Realization [PizzaCake] (sh.itjust.works)
submitted 1 month ago by to c/comicstrips@lemmy.world
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[+] -38 points 1 month ago (20 children)
  • [–] 32 points 1 month ago (14 children)

    Just so you know where the downvotes and hate are coming from; and for anyone else who doesn't understand either: "consenting while drunk" is not consent. There's no 'regret it later', since there wasn't consent - it's more like 'feel regret after becoming aware of it', but even regret is the wrong word. disgusted, violated, furious.

    I don't have immediate access to the evidence, but my understanding is that these men and/or their accomplices intentionally got this woman too drunk to resist. She was unable to competently say yes, but she was also unable to competently say no.

    If you think of this and other rape cases stemming from 'they were drunk and regretted it later' situations as the fault of the drunk person, please go educate yourself about consent and why being intoxicated precludes it.

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  • [–] [S] 24 points 1 month ago (1 child)

    I don’t have immediate access to the evidence, but my understanding is that these men and/or their accomplices intentionally got this woman too drunk to resist. She was unable to competently say yes, but she was also unable to competently say no.

    Close, they were feeding her ketamine.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 child)

    That's not a good article on alcohol and consent. This is not true. Here's a better write up on the subject.

    https://bwell.brown.edu/resource/substances-and-consent

    Kind of harmful to spread honestly. This is the kind of misinformation that showed up in consent talks 10-15 years ago. It really should be treated with the nuance the subject deserves so people are properly educated.

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  • [+] -7 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (9 children)

    I don't know for sure what the facts here were. If she was unable to say yes/no than that is obviously rape. My understanding was that she was able to and did say no to some things (which the guys then did not do) and agreed to others. According to her own statement to the police, which seemed trustworthy to me. If that is what happened, I don't see how it was rape. If something else happened, than it could be rape.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    The police did a poor investigation including not seizing phones, and her statement is lacking detail. As per her statement there's big memory gaps... you don't know that she was conscious the entire time. There's also the snapchat offering her as "free pussy" which even the men haven't said she agreed to. There's multiple men, she was outnumbered and heavily under the influence... Consent has to be freely given

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  • [–] 0 points 1 month ago* (1 child)

    you don't know that she was conscious the entire time.

    I don't. I never claimed I do. But I also don't tend to say people are criminals based on things that could have happened but I don't know if happened. I made it clear what facts I was assuming.

    There's also the snapchat offering her as "free pussy" which even the men haven't said she agreed to.

    I didn't read about this. If there were explicit images of her taken or distributed without consent, that is a crime. Not rape, but a reprehensible crime that they should be imprisoned for.

    There's multiple men, she was outnumbered and heavily under the influence...

    The first doesn't matter (criminally speaking, not making moral judgments here), the second only if she wasn't able to give consent.

    Consent has to be freely given

    Yes. But any coercion must actually exist, not just be in your head.

    Now I wasn't there, I don't know if there was coercion or she passed out or anything else. But I saw nothing so far that would make me believe they raped her, even in the parts of her statement that were released. People should be presumed innocent unless proven guilty and here even the accusers statement doesn't seem to hold much, let alone any independent evidence.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago

    Do the gaps not raise a concern for you? And even the men don't say she wanted the snapchat message sent, showing she didn't consent to being offered. Abd I disagree that multiple men being in the room doesn't matter, as it creates fear/intimidation.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (5 children)

    No!

    I am not one of the people who say you can't possibly give consent while under the influence BUT everyone has the obligation to NOT DO anything to a person that they might not like.

    If you fuck a drunk person and than that person says you raped them you did not make sure they were able to really consent.

    For this specific case you don't seem to have the empathy to understand, a person who is so drunk that they were not able to consent in the first place than them saying yes or no to specific acts has like no meaning at all.

    If you have ever been blackout drunk you should be able to imagine that saying no or yes really loses all meaning in that situation.

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  • [–] -4 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (4 children)

    Your logic fails miserably on the fact the the guys were drunk too. If your logic applies, she also raped them. But of course, they are male, so I guess that is not a problem in your head.

    PS: Also, we as society don't accept alcohol as an excuse in any other context. You were drunk and someone convinced you to drive? Prison for you. You were drunk and interpreted something as consent that wasn't? Straight to prison. But you gave consent while drunk? That is everyone elses problem. The poor you can't be responsible for your choices cause you were drunk. Everyone else needs to go to prison, for not doing alcohol and drug tests before accepting a clear "yes" as consent. Ridiculous.

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  • [+] 1 point 1 month ago* (1 child)
  • [–] 0 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

    You making up a different version of events from what I described and then convincing yourself I am a bad person based on that despite me clearly stating what I was referring to makes you a shitty person, not me. If she did not consent to explicit images being taken and/or distributed, those are crimes. If people she did not consent to fucked her, that is rape. No one is disputing that. You are just attacking me based on your own delusions or poor reading comprehension.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (2 children)

    No, you're ignoring the "and then that person says you raped them part." There's no indication from before, during, or after they raped her that she coerced the men into something they didn't want.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

    So you admit it's just the regret after that makes it a rape in your mind? Besides, if it had any legal meaning, I am sure they would be saying that to get out of trouble. But it doesn't, because that would be stupid. Someone regretting they agreed after can't be criminal, because you have no way of knowing the future. How the fuck would you ever be able to act on consent, if that person can just change their mind later and make it a crime.

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  • [–] 13 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 child)

    If you are in a mind altered state then you can’t consent to shit.

    Let’s put it this way, would anyone allow you to sign a contract for a loan or house if you were drunk. No they wouldn’t.

    Edit - furthermore if they (and that’s a big if as opposed to did) pushed the drinks and shots and who knows what else on her, to make it so she said yes then that sure as fuck proves they knew she had to be blitzed to say yes.

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  • [+] -6 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

    No one will let you out of a contract because you took one or two shots prior. Unless you are unconciouss or visibly don't understand what is happening, consent is consent. Or did she also rape the guys since they were drinking as well, also unable to consent? From what I read, she was neither passed out nor passive.

    If they actually spiked her drink, she was passed out, or anything else of the kind, that's of course rape.

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