Transcript:

Two panel meme.

Top panel: Woman in the front seat of a car screaming at a child in the rear seat. She's saying "Why can't you just shutdown?"

Bottom panel: A child screaming "A stop job is running for Session c2 of user ... (1:30 / no limit)"

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[–] 90 points 3 months ago (53 children)

If anything ever makes me leave systemd. It'll be this.

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  • [–] 28 points 3 months ago (12 children)

    Why? You can bypass it immediately if it's a one-off, or go update the unit configuration to have a short timeout if it's a regular error.

    More likely though, it's something that should actually be fixed, like a misconfigured fstab. Systemd is rarely the problem here.

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  • [–] 3 points 3 months ago (11 children)

    how do you bypass it? didn't know its a thing

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  • [–] 8 points 3 months ago (7 children)

    If you hit Ctrl-Alt-Delete 7 times in 2 seconds it will skip immediately

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  • [–] 9 points 3 months ago (5 children)

    I can't tell if you're fucking with us or not. πŸ˜’

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago

    Unless the culprit is that one process permanently stuck in uninterruptible disk sleep, in which case the timer would just perpetually go up, and pressing 7x Ctrl-Alt-Del as you mentioned will simply shut down systemd and the kernel itself will start complaining (faulty hardware can cause this)

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  • [–] 27 points 3 months ago (4 children)

    Ughh recently had an amd graphics kernel bug which would lock up some /proc file somehow

    You’d go β€œwhy are fabs at max” type ps or top and they would freeze. System monitor would freeze.

    β€œOkay, I’ll just reboot, this is fucked”, and systemd is just there:

    Luckily it’s patched now. Hopefully those hard reboots didn’t damage anything.

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  • [–] 11 points 3 months ago (3 children)

    Hard reboots don't damage anything but the OS state, and even that has been protected against the last 2 decades.

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  • [–] 3 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    That is good to know, because I do not want to replace a 2tb ssd.

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  • [–] 6 points 3 months ago

    Apart from static discharge, or a broken power supply, I don't think there's anything your computer could do to the SSD to actually break it. Worst case you just need to reformat it.

    (I guess if it writes to it constantly it could wear out, but that's different than a hard shutdown)

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  • [–] 6 points 3 months ago

    Some computer components don't protect against voltage loss and some OS components aren't tolerant to sudden shutdown but we're 99% the way there. Any of the two which don't have protection at this point are complete garbage.

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  • [–] 90 points 3 months ago (31 children)

    That's not really systemd's fault though. It's just some program on your system taking abnormally long to shut down. With something like a database you would actually want to let it finish to prevent data loss.

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  • [–] 110 points 3 months ago (10 children)
  • [–] 19 points 3 months ago (8 children)
  • [–] 17 points 3 months ago (5 children)

    I thought kill only accepts pids, so I think you want pkill there.

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  • [–] 32 points 3 months ago (4 children)

    Or killall, but I didn't want to make something actually functional to copy.

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  • [–] 20 points 3 months ago* (10 children)

    This happens, too. A burst of local brownouts killed an OPNsense firewall of mine once. (The hardware was fine. The data got wrecked.) The firewall would boot, or almost finish booting, and then another brownout would hit. After the third or fourth cycle, the poor thing was toast.

    I should thank the power company for free resilience testing.

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  • [–] 16 points 3 months ago (9 children)

    Did you learn your lesson and get a UPS?

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  • [–] 10 points 3 months ago (7 children)

    Brownout once fried my UPS. My guess is the inverter circuit.

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  • [–] 14 points 3 months ago (3 children)

    Better the ups than the stuff attached to it.

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  • [–] 5 points 3 months ago* (2 children)

    If only we could be so lucky. They don't make Minutemans anymore.

    My house flooded once, had like an inch of water in the living room, and my Minuteman ups was just sitting there beeping cos there was no power.

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  • [–] 4 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    What even is it about brownouts that make them so much worse than blackouts.

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  • [–] 10 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (1 child)

    A blackout is just a loss of power. Nothing complicated about it. There are obvious human and societal consequences, but as far as the infrastructure is concerned, a blackout usually means that protection devices have been tripped and the system has protected itself from greater damage.

    A brownout means that the electric grid (or interconnection), for some reason, can't supply enough power to satisfy the demand, but protection devices haven't tripped yet. It can result in momentary power losses, drops in voltage, drops in frequency, or some generators getting desynchronized with the rest of the grid. If reactive loads (like HVAC motors) go offline momentarily, they can cause spikes in power consumption, which can overload circuits and trip safety devices.

    A UPS needs to immediately switch to battery power when there are signs of an imminent power loss. A brownout might cause a consumer-grade UPS to switch on and off repeatedly, which the inverter circuit probably doesn't like.

    This channel is run by a real civil engineer, he's released some great videos about the challenges of maintaining an electric grid.

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  • [–] 3 points 3 months ago

    I did. All the important things have time to gracefully shutdown now. (Except my for my rack of 4 DL360's, which need something a little more robust than a Walmart UPS. They aren't critical and only exist to handle weird one-off projects anyway.)

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  • [–] 12 points 3 months ago

    Not sure about that. When I first installed Gentoo with OpenRC everything went fine, just the boot/shutdown times were a bit slower than with SystemD's when it didn't do this shenanigans. But when I started reading about the SystemD hype I decided to try it and it did this at random - and got fed up so went back to OpenRC and never experienced this again. Maybe a misconfiguration on my part or something but I didn't do something out of what the manual said about how to set it up.

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  • [–] 8 points 3 months ago (4 children)

    If it was really the program's fault, why doesn't it happen when I switch to sysvinit? (or maybe openrc, I haven't tried that one)

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  • [–] 10 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    possibly they ship a bad systemd unit config for their package

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  • [–] 3 points 3 months ago

    Not onl that but they usually remove the init script as well, so unless you go for archives you no longer have a sane mechanism for starting and stopping the service.

    Fortunately Debian has a orphaned-init-scripts package that can help alleviate that pain, as you can also use those scripts (or even better, openrc scripts) as skeletons to replace systemd service units.

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  • [–] 11 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    Because you didn't bother fixing the underlying issue but got lucky.

    Or these other inits are more brutal in their shutdown procedure, but I doubt that.

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  • [–] 10 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (1 child)

    That's not really systemd's fault though.

    Oh, but it is. Upstart and sysV will both assassinate everything after a point. This bullshit is entirely new, either by Systemd sucking, or Systemd allowing this shit (thus, sucking), where neither thing happened beforehand.

    I admit I rage when it's starting or stopping and can't win for all the losing -- especially because "startup time" was the the main (unfounded) feature on the banner they waved around.

    I work with sysV and Systemd and shut each down on a regular basis, via tooling, for stuff like patching, so it's often a horse-race to offline. The difference is often negligible, for new machines or established boxes with apps, and the main difference is sometimes Systemd fails its YOU HAD ONE job from time to intermittent time.

    I work in a team where Unix and Linux is ~15 very experienced admins, so don't fret over the skills and experience question or the scale question.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago

    I don't know, I don't want them to be assassinated to be honest. If an app has something to do before finish, it's beter it does it. If it's some kind of bullshit, the app sucks and I don't use it anymore.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago

    What I would call out systemd for is that it can make it difficult to know precisely what thing it isn't happy with. Abstracting a mishbehaving process to "user session" when it could call out the offending process by name.

    Similarly, when it's trying to decide the network is 'online', and by all appearances the network interface was configured, but systemd isn't so sure, sometimes it's hard to tell why.

    A lot of the bad experience with Windows similarly could be attributed to something workable, but the design obfuscates the underlying behavior. Systemd has been bringing some of that sentiment over, and that can be more aggravating.

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