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  • [–] 9 points 3 months ago (3 children)

    I don't think the Lockean argument actually gets you where you want it to go.

    Locke's labor theory of property doesn't just say creators own the fruits of their labor. It also says they have the right to alienate that property, to sell it, transfer it, or give it away. Once that transfer occurs, ownership changes hands. That's the entire point of property rights.

    This is where your comparison to theater performances breaks down.

    A performance is inherently ephemeral. Of course you only buy admission. But books, paintings, sculptures, and other tangible works have been bought and sold for centuries. When Rembrandt sold a painting, he didn't retain the right to dictate who displayed it, resold it, or inherited it. When someone bought a book, the author retained the copyright, but they didn't retain ownership of that physical copy.

    That's the distinction your argument glosses over.

    Physical media didn't create some bizarre loophole that tricked consumers into believing they owned art. Copyright law has always separated ownership of a copy from ownership of the intellectual property. Buying a novel never meant you owned the copyright. It meant you owned that particular copy.

    The "historical anomaly" argument doesn't really hold either. Technology creating new forms of property isn't evidence that those forms are somehow illegitimate. Printing presses, photography, automobiles, patents, and even digital storage all changed what could be owned. Calling something a historical anomaly doesn't make it philosophically suspect.

    Where your argument has merit is with services. An MMO, cloud software, or any product that depends on ongoing servers and continuous development is fundamentally different from a finished single-player game or a movie sitting on a disc. Those genuinely require ongoing labor.

    But once you start arguing that creators retain moral authority over every copy they've sold forever, you've left Locke behind. You're no longer defending property rights, you're defending perpetual control after the sale. That's a very different philosophical position, and I don't think your conclusion follows from your premise.

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  • [–] 3 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    I think we've drifted away from your original argument.

    Your original comment was making a philosophical case. It appealed to history, Locke's labor theory, and the moral authority of creators. My response addressed those claims directly.

    Your latest reply, however, isn't really defending that philosophical position. It's explaining how software licensing currently works under copyright law and why software is treated differently from books or paintings.

    I don't disagree with most of that. Software has long occupied a unique legal category, and EULAs have existed for decades.

    But that's a different argument from the one you originally made. We've shifted from "this is the morally correct understanding of ownership" to "this is the current legal framework for software."

    If your point is simply that software has historically been licensed rather than sold outright, then I don't think we're actually in much disagreement anymore.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (15 children)

    Your entire premise is based upon on a couple of misunderstandings.

    First, on a technical note regardless if you have bought a physical disk or downloaded a digital copy you are still bound by an end user licensing agreement. The real historical difference amounts to a right to resale. There is no reason why, other than corporate greed, that we cannot resale our digital copies. Ideally this right should be restored by clarifying you own a single transferable copy of the code.

    Second, I think you make some important points that deserve to be discussed. You pack a lot of information in a very small amount of space which is very impressive. I am concerned that your points may be missing some important context. Also, when you bring morality into the discussion it makes me want to climb up on a metaphorical soap box because I see things very differently from a moral perspective.

    For thousands of years there was no Intellectual Property (IP). Artist copied each other as they always did and still do to this day. No ownership was needed or expected because all art and science is inherently iterative. What you accept as reality is really the modern "fluke" only existing in the last few hundred years.

    On a minor point, you also seem to confuse art and science with commerce. The majority of art is never intended for commercial sale. It is actually a very small amount that is created solely for commercial sale, yet we spend a disproportionate amount of time discussing it. It is important to point out this distinction otherwise we reduce all art to monetary value when in reality that is not the reason it is created.

    Science cannot exist without iteration. Our current system simply transfers science developed by individuals, often with public funding, to corporations. We will also see this theme in IP where corporations take their employee's work for their benefit and even worse, non-employee's work as well.

    Every once in awhile we will hear about an artist or scientist suing and winning against a major corporation, thus reinforcing the IP propaganda that it defends the little guy. The reality is these are the exceptions not the rule. It is not surprising though, by granting such an insane right of artificial scarcity that it would be abused by capital. This reality taints all IP and not bringing it up is a disservice to the discussion.

    From patent trolls to copyright scammers the reality is the little guy is the one who gets continuously screwed. So many people's life works have been stolen from them by corporations. This realization should make anyone skeptical of these rights when they are continuously abused by corporations.

    Due to these capilitistic designs the small percentage of commercial creator's rights are usually taken by corporations. This system is highlighted by the reality seen in the record industry and the fact that very few preformers own their own works. This shows us it is about protecting corporations and not non-wealthy individuals like you or I.

    Most people don't realize that defending copyright or patents take years and hundreds of thousands if not millions of dollars. This system is extremely inaccessible to individuals unless they are wealthy and can hire proxies to litigate and disseminate their lies for them. This creates perverse incentives that allow corporations to take other's rights.

    The very foundation of the US was based on intellectual piracy with the founding fathers encouraging it to build American industry. This can be seen in modern day with countries like China (although I feel they are no longer borrowing as much because of their amazing innovations). Thomas Jefferson is a famous inventor who basically paid other people to do all the work, remind you of Musk much. We must recognize that we have always ignored IP when it suits us. This can be seen with AI right now.

    Back to morality and IP. The concept that a creator gets to benefit from the same labour over and over again through artificially scarcity enforced by the state is pretty ridiculous honestly. It is absurd on its face and an affront to how most people earn a living. People may deserve compensation, but not an endless revenue stream.

    Once again, this is rarely about the individual as corporations and the wealthy are the primary beneficiaries of these legal rights that they have spent hundreds of years lobbying the state and the court systems for.

    Indeed the origin of copyright was about control and censorship and not protect individuals rights. I will admit that when it comes to IP, patents did have slightly more honest beginnings by forcing the grantee to expose how their inventions works as an actual public good. Regardless of this one benefit to the public, the patent is inherently a tool of control as well.

    We can see how modern day industry has been shaped by abusing and misusing the right of patent. Creating an impossible barrier to entry, blocking competition, effectively endlessly renewing patents as seen in the pharmaceutical industry, patenting concepts others have developed because of first to file rights, patenting concepts that do not meet the the proper standards by regulatory capture, etc all show the system is broken and is merely a tool for the wealthy to manipulate the market

    Capturing art on physical media is not new as evidenced by as far back as cave art and countless other examples throughout human history. Technology certainly changes the equation, but your argument that this has lead to consumer entitlement is bizarre. I suppose your trying to say by owning a copy of the movie the consumer also feels they "own" the movie itself. I won't discount some people may believe this, but I also don't think this is a realistic assessment of the situation.

    There is a major problem when you lump code in with other creative works. I won't spend too much time on this because it is a rather large topic. What I will say is the creator doesn't own the code because just like math there is often an obvious way to the solution. You should never be able to own a solution under system of enforced artificial scarcity. Software patents are absolute garbage that stifle creativity.

    I am glad you recognize the difference between digital goods and physical goods. I think you come to very contradictory and dystopian conclusions then I would though.

    In your world no one owns anything digitally because "creator" aka the corporation needs moar money. You pay to be able to grace yourself with their amazing talent for but a brief moment.Your digital media is not yours and can be taken away at any time. Your game can charge you every time you play it, you operating system is spyware because the owner of the software wants it to be.

    In my world I pay for my hardware. Keeping those zeros and ones alive is something I pay for not them. I pay for the hardware, electricity, and connection to the Internet. I pay to upgrade and maintain it. I have invested interest and a right to my property. I am not paying for an experience. I am paying for a file and once I have possession of the file it is mine to do with what I want. This is digital reality.

    Your argument seems to be copyright maximalist crossed with corporate shill. I also find your argument devolves into almost a moral panic of technology. A lot of what you criticize is similar to what people said about records and photography. Interestingly these arguments are currently being used against AI. I think you may enjoy this link.

    https://medium.com/@elarson39/photography-was-historically-considered-arts-most-mortal-enemy-is-ai-69a2dc2f43ef

    Equating labor to copying ones and zeros is pretty comical. The reason an artist is paid is they perform. Insane copyright laws have lead to bizarre situations like car mechanics in England getting sued for listen to music while they work on cars because customers might hear it and they don't have the performance rights.

    I will leave you with this conundrum.

    There is only one way to truly protect your art. Never share it with anyone. There is only one way to prove your work is truly original. Be raised by wolves never interacting with humans and produce great works of art without using any frame of reference other than the ones you invented yourself in a vacuum. Only then is your art truly original and protected.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago (11 children)

    I am just explaining to you how you act. If you don't want people to treat you like a bootlicker then don't act like one. It is rather simple honestly.

    Oh look, you make up a bunch of additional costs that are not related to running the authorization server at all. You don't have to use anything you are describing unless you want to. You don't have to store personal information, you don't have to have expensive DDOS protection which has turned into quite the racket for companies like cloud flare. You don't have to have engineers on staff at all times.

    You once again construct a strawman to satisfy your insatiable desire to be correct. No one said they expect a live service game to be run indefinitely. I find it amazing how quickly you construct lies. If you are not going to bother to read and understand then don't be surprised when people dismiss the AI slop you spew.

    I am so sorry that the last console push towards digitization didn't work out because people didn't like the restrictive systems being proposed. That they didn't want to run down to GameStop to be able to trade a game with a friend. It was a ridiculous idea and blaming the consumer for what they want is both ham fisted and disingenuous to the situation.

    I never said anything you claim. It is pretty bizarre how you just lie continuously and rely on AI to make your arguments. You have basically just argued with yourself the entire time. To each his own.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago* (7 children)

    I never said I was in the game industry. Since you ask, yes I was heavily into the development of games in the past. I was also a reseller for VPS so I have spent large amounts of time in CLI configuring servers around the world.

    We are obviously not going to see eye to eye here because we come from completely different paradigms. It is okay. I don't like where corporations are taking us. I see the greatest games studios being bought up and shuttered by corporate greed.

    I will not pretend that they have advanced the art of video games. They have instead invested in the commercialization of video games trying to extract as much value as they can. Luckily, indy developers have stepped up where massive corporations have failed. Most of the best games I have played in the last decade have been non-mainstream.

    I think your cynical comment about not being able to afford gaming has some truth to it. I personally have eliminated Windows from my household because I grew tired of having a spyware OS. I don't spend the money I used to on video games and I have taken months long breaks from playing everyday to work on other projects and to spend more time with friends and family.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago (3 children)

    Implying I am a racist or bigot is pretty fucked up. I am not surprised though.

    If that is what you got from what I said then it is apparent you are devoid of any logical thought. Are you always this insufferable?

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  • [–] 7 points 3 months ago (12 children)

    You do not own a creator’s code, film, or digital ecosystem, and you never did.

    Bullshit. Complete and utter bullshit.

    Art is the common property of all mankind. Art is the human soul. The very idea that you can restrict the creativity of another human being is an affront to the human spirit. You know what is truly a modern anomaly? Copyright and all IP law. For 99% of human history, artists would laugh in your face if you suggested that a musician had some God-given right to prevent others from singing a song they just wrote.

    You have no natural right to "intellectual property," because ultimately what you mean by "intellectual property" is the temporary right to exclusive sale of a product. And that is not a natural right. It's not a natural right like freedom of speech, or even ownership of tangible property. Copyright violation is fundamentally different from real theft because it doesn't deprive the owner of an original. Yes, you as an artist may feel you have some innate ownership to an idea, but that is a sense of privilege and entitlement that comes from misunderstanding the history and purpose of IP law. Hell, for most of history, artists were not even considered the source of creative works. Medieval painters didn't sign their works, because they considered God to be the real creator. Before that, the Muses got credit.

    Here is what you are missing. Copyright is not an innate right. It's a useful legal compromise, nothing more. We discovered through trial and error that providing a limited period of exclusive use of a work to an artist helps get more art made. But that's all it is, a pragmatic compromise. Do not confuse it for a natural right like life, liberty, or the pursuit of happiness.

    No one creates art in a vacuum. Everything is inspired and derived from works that came before it. There are no original stories. Artists are only able to create works because they've trained and studied on the works of countless other artists that came before them. Your work as an artist is just one tiny piece of a grand cultural tapestry. And as you were able to benefit from the commons, in turn your work will return to the commons to inspire others. A drop from the ocean. An ocean from a drop. That is the nature of art and creativity.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    Whenever people make claims like "You have no natural right to intellectual property", I'm very curious A) what is the fullest extent of the amount of IP they, as an individual, have worked to create, and B) how secure their living situation and finances are.

    I find a lot of people shift their opinion after they've worked for years on something under genuine risk of it not doing well.

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  • [–] 4 points 3 months ago (7 children)

    So... We should go backwards instead of forward?

    For thousands of years back you could trade people for cows, owning your life is a massive historical misunderstanding.

    You could own the Mona Lisa. You could own the original Dante's inferno. For thousands of years there wasn't the technology to have a copy of the Iliad, then there was and you could have a copy that wasn't man-made, the press was born. You couldn't have a copy of a painting without a massive spending on a replica, then in 1600 in Japan with wooden blocks they mass distributed art of Hokusai. You couldn't own music until you could. You couldn't own performances until you could.

    Those were never moral or logical reasons not to, the technology just didn't exists. Now the technology does exist and you say that because it didn't before, then it's a fluke?

    For most of human history people died at early ages, we should go back to that and ditch all antibiotics I guess then, if "history" is the bar you're measuring "moral".

    Also, guess what, the architect of the work was never in control of their art nor had the "moral authority" of how their work is consumed. Do you really thing that Homer personally went and trained everyone who wanted to interpret the Iliad? Your whole argument is based in something that didn't even existed in the first place with tons of examples of the contrary that the only thing I can think is that you're trolling or severely brainwashed.

    They sold a product, not an "experience". Without massive access and preservation of art in all forms civilization couldn't even begin to grow as fast as it did in the last thousand years.

    And before anything else, the mere concept of "owning" is the single most important part of capitalism, if they want to play the "owning" game then we should all be able to play the game. Also historically "owning" didn't exist. We should course correct to the one true way of tribadism and nomads. I guess.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago (3 children)

    What the hell are you talking about. John Nintendo himself didn't had to pay anyone to make Mupen64. I assure you that Michael Sony didn't had to pay to his engineer so Bloodborne could be played outside a PS4.

    No one. Absolutely no one is asking that Sony or any other company release patches forever and that I could play Crash Bash in a PS5 or boicot. My PS4 broke years ago, I dumped my Bloodborne copy and play it again on my PC. Sony didn't had to pay anyone a single cent for that to happen.

    I'm really curious of who are you listening that made you think that the issue with killing physical media is "I want support forever"...

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  • [–] 5 points 3 months ago (7 children)

    Not sure if you are joking or not.

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  • [–] 5 points 3 months ago* (5 children)

    Stories being owned is not how things always where, not by a long shot.

    Bards, actors, and other performers would re-tell them, adding their own twists and artistic choices.

    Paintings and books have been being sold for centuries, which in effect, are treated the same way DVD's are.

    The corporate capture of art and , and the monopoly of ideas are newer than you let on.

    Remember: the original intent of copyright was to protect the SCIENCES and ARTS, not the copyright holder.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago

    The opinions of Hobbes, Locke, and Rousseau are not absolutel nor ubiquitous. They may have said things that are no longer, or never were accurate and almost certainly should never be held to be inviolate/permanent.

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  • [+] 1 point 3 months ago (41 children)
  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago* (40 children)

    Because it establishes that the creator's authority is not absolute and the consumer has quite a bit of sway in how products are created and commercialized. Unless you are one of such people who believe indirect coercion of the free market doesn't count as coercion? If the creator of a for-profit work must (more or less) present their work in a specific way otherwise no-body will buy it, that is coercion and a slight to the creator's authority, no?

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  • [+] 1 point 3 months ago (39 children)
  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago (38 children)

    I appreciate that sentiment, but let's stay on topic. This and the original article, movement, etc, are for commercial ventures no?

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  • [+] 1 point 3 months ago (37 children)
  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago (36 children)

    Yeah I mean I agree with you on the topic of video games in general. It's cool. But like I said, this original article, movement, etc, is for video games that are sold to customers for money and for profit.

    If YOU choose to engage with them commercially then you do so at the creators direction and on their terms.

    Yes, and I said that the consumers in general can coerce creators by choosing which works to engage with. Again, If the creator of a for-profit work must (more or less) present their work in a specific way otherwise no-body will buy it, that is coercion and a slight to the creator’s authority, no? (Bolded for emphasis)

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  • [+] 1 point 3 months ago (35 children)
  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago (34 children)

    I think you responded to the wrong post 😅

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  • [+] 1 point 3 months ago* (33 children)
  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago (32 children)

    Sorry, it took me for a surprise because I don't believe I have expressed any preference for a type of video game here. No, I am not insinuating that developers won’t be able to make money if they don’t “comply” with some draconian corporate strategy they loath. Like I said earlier, it's a hypothetical scenario.

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  • [+] 1 point 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (31 children)
  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago (30 children)

    Then, going back to the original post, you would be okay with saying that there isn't really a "necessity" in the "course correction", and that if the 3,700,000,000 gamers wanted otherwise, they probably would get it, right?

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  • [+] 1 point 3 months ago* (29 children)
  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago (28 children)

    I would see it as a moral failing of society to choose ongoing victimization of create workers for their own convenience.

    Why? It's not a failure for a consumer to want what they want. You even said yourself earlier:

    If a thing stops being something I want to engage with, I stop engaging.

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  • [+] 1 point 3 months ago (27 children)
  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago (26 children)

    In your own words, what is the difference? Does it make a practical difference to the creator whose work is no longer being consumed?

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  • [+] 1 point 3 months ago (25 children)
  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago* (24 children)

    A boycott, by definition is an attempt to punitively coerce others.

    Punitively coerce by witholding your sale. The same sale that would have been witheld by your disengagement.

    If your employer attempted to coerce you into physical relationship to “earn” a promotion, would that feel different to you than them simply overlooking you for said promotion?

    The issue here is that the condition is unrelated to your employment. The end of life plans of the video game is directly relevant to whether you might want to purchase said game or not.

    would that feel different to you

    Are you trying to say that the difference is just vibes?

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  • [+] 1 point 3 months ago (23 children)
  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago* (22 children)

    We're not talking about my expectation, we're talking about the hypothetical expectation of the boycotting gamers that you yourself brought up a couple of posts ago, and why you would consider them not buying video games a tragedy, while it is not a tragedy if you do not buy a video game.

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  • [+] 1 point 3 months ago* (21 children)
  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (20 children)

    Why is it not coercion when you disengage with a work? Obviously you disengage for a particular reason, and if that reason no longer applicable, you would no longer disengage right? Or do you just randomly disengage with works that you are completely satisfied with?

    you can talk to that strawman all on your own…

    In your own words, could you explain what you believe the strawman is, and why it does not apply in your case?

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  • [+] 1 point 3 months ago (19 children)
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  • [+] 1 point 3 months ago (17 children)
  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago (16 children)

    Which word in the above post are you having trouble with?

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  • [+] 1 point 3 months ago (15 children)
  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago (14 children)

    to compel to an act or choice

    In both cases, if the person needs what the other person is witholding, he is compelled to meet their demands, no?

    Ask direct complete questions

    "Even if your boss simply ignores you, the assumption is that there is a reason underneath, no?" and "And if you need what your boss has bad enough to change your behavior, you are coerced into it, no matter if the demand was properly communicated (proposition) or not (ignoring), no?" are complete questions, in fact, they are straight up yes or no questions, the simplest of them all.

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  • [+] 1 point 3 months ago (13 children)
  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago* (12 children)

    What do you mean burden of proof? It's the dictionary definition. That I put literally right on top. To be compelled to act. Are you saying that in one case, you are not compelled to act, despite needing the same thing from the same party?

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