you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • [–] 11 points 1 month ago (11 children)

    You are free to have a personal definition of the word "liberal" that differs from the widely accepted academic definition. It's just not helpful in discussion to assume everyone else uses that definition.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 11 child comments
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • [–] 9 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    Liberalism is a political and moral philosophy based on the rights of the individual, liberty, consent of the governed, political equality, right to private property, and equality before the law.

    Left out a VERY important part of that definition there, bucko.

    You fundamentally cannot be a proponent of liberalism without fundamentally supporting capitalism. It's literally part of the definition of liberalism.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • load more comments (1 reply)
  • [–] 7 points 1 month ago (6 children)

    You can be anticapitalist and liberal at the same time

    No, that doesn't even "check out" on the NATOpedia article. Even that article is explicit that liberalism is fundamentally a pro-capitalist ideology with private property as a core aspect. But it is fun watching you did a hole for yourself, step into it, then declare victory.

    And how is the OP meme referencing anything "tankies" say, other than that the person speaking in the OP image is someone you would call a "tankie"? See that little hammer and sickle next to her name? You really are deeply confused, aren't you.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 6 child comments
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • I know tankies like to see that and append "private" in front

    Private property is meant to include personal ownership of things other than land.

    prior to liberalism, property was handed out by the king, and owning property meant you were a noble.

    You're talking about land..... In most systems of feudalism the king granted land to the landed gentry who would then rent out that land for income.

    Individuals still owned personal property like homes, businesses, and horses. They just didn't own the land that property occupied.

    The idea that non-nobility can own anything, including personal property, is a liberal idea.

    That's just wildly inaccurate.... People have been owning different types of property since before recorded history. The only places this isn't the cultural norm for humans in general is a select sect of small communal societies who share everything.

    There are people who will claim that the property isn't truly owned because it's on someone else's land. But that would be like saying you don't truly own your home if you have to pay property taxes.

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 3 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (3 children)

    personal property is a liberal idea

    Hahaha holy shit man I can't, you heard it here first folks, owning things was invented in the 1600s, nobody had stuff before that and no society had laws or ideas about it.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 3 child comments
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • [–] 3 points 1 month ago

    I gotta get some of whatever it is you people are taking. The amount of confidence to talk about something I know absolutely fuck all about and just pretend I do. It's honestly impressive that you do it as you do.

  • source
  • parent
  • load more comments (1 reply)
  • load more comments (1 reply)
  • load more comments (1 reply)
  • There are different opinions when it comes to what truly defines liberalism, but you would be hard pressed to find one that does not include the advocacy of a market economy and the right for an individual to own the means of production.

    This is because liberalism arose as an alternative to mercantilism, where the state has more control over the economy. Under mercantilism the state had the means to control trade and the production of a large amount of goods meant to control the balance of import and export.

    When you combine a market economy with the right of individual ownership over the means of production you end up with capitalism. When the founding fathers of America spoke about the right over personal property, they weren't only talking about land ownership. That had already been an established right for men of their class in England since the late 17th century. They were speaking about property rights that were currently affecting their own lives, mainly the right to own and operate their businesses without the permit of the government.

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 9 points 1 month ago (55 children)

    That's just pure ideology based in propaganda. Liberalism is inherently pro-capitalism, and you are deluding yourself if you don't understand that. You can't separate politics and economics, that's why marxists use the term "political economy".

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 55 child comments
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • [–] 8 points 1 month ago (6 children)

    You’re missing the part of the definition of liberalism that upholds the right to private property, which is the core foundation of capitalism.

    There are other ideologies that uphold the right to control your own life that don’t also uphold private property, such as socialism.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 6 child comments
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • [–] 4 points 1 month ago (4 children)

    Ok, well since kings don’t rule the world anymore, how about e use the definition that is relevant to today’s systems?

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 4 child comments
  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (3 children)

    Would you say that exchanging goods and services is fundamentally capitalist? It's not like barter is relevant to today's systems?

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 3 child comments
  • [–] 4 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    No, commerce is not fundamentally capitalist. Markets existed before capitalist, and also exist in socialist states. Not sure where you're going with this one.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • [–] 3 points 1 month ago

    It really kinda didn't exist before capitalism though. Liberalism and capitalism co-evolved to respectively provide the moral justification and the material means for the bourgeois revolution against feudalism. Liberalism is inherently a capitalist ideology. Though I would agree that some of the principles that liberalism claims are indeed timeless and appropriate to include in any society.

  • source
  • parent
  • load more comments (1 reply)
  • load more comments (1 reply)
  • [–] 6 points 1 month ago (37 children)

    Propaganda has burrowed so deep into your thinking. Capital accumulation is inherently oppressive.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 37 child comments
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • [–] 10 points 1 month ago (35 children)

    Your continued conflation of personal liberty and capitalism is the core of your confusion. Fix that flaw in your understanding, and you might be able to reckon with the reality of political economy without these propaganda fairtales obscuring the truth.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 35 child comments
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • [–] 10 points 1 month ago (32 children)

    Ownership of productive property for accumulation of profit is the economic outcome of liberal ideals about the protection of all private property rights. I don't understand how liberalism can be anti-capitalist in practice. Capitalist accumulation means that the political power of capital overtakes any other. This is the historical reality. This is why liberal ideals have allowed the creation corporate personhood and free speech has resulted in no functional constraint of money in politics. This is how the process always plays out. If you are anti-capitalist, that is incompatible with the liberal ideals of absolute private property rights. That is a contradiction that many anti-capitalists highlight extensively.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 32 child comments
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • [–] 9 points 1 month ago (30 children)

    Liberal ideals don’t inherently protect private property rights, as the difference between private and personal property was not yet established.

    Entirely incoherent. The division of personal vs private property is an anti-capitalist concept and not part of liberalism at all. This is why liberalism has to be left behind, because it is inherently supportive of capitalist accumulation and all that comes with it. Acting like liberalism can include this distinction is complete historical illiteracy.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 30 child comments
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • [–] 12 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (28 children)

    If you want to stake out incoherent political idealism as a form of wishcasting, go for it. Just don't expect material reality to conform to your delusions. Liberalism has no claim on "the right to live life as you see fit" though. It is indeed the ideology of slavery and colonialism, and continues its exploitative conquests under the guise of capitalism.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 28 child comments
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • [–] 12 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (3 children)

    Wishful Idealism is when you realize the system that is killing every human being on earth needs to be replaced

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 3 child comments
  • load more comments (1 reply)
  • [–] 11 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (22 children)

    That's what it advertizes, sure. But that's not how it actually functions in practice. Just look around with open eyes please.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 22 child comments
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • [–] 11 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (17 children)

    Glad you're happy to be ruled by genocidal pedophiles. Truly the heights of liberty.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 17 child comments
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • [–] 11 points 1 month ago (8 children)

    Lol just Sayin Shit, turning to projection as you guys always do when the reality of your monstrosity confronts you.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 8 child comments
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • [–] 7 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (6 children)

    Just nut up and call me a slur already dude, this is loser shit

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 6 child comments
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • [–] 10 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (4 children)

    Its true, I've never been exposed to a non-communist idea somehow. I'm just a poor hypnotized brainwashed npc who spawned just before this conversation and I know nothing of this American "freedom" youve been talking about all thread. Can you tell me about it? It must feel fantastic since their wise leaders are willing to slaughter billions for it.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 4 child comments
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • [–] 8 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (2 children)

    No no, I'm trying to escape! Can you please help me? There's no food here and they make us all transcribe the posts by hand. Despite the fact that other instances are constantly looking over their shoulder for us, we're actually secretly very weak and miserable and teetering on collapse. Please, western capitalist hero. Can you tell me about capitalist freedom so that I might have a morsel of hope to take back to my fellow oppressed posters as we huddle around a barrel fire in our grey jumpsuits outside the mod's lavish palace?

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • load more comments (1 reply)
  • load more comments (1 reply)
  • load more comments (1 reply)
  • load more comments (1 reply)
  • [–] 11 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (6 children)

    Drone strikes, ICE raids, the largest prison population on the planet, all this leaves you completely unbothered. Got mine, fuck everyone else, right? The true essence of liberalism indeed.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 6 child comments
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • [–] 11 points 1 month ago* (4 children)

    You lived in the USSR, and you are this miseducated? That seems highly unlikely. Liberalism is a helluva drug tho.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 4 child comments
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • load more comments (1 reply)
  • load more comments (1 reply)
  • load more comments (1 reply)
  • [–] 9 points 1 month ago (2 children)
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • [–] 6 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

    Source: Simon Sebag Montfiore, close personal friend of the pedophile oligarch pictured above and signatory to the recent "Israel totally isn't committing genocide you guys" letter.

  • source
  • parent
  • load more comments (1 reply)
  • load more comments (1 reply)
  • load more comments (1 reply)
  • load more comments (1 reply)
  • load more comments (1 reply)
  • load more comments (1 reply)
  • load more comments (1 reply)
  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago (4 children)

    This is quite the nothing-burger reply you've assembled. What's the definition of Liberal you're operating on?

    Honestly, I've reread your first sentence so many times. I might make a hat with it.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 4 child comments
  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (3 children)

    Here ya go.

    Liberalism is a political and moral philosophy based on the rights of the individual, liberty, consent of the governed, political equality, right to private property, and equality before the law.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 3 child comments
  • load more comments (2 replies)
  • load more comments (1 reply)
  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago (6 children)

    People aren't digging your comment because I think you haven't distinguished between liberal social values of upholding personal liberty and free and fair elections, with the liberal economic value private ownership of capital. The former makes sense and non-negotiable. The latter is becoming obsolete overtime.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 6 child comments
  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago (5 children)

    I think some of the people who are unhappy with my comment have a vested interest in conflating the two as well, tbh.

    C'est la vie.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 5 child comments
  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (4 children)

    I see you've got into argument with .ml users 😂 not all of them are bad but they are in their own bubble and see everything in material dialectics.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 4 child comments
  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago* (3 children)

    Genuinely, what do you find preferable to examining the world through a scientific lens?

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 3 child comments
  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    A lens is not the only tool in science.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • load more comments (1 reply)