel free to reanimate !modabuse@lemmy.sdf.org or create another community. That would be interesting, to be honest.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (22 children)

    I wasn’t implying people who care about politics on whatever side are losers. I was saying that people are accusing PugJesus of being a loser because he cares and argues about politics, and lemmy.ml is the glassiest of glass houses as far as that accusation.

    Ok, that makes more sense.

    I did think about “migrating” to some other place for the topics I care about that have communities like YPTB on dbzer0, but just like in the 196 case, it doesn’t really work entirely that way, and anyway if they continue to let me say what I want to say in YPTB, I probably won’t really care beyond just voicing my opinion on it all.

    It's up to you. I think it would be good to have another !yptb community that's not satire or a one person creation.

    You could potentially enforce more respectful discussions there.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago*

    Probably x)

    Edit: just because you care about trans people

    In addition to simply brigading my communities I have had people harass me in DMs, make death threats towards me, and make fun of me for being a recovering alcoholic. I’ve had these people deny my gender identity, claim I’m a woman, deliberately use the wrong pronouns, and even one person impersonating me while acting like a pig. Really vile stuff.

    In short these are not knee jerk reactions, the vast majority of the bans I cast are for good reasons, and while I have made mistakes on occasion, the majority of these bans are correct, and I don’t believe we should be forced to allow known problematic users to hurt our communities just because they haven’t left comments there yet.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (7 children)

    I think the modlogs 100% speak for themselves

    It all goes down to the drag issue in the end.

    Either you think neopronouns are a right (Blahaj, dbzer0) and cannot be removed under any pretext.

    Either you think neopronouns can be considered trolling under certain circumstances (LW apparently?)

    By the way, you said in a previous comment (https://quokk.au/comment/661634)

    Pretending that being trans is equivalent to being a dragon (along with things like encouraging other users to self-harm, because of course this person did, because they are a troll and trying to be cruel to trans people) was the issue.

    Drag got banned when drag encouraged people to self harm. The neopronoun thing was a separate matter (see above)

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago

    Exactly this. Xenopronouns are just as valid as any other pronoun. PJ and Philip seem to be mostly ok with "traditional" (lol) trans pronouns like "xir/xe" or "they/them" so they think they are good trans allies. But they are only allies to certain types of "mainstream" trans folks. Because everything has to be mainstream before a Democrat will ever consider supporting it, in my experience. The moment the pronouns get "too weird" they all start freaking out. Xenopronouns? Forget about it! I've even seen it argued that xenopronouns are anti-trans (somehow)? Who knows, but it seems there's a bunch of LW folks who seem to be that its fine to hate on folks who use them.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 child)

    Ok basically your argument devolves to misrepresenting and trivializing why we took any admin actions. I think you're being massively disingenuous and not worth it discussing with at this point, but I'll repeat, if our instance members think we're as hypocritical as you do, they're welcome to open the relevant governance posts and reign us in. It won't happen, cause we aren't of course.

    Anyway I won't bother with this thread anymore. I have no patience for people who misrepresent the facts quite that much just to win internet arguments.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    Why not use !modabuse@lemmy.sdf.org or whatever other secondary ypt community there is?

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  • [–] 10 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (77 children)

    I think Philip was referring to the venom and hostility on display from some lately. I said something similar to pug last night. To be clear it isn't you or anything you've done.

    And I fully understand the recoiling at some of the hyper reflexive venom on display from a few when anything regarding AI is brought up. It's a tool, and neither good or bad on its own. But some squeal like drama queens if you even bring it up.

    Conversely the other day I had someone from your instance call me, someone who would at least be a syndicist a shit-lib. Because I made a point of calling for solidarity and mutual aid, pointing out that our failures to do so are part of what has led us to the current points of crisis we find ourselves in. I had a bit of a chuckle at the tanky talk. But it wasn't something completely isolated. Though again I'm gonna reiterate. None of this involves you. And you aren't their keeper. They are adults who can make their own decisions and mistakes.

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  • [–] 11 points 1 year ago* (76 children)

    Ye, we obviously can have some acerbic users as well, can't avoid it 12k registrations. But if someone is too toxic consistently, we tend to get rid of them. Still doesn't make the instance tankie thought 😅

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Oh for sure. I know I can be a handful myself, as can pug. Generally on the whole though. It's not been the experience I've had with the instance. But it has been something that oddly has come up a number of times lately. Quite honestly I think current events are really testing and breaking a lot of people.

    Sadly the horrors are only getting started. Things are going to get so much worse.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (52 children)

    Anyone solid in our instance can request an admin recall with a vote

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  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago* (50 children)

    You'd prefer that one person decide by fiat what's OK or not? I don't know about you but I find democracy superior to dictatorship, even when nominally "benevolent" .

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  • [–] 9 points 1 year ago (21 children)

    How about denial of UN-verified sexual assault because it happened against Bad Camp?

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (6 children)

    Can you go into detail about what 'Israel greatly exaggerates' means exactly?

    Since according to that article, it seems to imply that it was an individual's mistake as opposed to Israel.

    Otmazgin said it has been difficult to rein Landau in, both because he vehemently believes in his version and because there is no way to stop journalists from engaging with him directly. Both Otmazgin and Bukjin attributed Landau’s continued belief in the false account to him having been deeply traumatized by what he saw in the aftermath of Oct. 7.

    Furthermore, it was Israeli government agencies that disputed the claims made by these two individuals. So, I don't see how Israel can greatly exaggerate the claims while also disputing them -- it just doesn't make sense.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago* (5 children)

    You don't see how they could because you don't understand propaganda. By promoting the fictional stories, including the false accounts of rape and the baby in the oven and other blatantly false stories they can fall back on the ones that did happen, but the false stories will stick in people's minds. How long has the old 'human shields' chestnut been used to excuse civlian deaths in hospitals and homes of Palestians? How many times has Israel blamed someone else when they shoot into crowds trying to get food? The lies stuck with the general population as long as they are able to get out first as kong as there is one true case that ends up proving the lies could possibly be plausible.

    People remember what they want to remember, including made up exaggerations intended to dehumanize others of things that actually happened.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (4 children)

    Do you think there is Palestinian propaganda as well?

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  • [–] 12 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    https://press.un.org/en/2024/sc15621.doc.htm

    I've read the whole report, that's a short summary created by the UN investigators. Basic TL;DR of the whole situation:

    • Rape of Israeli women by people invading on October 7th was widespread
    • The report stops short of claiming it was done by "Hamas" or in any systematized or sanctioned fashion. A lot of people who took part in the attack were not Hamas, and it was totally impossible to sort out which specific person had done any specific attack, so they didn't make that claim. It happened a lot though.
    • The Israeli government and the New York Times both lied about some specific instances of rape, just because it's in both of their DNA to make up pro-Israel bullshit. The investigators who made the report debunked some of the Israeli government's claims, which was easy, and based their findings mostly on objective evidence instead of what anyone from Israel told them.

    That's the short version. Various people have seized on point #2 or point #3 to claim that point #1 didn't happen, but it did.

    Also, I think that some people on Lemmy love bringing this up, because it winds up painting anyone who cares about the truth into the "pro-Israel" side of the debate, and then they can call them a Zionist.

    Anyway, yes, the people who did October 7th definitely raped a lot of people. It doesn't mean Israel should be committing a genocide. If it helps clarify things, the Israeli government has been facilitating aid for Hamas for years because they love having things like October 7th happen and give them excuses, and they love when Hamas rapes people or takes hostages, for the same reason. They wish it would happen every day, and so then they could talk about it and pretend even harder that shooting little kids in the groin or starving entire families to death is totally justified.

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  • [–] 11 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    Multithread crashout with enough paragraphs typed to fill a novella. This level of drama might be peak Lemmy thought crime policing. Peak liberal vs tankie on a topic unrelated to it. This thread (an argument loadstone which was irresistible) and the time ya'll have spent in is incredible. That's just imo, of course.

    But keep going, I'm loving reading all this!

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  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago* (8 children)

    What did he accuse you of doing?

    Edit: Wait. How did PugJesus ban your account?

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  • [–] 11 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (11 children)

    It’s like all the issues all of a sudden came out at once. The Dragonfucker argument is back, someone has been following me around all day and hectoring me on random topics and just told me UniversalMonk did nothing wrong, they all of a sudden hate PugJesus with a hundreds-of-comments-wild-personal-attacks passion, the “anti-AI troll” banning random people mod is now posting tankie stuff… it’s fuckin’ nuts. It came out of nowhere.

    At least the drag and PugJesus issues are related, as that's why PJ got banned on Blahaj: https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/39039162

    I pointed this out to you in the !fediverselore@lemmy.ca thread and you acknowledged it: https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/49571446/20253309

    Not sure why you're saying it's coming out of nowhere when you are aware of that link.

    People aren't following you around, they reply to comments you make about the whole situation

    The "anti-AI troll" come up due to this comment: https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/49571446/20270123

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (8 children)

    People can use whatever pronouns they want and anyone pitching a fit about it are the ones who deserve scrutiny as far as I'm concerned.

    Drag always rubbed me the wrong way, always ready to jump right to calling people tankies without much interesting conversation to be had.

    If someone is trolling I'm going to ban them when they violate an actual rule, like telling people to kys, because anything else opens up the field for people like Pug to declare who is and isn't trans based on if they like their pronoun choice.

    Responding to PugJesus below me as I can't interact due to their ban:

    From my POV, you are pitching a fit over the pronouns by harping on about 'not believing dragons are real' - heres an example of you misgendering with 'his' while doing so. That invites extra scrutiny.

    in this thread the person was banned for saying "I don't think it's an unfair line to draw. We draw it at what's real and what's not. Gender as a spectrum is real."

    you replied in one comment saying

    … transphobia is when you don’t believe in dragons?

    How curious.

    What I conclude from this:

    When you are talking about belief in dragons what you are really doing is using that in as a stand-in to say ' only genders that are 'real' are acceptable to use'. That is gatekeeping.

    here you are doing it he same routine to a trans woman in that same thread. You called her a child and insane for saying 'you don't get to question someone's identity'.

    I don't believe in any magical creatures, but drag and anyone else should be able to use whatever pronouns they want because fuck gender.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (2 children)

    Exist in what sense?

    In the sense of existing in the real world.

    If the former, why do you not take issue with singular they?

    Why on earth would I take issue with a grammatical usage case that predates Shakespeare?

    Would you argue there are no people who genuinely use “dragon” as their pronoun?

    Why would calling themselves something and asking others to call them something inherently make them something a human being literally cannot be on account of it being a fantasy creature?

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

    Words are defined and redefined based on their real world usage, so if there were enough people describing themselves as dragons, the definition could be updated to account for that. Denying or ridiculing novelty or unorthodoxy would hamper progress in any movement, be it for religious freedoms or trans rights.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

    At the same time that doesn't give carte blanche for any word to mean anything. I could start using the word 'conservative' to mean 'socialist', but it would be ridiculous for me to attempt to force others to maintain that same usage, or even force them to acknowledge the usage's validity. The fluidity of language is not an argument for absolutist individualist interpretations of language, which is nothing less than an argument for the ultimate incoherence of language. Language changes with mass usage, not automatically with individual usage.

    Language is a form of communication first, and ornamentation second, not vice-versa.

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  • [–] 17 points 1 year ago (8 children)

    Tbh, dbzer0 was always kind of sus to me

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  • [–] 13 points 1 year ago

    It sounds like you think Anarchism is the lack of a government. It isn't. It's the lack of hierarchy. Government is still possible, and arguably required.

    I don't think it's Anarchists who don't know what they're talking about.

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  • [–] 9 points 1 year ago

    Ask a group of anarchists...

    Well yes of course, because "anarchism" is a very broad term that covers a lot of different ideologies. Two persons that both might say they are "anarchists" could disagree on a whole lot.

    Maybe you should think a bit more complexly about what anarchism is (though I'm not trying to excuse any bad behaving instances out there).

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  • [–] 16 points 1 year ago*

    Yes, yes it's the anarchists that haven't given any thought to their political beliefs. Not like the super smart Giga Chad Galaxy brained geniuses. That keep making overcomplicated centralized unanswerable structures of power. And then shrugging confused every time it turns against them. Because as we all know doing the same thing over and over expecting a different outcome is brilliance.

    Tap for spoiler

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago*

    Every ideology exists on some kind of spectrum. As far as I can tell, pure capitalism, pure communism, and pure anarchism all bring significant problems when you try to apply them that are unique to their own strengths and weaknesses. You have to work things out and use common sense. But, talking about political philosophy and trying new principles for governance can still be a good thing, even if the as-described form is often a failure if people try to apply it in a way that is "pure" ideologically.

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