▲ 207 ▼ Cowbee enters the chat (crazypeople.online) submitted 5 months ago by hamid@crazypeople.online to c/memes@lemmy.ml 180 comments fedilink hide all child comments
[+] ordnance_qf_17_pounder@reddthat.com 70 points 5 months ago (135 children) [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 135 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] pineapple@lemmy.ml 29 points 5 months ago (1 child) nor is capitalism hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] ZeroHora@lemmy.ml 19 points 5 months ago And he wants someone to "honestly argue with him" LMAO. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 5 months ago Capitalism doesn't assume anything, it wasn't thought of and created, it arose from the commodification of production and distribution towards the end of feudalism. It arose naturally, without a plan. Communism isn't a "plan" either, Marx analyzed where capitalism was necessarily trending towards and saw that as production was socializing, profits were remaining private, creating sharper contradictions and crisis. Communism socializes the profits of production and distribution, and finishes capitalism's socialization process. Neither of them are built on any assumptions surrounding greed whatsoever. permalink fedilink source parent [–] calmblue75@lemmy.ml 16 points 5 months ago* Heavily disagree, friend. Capitalism by itself is bad. It may have good things, but that hardly justifies the inhuman and cruel roots it stands on. Capitalism does not assume that its proponents should be free of greed, it wants them to be greedy. Why the hell would you want to keep expanding your money if not for greed? Capitalism runs on this principle of self expanding value and inequal exchanges. It strives for profit, nothing else. I haven't studied communism well enough, but communism doesn't assume it's proponents to be immune to greed, it dismantles the institutions by which greed operates(money, class, and state). permalink fedilink source parent [–] Catgrass@lemmy.world 16 points 5 months ago (4 children) Read Marx permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] chloroken@lemmy.ml 18 points 5 months ago (2 children) I promise you that we all know you haven't read Marxist works. No need to lie. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments load more comments (2 replies) load more comments (1 reply) [–] FrowingFostek@lemmy.world 19 points 5 months ago Gotcha, I'm terrible with names. permalink fedilink source parent [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 18 points 5 months ago* (2 children) What points did I not address? I agree that I'm more optimistic than you were, but I don't believe that's without base. I could describe you as overly pessimistic. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments load more comments (2 replies) [–] chloroken@lemmy.ml 35 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (12 children) Well? Did you study up in communist theory, or are you content always getting dunked on? Also, please link us the thread where Cowbee "ignored your best points" so we can take a look at it. I'm curious to see what you're talking about. I suspect you're lying. Edit: https://lemmy.world/comment/23871382 Sigh, Cowbee painstakingly engaged with you, displayed patience and empathy and kindness, and this is the route you went. Reading your comments, you're completely and utterly clueless. You would do well to stop throwing mud at people who take time to help you parse your scattered "ideology" and instead do some reading and shut the fuck up. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 12 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] calmblue75@lemmy.ml 20 points 5 months ago* (9 children) I read through your thread with Cowbee that chloroken had listed and am still confused what you mean by a moderately conservative communist. Can you elaborate why you choose to describe a communist, essentially a person who wants to bring change, as conservative, which means to oppose change? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 9 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] calmblue75@lemmy.ml 15 points 5 months ago (6 children) Conservative doesn't mean what you think it does. Conservative means not changing the state at all. Capitalism is the status quo. Communism is something new, something untried, that resolves to break the status quo. Conserving the environment means to stop whatever actions we are doing to change it. Usually people mean stopping the destructive actions towards the environment, so it has eventually come to mean saving the environment/biodiversity, etc. That still doesn't change the meaning of the word conservative, which means upholding the prevailing state of things. If a train is heading towards a cliff, hitting the brakes is conservative in the literal sense Using your example, letting the train run is conservative, and hitting the brakes to stop it (changing the state) is radical. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] ZombieSenpai@lemmy.ml 15 points 5 months ago (3 children) I think you're conflating ecological conservation and political conservatism. This seems like an argument that wouldn't exist in a language that created a meaningful distinction between the two. An individual that is protecting the rights of capital to cause rapid ecological damage, is doing so by seeking to preserve the power of private capital. A leftist seeking to abolish the power of capital to conserve the environment is the radical in that case. Communism through conservatism as I think you are describing it isn't wrong, but it is at the very least confusing due to the clashing definitions of radical, conservative, and the targets of both changes and preservation of the structures. Once again for the sake of clarity Ecologic conservation, cultural/sociatal conservation ≠ economic conservatism. Sticking the terms together is kinda just confusing permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments load more comments (3 replies) [–] Hadriscus@jlai.lu 11 points 5 months ago You're playing on semantics permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (2 replies) [–] Juice@midwest.social 17 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) I read through the thread linked above. You are confusing "conservationism" with "conservative" Like we have to conserve, and so we should be "conservative". Not a terrible mix up. In any case, the debate on the left is: Planned degrowth vs. Eco-modernism. And I think it is correct to prefer a strategy of conservationism, that is degrowth, vs " keep building "productivity" which is eco-modernism. If in fact you are more attracted to the degrowth model, look into Jason Hickel. if you wanna research the other side, or feel affinity toward eco-modernism, you might check out Leigh Phillips. Here's a primer for the debate. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (1 reply) [–] Athena5898@lemmy.ml 18 points 5 months ago (1 child) I think you might have some things to work on. I wish you well on the journey of self discovery permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply) [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Count042@lemmy.ml 25 points 5 months ago* (31 children) You literally supported Rhodesia. You don't get to make moral arguments that anyone takes seriously and you sure don't get to criticize others arguments. Yours led you to support Rhodesia. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 31 child comments replies: [–] sharkfucker420@lemmy.ml 21 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (3 children) Holy shit? There are Rhodesia apologists on Lemmy? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] SpookyBogMonster@lemmy.ml 10 points 5 months ago It's like finding a legendary pokemon, if a pokemon said racial slurs permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (2 replies) [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 16 points 5 months ago (25 children) you do support the fascist regime in Ukraine tho, or gonna pretend that's also a funny story fash? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 25 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] m532@lemmy.ml 14 points 5 months ago authoritarian state-capitalist regimes Dictionary: libspeak to english non-western socialist governments permalink fedilink source parent [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] AntiOutsideAktion@lemmy.ml 12 points 5 months ago You fool! Once again you have defeated yourself by exceeding my attention span! permalink fedilink source parent [–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 12 points 5 months ago* Nice, another vapid reply from our resident fascist troll. The reply wasn't meant to convince you of anything since we all know exactly what you stand for. It's to educate people on the misinformation you spread here and how to address it. permalink fedilink source parent [–] EmmiLime@lemmy.ml 11 points 5 months ago someone that needs to read more theory 😏 Yeah you, however in your case a good start would be needing to be able to read anything since you seem to be engaging and arguing with your eyes closed permalink fedilink source parent [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) Do you earnestly think insult is any way to motivate someone to revisit a body of theory they've already engaged with? In absence of any recommendation on your part, I have very little reason to revisit what I've come to disagree with, beyond making sure that my understanding is still correct and seeing if there's anything useful for me. What "anarchist power level" do I need in order to have a conversation with you? How do you go about gaining comrades if this is how you treat those asking for recommendations? permalink fedilink source parent [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 9 points 5 months ago Cats can be flipped to dogs if you don't give a shit what's real, but most people do. permalink fedilink source parent [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago (6 children) Sure, a lot has indeed happened. I don't think it invalidates my question. Vanguards do not proclaim themselves as such, they become them through popular support from the people. This is not mere tautology, a vanguard cannot succeed in its aims alone, it requires the rest of the proletariat to rally behind it and legitimize it. It cannot be self-legitimizing. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments load more comments (6 replies) load more comments (12 replies) load more comments (1 reply) [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 18 points 5 months ago (55 children) Can you explain what I've posted that's fanfiction? I won't deny that I often copy and paste replies I've already written, as most topics discussed aren't genuinely new and I've usually discussed them before and see no need to artisinally craft each response, but I do take the allegations of fan-fiction seriously. Do you have an example? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 55 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 12 points 5 months ago (11 children) Marxist theory is unconnected to reality, yet Marxists have historically been so good at understanding and changing reality that you complain about that too🤔 permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 11 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 12 points 5 months ago (9 children) Lenin wrote his most critical theory before the Bolsheviks succeeded in establishing socialism, for example, Imperialism, the Current Highest Stage of Capitalism was published in 1916, and built on his previous studies of imperialism via the Marxist method. Marxism-Leninism is the living Marxism carried forward to the era of imperialism, and is not a deviation from Marxism but a continuation of it. Marx never became a reactionary, it was the anarchist faction that failed to counter Marx and was thus expelled from the First International. Marx has no weaknesses with respect to materialism as far as I know. It would help your points tremendously if you gave any examples of the flaws Marx supposedly has, or the ways Marxism-Leninism is a deviation, rather than a continuation. Instead, this seems to follow your strategy of subjectivism, just labeling things you don't like as counter-revolutionary without critically analyzing them. If you could verbalize how and why you disagree with Marxism-Leninism and Marxism, it would help your arguments enormously, as it stands there's 0 chance you're convincing anyone here, who already largely agrees with Marxism-Leninism, or anyone looking on who can see the MLs bring receipts while you refuse to provide any. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 9 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 9 points 5 months ago* (5 children) You did not provide arguments, you provided categorical declarations without backing them up or contextualizing them. Do you not see how enormously unproductive this is for bringing someone over to your side? Asserting that I simply "don't understand" your supposed arguments is also not going to hold any water, everyone can see plain as day that I have carefully responded exactly to what you've been declaring. As for materialism being disproven, again, you don't explain how or why, you just say that it has been, and reference "a hundred plus years of literature" without giving any examples, or explaining how it's supposedly wrong. Who are you trying to convince? Even for the sake of hypothetical, even if it was wrong, if your goal was to convince anyone of your argument, you've given them absolutely nothing to go off of to see if you're correct. All you've done is legitimize Marx, Lenin, and myself with this level of logic. As for Lenin's theory, you still haven't actually attacked it. You made the claim that it was all post-hoc, and when this was proven false, you deflected. This is just running away from the argument. I ask you again: for what purpose are you commenting? Is this how you try to gain comrades in real life? Do you even try to do so? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 9 points 5 months ago (3 children) Stalin, by his own admission, added very, very little to Marxism-Leninism. Marxism-Leninism is, at its core, laid out by Marx and Lenin. If you mean any retrospective analysis is "post-hoc justification," then this is absurd as retrospection must be post-hoc. If you mean most arguments in general are post-hoc, then you're ignoring the core of Marxism-Leninism that predates socialist states. I've been arguing in good faith the entire time, asking you over and over for actual arguments and reading, and you respond with insult. Are you aware of how this presents to onlookers? Do you think you're winning over others? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments load more comments (3 replies) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (3 replies) load more comments (1 reply) [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 5 months ago (39 children) What "obvious reasons?" The fact that socialist theory and history from socialists actually building socialism happens to back up their reasoning in most cases? There's also critique and discussion of problems in existing socialism coming from AES countries as well. This is an utterly self-defeating argument that only validates those most removed from the actual practice of building socialism. Again, to stress, your point is that we should inherently distrust those building socialism in real life, and only accept theory from those that are utterely disengaged from practice. Further, there's no critical examination of the merits of socialist theory and history produced by socialist countries on your part, the very fact that they are produced by the people actively building socialism is enough to discredit them in your views. Can you not see the logical trap? If you succeeded in building socialism and spoke about your experiences, successes, and failures, you would have to discredit yourself as fanfiction! Should the merit of theory not be tested through practice? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 39 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 9 points 5 months ago (19 children) Usurped control of the state from...who? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 19 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 5 months ago (17 children) The provisional government was a liberal, pro-capitalist government. The counter-revolutionary thing to do would be to protect the provisional government. Further, it was not a black and white case of the Bolsheviks losing elections, the various parties of the time formed coalitions, which legitimized the Bolshevik coalition, as well as the peasant elections that you're ignoring. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 17 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago (15 children) Nope, no historical inaccuracies. You're referring to the Right-SRs, who had recently split from the Left-SRs. The rural socialists banded together with the Bolsheviks in a coalition. You're also ignoring that the workers and peasants already saw the provisional government as illegitimate, backing the Soviets. The anarchists may have had what they believed were good ideas, but the proletariat and peasantry largely disagreed and agreed with the socialists, who coalesced around the Bolsheviks. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 15 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 9 points 5 months ago (10 children) Why would the Soviets overthrowing the capitalist government "invalidate the very idea they stood for?" The Soviets stood for worker and peasant power. They succeeded in establishing that very concept and turning it into concrete political reality. As for the idea of the Bolsheviks "purging people," you are referring to the ensuing Civil War, where the workers and peasants joined the Bolsheviks and the Red Army. Even anarchists largely joined the Red Army to fight off the Whites. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 10 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago (7 children) Nothing I have said is historically inaccurate. The Bolsheviks opposed cadets, mensheviks, and other groups that wished to retain the Tsar's colonies, wanted to prolong the war, and opposed Soviet power. The Soviets were a connected system, itself a state. Overthrowing the provisional government and solidifying the Soviet state as the only state does not oppose their purpose in the slightest, and it was a decision democratically approved. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 7 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago (5 children) I have read historically accurate accounts, though you define historical accuracy by it not being written by anyone succeeding. I've also asked for sources, and you haven't brought any beyond linking the anarchist library. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] calmblue75@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago (1 child) You still haven't provided any sources permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Oppopity@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago Yes but they started their sentences with "more historical inaccuracies" and "more fan-fiction" for the fifth time now and surely that counts for something. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (3 replies) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (2 replies) load more comments (4 replies) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 9 points 5 months ago (17 children) I think the texts written by socialists building socialism are valuable insights into the actual struggles run into when building socialism. I also believe labeling them "counter-revolutionaries" without demonstrating how and why this is the case is an entirely ineffective means of argument, I've already made it clear that I consider socialist states to be real, and I back up those claims with historical and theoretical evidence when needed. Simply saying "no" is not an argument, and telling me I'm removed from praxis and reality when I know this isn't the case is naked Ad Hominem. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 17 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (16 children) I agree that simple claims do not make a state socialist. I never made claims to the contrary. What makes a state socialist is proletarian control of the state, and public ownership as the principal aspect of the economy. All practical reality, contrary to your position, backs up this position. State capitalism refers to a bourgeois economy with heavy state planning, yet capitalist control of the state and the social surplus. Think the Republic of Korea, Singapore, etc. The NEP, China's and Vietnam's socialist market economies, all of these are largely differentiated from state capitalism through the class character of the state, and having public ownership as the principal aspect of the economy. Calling these "state capitalist" despite clear differences with the ROK, Singapore, etc. in form, direction, and results erases class from the state. Socialist planned economies take this further, having been farther along in eliminating private property. The DPRK, Cuba, and mid-late USSR are all examples of this form of socialist economy. This is where it makes even less sense to describe these as "state capitalism," you're just using capitalism to refer to industrial production at this point. Such a clear mislabeling makes utter mud of how we view socialism. This is not mere phraseology, but a practical investigation of what makes a class, which is defined by relation to ownership of the means of production. Administrators in socialism are not a "tiny ruling elite," they are a subsection of the broader proletariat, and share equal ownership of the means of production in practical terms, not merely formal phrasemongering. If the CPSU were a "tiny ruling elite," they certainly sucked at being so! Certainly you can see the clear difference between salaried workers and capital owners entitling themselves to the near entirety of the social surplus? Regarding the Russian revolution, I have read a great deal about it, as well as the period of early socialist construction, industrialization, collectivization, preparation for World War II, and the post-War economy, including reforms that weakened the socialist system and contributed partially towards its disollution. Lenin and the Bolsheviks were by no means counter-revolutionaries, even if you considered the NEP to be state capitalism, they abolished this and collectivized the economy. There's absolutely nothing backing what you've claimed. The Germans allowed Lenin to go to overthrow the Russian government precisely because they sought chaos, and even then it was dangerous for Lenin to do so as many people hated the idea. He had to travel covertly. Regarding the Ad Hominem, no, I did no such thing. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 16 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 5 months ago (11 children) In socialist states, ownership and control is held in the hands of the proletariat. Delegation and administration is built up precisely due to the necessity of administrative labor, this does not make salaried administrators a separate owner class. Teachers and principals are both proletarian, even if the form of labor is different, even if the pay is different, because they share the same class interests and relations to the means of production and distribution. What makes a society socialist is proletarian control of the state, and public ownership as the principal aspect of the economy. Plain and simple. Calling entirely different economic systems capitalist as a means to discredit socialism is a subjectivist argument, it doesn't get us any closer to the truth. As for me "disagreeing with historical fact," I'd love an explanation of how I do that. You do seem to admit to trying to convince me, so perhaps you could play ball and actually give me some examples, arguments, and literature? I'm utterly uninterested in subjectivist declarations devoid of any actual substance, without actual examples and arguments I couldn't even be convinced by you if I wanted to be. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 11 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 11 points 5 months ago (4 children) Monopolizing state power in the hands of the working classes is putting the working classes in power. The state is not outside of class struggle, but within it, and arises from it. None of my logic has been circular. As for your strategy, you reveal your utter disdain for actual organizing work when you claim you would be "doing my research for me." I am openly inviting you to share what you think are good ideas, and instead you insult me. This attitude is aristocratic, the workers are not good enough for your knowledge, they just have to trust whatever it is you say, and if they don't, they are not worthy. I never claimed to be your boss, nor am I a part of a vanguard party, as no party can declare itself as such. If you do org work in real life, I suggest you try to actually engage with those who disagree with you, or else you'll have an extremely difficult time gaining new members. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 5 months ago (3 children) None of this was ad-hominem. I did not say your claims were wrong because you have an aristocratic viewpoint, I explained your aristocratic attitude and how that impacts potential org-work. Revolution is definitely praxis, and I'm not sure what you mean by "armchair communist," I organize in real life. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments load more comments (3 replies) load more comments (6 replies) load more comments (4 replies) load more comments (1 reply) [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) I'd believe it if I were a bystander, povoq is doing this extremely well if he wants to validate my points uncontested. As funny as it would be, I am not secretly a solarpunk admin. Edit: Edie is clearly joking, for whoever is downvoting it. Edie isn't actually accusing me of making an alt to argue with. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (2 replies) [–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 24 points 5 months ago go home fash permalink fedilink source parent [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] ZeroHora@lemmy.ml 11 points 5 months ago (5 children) But if they had learned from their mistakes, it would have improved, but unfortunately those very same error were repeated multiple time (see the multiple famines the USSR faced while strangely their western counterparts did not. What other famine after holodomor? I can only think of one but was during siege from the nazis. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments load more comments (5 replies) [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] emergencyfood@sh.itjust.works 9 points 5 months ago (2 children) The state ownership of production is deliberate, and aimed at improving efficiency and allowing forward planning. One (or a few, if you want competition) large factory is more efficient than a bunch of smaller workshops. State ownership can lead to corruption, as you pointed out, but it is a conscious choice and not happenstance. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments load more comments (2 replies) load more comments (9 replies)
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] pineapple@lemmy.ml 29 points 5 months ago (1 child) nor is capitalism hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] ZeroHora@lemmy.ml 19 points 5 months ago And he wants someone to "honestly argue with him" LMAO. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 5 months ago Capitalism doesn't assume anything, it wasn't thought of and created, it arose from the commodification of production and distribution towards the end of feudalism. It arose naturally, without a plan. Communism isn't a "plan" either, Marx analyzed where capitalism was necessarily trending towards and saw that as production was socializing, profits were remaining private, creating sharper contradictions and crisis. Communism socializes the profits of production and distribution, and finishes capitalism's socialization process. Neither of them are built on any assumptions surrounding greed whatsoever. permalink fedilink source parent [–] calmblue75@lemmy.ml 16 points 5 months ago* Heavily disagree, friend. Capitalism by itself is bad. It may have good things, but that hardly justifies the inhuman and cruel roots it stands on. Capitalism does not assume that its proponents should be free of greed, it wants them to be greedy. Why the hell would you want to keep expanding your money if not for greed? Capitalism runs on this principle of self expanding value and inequal exchanges. It strives for profit, nothing else. I haven't studied communism well enough, but communism doesn't assume it's proponents to be immune to greed, it dismantles the institutions by which greed operates(money, class, and state). permalink fedilink source parent [–] Catgrass@lemmy.world 16 points 5 months ago (4 children) Read Marx permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] chloroken@lemmy.ml 18 points 5 months ago (2 children) I promise you that we all know you haven't read Marxist works. No need to lie. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments load more comments (2 replies) load more comments (1 reply)
[–] pineapple@lemmy.ml 29 points 5 months ago (1 child) nor is capitalism hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] ZeroHora@lemmy.ml 19 points 5 months ago And he wants someone to "honestly argue with him" LMAO. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] ZeroHora@lemmy.ml 19 points 5 months ago And he wants someone to "honestly argue with him" LMAO. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 5 months ago Capitalism doesn't assume anything, it wasn't thought of and created, it arose from the commodification of production and distribution towards the end of feudalism. It arose naturally, without a plan. Communism isn't a "plan" either, Marx analyzed where capitalism was necessarily trending towards and saw that as production was socializing, profits were remaining private, creating sharper contradictions and crisis. Communism socializes the profits of production and distribution, and finishes capitalism's socialization process. Neither of them are built on any assumptions surrounding greed whatsoever. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] calmblue75@lemmy.ml 16 points 5 months ago* Heavily disagree, friend. Capitalism by itself is bad. It may have good things, but that hardly justifies the inhuman and cruel roots it stands on. Capitalism does not assume that its proponents should be free of greed, it wants them to be greedy. Why the hell would you want to keep expanding your money if not for greed? Capitalism runs on this principle of self expanding value and inequal exchanges. It strives for profit, nothing else. I haven't studied communism well enough, but communism doesn't assume it's proponents to be immune to greed, it dismantles the institutions by which greed operates(money, class, and state). permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Catgrass@lemmy.world 16 points 5 months ago (4 children) Read Marx permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] chloroken@lemmy.ml 18 points 5 months ago (2 children) I promise you that we all know you haven't read Marxist works. No need to lie. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments load more comments (2 replies) load more comments (1 reply)
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] chloroken@lemmy.ml 18 points 5 months ago (2 children) I promise you that we all know you haven't read Marxist works. No need to lie. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments load more comments (2 replies)
[–] chloroken@lemmy.ml 18 points 5 months ago (2 children) I promise you that we all know you haven't read Marxist works. No need to lie. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments load more comments (2 replies)
[–] FrowingFostek@lemmy.world 19 points 5 months ago Gotcha, I'm terrible with names. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 18 points 5 months ago* (2 children) What points did I not address? I agree that I'm more optimistic than you were, but I don't believe that's without base. I could describe you as overly pessimistic. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments load more comments (2 replies) [–] chloroken@lemmy.ml 35 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (12 children) Well? Did you study up in communist theory, or are you content always getting dunked on? Also, please link us the thread where Cowbee "ignored your best points" so we can take a look at it. I'm curious to see what you're talking about. I suspect you're lying. Edit: https://lemmy.world/comment/23871382 Sigh, Cowbee painstakingly engaged with you, displayed patience and empathy and kindness, and this is the route you went. Reading your comments, you're completely and utterly clueless. You would do well to stop throwing mud at people who take time to help you parse your scattered "ideology" and instead do some reading and shut the fuck up. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 12 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] calmblue75@lemmy.ml 20 points 5 months ago* (9 children) I read through your thread with Cowbee that chloroken had listed and am still confused what you mean by a moderately conservative communist. Can you elaborate why you choose to describe a communist, essentially a person who wants to bring change, as conservative, which means to oppose change? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 9 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] calmblue75@lemmy.ml 15 points 5 months ago (6 children) Conservative doesn't mean what you think it does. Conservative means not changing the state at all. Capitalism is the status quo. Communism is something new, something untried, that resolves to break the status quo. Conserving the environment means to stop whatever actions we are doing to change it. Usually people mean stopping the destructive actions towards the environment, so it has eventually come to mean saving the environment/biodiversity, etc. That still doesn't change the meaning of the word conservative, which means upholding the prevailing state of things. If a train is heading towards a cliff, hitting the brakes is conservative in the literal sense Using your example, letting the train run is conservative, and hitting the brakes to stop it (changing the state) is radical. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] ZombieSenpai@lemmy.ml 15 points 5 months ago (3 children) I think you're conflating ecological conservation and political conservatism. This seems like an argument that wouldn't exist in a language that created a meaningful distinction between the two. An individual that is protecting the rights of capital to cause rapid ecological damage, is doing so by seeking to preserve the power of private capital. A leftist seeking to abolish the power of capital to conserve the environment is the radical in that case. Communism through conservatism as I think you are describing it isn't wrong, but it is at the very least confusing due to the clashing definitions of radical, conservative, and the targets of both changes and preservation of the structures. Once again for the sake of clarity Ecologic conservation, cultural/sociatal conservation ≠ economic conservatism. Sticking the terms together is kinda just confusing permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments load more comments (3 replies) [–] Hadriscus@jlai.lu 11 points 5 months ago You're playing on semantics permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (2 replies) [–] Juice@midwest.social 17 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) I read through the thread linked above. You are confusing "conservationism" with "conservative" Like we have to conserve, and so we should be "conservative". Not a terrible mix up. In any case, the debate on the left is: Planned degrowth vs. Eco-modernism. And I think it is correct to prefer a strategy of conservationism, that is degrowth, vs " keep building "productivity" which is eco-modernism. If in fact you are more attracted to the degrowth model, look into Jason Hickel. if you wanna research the other side, or feel affinity toward eco-modernism, you might check out Leigh Phillips. Here's a primer for the debate. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (1 reply) [–] Athena5898@lemmy.ml 18 points 5 months ago (1 child) I think you might have some things to work on. I wish you well on the journey of self discovery permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply)
[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 18 points 5 months ago* (2 children) What points did I not address? I agree that I'm more optimistic than you were, but I don't believe that's without base. I could describe you as overly pessimistic. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments load more comments (2 replies)
[–] chloroken@lemmy.ml 35 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (12 children) Well? Did you study up in communist theory, or are you content always getting dunked on? Also, please link us the thread where Cowbee "ignored your best points" so we can take a look at it. I'm curious to see what you're talking about. I suspect you're lying. Edit: https://lemmy.world/comment/23871382 Sigh, Cowbee painstakingly engaged with you, displayed patience and empathy and kindness, and this is the route you went. Reading your comments, you're completely and utterly clueless. You would do well to stop throwing mud at people who take time to help you parse your scattered "ideology" and instead do some reading and shut the fuck up. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 12 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] calmblue75@lemmy.ml 20 points 5 months ago* (9 children) I read through your thread with Cowbee that chloroken had listed and am still confused what you mean by a moderately conservative communist. Can you elaborate why you choose to describe a communist, essentially a person who wants to bring change, as conservative, which means to oppose change? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 9 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] calmblue75@lemmy.ml 15 points 5 months ago (6 children) Conservative doesn't mean what you think it does. Conservative means not changing the state at all. Capitalism is the status quo. Communism is something new, something untried, that resolves to break the status quo. Conserving the environment means to stop whatever actions we are doing to change it. Usually people mean stopping the destructive actions towards the environment, so it has eventually come to mean saving the environment/biodiversity, etc. That still doesn't change the meaning of the word conservative, which means upholding the prevailing state of things. If a train is heading towards a cliff, hitting the brakes is conservative in the literal sense Using your example, letting the train run is conservative, and hitting the brakes to stop it (changing the state) is radical. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] ZombieSenpai@lemmy.ml 15 points 5 months ago (3 children) I think you're conflating ecological conservation and political conservatism. This seems like an argument that wouldn't exist in a language that created a meaningful distinction between the two. An individual that is protecting the rights of capital to cause rapid ecological damage, is doing so by seeking to preserve the power of private capital. A leftist seeking to abolish the power of capital to conserve the environment is the radical in that case. Communism through conservatism as I think you are describing it isn't wrong, but it is at the very least confusing due to the clashing definitions of radical, conservative, and the targets of both changes and preservation of the structures. Once again for the sake of clarity Ecologic conservation, cultural/sociatal conservation ≠ economic conservatism. Sticking the terms together is kinda just confusing permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments load more comments (3 replies) [–] Hadriscus@jlai.lu 11 points 5 months ago You're playing on semantics permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (2 replies) [–] Juice@midwest.social 17 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) I read through the thread linked above. You are confusing "conservationism" with "conservative" Like we have to conserve, and so we should be "conservative". Not a terrible mix up. In any case, the debate on the left is: Planned degrowth vs. Eco-modernism. And I think it is correct to prefer a strategy of conservationism, that is degrowth, vs " keep building "productivity" which is eco-modernism. If in fact you are more attracted to the degrowth model, look into Jason Hickel. if you wanna research the other side, or feel affinity toward eco-modernism, you might check out Leigh Phillips. Here's a primer for the debate. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (1 reply)
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] calmblue75@lemmy.ml 20 points 5 months ago* (9 children) I read through your thread with Cowbee that chloroken had listed and am still confused what you mean by a moderately conservative communist. Can you elaborate why you choose to describe a communist, essentially a person who wants to bring change, as conservative, which means to oppose change? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 9 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] calmblue75@lemmy.ml 15 points 5 months ago (6 children) Conservative doesn't mean what you think it does. Conservative means not changing the state at all. Capitalism is the status quo. Communism is something new, something untried, that resolves to break the status quo. Conserving the environment means to stop whatever actions we are doing to change it. Usually people mean stopping the destructive actions towards the environment, so it has eventually come to mean saving the environment/biodiversity, etc. That still doesn't change the meaning of the word conservative, which means upholding the prevailing state of things. If a train is heading towards a cliff, hitting the brakes is conservative in the literal sense Using your example, letting the train run is conservative, and hitting the brakes to stop it (changing the state) is radical. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] ZombieSenpai@lemmy.ml 15 points 5 months ago (3 children) I think you're conflating ecological conservation and political conservatism. This seems like an argument that wouldn't exist in a language that created a meaningful distinction between the two. An individual that is protecting the rights of capital to cause rapid ecological damage, is doing so by seeking to preserve the power of private capital. A leftist seeking to abolish the power of capital to conserve the environment is the radical in that case. Communism through conservatism as I think you are describing it isn't wrong, but it is at the very least confusing due to the clashing definitions of radical, conservative, and the targets of both changes and preservation of the structures. Once again for the sake of clarity Ecologic conservation, cultural/sociatal conservation ≠ economic conservatism. Sticking the terms together is kinda just confusing permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments load more comments (3 replies) [–] Hadriscus@jlai.lu 11 points 5 months ago You're playing on semantics permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (2 replies) [–] Juice@midwest.social 17 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) I read through the thread linked above. You are confusing "conservationism" with "conservative" Like we have to conserve, and so we should be "conservative". Not a terrible mix up. In any case, the debate on the left is: Planned degrowth vs. Eco-modernism. And I think it is correct to prefer a strategy of conservationism, that is degrowth, vs " keep building "productivity" which is eco-modernism. If in fact you are more attracted to the degrowth model, look into Jason Hickel. if you wanna research the other side, or feel affinity toward eco-modernism, you might check out Leigh Phillips. Here's a primer for the debate. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] calmblue75@lemmy.ml 20 points 5 months ago* (9 children) I read through your thread with Cowbee that chloroken had listed and am still confused what you mean by a moderately conservative communist. Can you elaborate why you choose to describe a communist, essentially a person who wants to bring change, as conservative, which means to oppose change? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 9 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] calmblue75@lemmy.ml 15 points 5 months ago (6 children) Conservative doesn't mean what you think it does. Conservative means not changing the state at all. Capitalism is the status quo. Communism is something new, something untried, that resolves to break the status quo. Conserving the environment means to stop whatever actions we are doing to change it. Usually people mean stopping the destructive actions towards the environment, so it has eventually come to mean saving the environment/biodiversity, etc. That still doesn't change the meaning of the word conservative, which means upholding the prevailing state of things. If a train is heading towards a cliff, hitting the brakes is conservative in the literal sense Using your example, letting the train run is conservative, and hitting the brakes to stop it (changing the state) is radical. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] ZombieSenpai@lemmy.ml 15 points 5 months ago (3 children) I think you're conflating ecological conservation and political conservatism. This seems like an argument that wouldn't exist in a language that created a meaningful distinction between the two. An individual that is protecting the rights of capital to cause rapid ecological damage, is doing so by seeking to preserve the power of private capital. A leftist seeking to abolish the power of capital to conserve the environment is the radical in that case. Communism through conservatism as I think you are describing it isn't wrong, but it is at the very least confusing due to the clashing definitions of radical, conservative, and the targets of both changes and preservation of the structures. Once again for the sake of clarity Ecologic conservation, cultural/sociatal conservation ≠ economic conservatism. Sticking the terms together is kinda just confusing permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments load more comments (3 replies) [–] Hadriscus@jlai.lu 11 points 5 months ago You're playing on semantics permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (2 replies)
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] calmblue75@lemmy.ml 15 points 5 months ago (6 children) Conservative doesn't mean what you think it does. Conservative means not changing the state at all. Capitalism is the status quo. Communism is something new, something untried, that resolves to break the status quo. Conserving the environment means to stop whatever actions we are doing to change it. Usually people mean stopping the destructive actions towards the environment, so it has eventually come to mean saving the environment/biodiversity, etc. That still doesn't change the meaning of the word conservative, which means upholding the prevailing state of things. If a train is heading towards a cliff, hitting the brakes is conservative in the literal sense Using your example, letting the train run is conservative, and hitting the brakes to stop it (changing the state) is radical. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] ZombieSenpai@lemmy.ml 15 points 5 months ago (3 children) I think you're conflating ecological conservation and political conservatism. This seems like an argument that wouldn't exist in a language that created a meaningful distinction between the two. An individual that is protecting the rights of capital to cause rapid ecological damage, is doing so by seeking to preserve the power of private capital. A leftist seeking to abolish the power of capital to conserve the environment is the radical in that case. Communism through conservatism as I think you are describing it isn't wrong, but it is at the very least confusing due to the clashing definitions of radical, conservative, and the targets of both changes and preservation of the structures. Once again for the sake of clarity Ecologic conservation, cultural/sociatal conservation ≠ economic conservatism. Sticking the terms together is kinda just confusing permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments load more comments (3 replies) [–] Hadriscus@jlai.lu 11 points 5 months ago You're playing on semantics permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (1 reply)
[–] calmblue75@lemmy.ml 15 points 5 months ago (6 children) Conservative doesn't mean what you think it does. Conservative means not changing the state at all. Capitalism is the status quo. Communism is something new, something untried, that resolves to break the status quo. Conserving the environment means to stop whatever actions we are doing to change it. Usually people mean stopping the destructive actions towards the environment, so it has eventually come to mean saving the environment/biodiversity, etc. That still doesn't change the meaning of the word conservative, which means upholding the prevailing state of things. If a train is heading towards a cliff, hitting the brakes is conservative in the literal sense Using your example, letting the train run is conservative, and hitting the brakes to stop it (changing the state) is radical. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] ZombieSenpai@lemmy.ml 15 points 5 months ago (3 children) I think you're conflating ecological conservation and political conservatism. This seems like an argument that wouldn't exist in a language that created a meaningful distinction between the two. An individual that is protecting the rights of capital to cause rapid ecological damage, is doing so by seeking to preserve the power of private capital. A leftist seeking to abolish the power of capital to conserve the environment is the radical in that case. Communism through conservatism as I think you are describing it isn't wrong, but it is at the very least confusing due to the clashing definitions of radical, conservative, and the targets of both changes and preservation of the structures. Once again for the sake of clarity Ecologic conservation, cultural/sociatal conservation ≠ economic conservatism. Sticking the terms together is kinda just confusing permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments load more comments (3 replies) [–] Hadriscus@jlai.lu 11 points 5 months ago You're playing on semantics permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (1 reply)
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] ZombieSenpai@lemmy.ml 15 points 5 months ago (3 children) I think you're conflating ecological conservation and political conservatism. This seems like an argument that wouldn't exist in a language that created a meaningful distinction between the two. An individual that is protecting the rights of capital to cause rapid ecological damage, is doing so by seeking to preserve the power of private capital. A leftist seeking to abolish the power of capital to conserve the environment is the radical in that case. Communism through conservatism as I think you are describing it isn't wrong, but it is at the very least confusing due to the clashing definitions of radical, conservative, and the targets of both changes and preservation of the structures. Once again for the sake of clarity Ecologic conservation, cultural/sociatal conservation ≠ economic conservatism. Sticking the terms together is kinda just confusing permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments load more comments (3 replies) [–] Hadriscus@jlai.lu 11 points 5 months ago You're playing on semantics permalink fedilink source parent
[–] ZombieSenpai@lemmy.ml 15 points 5 months ago (3 children) I think you're conflating ecological conservation and political conservatism. This seems like an argument that wouldn't exist in a language that created a meaningful distinction between the two. An individual that is protecting the rights of capital to cause rapid ecological damage, is doing so by seeking to preserve the power of private capital. A leftist seeking to abolish the power of capital to conserve the environment is the radical in that case. Communism through conservatism as I think you are describing it isn't wrong, but it is at the very least confusing due to the clashing definitions of radical, conservative, and the targets of both changes and preservation of the structures. Once again for the sake of clarity Ecologic conservation, cultural/sociatal conservation ≠ economic conservatism. Sticking the terms together is kinda just confusing permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments load more comments (3 replies)
[–] Hadriscus@jlai.lu 11 points 5 months ago You're playing on semantics permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Juice@midwest.social 17 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) I read through the thread linked above. You are confusing "conservationism" with "conservative" Like we have to conserve, and so we should be "conservative". Not a terrible mix up. In any case, the debate on the left is: Planned degrowth vs. Eco-modernism. And I think it is correct to prefer a strategy of conservationism, that is degrowth, vs " keep building "productivity" which is eco-modernism. If in fact you are more attracted to the degrowth model, look into Jason Hickel. if you wanna research the other side, or feel affinity toward eco-modernism, you might check out Leigh Phillips. Here's a primer for the debate. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Athena5898@lemmy.ml 18 points 5 months ago (1 child) I think you might have some things to work on. I wish you well on the journey of self discovery permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply)
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Count042@lemmy.ml 25 points 5 months ago* (31 children) You literally supported Rhodesia. You don't get to make moral arguments that anyone takes seriously and you sure don't get to criticize others arguments. Yours led you to support Rhodesia. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 31 child comments replies: [–] sharkfucker420@lemmy.ml 21 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (3 children) Holy shit? There are Rhodesia apologists on Lemmy? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] SpookyBogMonster@lemmy.ml 10 points 5 months ago It's like finding a legendary pokemon, if a pokemon said racial slurs permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (2 replies) [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 16 points 5 months ago (25 children) you do support the fascist regime in Ukraine tho, or gonna pretend that's also a funny story fash? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 25 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] m532@lemmy.ml 14 points 5 months ago authoritarian state-capitalist regimes Dictionary: libspeak to english non-western socialist governments permalink fedilink source parent [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] AntiOutsideAktion@lemmy.ml 12 points 5 months ago You fool! Once again you have defeated yourself by exceeding my attention span! permalink fedilink source parent [–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 12 points 5 months ago* Nice, another vapid reply from our resident fascist troll. The reply wasn't meant to convince you of anything since we all know exactly what you stand for. It's to educate people on the misinformation you spread here and how to address it. permalink fedilink source parent [–] EmmiLime@lemmy.ml 11 points 5 months ago someone that needs to read more theory 😏 Yeah you, however in your case a good start would be needing to be able to read anything since you seem to be engaging and arguing with your eyes closed permalink fedilink source parent [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) Do you earnestly think insult is any way to motivate someone to revisit a body of theory they've already engaged with? In absence of any recommendation on your part, I have very little reason to revisit what I've come to disagree with, beyond making sure that my understanding is still correct and seeing if there's anything useful for me. What "anarchist power level" do I need in order to have a conversation with you? How do you go about gaining comrades if this is how you treat those asking for recommendations? permalink fedilink source parent [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 9 points 5 months ago Cats can be flipped to dogs if you don't give a shit what's real, but most people do. permalink fedilink source parent [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago (6 children) Sure, a lot has indeed happened. I don't think it invalidates my question. Vanguards do not proclaim themselves as such, they become them through popular support from the people. This is not mere tautology, a vanguard cannot succeed in its aims alone, it requires the rest of the proletariat to rally behind it and legitimize it. It cannot be self-legitimizing. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments load more comments (6 replies) load more comments (12 replies) load more comments (1 reply) [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 18 points 5 months ago (55 children) Can you explain what I've posted that's fanfiction? I won't deny that I often copy and paste replies I've already written, as most topics discussed aren't genuinely new and I've usually discussed them before and see no need to artisinally craft each response, but I do take the allegations of fan-fiction seriously. Do you have an example? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 55 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 12 points 5 months ago (11 children) Marxist theory is unconnected to reality, yet Marxists have historically been so good at understanding and changing reality that you complain about that too🤔 permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 11 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 12 points 5 months ago (9 children) Lenin wrote his most critical theory before the Bolsheviks succeeded in establishing socialism, for example, Imperialism, the Current Highest Stage of Capitalism was published in 1916, and built on his previous studies of imperialism via the Marxist method. Marxism-Leninism is the living Marxism carried forward to the era of imperialism, and is not a deviation from Marxism but a continuation of it. Marx never became a reactionary, it was the anarchist faction that failed to counter Marx and was thus expelled from the First International. Marx has no weaknesses with respect to materialism as far as I know. It would help your points tremendously if you gave any examples of the flaws Marx supposedly has, or the ways Marxism-Leninism is a deviation, rather than a continuation. Instead, this seems to follow your strategy of subjectivism, just labeling things you don't like as counter-revolutionary without critically analyzing them. If you could verbalize how and why you disagree with Marxism-Leninism and Marxism, it would help your arguments enormously, as it stands there's 0 chance you're convincing anyone here, who already largely agrees with Marxism-Leninism, or anyone looking on who can see the MLs bring receipts while you refuse to provide any. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 9 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 9 points 5 months ago* (5 children) You did not provide arguments, you provided categorical declarations without backing them up or contextualizing them. Do you not see how enormously unproductive this is for bringing someone over to your side? Asserting that I simply "don't understand" your supposed arguments is also not going to hold any water, everyone can see plain as day that I have carefully responded exactly to what you've been declaring. As for materialism being disproven, again, you don't explain how or why, you just say that it has been, and reference "a hundred plus years of literature" without giving any examples, or explaining how it's supposedly wrong. Who are you trying to convince? Even for the sake of hypothetical, even if it was wrong, if your goal was to convince anyone of your argument, you've given them absolutely nothing to go off of to see if you're correct. All you've done is legitimize Marx, Lenin, and myself with this level of logic. As for Lenin's theory, you still haven't actually attacked it. You made the claim that it was all post-hoc, and when this was proven false, you deflected. This is just running away from the argument. I ask you again: for what purpose are you commenting? Is this how you try to gain comrades in real life? Do you even try to do so? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 9 points 5 months ago (3 children) Stalin, by his own admission, added very, very little to Marxism-Leninism. Marxism-Leninism is, at its core, laid out by Marx and Lenin. If you mean any retrospective analysis is "post-hoc justification," then this is absurd as retrospection must be post-hoc. If you mean most arguments in general are post-hoc, then you're ignoring the core of Marxism-Leninism that predates socialist states. I've been arguing in good faith the entire time, asking you over and over for actual arguments and reading, and you respond with insult. Are you aware of how this presents to onlookers? Do you think you're winning over others? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments load more comments (3 replies) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (3 replies) load more comments (1 reply) [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 5 months ago (39 children) What "obvious reasons?" The fact that socialist theory and history from socialists actually building socialism happens to back up their reasoning in most cases? There's also critique and discussion of problems in existing socialism coming from AES countries as well. This is an utterly self-defeating argument that only validates those most removed from the actual practice of building socialism. Again, to stress, your point is that we should inherently distrust those building socialism in real life, and only accept theory from those that are utterely disengaged from practice. Further, there's no critical examination of the merits of socialist theory and history produced by socialist countries on your part, the very fact that they are produced by the people actively building socialism is enough to discredit them in your views. Can you not see the logical trap? If you succeeded in building socialism and spoke about your experiences, successes, and failures, you would have to discredit yourself as fanfiction! Should the merit of theory not be tested through practice? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 39 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 9 points 5 months ago (19 children) Usurped control of the state from...who? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 19 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 5 months ago (17 children) The provisional government was a liberal, pro-capitalist government. The counter-revolutionary thing to do would be to protect the provisional government. Further, it was not a black and white case of the Bolsheviks losing elections, the various parties of the time formed coalitions, which legitimized the Bolshevik coalition, as well as the peasant elections that you're ignoring. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 17 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago (15 children) Nope, no historical inaccuracies. You're referring to the Right-SRs, who had recently split from the Left-SRs. The rural socialists banded together with the Bolsheviks in a coalition. You're also ignoring that the workers and peasants already saw the provisional government as illegitimate, backing the Soviets. The anarchists may have had what they believed were good ideas, but the proletariat and peasantry largely disagreed and agreed with the socialists, who coalesced around the Bolsheviks. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 15 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 9 points 5 months ago (10 children) Why would the Soviets overthrowing the capitalist government "invalidate the very idea they stood for?" The Soviets stood for worker and peasant power. They succeeded in establishing that very concept and turning it into concrete political reality. As for the idea of the Bolsheviks "purging people," you are referring to the ensuing Civil War, where the workers and peasants joined the Bolsheviks and the Red Army. Even anarchists largely joined the Red Army to fight off the Whites. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 10 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago (7 children) Nothing I have said is historically inaccurate. The Bolsheviks opposed cadets, mensheviks, and other groups that wished to retain the Tsar's colonies, wanted to prolong the war, and opposed Soviet power. The Soviets were a connected system, itself a state. Overthrowing the provisional government and solidifying the Soviet state as the only state does not oppose their purpose in the slightest, and it was a decision democratically approved. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 7 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago (5 children) I have read historically accurate accounts, though you define historical accuracy by it not being written by anyone succeeding. I've also asked for sources, and you haven't brought any beyond linking the anarchist library. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] calmblue75@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago (1 child) You still haven't provided any sources permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Oppopity@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago Yes but they started their sentences with "more historical inaccuracies" and "more fan-fiction" for the fifth time now and surely that counts for something. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (3 replies) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (2 replies) load more comments (4 replies) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 9 points 5 months ago (17 children) I think the texts written by socialists building socialism are valuable insights into the actual struggles run into when building socialism. I also believe labeling them "counter-revolutionaries" without demonstrating how and why this is the case is an entirely ineffective means of argument, I've already made it clear that I consider socialist states to be real, and I back up those claims with historical and theoretical evidence when needed. Simply saying "no" is not an argument, and telling me I'm removed from praxis and reality when I know this isn't the case is naked Ad Hominem. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 17 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (16 children) I agree that simple claims do not make a state socialist. I never made claims to the contrary. What makes a state socialist is proletarian control of the state, and public ownership as the principal aspect of the economy. All practical reality, contrary to your position, backs up this position. State capitalism refers to a bourgeois economy with heavy state planning, yet capitalist control of the state and the social surplus. Think the Republic of Korea, Singapore, etc. The NEP, China's and Vietnam's socialist market economies, all of these are largely differentiated from state capitalism through the class character of the state, and having public ownership as the principal aspect of the economy. Calling these "state capitalist" despite clear differences with the ROK, Singapore, etc. in form, direction, and results erases class from the state. Socialist planned economies take this further, having been farther along in eliminating private property. The DPRK, Cuba, and mid-late USSR are all examples of this form of socialist economy. This is where it makes even less sense to describe these as "state capitalism," you're just using capitalism to refer to industrial production at this point. Such a clear mislabeling makes utter mud of how we view socialism. This is not mere phraseology, but a practical investigation of what makes a class, which is defined by relation to ownership of the means of production. Administrators in socialism are not a "tiny ruling elite," they are a subsection of the broader proletariat, and share equal ownership of the means of production in practical terms, not merely formal phrasemongering. If the CPSU were a "tiny ruling elite," they certainly sucked at being so! Certainly you can see the clear difference between salaried workers and capital owners entitling themselves to the near entirety of the social surplus? Regarding the Russian revolution, I have read a great deal about it, as well as the period of early socialist construction, industrialization, collectivization, preparation for World War II, and the post-War economy, including reforms that weakened the socialist system and contributed partially towards its disollution. Lenin and the Bolsheviks were by no means counter-revolutionaries, even if you considered the NEP to be state capitalism, they abolished this and collectivized the economy. There's absolutely nothing backing what you've claimed. The Germans allowed Lenin to go to overthrow the Russian government precisely because they sought chaos, and even then it was dangerous for Lenin to do so as many people hated the idea. He had to travel covertly. Regarding the Ad Hominem, no, I did no such thing. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 16 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 5 months ago (11 children) In socialist states, ownership and control is held in the hands of the proletariat. Delegation and administration is built up precisely due to the necessity of administrative labor, this does not make salaried administrators a separate owner class. Teachers and principals are both proletarian, even if the form of labor is different, even if the pay is different, because they share the same class interests and relations to the means of production and distribution. What makes a society socialist is proletarian control of the state, and public ownership as the principal aspect of the economy. Plain and simple. Calling entirely different economic systems capitalist as a means to discredit socialism is a subjectivist argument, it doesn't get us any closer to the truth. As for me "disagreeing with historical fact," I'd love an explanation of how I do that. You do seem to admit to trying to convince me, so perhaps you could play ball and actually give me some examples, arguments, and literature? I'm utterly uninterested in subjectivist declarations devoid of any actual substance, without actual examples and arguments I couldn't even be convinced by you if I wanted to be. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 11 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 11 points 5 months ago (4 children) Monopolizing state power in the hands of the working classes is putting the working classes in power. The state is not outside of class struggle, but within it, and arises from it. None of my logic has been circular. As for your strategy, you reveal your utter disdain for actual organizing work when you claim you would be "doing my research for me." I am openly inviting you to share what you think are good ideas, and instead you insult me. This attitude is aristocratic, the workers are not good enough for your knowledge, they just have to trust whatever it is you say, and if they don't, they are not worthy. I never claimed to be your boss, nor am I a part of a vanguard party, as no party can declare itself as such. If you do org work in real life, I suggest you try to actually engage with those who disagree with you, or else you'll have an extremely difficult time gaining new members. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 5 months ago (3 children) None of this was ad-hominem. I did not say your claims were wrong because you have an aristocratic viewpoint, I explained your aristocratic attitude and how that impacts potential org-work. Revolution is definitely praxis, and I'm not sure what you mean by "armchair communist," I organize in real life. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments load more comments (3 replies) load more comments (6 replies) load more comments (4 replies) load more comments (1 reply) [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) I'd believe it if I were a bystander, povoq is doing this extremely well if he wants to validate my points uncontested. As funny as it would be, I am not secretly a solarpunk admin. Edit: Edie is clearly joking, for whoever is downvoting it. Edie isn't actually accusing me of making an alt to argue with. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (2 replies) [–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 24 points 5 months ago go home fash permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Count042@lemmy.ml 25 points 5 months ago* (31 children) You literally supported Rhodesia. You don't get to make moral arguments that anyone takes seriously and you sure don't get to criticize others arguments. Yours led you to support Rhodesia. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 31 child comments replies: [–] sharkfucker420@lemmy.ml 21 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (3 children) Holy shit? There are Rhodesia apologists on Lemmy? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] SpookyBogMonster@lemmy.ml 10 points 5 months ago It's like finding a legendary pokemon, if a pokemon said racial slurs permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (2 replies) [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 16 points 5 months ago (25 children) you do support the fascist regime in Ukraine tho, or gonna pretend that's also a funny story fash? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 25 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] m532@lemmy.ml 14 points 5 months ago authoritarian state-capitalist regimes Dictionary: libspeak to english non-western socialist governments permalink fedilink source parent [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] AntiOutsideAktion@lemmy.ml 12 points 5 months ago You fool! Once again you have defeated yourself by exceeding my attention span! permalink fedilink source parent [–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 12 points 5 months ago* Nice, another vapid reply from our resident fascist troll. The reply wasn't meant to convince you of anything since we all know exactly what you stand for. It's to educate people on the misinformation you spread here and how to address it. permalink fedilink source parent [–] EmmiLime@lemmy.ml 11 points 5 months ago someone that needs to read more theory 😏 Yeah you, however in your case a good start would be needing to be able to read anything since you seem to be engaging and arguing with your eyes closed permalink fedilink source parent [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) Do you earnestly think insult is any way to motivate someone to revisit a body of theory they've already engaged with? In absence of any recommendation on your part, I have very little reason to revisit what I've come to disagree with, beyond making sure that my understanding is still correct and seeing if there's anything useful for me. What "anarchist power level" do I need in order to have a conversation with you? How do you go about gaining comrades if this is how you treat those asking for recommendations? permalink fedilink source parent [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 9 points 5 months ago Cats can be flipped to dogs if you don't give a shit what's real, but most people do. permalink fedilink source parent [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago (6 children) Sure, a lot has indeed happened. I don't think it invalidates my question. Vanguards do not proclaim themselves as such, they become them through popular support from the people. This is not mere tautology, a vanguard cannot succeed in its aims alone, it requires the rest of the proletariat to rally behind it and legitimize it. It cannot be self-legitimizing. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments load more comments (6 replies) load more comments (12 replies) load more comments (1 reply)
[–] sharkfucker420@lemmy.ml 21 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (3 children) Holy shit? There are Rhodesia apologists on Lemmy? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] SpookyBogMonster@lemmy.ml 10 points 5 months ago It's like finding a legendary pokemon, if a pokemon said racial slurs permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (2 replies)
[–] SpookyBogMonster@lemmy.ml 10 points 5 months ago It's like finding a legendary pokemon, if a pokemon said racial slurs permalink fedilink source parent
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 16 points 5 months ago (25 children) you do support the fascist regime in Ukraine tho, or gonna pretend that's also a funny story fash? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 25 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] m532@lemmy.ml 14 points 5 months ago authoritarian state-capitalist regimes Dictionary: libspeak to english non-western socialist governments permalink fedilink source parent [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] AntiOutsideAktion@lemmy.ml 12 points 5 months ago You fool! Once again you have defeated yourself by exceeding my attention span! permalink fedilink source parent [–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 12 points 5 months ago* Nice, another vapid reply from our resident fascist troll. The reply wasn't meant to convince you of anything since we all know exactly what you stand for. It's to educate people on the misinformation you spread here and how to address it. permalink fedilink source parent [–] EmmiLime@lemmy.ml 11 points 5 months ago someone that needs to read more theory 😏 Yeah you, however in your case a good start would be needing to be able to read anything since you seem to be engaging and arguing with your eyes closed permalink fedilink source parent [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) Do you earnestly think insult is any way to motivate someone to revisit a body of theory they've already engaged with? In absence of any recommendation on your part, I have very little reason to revisit what I've come to disagree with, beyond making sure that my understanding is still correct and seeing if there's anything useful for me. What "anarchist power level" do I need in order to have a conversation with you? How do you go about gaining comrades if this is how you treat those asking for recommendations? permalink fedilink source parent [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 9 points 5 months ago Cats can be flipped to dogs if you don't give a shit what's real, but most people do. permalink fedilink source parent [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago (6 children) Sure, a lot has indeed happened. I don't think it invalidates my question. Vanguards do not proclaim themselves as such, they become them through popular support from the people. This is not mere tautology, a vanguard cannot succeed in its aims alone, it requires the rest of the proletariat to rally behind it and legitimize it. It cannot be self-legitimizing. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments load more comments (6 replies) load more comments (12 replies)
[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 16 points 5 months ago (25 children) you do support the fascist regime in Ukraine tho, or gonna pretend that's also a funny story fash? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 25 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] m532@lemmy.ml 14 points 5 months ago authoritarian state-capitalist regimes Dictionary: libspeak to english non-western socialist governments permalink fedilink source parent [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] AntiOutsideAktion@lemmy.ml 12 points 5 months ago You fool! Once again you have defeated yourself by exceeding my attention span! permalink fedilink source parent [–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 12 points 5 months ago* Nice, another vapid reply from our resident fascist troll. The reply wasn't meant to convince you of anything since we all know exactly what you stand for. It's to educate people on the misinformation you spread here and how to address it. permalink fedilink source parent [–] EmmiLime@lemmy.ml 11 points 5 months ago someone that needs to read more theory 😏 Yeah you, however in your case a good start would be needing to be able to read anything since you seem to be engaging and arguing with your eyes closed permalink fedilink source parent [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) Do you earnestly think insult is any way to motivate someone to revisit a body of theory they've already engaged with? In absence of any recommendation on your part, I have very little reason to revisit what I've come to disagree with, beyond making sure that my understanding is still correct and seeing if there's anything useful for me. What "anarchist power level" do I need in order to have a conversation with you? How do you go about gaining comrades if this is how you treat those asking for recommendations? permalink fedilink source parent [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 9 points 5 months ago Cats can be flipped to dogs if you don't give a shit what's real, but most people do. permalink fedilink source parent [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago (6 children) Sure, a lot has indeed happened. I don't think it invalidates my question. Vanguards do not proclaim themselves as such, they become them through popular support from the people. This is not mere tautology, a vanguard cannot succeed in its aims alone, it requires the rest of the proletariat to rally behind it and legitimize it. It cannot be self-legitimizing. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments load more comments (6 replies) load more comments (12 replies)
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] m532@lemmy.ml 14 points 5 months ago authoritarian state-capitalist regimes Dictionary: libspeak to english non-western socialist governments permalink fedilink source parent
[–] m532@lemmy.ml 14 points 5 months ago authoritarian state-capitalist regimes Dictionary: libspeak to english non-western socialist governments permalink fedilink source parent
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] AntiOutsideAktion@lemmy.ml 12 points 5 months ago You fool! Once again you have defeated yourself by exceeding my attention span! permalink fedilink source parent [–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 12 points 5 months ago* Nice, another vapid reply from our resident fascist troll. The reply wasn't meant to convince you of anything since we all know exactly what you stand for. It's to educate people on the misinformation you spread here and how to address it. permalink fedilink source parent [–] EmmiLime@lemmy.ml 11 points 5 months ago someone that needs to read more theory 😏 Yeah you, however in your case a good start would be needing to be able to read anything since you seem to be engaging and arguing with your eyes closed permalink fedilink source parent
[–] AntiOutsideAktion@lemmy.ml 12 points 5 months ago You fool! Once again you have defeated yourself by exceeding my attention span! permalink fedilink source parent
[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 12 points 5 months ago* Nice, another vapid reply from our resident fascist troll. The reply wasn't meant to convince you of anything since we all know exactly what you stand for. It's to educate people on the misinformation you spread here and how to address it. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] EmmiLime@lemmy.ml 11 points 5 months ago someone that needs to read more theory 😏 Yeah you, however in your case a good start would be needing to be able to read anything since you seem to be engaging and arguing with your eyes closed permalink fedilink source parent
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) Do you earnestly think insult is any way to motivate someone to revisit a body of theory they've already engaged with? In absence of any recommendation on your part, I have very little reason to revisit what I've come to disagree with, beyond making sure that my understanding is still correct and seeing if there's anything useful for me. What "anarchist power level" do I need in order to have a conversation with you? How do you go about gaining comrades if this is how you treat those asking for recommendations? permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) Do you earnestly think insult is any way to motivate someone to revisit a body of theory they've already engaged with? In absence of any recommendation on your part, I have very little reason to revisit what I've come to disagree with, beyond making sure that my understanding is still correct and seeing if there's anything useful for me. What "anarchist power level" do I need in order to have a conversation with you? How do you go about gaining comrades if this is how you treat those asking for recommendations? permalink fedilink source parent
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 9 points 5 months ago Cats can be flipped to dogs if you don't give a shit what's real, but most people do. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 9 points 5 months ago Cats can be flipped to dogs if you don't give a shit what's real, but most people do. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago (6 children) Sure, a lot has indeed happened. I don't think it invalidates my question. Vanguards do not proclaim themselves as such, they become them through popular support from the people. This is not mere tautology, a vanguard cannot succeed in its aims alone, it requires the rest of the proletariat to rally behind it and legitimize it. It cannot be self-legitimizing. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments load more comments (6 replies)
[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago (6 children) Sure, a lot has indeed happened. I don't think it invalidates my question. Vanguards do not proclaim themselves as such, they become them through popular support from the people. This is not mere tautology, a vanguard cannot succeed in its aims alone, it requires the rest of the proletariat to rally behind it and legitimize it. It cannot be self-legitimizing. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments load more comments (6 replies)
[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 18 points 5 months ago (55 children) Can you explain what I've posted that's fanfiction? I won't deny that I often copy and paste replies I've already written, as most topics discussed aren't genuinely new and I've usually discussed them before and see no need to artisinally craft each response, but I do take the allegations of fan-fiction seriously. Do you have an example? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 55 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 12 points 5 months ago (11 children) Marxist theory is unconnected to reality, yet Marxists have historically been so good at understanding and changing reality that you complain about that too🤔 permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 11 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 12 points 5 months ago (9 children) Lenin wrote his most critical theory before the Bolsheviks succeeded in establishing socialism, for example, Imperialism, the Current Highest Stage of Capitalism was published in 1916, and built on his previous studies of imperialism via the Marxist method. Marxism-Leninism is the living Marxism carried forward to the era of imperialism, and is not a deviation from Marxism but a continuation of it. Marx never became a reactionary, it was the anarchist faction that failed to counter Marx and was thus expelled from the First International. Marx has no weaknesses with respect to materialism as far as I know. It would help your points tremendously if you gave any examples of the flaws Marx supposedly has, or the ways Marxism-Leninism is a deviation, rather than a continuation. Instead, this seems to follow your strategy of subjectivism, just labeling things you don't like as counter-revolutionary without critically analyzing them. If you could verbalize how and why you disagree with Marxism-Leninism and Marxism, it would help your arguments enormously, as it stands there's 0 chance you're convincing anyone here, who already largely agrees with Marxism-Leninism, or anyone looking on who can see the MLs bring receipts while you refuse to provide any. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 9 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 9 points 5 months ago* (5 children) You did not provide arguments, you provided categorical declarations without backing them up or contextualizing them. Do you not see how enormously unproductive this is for bringing someone over to your side? Asserting that I simply "don't understand" your supposed arguments is also not going to hold any water, everyone can see plain as day that I have carefully responded exactly to what you've been declaring. As for materialism being disproven, again, you don't explain how or why, you just say that it has been, and reference "a hundred plus years of literature" without giving any examples, or explaining how it's supposedly wrong. Who are you trying to convince? Even for the sake of hypothetical, even if it was wrong, if your goal was to convince anyone of your argument, you've given them absolutely nothing to go off of to see if you're correct. All you've done is legitimize Marx, Lenin, and myself with this level of logic. As for Lenin's theory, you still haven't actually attacked it. You made the claim that it was all post-hoc, and when this was proven false, you deflected. This is just running away from the argument. I ask you again: for what purpose are you commenting? Is this how you try to gain comrades in real life? Do you even try to do so? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 9 points 5 months ago (3 children) Stalin, by his own admission, added very, very little to Marxism-Leninism. Marxism-Leninism is, at its core, laid out by Marx and Lenin. If you mean any retrospective analysis is "post-hoc justification," then this is absurd as retrospection must be post-hoc. If you mean most arguments in general are post-hoc, then you're ignoring the core of Marxism-Leninism that predates socialist states. I've been arguing in good faith the entire time, asking you over and over for actual arguments and reading, and you respond with insult. Are you aware of how this presents to onlookers? Do you think you're winning over others? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments load more comments (3 replies) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (3 replies) load more comments (1 reply) [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 5 months ago (39 children) What "obvious reasons?" The fact that socialist theory and history from socialists actually building socialism happens to back up their reasoning in most cases? There's also critique and discussion of problems in existing socialism coming from AES countries as well. This is an utterly self-defeating argument that only validates those most removed from the actual practice of building socialism. Again, to stress, your point is that we should inherently distrust those building socialism in real life, and only accept theory from those that are utterely disengaged from practice. Further, there's no critical examination of the merits of socialist theory and history produced by socialist countries on your part, the very fact that they are produced by the people actively building socialism is enough to discredit them in your views. Can you not see the logical trap? If you succeeded in building socialism and spoke about your experiences, successes, and failures, you would have to discredit yourself as fanfiction! Should the merit of theory not be tested through practice? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 39 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 9 points 5 months ago (19 children) Usurped control of the state from...who? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 19 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 5 months ago (17 children) The provisional government was a liberal, pro-capitalist government. The counter-revolutionary thing to do would be to protect the provisional government. Further, it was not a black and white case of the Bolsheviks losing elections, the various parties of the time formed coalitions, which legitimized the Bolshevik coalition, as well as the peasant elections that you're ignoring. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 17 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago (15 children) Nope, no historical inaccuracies. You're referring to the Right-SRs, who had recently split from the Left-SRs. The rural socialists banded together with the Bolsheviks in a coalition. You're also ignoring that the workers and peasants already saw the provisional government as illegitimate, backing the Soviets. The anarchists may have had what they believed were good ideas, but the proletariat and peasantry largely disagreed and agreed with the socialists, who coalesced around the Bolsheviks. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 15 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 9 points 5 months ago (10 children) Why would the Soviets overthrowing the capitalist government "invalidate the very idea they stood for?" The Soviets stood for worker and peasant power. They succeeded in establishing that very concept and turning it into concrete political reality. As for the idea of the Bolsheviks "purging people," you are referring to the ensuing Civil War, where the workers and peasants joined the Bolsheviks and the Red Army. Even anarchists largely joined the Red Army to fight off the Whites. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 10 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago (7 children) Nothing I have said is historically inaccurate. The Bolsheviks opposed cadets, mensheviks, and other groups that wished to retain the Tsar's colonies, wanted to prolong the war, and opposed Soviet power. The Soviets were a connected system, itself a state. Overthrowing the provisional government and solidifying the Soviet state as the only state does not oppose their purpose in the slightest, and it was a decision democratically approved. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 7 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago (5 children) I have read historically accurate accounts, though you define historical accuracy by it not being written by anyone succeeding. I've also asked for sources, and you haven't brought any beyond linking the anarchist library. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] calmblue75@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago (1 child) You still haven't provided any sources permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Oppopity@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago Yes but they started their sentences with "more historical inaccuracies" and "more fan-fiction" for the fifth time now and surely that counts for something. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (3 replies) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (2 replies) load more comments (4 replies) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 9 points 5 months ago (17 children) I think the texts written by socialists building socialism are valuable insights into the actual struggles run into when building socialism. I also believe labeling them "counter-revolutionaries" without demonstrating how and why this is the case is an entirely ineffective means of argument, I've already made it clear that I consider socialist states to be real, and I back up those claims with historical and theoretical evidence when needed. Simply saying "no" is not an argument, and telling me I'm removed from praxis and reality when I know this isn't the case is naked Ad Hominem. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 17 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (16 children) I agree that simple claims do not make a state socialist. I never made claims to the contrary. What makes a state socialist is proletarian control of the state, and public ownership as the principal aspect of the economy. All practical reality, contrary to your position, backs up this position. State capitalism refers to a bourgeois economy with heavy state planning, yet capitalist control of the state and the social surplus. Think the Republic of Korea, Singapore, etc. The NEP, China's and Vietnam's socialist market economies, all of these are largely differentiated from state capitalism through the class character of the state, and having public ownership as the principal aspect of the economy. Calling these "state capitalist" despite clear differences with the ROK, Singapore, etc. in form, direction, and results erases class from the state. Socialist planned economies take this further, having been farther along in eliminating private property. The DPRK, Cuba, and mid-late USSR are all examples of this form of socialist economy. This is where it makes even less sense to describe these as "state capitalism," you're just using capitalism to refer to industrial production at this point. Such a clear mislabeling makes utter mud of how we view socialism. This is not mere phraseology, but a practical investigation of what makes a class, which is defined by relation to ownership of the means of production. Administrators in socialism are not a "tiny ruling elite," they are a subsection of the broader proletariat, and share equal ownership of the means of production in practical terms, not merely formal phrasemongering. If the CPSU were a "tiny ruling elite," they certainly sucked at being so! Certainly you can see the clear difference between salaried workers and capital owners entitling themselves to the near entirety of the social surplus? Regarding the Russian revolution, I have read a great deal about it, as well as the period of early socialist construction, industrialization, collectivization, preparation for World War II, and the post-War economy, including reforms that weakened the socialist system and contributed partially towards its disollution. Lenin and the Bolsheviks were by no means counter-revolutionaries, even if you considered the NEP to be state capitalism, they abolished this and collectivized the economy. There's absolutely nothing backing what you've claimed. The Germans allowed Lenin to go to overthrow the Russian government precisely because they sought chaos, and even then it was dangerous for Lenin to do so as many people hated the idea. He had to travel covertly. Regarding the Ad Hominem, no, I did no such thing. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 16 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 5 months ago (11 children) In socialist states, ownership and control is held in the hands of the proletariat. Delegation and administration is built up precisely due to the necessity of administrative labor, this does not make salaried administrators a separate owner class. Teachers and principals are both proletarian, even if the form of labor is different, even if the pay is different, because they share the same class interests and relations to the means of production and distribution. What makes a society socialist is proletarian control of the state, and public ownership as the principal aspect of the economy. Plain and simple. Calling entirely different economic systems capitalist as a means to discredit socialism is a subjectivist argument, it doesn't get us any closer to the truth. As for me "disagreeing with historical fact," I'd love an explanation of how I do that. You do seem to admit to trying to convince me, so perhaps you could play ball and actually give me some examples, arguments, and literature? I'm utterly uninterested in subjectivist declarations devoid of any actual substance, without actual examples and arguments I couldn't even be convinced by you if I wanted to be. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 11 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 11 points 5 months ago (4 children) Monopolizing state power in the hands of the working classes is putting the working classes in power. The state is not outside of class struggle, but within it, and arises from it. None of my logic has been circular. As for your strategy, you reveal your utter disdain for actual organizing work when you claim you would be "doing my research for me." I am openly inviting you to share what you think are good ideas, and instead you insult me. This attitude is aristocratic, the workers are not good enough for your knowledge, they just have to trust whatever it is you say, and if they don't, they are not worthy. I never claimed to be your boss, nor am I a part of a vanguard party, as no party can declare itself as such. If you do org work in real life, I suggest you try to actually engage with those who disagree with you, or else you'll have an extremely difficult time gaining new members. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 5 months ago (3 children) None of this was ad-hominem. I did not say your claims were wrong because you have an aristocratic viewpoint, I explained your aristocratic attitude and how that impacts potential org-work. Revolution is definitely praxis, and I'm not sure what you mean by "armchair communist," I organize in real life. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments load more comments (3 replies) load more comments (6 replies) load more comments (4 replies) load more comments (1 reply) [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) I'd believe it if I were a bystander, povoq is doing this extremely well if he wants to validate my points uncontested. As funny as it would be, I am not secretly a solarpunk admin. Edit: Edie is clearly joking, for whoever is downvoting it. Edie isn't actually accusing me of making an alt to argue with. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (2 replies)
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 12 points 5 months ago (11 children) Marxist theory is unconnected to reality, yet Marxists have historically been so good at understanding and changing reality that you complain about that too🤔 permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 11 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 12 points 5 months ago (9 children) Lenin wrote his most critical theory before the Bolsheviks succeeded in establishing socialism, for example, Imperialism, the Current Highest Stage of Capitalism was published in 1916, and built on his previous studies of imperialism via the Marxist method. Marxism-Leninism is the living Marxism carried forward to the era of imperialism, and is not a deviation from Marxism but a continuation of it. Marx never became a reactionary, it was the anarchist faction that failed to counter Marx and was thus expelled from the First International. Marx has no weaknesses with respect to materialism as far as I know. It would help your points tremendously if you gave any examples of the flaws Marx supposedly has, or the ways Marxism-Leninism is a deviation, rather than a continuation. Instead, this seems to follow your strategy of subjectivism, just labeling things you don't like as counter-revolutionary without critically analyzing them. If you could verbalize how and why you disagree with Marxism-Leninism and Marxism, it would help your arguments enormously, as it stands there's 0 chance you're convincing anyone here, who already largely agrees with Marxism-Leninism, or anyone looking on who can see the MLs bring receipts while you refuse to provide any. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 9 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 9 points 5 months ago* (5 children) You did not provide arguments, you provided categorical declarations without backing them up or contextualizing them. Do you not see how enormously unproductive this is for bringing someone over to your side? Asserting that I simply "don't understand" your supposed arguments is also not going to hold any water, everyone can see plain as day that I have carefully responded exactly to what you've been declaring. As for materialism being disproven, again, you don't explain how or why, you just say that it has been, and reference "a hundred plus years of literature" without giving any examples, or explaining how it's supposedly wrong. Who are you trying to convince? Even for the sake of hypothetical, even if it was wrong, if your goal was to convince anyone of your argument, you've given them absolutely nothing to go off of to see if you're correct. All you've done is legitimize Marx, Lenin, and myself with this level of logic. As for Lenin's theory, you still haven't actually attacked it. You made the claim that it was all post-hoc, and when this was proven false, you deflected. This is just running away from the argument. I ask you again: for what purpose are you commenting? Is this how you try to gain comrades in real life? Do you even try to do so? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 9 points 5 months ago (3 children) Stalin, by his own admission, added very, very little to Marxism-Leninism. Marxism-Leninism is, at its core, laid out by Marx and Lenin. If you mean any retrospective analysis is "post-hoc justification," then this is absurd as retrospection must be post-hoc. If you mean most arguments in general are post-hoc, then you're ignoring the core of Marxism-Leninism that predates socialist states. I've been arguing in good faith the entire time, asking you over and over for actual arguments and reading, and you respond with insult. Are you aware of how this presents to onlookers? Do you think you're winning over others? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments load more comments (3 replies) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (3 replies) load more comments (1 reply) [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 5 months ago (39 children) What "obvious reasons?" The fact that socialist theory and history from socialists actually building socialism happens to back up their reasoning in most cases? There's also critique and discussion of problems in existing socialism coming from AES countries as well. This is an utterly self-defeating argument that only validates those most removed from the actual practice of building socialism. Again, to stress, your point is that we should inherently distrust those building socialism in real life, and only accept theory from those that are utterely disengaged from practice. Further, there's no critical examination of the merits of socialist theory and history produced by socialist countries on your part, the very fact that they are produced by the people actively building socialism is enough to discredit them in your views. Can you not see the logical trap? If you succeeded in building socialism and spoke about your experiences, successes, and failures, you would have to discredit yourself as fanfiction! Should the merit of theory not be tested through practice? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 39 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 9 points 5 months ago (19 children) Usurped control of the state from...who? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 19 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 5 months ago (17 children) The provisional government was a liberal, pro-capitalist government. The counter-revolutionary thing to do would be to protect the provisional government. Further, it was not a black and white case of the Bolsheviks losing elections, the various parties of the time formed coalitions, which legitimized the Bolshevik coalition, as well as the peasant elections that you're ignoring. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 17 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago (15 children) Nope, no historical inaccuracies. You're referring to the Right-SRs, who had recently split from the Left-SRs. The rural socialists banded together with the Bolsheviks in a coalition. You're also ignoring that the workers and peasants already saw the provisional government as illegitimate, backing the Soviets. The anarchists may have had what they believed were good ideas, but the proletariat and peasantry largely disagreed and agreed with the socialists, who coalesced around the Bolsheviks. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 15 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 9 points 5 months ago (10 children) Why would the Soviets overthrowing the capitalist government "invalidate the very idea they stood for?" The Soviets stood for worker and peasant power. They succeeded in establishing that very concept and turning it into concrete political reality. As for the idea of the Bolsheviks "purging people," you are referring to the ensuing Civil War, where the workers and peasants joined the Bolsheviks and the Red Army. Even anarchists largely joined the Red Army to fight off the Whites. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 10 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago (7 children) Nothing I have said is historically inaccurate. The Bolsheviks opposed cadets, mensheviks, and other groups that wished to retain the Tsar's colonies, wanted to prolong the war, and opposed Soviet power. The Soviets were a connected system, itself a state. Overthrowing the provisional government and solidifying the Soviet state as the only state does not oppose their purpose in the slightest, and it was a decision democratically approved. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 7 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago (5 children) I have read historically accurate accounts, though you define historical accuracy by it not being written by anyone succeeding. I've also asked for sources, and you haven't brought any beyond linking the anarchist library. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] calmblue75@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago (1 child) You still haven't provided any sources permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Oppopity@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago Yes but they started their sentences with "more historical inaccuracies" and "more fan-fiction" for the fifth time now and surely that counts for something. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (3 replies) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (2 replies) load more comments (4 replies) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 9 points 5 months ago (17 children) I think the texts written by socialists building socialism are valuable insights into the actual struggles run into when building socialism. I also believe labeling them "counter-revolutionaries" without demonstrating how and why this is the case is an entirely ineffective means of argument, I've already made it clear that I consider socialist states to be real, and I back up those claims with historical and theoretical evidence when needed. Simply saying "no" is not an argument, and telling me I'm removed from praxis and reality when I know this isn't the case is naked Ad Hominem. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 17 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (16 children) I agree that simple claims do not make a state socialist. I never made claims to the contrary. What makes a state socialist is proletarian control of the state, and public ownership as the principal aspect of the economy. All practical reality, contrary to your position, backs up this position. State capitalism refers to a bourgeois economy with heavy state planning, yet capitalist control of the state and the social surplus. Think the Republic of Korea, Singapore, etc. The NEP, China's and Vietnam's socialist market economies, all of these are largely differentiated from state capitalism through the class character of the state, and having public ownership as the principal aspect of the economy. Calling these "state capitalist" despite clear differences with the ROK, Singapore, etc. in form, direction, and results erases class from the state. Socialist planned economies take this further, having been farther along in eliminating private property. The DPRK, Cuba, and mid-late USSR are all examples of this form of socialist economy. This is where it makes even less sense to describe these as "state capitalism," you're just using capitalism to refer to industrial production at this point. Such a clear mislabeling makes utter mud of how we view socialism. This is not mere phraseology, but a practical investigation of what makes a class, which is defined by relation to ownership of the means of production. Administrators in socialism are not a "tiny ruling elite," they are a subsection of the broader proletariat, and share equal ownership of the means of production in practical terms, not merely formal phrasemongering. If the CPSU were a "tiny ruling elite," they certainly sucked at being so! Certainly you can see the clear difference between salaried workers and capital owners entitling themselves to the near entirety of the social surplus? Regarding the Russian revolution, I have read a great deal about it, as well as the period of early socialist construction, industrialization, collectivization, preparation for World War II, and the post-War economy, including reforms that weakened the socialist system and contributed partially towards its disollution. Lenin and the Bolsheviks were by no means counter-revolutionaries, even if you considered the NEP to be state capitalism, they abolished this and collectivized the economy. There's absolutely nothing backing what you've claimed. The Germans allowed Lenin to go to overthrow the Russian government precisely because they sought chaos, and even then it was dangerous for Lenin to do so as many people hated the idea. He had to travel covertly. Regarding the Ad Hominem, no, I did no such thing. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 16 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 5 months ago (11 children) In socialist states, ownership and control is held in the hands of the proletariat. Delegation and administration is built up precisely due to the necessity of administrative labor, this does not make salaried administrators a separate owner class. Teachers and principals are both proletarian, even if the form of labor is different, even if the pay is different, because they share the same class interests and relations to the means of production and distribution. What makes a society socialist is proletarian control of the state, and public ownership as the principal aspect of the economy. Plain and simple. Calling entirely different economic systems capitalist as a means to discredit socialism is a subjectivist argument, it doesn't get us any closer to the truth. As for me "disagreeing with historical fact," I'd love an explanation of how I do that. You do seem to admit to trying to convince me, so perhaps you could play ball and actually give me some examples, arguments, and literature? I'm utterly uninterested in subjectivist declarations devoid of any actual substance, without actual examples and arguments I couldn't even be convinced by you if I wanted to be. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 11 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 11 points 5 months ago (4 children) Monopolizing state power in the hands of the working classes is putting the working classes in power. The state is not outside of class struggle, but within it, and arises from it. None of my logic has been circular. As for your strategy, you reveal your utter disdain for actual organizing work when you claim you would be "doing my research for me." I am openly inviting you to share what you think are good ideas, and instead you insult me. This attitude is aristocratic, the workers are not good enough for your knowledge, they just have to trust whatever it is you say, and if they don't, they are not worthy. I never claimed to be your boss, nor am I a part of a vanguard party, as no party can declare itself as such. If you do org work in real life, I suggest you try to actually engage with those who disagree with you, or else you'll have an extremely difficult time gaining new members. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 5 months ago (3 children) None of this was ad-hominem. I did not say your claims were wrong because you have an aristocratic viewpoint, I explained your aristocratic attitude and how that impacts potential org-work. Revolution is definitely praxis, and I'm not sure what you mean by "armchair communist," I organize in real life. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments load more comments (3 replies) load more comments (6 replies) load more comments (4 replies) load more comments (1 reply)
[–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 12 points 5 months ago (11 children) Marxist theory is unconnected to reality, yet Marxists have historically been so good at understanding and changing reality that you complain about that too🤔 permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 11 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 12 points 5 months ago (9 children) Lenin wrote his most critical theory before the Bolsheviks succeeded in establishing socialism, for example, Imperialism, the Current Highest Stage of Capitalism was published in 1916, and built on his previous studies of imperialism via the Marxist method. Marxism-Leninism is the living Marxism carried forward to the era of imperialism, and is not a deviation from Marxism but a continuation of it. Marx never became a reactionary, it was the anarchist faction that failed to counter Marx and was thus expelled from the First International. Marx has no weaknesses with respect to materialism as far as I know. It would help your points tremendously if you gave any examples of the flaws Marx supposedly has, or the ways Marxism-Leninism is a deviation, rather than a continuation. Instead, this seems to follow your strategy of subjectivism, just labeling things you don't like as counter-revolutionary without critically analyzing them. If you could verbalize how and why you disagree with Marxism-Leninism and Marxism, it would help your arguments enormously, as it stands there's 0 chance you're convincing anyone here, who already largely agrees with Marxism-Leninism, or anyone looking on who can see the MLs bring receipts while you refuse to provide any. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 9 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 9 points 5 months ago* (5 children) You did not provide arguments, you provided categorical declarations without backing them up or contextualizing them. Do you not see how enormously unproductive this is for bringing someone over to your side? Asserting that I simply "don't understand" your supposed arguments is also not going to hold any water, everyone can see plain as day that I have carefully responded exactly to what you've been declaring. As for materialism being disproven, again, you don't explain how or why, you just say that it has been, and reference "a hundred plus years of literature" without giving any examples, or explaining how it's supposedly wrong. Who are you trying to convince? Even for the sake of hypothetical, even if it was wrong, if your goal was to convince anyone of your argument, you've given them absolutely nothing to go off of to see if you're correct. All you've done is legitimize Marx, Lenin, and myself with this level of logic. As for Lenin's theory, you still haven't actually attacked it. You made the claim that it was all post-hoc, and when this was proven false, you deflected. This is just running away from the argument. I ask you again: for what purpose are you commenting? Is this how you try to gain comrades in real life? Do you even try to do so? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 9 points 5 months ago (3 children) Stalin, by his own admission, added very, very little to Marxism-Leninism. Marxism-Leninism is, at its core, laid out by Marx and Lenin. If you mean any retrospective analysis is "post-hoc justification," then this is absurd as retrospection must be post-hoc. If you mean most arguments in general are post-hoc, then you're ignoring the core of Marxism-Leninism that predates socialist states. I've been arguing in good faith the entire time, asking you over and over for actual arguments and reading, and you respond with insult. Are you aware of how this presents to onlookers? Do you think you're winning over others? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments load more comments (3 replies) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (3 replies) load more comments (1 reply)
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 12 points 5 months ago (9 children) Lenin wrote his most critical theory before the Bolsheviks succeeded in establishing socialism, for example, Imperialism, the Current Highest Stage of Capitalism was published in 1916, and built on his previous studies of imperialism via the Marxist method. Marxism-Leninism is the living Marxism carried forward to the era of imperialism, and is not a deviation from Marxism but a continuation of it. Marx never became a reactionary, it was the anarchist faction that failed to counter Marx and was thus expelled from the First International. Marx has no weaknesses with respect to materialism as far as I know. It would help your points tremendously if you gave any examples of the flaws Marx supposedly has, or the ways Marxism-Leninism is a deviation, rather than a continuation. Instead, this seems to follow your strategy of subjectivism, just labeling things you don't like as counter-revolutionary without critically analyzing them. If you could verbalize how and why you disagree with Marxism-Leninism and Marxism, it would help your arguments enormously, as it stands there's 0 chance you're convincing anyone here, who already largely agrees with Marxism-Leninism, or anyone looking on who can see the MLs bring receipts while you refuse to provide any. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 9 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 9 points 5 months ago* (5 children) You did not provide arguments, you provided categorical declarations without backing them up or contextualizing them. Do you not see how enormously unproductive this is for bringing someone over to your side? Asserting that I simply "don't understand" your supposed arguments is also not going to hold any water, everyone can see plain as day that I have carefully responded exactly to what you've been declaring. As for materialism being disproven, again, you don't explain how or why, you just say that it has been, and reference "a hundred plus years of literature" without giving any examples, or explaining how it's supposedly wrong. Who are you trying to convince? Even for the sake of hypothetical, even if it was wrong, if your goal was to convince anyone of your argument, you've given them absolutely nothing to go off of to see if you're correct. All you've done is legitimize Marx, Lenin, and myself with this level of logic. As for Lenin's theory, you still haven't actually attacked it. You made the claim that it was all post-hoc, and when this was proven false, you deflected. This is just running away from the argument. I ask you again: for what purpose are you commenting? Is this how you try to gain comrades in real life? Do you even try to do so? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 9 points 5 months ago (3 children) Stalin, by his own admission, added very, very little to Marxism-Leninism. Marxism-Leninism is, at its core, laid out by Marx and Lenin. If you mean any retrospective analysis is "post-hoc justification," then this is absurd as retrospection must be post-hoc. If you mean most arguments in general are post-hoc, then you're ignoring the core of Marxism-Leninism that predates socialist states. I've been arguing in good faith the entire time, asking you over and over for actual arguments and reading, and you respond with insult. Are you aware of how this presents to onlookers? Do you think you're winning over others? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments load more comments (3 replies) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (3 replies)
[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 12 points 5 months ago (9 children) Lenin wrote his most critical theory before the Bolsheviks succeeded in establishing socialism, for example, Imperialism, the Current Highest Stage of Capitalism was published in 1916, and built on his previous studies of imperialism via the Marxist method. Marxism-Leninism is the living Marxism carried forward to the era of imperialism, and is not a deviation from Marxism but a continuation of it. Marx never became a reactionary, it was the anarchist faction that failed to counter Marx and was thus expelled from the First International. Marx has no weaknesses with respect to materialism as far as I know. It would help your points tremendously if you gave any examples of the flaws Marx supposedly has, or the ways Marxism-Leninism is a deviation, rather than a continuation. Instead, this seems to follow your strategy of subjectivism, just labeling things you don't like as counter-revolutionary without critically analyzing them. If you could verbalize how and why you disagree with Marxism-Leninism and Marxism, it would help your arguments enormously, as it stands there's 0 chance you're convincing anyone here, who already largely agrees with Marxism-Leninism, or anyone looking on who can see the MLs bring receipts while you refuse to provide any. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 9 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 9 points 5 months ago* (5 children) You did not provide arguments, you provided categorical declarations without backing them up or contextualizing them. Do you not see how enormously unproductive this is for bringing someone over to your side? Asserting that I simply "don't understand" your supposed arguments is also not going to hold any water, everyone can see plain as day that I have carefully responded exactly to what you've been declaring. As for materialism being disproven, again, you don't explain how or why, you just say that it has been, and reference "a hundred plus years of literature" without giving any examples, or explaining how it's supposedly wrong. Who are you trying to convince? Even for the sake of hypothetical, even if it was wrong, if your goal was to convince anyone of your argument, you've given them absolutely nothing to go off of to see if you're correct. All you've done is legitimize Marx, Lenin, and myself with this level of logic. As for Lenin's theory, you still haven't actually attacked it. You made the claim that it was all post-hoc, and when this was proven false, you deflected. This is just running away from the argument. I ask you again: for what purpose are you commenting? Is this how you try to gain comrades in real life? Do you even try to do so? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 9 points 5 months ago (3 children) Stalin, by his own admission, added very, very little to Marxism-Leninism. Marxism-Leninism is, at its core, laid out by Marx and Lenin. If you mean any retrospective analysis is "post-hoc justification," then this is absurd as retrospection must be post-hoc. If you mean most arguments in general are post-hoc, then you're ignoring the core of Marxism-Leninism that predates socialist states. I've been arguing in good faith the entire time, asking you over and over for actual arguments and reading, and you respond with insult. Are you aware of how this presents to onlookers? Do you think you're winning over others? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments load more comments (3 replies) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (3 replies)
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 9 points 5 months ago* (5 children) You did not provide arguments, you provided categorical declarations without backing them up or contextualizing them. Do you not see how enormously unproductive this is for bringing someone over to your side? Asserting that I simply "don't understand" your supposed arguments is also not going to hold any water, everyone can see plain as day that I have carefully responded exactly to what you've been declaring. As for materialism being disproven, again, you don't explain how or why, you just say that it has been, and reference "a hundred plus years of literature" without giving any examples, or explaining how it's supposedly wrong. Who are you trying to convince? Even for the sake of hypothetical, even if it was wrong, if your goal was to convince anyone of your argument, you've given them absolutely nothing to go off of to see if you're correct. All you've done is legitimize Marx, Lenin, and myself with this level of logic. As for Lenin's theory, you still haven't actually attacked it. You made the claim that it was all post-hoc, and when this was proven false, you deflected. This is just running away from the argument. I ask you again: for what purpose are you commenting? Is this how you try to gain comrades in real life? Do you even try to do so? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 9 points 5 months ago (3 children) Stalin, by his own admission, added very, very little to Marxism-Leninism. Marxism-Leninism is, at its core, laid out by Marx and Lenin. If you mean any retrospective analysis is "post-hoc justification," then this is absurd as retrospection must be post-hoc. If you mean most arguments in general are post-hoc, then you're ignoring the core of Marxism-Leninism that predates socialist states. I've been arguing in good faith the entire time, asking you over and over for actual arguments and reading, and you respond with insult. Are you aware of how this presents to onlookers? Do you think you're winning over others? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments load more comments (3 replies) load more comments (1 reply)
[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 9 points 5 months ago* (5 children) You did not provide arguments, you provided categorical declarations without backing them up or contextualizing them. Do you not see how enormously unproductive this is for bringing someone over to your side? Asserting that I simply "don't understand" your supposed arguments is also not going to hold any water, everyone can see plain as day that I have carefully responded exactly to what you've been declaring. As for materialism being disproven, again, you don't explain how or why, you just say that it has been, and reference "a hundred plus years of literature" without giving any examples, or explaining how it's supposedly wrong. Who are you trying to convince? Even for the sake of hypothetical, even if it was wrong, if your goal was to convince anyone of your argument, you've given them absolutely nothing to go off of to see if you're correct. All you've done is legitimize Marx, Lenin, and myself with this level of logic. As for Lenin's theory, you still haven't actually attacked it. You made the claim that it was all post-hoc, and when this was proven false, you deflected. This is just running away from the argument. I ask you again: for what purpose are you commenting? Is this how you try to gain comrades in real life? Do you even try to do so? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 9 points 5 months ago (3 children) Stalin, by his own admission, added very, very little to Marxism-Leninism. Marxism-Leninism is, at its core, laid out by Marx and Lenin. If you mean any retrospective analysis is "post-hoc justification," then this is absurd as retrospection must be post-hoc. If you mean most arguments in general are post-hoc, then you're ignoring the core of Marxism-Leninism that predates socialist states. I've been arguing in good faith the entire time, asking you over and over for actual arguments and reading, and you respond with insult. Are you aware of how this presents to onlookers? Do you think you're winning over others? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments load more comments (3 replies) load more comments (1 reply)
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 9 points 5 months ago (3 children) Stalin, by his own admission, added very, very little to Marxism-Leninism. Marxism-Leninism is, at its core, laid out by Marx and Lenin. If you mean any retrospective analysis is "post-hoc justification," then this is absurd as retrospection must be post-hoc. If you mean most arguments in general are post-hoc, then you're ignoring the core of Marxism-Leninism that predates socialist states. I've been arguing in good faith the entire time, asking you over and over for actual arguments and reading, and you respond with insult. Are you aware of how this presents to onlookers? Do you think you're winning over others? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments load more comments (3 replies)
[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 9 points 5 months ago (3 children) Stalin, by his own admission, added very, very little to Marxism-Leninism. Marxism-Leninism is, at its core, laid out by Marx and Lenin. If you mean any retrospective analysis is "post-hoc justification," then this is absurd as retrospection must be post-hoc. If you mean most arguments in general are post-hoc, then you're ignoring the core of Marxism-Leninism that predates socialist states. I've been arguing in good faith the entire time, asking you over and over for actual arguments and reading, and you respond with insult. Are you aware of how this presents to onlookers? Do you think you're winning over others? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments load more comments (3 replies)
[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 5 months ago (39 children) What "obvious reasons?" The fact that socialist theory and history from socialists actually building socialism happens to back up their reasoning in most cases? There's also critique and discussion of problems in existing socialism coming from AES countries as well. This is an utterly self-defeating argument that only validates those most removed from the actual practice of building socialism. Again, to stress, your point is that we should inherently distrust those building socialism in real life, and only accept theory from those that are utterely disengaged from practice. Further, there's no critical examination of the merits of socialist theory and history produced by socialist countries on your part, the very fact that they are produced by the people actively building socialism is enough to discredit them in your views. Can you not see the logical trap? If you succeeded in building socialism and spoke about your experiences, successes, and failures, you would have to discredit yourself as fanfiction! Should the merit of theory not be tested through practice? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 39 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 9 points 5 months ago (19 children) Usurped control of the state from...who? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 19 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 5 months ago (17 children) The provisional government was a liberal, pro-capitalist government. The counter-revolutionary thing to do would be to protect the provisional government. Further, it was not a black and white case of the Bolsheviks losing elections, the various parties of the time formed coalitions, which legitimized the Bolshevik coalition, as well as the peasant elections that you're ignoring. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 17 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago (15 children) Nope, no historical inaccuracies. You're referring to the Right-SRs, who had recently split from the Left-SRs. The rural socialists banded together with the Bolsheviks in a coalition. You're also ignoring that the workers and peasants already saw the provisional government as illegitimate, backing the Soviets. The anarchists may have had what they believed were good ideas, but the proletariat and peasantry largely disagreed and agreed with the socialists, who coalesced around the Bolsheviks. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 15 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 9 points 5 months ago (10 children) Why would the Soviets overthrowing the capitalist government "invalidate the very idea they stood for?" The Soviets stood for worker and peasant power. They succeeded in establishing that very concept and turning it into concrete political reality. As for the idea of the Bolsheviks "purging people," you are referring to the ensuing Civil War, where the workers and peasants joined the Bolsheviks and the Red Army. Even anarchists largely joined the Red Army to fight off the Whites. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 10 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago (7 children) Nothing I have said is historically inaccurate. The Bolsheviks opposed cadets, mensheviks, and other groups that wished to retain the Tsar's colonies, wanted to prolong the war, and opposed Soviet power. The Soviets were a connected system, itself a state. Overthrowing the provisional government and solidifying the Soviet state as the only state does not oppose their purpose in the slightest, and it was a decision democratically approved. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 7 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago (5 children) I have read historically accurate accounts, though you define historical accuracy by it not being written by anyone succeeding. I've also asked for sources, and you haven't brought any beyond linking the anarchist library. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] calmblue75@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago (1 child) You still haven't provided any sources permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Oppopity@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago Yes but they started their sentences with "more historical inaccuracies" and "more fan-fiction" for the fifth time now and surely that counts for something. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (3 replies) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (2 replies) load more comments (4 replies) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 9 points 5 months ago (17 children) I think the texts written by socialists building socialism are valuable insights into the actual struggles run into when building socialism. I also believe labeling them "counter-revolutionaries" without demonstrating how and why this is the case is an entirely ineffective means of argument, I've already made it clear that I consider socialist states to be real, and I back up those claims with historical and theoretical evidence when needed. Simply saying "no" is not an argument, and telling me I'm removed from praxis and reality when I know this isn't the case is naked Ad Hominem. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 17 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (16 children) I agree that simple claims do not make a state socialist. I never made claims to the contrary. What makes a state socialist is proletarian control of the state, and public ownership as the principal aspect of the economy. All practical reality, contrary to your position, backs up this position. State capitalism refers to a bourgeois economy with heavy state planning, yet capitalist control of the state and the social surplus. Think the Republic of Korea, Singapore, etc. The NEP, China's and Vietnam's socialist market economies, all of these are largely differentiated from state capitalism through the class character of the state, and having public ownership as the principal aspect of the economy. Calling these "state capitalist" despite clear differences with the ROK, Singapore, etc. in form, direction, and results erases class from the state. Socialist planned economies take this further, having been farther along in eliminating private property. The DPRK, Cuba, and mid-late USSR are all examples of this form of socialist economy. This is where it makes even less sense to describe these as "state capitalism," you're just using capitalism to refer to industrial production at this point. Such a clear mislabeling makes utter mud of how we view socialism. This is not mere phraseology, but a practical investigation of what makes a class, which is defined by relation to ownership of the means of production. Administrators in socialism are not a "tiny ruling elite," they are a subsection of the broader proletariat, and share equal ownership of the means of production in practical terms, not merely formal phrasemongering. If the CPSU were a "tiny ruling elite," they certainly sucked at being so! Certainly you can see the clear difference between salaried workers and capital owners entitling themselves to the near entirety of the social surplus? Regarding the Russian revolution, I have read a great deal about it, as well as the period of early socialist construction, industrialization, collectivization, preparation for World War II, and the post-War economy, including reforms that weakened the socialist system and contributed partially towards its disollution. Lenin and the Bolsheviks were by no means counter-revolutionaries, even if you considered the NEP to be state capitalism, they abolished this and collectivized the economy. There's absolutely nothing backing what you've claimed. The Germans allowed Lenin to go to overthrow the Russian government precisely because they sought chaos, and even then it was dangerous for Lenin to do so as many people hated the idea. He had to travel covertly. Regarding the Ad Hominem, no, I did no such thing. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 16 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 5 months ago (11 children) In socialist states, ownership and control is held in the hands of the proletariat. Delegation and administration is built up precisely due to the necessity of administrative labor, this does not make salaried administrators a separate owner class. Teachers and principals are both proletarian, even if the form of labor is different, even if the pay is different, because they share the same class interests and relations to the means of production and distribution. What makes a society socialist is proletarian control of the state, and public ownership as the principal aspect of the economy. Plain and simple. Calling entirely different economic systems capitalist as a means to discredit socialism is a subjectivist argument, it doesn't get us any closer to the truth. As for me "disagreeing with historical fact," I'd love an explanation of how I do that. You do seem to admit to trying to convince me, so perhaps you could play ball and actually give me some examples, arguments, and literature? I'm utterly uninterested in subjectivist declarations devoid of any actual substance, without actual examples and arguments I couldn't even be convinced by you if I wanted to be. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 11 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 11 points 5 months ago (4 children) Monopolizing state power in the hands of the working classes is putting the working classes in power. The state is not outside of class struggle, but within it, and arises from it. None of my logic has been circular. As for your strategy, you reveal your utter disdain for actual organizing work when you claim you would be "doing my research for me." I am openly inviting you to share what you think are good ideas, and instead you insult me. This attitude is aristocratic, the workers are not good enough for your knowledge, they just have to trust whatever it is you say, and if they don't, they are not worthy. I never claimed to be your boss, nor am I a part of a vanguard party, as no party can declare itself as such. If you do org work in real life, I suggest you try to actually engage with those who disagree with you, or else you'll have an extremely difficult time gaining new members. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 5 months ago (3 children) None of this was ad-hominem. I did not say your claims were wrong because you have an aristocratic viewpoint, I explained your aristocratic attitude and how that impacts potential org-work. Revolution is definitely praxis, and I'm not sure what you mean by "armchair communist," I organize in real life. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments load more comments (3 replies) load more comments (6 replies) load more comments (4 replies) load more comments (1 reply)
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 9 points 5 months ago (19 children) Usurped control of the state from...who? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 19 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 5 months ago (17 children) The provisional government was a liberal, pro-capitalist government. The counter-revolutionary thing to do would be to protect the provisional government. Further, it was not a black and white case of the Bolsheviks losing elections, the various parties of the time formed coalitions, which legitimized the Bolshevik coalition, as well as the peasant elections that you're ignoring. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 17 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago (15 children) Nope, no historical inaccuracies. You're referring to the Right-SRs, who had recently split from the Left-SRs. The rural socialists banded together with the Bolsheviks in a coalition. You're also ignoring that the workers and peasants already saw the provisional government as illegitimate, backing the Soviets. The anarchists may have had what they believed were good ideas, but the proletariat and peasantry largely disagreed and agreed with the socialists, who coalesced around the Bolsheviks. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 15 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 9 points 5 months ago (10 children) Why would the Soviets overthrowing the capitalist government "invalidate the very idea they stood for?" The Soviets stood for worker and peasant power. They succeeded in establishing that very concept and turning it into concrete political reality. As for the idea of the Bolsheviks "purging people," you are referring to the ensuing Civil War, where the workers and peasants joined the Bolsheviks and the Red Army. Even anarchists largely joined the Red Army to fight off the Whites. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 10 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago (7 children) Nothing I have said is historically inaccurate. The Bolsheviks opposed cadets, mensheviks, and other groups that wished to retain the Tsar's colonies, wanted to prolong the war, and opposed Soviet power. The Soviets were a connected system, itself a state. Overthrowing the provisional government and solidifying the Soviet state as the only state does not oppose their purpose in the slightest, and it was a decision democratically approved. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 7 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago (5 children) I have read historically accurate accounts, though you define historical accuracy by it not being written by anyone succeeding. I've also asked for sources, and you haven't brought any beyond linking the anarchist library. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] calmblue75@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago (1 child) You still haven't provided any sources permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Oppopity@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago Yes but they started their sentences with "more historical inaccuracies" and "more fan-fiction" for the fifth time now and surely that counts for something. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (3 replies) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (2 replies) load more comments (4 replies) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 9 points 5 months ago (17 children) I think the texts written by socialists building socialism are valuable insights into the actual struggles run into when building socialism. I also believe labeling them "counter-revolutionaries" without demonstrating how and why this is the case is an entirely ineffective means of argument, I've already made it clear that I consider socialist states to be real, and I back up those claims with historical and theoretical evidence when needed. Simply saying "no" is not an argument, and telling me I'm removed from praxis and reality when I know this isn't the case is naked Ad Hominem. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 17 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (16 children) I agree that simple claims do not make a state socialist. I never made claims to the contrary. What makes a state socialist is proletarian control of the state, and public ownership as the principal aspect of the economy. All practical reality, contrary to your position, backs up this position. State capitalism refers to a bourgeois economy with heavy state planning, yet capitalist control of the state and the social surplus. Think the Republic of Korea, Singapore, etc. The NEP, China's and Vietnam's socialist market economies, all of these are largely differentiated from state capitalism through the class character of the state, and having public ownership as the principal aspect of the economy. Calling these "state capitalist" despite clear differences with the ROK, Singapore, etc. in form, direction, and results erases class from the state. Socialist planned economies take this further, having been farther along in eliminating private property. The DPRK, Cuba, and mid-late USSR are all examples of this form of socialist economy. This is where it makes even less sense to describe these as "state capitalism," you're just using capitalism to refer to industrial production at this point. Such a clear mislabeling makes utter mud of how we view socialism. This is not mere phraseology, but a practical investigation of what makes a class, which is defined by relation to ownership of the means of production. Administrators in socialism are not a "tiny ruling elite," they are a subsection of the broader proletariat, and share equal ownership of the means of production in practical terms, not merely formal phrasemongering. If the CPSU were a "tiny ruling elite," they certainly sucked at being so! Certainly you can see the clear difference between salaried workers and capital owners entitling themselves to the near entirety of the social surplus? Regarding the Russian revolution, I have read a great deal about it, as well as the period of early socialist construction, industrialization, collectivization, preparation for World War II, and the post-War economy, including reforms that weakened the socialist system and contributed partially towards its disollution. Lenin and the Bolsheviks were by no means counter-revolutionaries, even if you considered the NEP to be state capitalism, they abolished this and collectivized the economy. There's absolutely nothing backing what you've claimed. The Germans allowed Lenin to go to overthrow the Russian government precisely because they sought chaos, and even then it was dangerous for Lenin to do so as many people hated the idea. He had to travel covertly. Regarding the Ad Hominem, no, I did no such thing. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 16 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 5 months ago (11 children) In socialist states, ownership and control is held in the hands of the proletariat. Delegation and administration is built up precisely due to the necessity of administrative labor, this does not make salaried administrators a separate owner class. Teachers and principals are both proletarian, even if the form of labor is different, even if the pay is different, because they share the same class interests and relations to the means of production and distribution. What makes a society socialist is proletarian control of the state, and public ownership as the principal aspect of the economy. Plain and simple. Calling entirely different economic systems capitalist as a means to discredit socialism is a subjectivist argument, it doesn't get us any closer to the truth. As for me "disagreeing with historical fact," I'd love an explanation of how I do that. You do seem to admit to trying to convince me, so perhaps you could play ball and actually give me some examples, arguments, and literature? I'm utterly uninterested in subjectivist declarations devoid of any actual substance, without actual examples and arguments I couldn't even be convinced by you if I wanted to be. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 11 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 11 points 5 months ago (4 children) Monopolizing state power in the hands of the working classes is putting the working classes in power. The state is not outside of class struggle, but within it, and arises from it. None of my logic has been circular. As for your strategy, you reveal your utter disdain for actual organizing work when you claim you would be "doing my research for me." I am openly inviting you to share what you think are good ideas, and instead you insult me. This attitude is aristocratic, the workers are not good enough for your knowledge, they just have to trust whatever it is you say, and if they don't, they are not worthy. I never claimed to be your boss, nor am I a part of a vanguard party, as no party can declare itself as such. If you do org work in real life, I suggest you try to actually engage with those who disagree with you, or else you'll have an extremely difficult time gaining new members. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 5 months ago (3 children) None of this was ad-hominem. I did not say your claims were wrong because you have an aristocratic viewpoint, I explained your aristocratic attitude and how that impacts potential org-work. Revolution is definitely praxis, and I'm not sure what you mean by "armchair communist," I organize in real life. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments load more comments (3 replies) load more comments (6 replies) load more comments (4 replies)
[–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 9 points 5 months ago (19 children) Usurped control of the state from...who? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 19 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 5 months ago (17 children) The provisional government was a liberal, pro-capitalist government. The counter-revolutionary thing to do would be to protect the provisional government. Further, it was not a black and white case of the Bolsheviks losing elections, the various parties of the time formed coalitions, which legitimized the Bolshevik coalition, as well as the peasant elections that you're ignoring. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 17 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago (15 children) Nope, no historical inaccuracies. You're referring to the Right-SRs, who had recently split from the Left-SRs. The rural socialists banded together with the Bolsheviks in a coalition. You're also ignoring that the workers and peasants already saw the provisional government as illegitimate, backing the Soviets. The anarchists may have had what they believed were good ideas, but the proletariat and peasantry largely disagreed and agreed with the socialists, who coalesced around the Bolsheviks. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 15 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 9 points 5 months ago (10 children) Why would the Soviets overthrowing the capitalist government "invalidate the very idea they stood for?" The Soviets stood for worker and peasant power. They succeeded in establishing that very concept and turning it into concrete political reality. As for the idea of the Bolsheviks "purging people," you are referring to the ensuing Civil War, where the workers and peasants joined the Bolsheviks and the Red Army. Even anarchists largely joined the Red Army to fight off the Whites. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 10 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago (7 children) Nothing I have said is historically inaccurate. The Bolsheviks opposed cadets, mensheviks, and other groups that wished to retain the Tsar's colonies, wanted to prolong the war, and opposed Soviet power. The Soviets were a connected system, itself a state. Overthrowing the provisional government and solidifying the Soviet state as the only state does not oppose their purpose in the slightest, and it was a decision democratically approved. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 7 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago (5 children) I have read historically accurate accounts, though you define historical accuracy by it not being written by anyone succeeding. I've also asked for sources, and you haven't brought any beyond linking the anarchist library. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] calmblue75@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago (1 child) You still haven't provided any sources permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Oppopity@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago Yes but they started their sentences with "more historical inaccuracies" and "more fan-fiction" for the fifth time now and surely that counts for something. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (3 replies) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (2 replies) load more comments (4 replies) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply)
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 5 months ago (17 children) The provisional government was a liberal, pro-capitalist government. The counter-revolutionary thing to do would be to protect the provisional government. Further, it was not a black and white case of the Bolsheviks losing elections, the various parties of the time formed coalitions, which legitimized the Bolshevik coalition, as well as the peasant elections that you're ignoring. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 17 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago (15 children) Nope, no historical inaccuracies. You're referring to the Right-SRs, who had recently split from the Left-SRs. The rural socialists banded together with the Bolsheviks in a coalition. You're also ignoring that the workers and peasants already saw the provisional government as illegitimate, backing the Soviets. The anarchists may have had what they believed were good ideas, but the proletariat and peasantry largely disagreed and agreed with the socialists, who coalesced around the Bolsheviks. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 15 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 9 points 5 months ago (10 children) Why would the Soviets overthrowing the capitalist government "invalidate the very idea they stood for?" The Soviets stood for worker and peasant power. They succeeded in establishing that very concept and turning it into concrete political reality. As for the idea of the Bolsheviks "purging people," you are referring to the ensuing Civil War, where the workers and peasants joined the Bolsheviks and the Red Army. Even anarchists largely joined the Red Army to fight off the Whites. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 10 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago (7 children) Nothing I have said is historically inaccurate. The Bolsheviks opposed cadets, mensheviks, and other groups that wished to retain the Tsar's colonies, wanted to prolong the war, and opposed Soviet power. The Soviets were a connected system, itself a state. Overthrowing the provisional government and solidifying the Soviet state as the only state does not oppose their purpose in the slightest, and it was a decision democratically approved. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 7 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago (5 children) I have read historically accurate accounts, though you define historical accuracy by it not being written by anyone succeeding. I've also asked for sources, and you haven't brought any beyond linking the anarchist library. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] calmblue75@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago (1 child) You still haven't provided any sources permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Oppopity@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago Yes but they started their sentences with "more historical inaccuracies" and "more fan-fiction" for the fifth time now and surely that counts for something. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (3 replies) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (2 replies) load more comments (4 replies) load more comments (1 reply)
[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 5 months ago (17 children) The provisional government was a liberal, pro-capitalist government. The counter-revolutionary thing to do would be to protect the provisional government. Further, it was not a black and white case of the Bolsheviks losing elections, the various parties of the time formed coalitions, which legitimized the Bolshevik coalition, as well as the peasant elections that you're ignoring. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 17 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago (15 children) Nope, no historical inaccuracies. You're referring to the Right-SRs, who had recently split from the Left-SRs. The rural socialists banded together with the Bolsheviks in a coalition. You're also ignoring that the workers and peasants already saw the provisional government as illegitimate, backing the Soviets. The anarchists may have had what they believed were good ideas, but the proletariat and peasantry largely disagreed and agreed with the socialists, who coalesced around the Bolsheviks. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 15 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 9 points 5 months ago (10 children) Why would the Soviets overthrowing the capitalist government "invalidate the very idea they stood for?" The Soviets stood for worker and peasant power. They succeeded in establishing that very concept and turning it into concrete political reality. As for the idea of the Bolsheviks "purging people," you are referring to the ensuing Civil War, where the workers and peasants joined the Bolsheviks and the Red Army. Even anarchists largely joined the Red Army to fight off the Whites. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 10 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago (7 children) Nothing I have said is historically inaccurate. The Bolsheviks opposed cadets, mensheviks, and other groups that wished to retain the Tsar's colonies, wanted to prolong the war, and opposed Soviet power. The Soviets were a connected system, itself a state. Overthrowing the provisional government and solidifying the Soviet state as the only state does not oppose their purpose in the slightest, and it was a decision democratically approved. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 7 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago (5 children) I have read historically accurate accounts, though you define historical accuracy by it not being written by anyone succeeding. I've also asked for sources, and you haven't brought any beyond linking the anarchist library. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] calmblue75@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago (1 child) You still haven't provided any sources permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Oppopity@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago Yes but they started their sentences with "more historical inaccuracies" and "more fan-fiction" for the fifth time now and surely that counts for something. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (3 replies) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (2 replies) load more comments (4 replies) load more comments (1 reply)
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago (15 children) Nope, no historical inaccuracies. You're referring to the Right-SRs, who had recently split from the Left-SRs. The rural socialists banded together with the Bolsheviks in a coalition. You're also ignoring that the workers and peasants already saw the provisional government as illegitimate, backing the Soviets. The anarchists may have had what they believed were good ideas, but the proletariat and peasantry largely disagreed and agreed with the socialists, who coalesced around the Bolsheviks. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 15 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 9 points 5 months ago (10 children) Why would the Soviets overthrowing the capitalist government "invalidate the very idea they stood for?" The Soviets stood for worker and peasant power. They succeeded in establishing that very concept and turning it into concrete political reality. As for the idea of the Bolsheviks "purging people," you are referring to the ensuing Civil War, where the workers and peasants joined the Bolsheviks and the Red Army. Even anarchists largely joined the Red Army to fight off the Whites. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 10 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago (7 children) Nothing I have said is historically inaccurate. The Bolsheviks opposed cadets, mensheviks, and other groups that wished to retain the Tsar's colonies, wanted to prolong the war, and opposed Soviet power. The Soviets were a connected system, itself a state. Overthrowing the provisional government and solidifying the Soviet state as the only state does not oppose their purpose in the slightest, and it was a decision democratically approved. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 7 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago (5 children) I have read historically accurate accounts, though you define historical accuracy by it not being written by anyone succeeding. I've also asked for sources, and you haven't brought any beyond linking the anarchist library. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] calmblue75@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago (1 child) You still haven't provided any sources permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Oppopity@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago Yes but they started their sentences with "more historical inaccuracies" and "more fan-fiction" for the fifth time now and surely that counts for something. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (3 replies) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (2 replies) load more comments (4 replies)
[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago (15 children) Nope, no historical inaccuracies. You're referring to the Right-SRs, who had recently split from the Left-SRs. The rural socialists banded together with the Bolsheviks in a coalition. You're also ignoring that the workers and peasants already saw the provisional government as illegitimate, backing the Soviets. The anarchists may have had what they believed were good ideas, but the proletariat and peasantry largely disagreed and agreed with the socialists, who coalesced around the Bolsheviks. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 15 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 9 points 5 months ago (10 children) Why would the Soviets overthrowing the capitalist government "invalidate the very idea they stood for?" The Soviets stood for worker and peasant power. They succeeded in establishing that very concept and turning it into concrete political reality. As for the idea of the Bolsheviks "purging people," you are referring to the ensuing Civil War, where the workers and peasants joined the Bolsheviks and the Red Army. Even anarchists largely joined the Red Army to fight off the Whites. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 10 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago (7 children) Nothing I have said is historically inaccurate. The Bolsheviks opposed cadets, mensheviks, and other groups that wished to retain the Tsar's colonies, wanted to prolong the war, and opposed Soviet power. The Soviets were a connected system, itself a state. Overthrowing the provisional government and solidifying the Soviet state as the only state does not oppose their purpose in the slightest, and it was a decision democratically approved. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 7 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago (5 children) I have read historically accurate accounts, though you define historical accuracy by it not being written by anyone succeeding. I've also asked for sources, and you haven't brought any beyond linking the anarchist library. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] calmblue75@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago (1 child) You still haven't provided any sources permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Oppopity@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago Yes but they started their sentences with "more historical inaccuracies" and "more fan-fiction" for the fifth time now and surely that counts for something. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (3 replies) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (2 replies) load more comments (4 replies)
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 9 points 5 months ago (10 children) Why would the Soviets overthrowing the capitalist government "invalidate the very idea they stood for?" The Soviets stood for worker and peasant power. They succeeded in establishing that very concept and turning it into concrete political reality. As for the idea of the Bolsheviks "purging people," you are referring to the ensuing Civil War, where the workers and peasants joined the Bolsheviks and the Red Army. Even anarchists largely joined the Red Army to fight off the Whites. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 10 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago (7 children) Nothing I have said is historically inaccurate. The Bolsheviks opposed cadets, mensheviks, and other groups that wished to retain the Tsar's colonies, wanted to prolong the war, and opposed Soviet power. The Soviets were a connected system, itself a state. Overthrowing the provisional government and solidifying the Soviet state as the only state does not oppose their purpose in the slightest, and it was a decision democratically approved. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 7 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago (5 children) I have read historically accurate accounts, though you define historical accuracy by it not being written by anyone succeeding. I've also asked for sources, and you haven't brought any beyond linking the anarchist library. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] calmblue75@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago (1 child) You still haven't provided any sources permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Oppopity@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago Yes but they started their sentences with "more historical inaccuracies" and "more fan-fiction" for the fifth time now and surely that counts for something. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (3 replies) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (2 replies)
[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 9 points 5 months ago (10 children) Why would the Soviets overthrowing the capitalist government "invalidate the very idea they stood for?" The Soviets stood for worker and peasant power. They succeeded in establishing that very concept and turning it into concrete political reality. As for the idea of the Bolsheviks "purging people," you are referring to the ensuing Civil War, where the workers and peasants joined the Bolsheviks and the Red Army. Even anarchists largely joined the Red Army to fight off the Whites. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 10 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago (7 children) Nothing I have said is historically inaccurate. The Bolsheviks opposed cadets, mensheviks, and other groups that wished to retain the Tsar's colonies, wanted to prolong the war, and opposed Soviet power. The Soviets were a connected system, itself a state. Overthrowing the provisional government and solidifying the Soviet state as the only state does not oppose their purpose in the slightest, and it was a decision democratically approved. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 7 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago (5 children) I have read historically accurate accounts, though you define historical accuracy by it not being written by anyone succeeding. I've also asked for sources, and you haven't brought any beyond linking the anarchist library. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] calmblue75@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago (1 child) You still haven't provided any sources permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Oppopity@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago Yes but they started their sentences with "more historical inaccuracies" and "more fan-fiction" for the fifth time now and surely that counts for something. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (3 replies) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (2 replies)
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago (7 children) Nothing I have said is historically inaccurate. The Bolsheviks opposed cadets, mensheviks, and other groups that wished to retain the Tsar's colonies, wanted to prolong the war, and opposed Soviet power. The Soviets were a connected system, itself a state. Overthrowing the provisional government and solidifying the Soviet state as the only state does not oppose their purpose in the slightest, and it was a decision democratically approved. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 7 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago (5 children) I have read historically accurate accounts, though you define historical accuracy by it not being written by anyone succeeding. I've also asked for sources, and you haven't brought any beyond linking the anarchist library. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] calmblue75@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago (1 child) You still haven't provided any sources permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Oppopity@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago Yes but they started their sentences with "more historical inaccuracies" and "more fan-fiction" for the fifth time now and surely that counts for something. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (3 replies) load more comments (1 reply)
[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago (7 children) Nothing I have said is historically inaccurate. The Bolsheviks opposed cadets, mensheviks, and other groups that wished to retain the Tsar's colonies, wanted to prolong the war, and opposed Soviet power. The Soviets were a connected system, itself a state. Overthrowing the provisional government and solidifying the Soviet state as the only state does not oppose their purpose in the slightest, and it was a decision democratically approved. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 7 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago (5 children) I have read historically accurate accounts, though you define historical accuracy by it not being written by anyone succeeding. I've also asked for sources, and you haven't brought any beyond linking the anarchist library. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] calmblue75@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago (1 child) You still haven't provided any sources permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Oppopity@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago Yes but they started their sentences with "more historical inaccuracies" and "more fan-fiction" for the fifth time now and surely that counts for something. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (3 replies) load more comments (1 reply)
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago (5 children) I have read historically accurate accounts, though you define historical accuracy by it not being written by anyone succeeding. I've also asked for sources, and you haven't brought any beyond linking the anarchist library. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] calmblue75@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago (1 child) You still haven't provided any sources permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Oppopity@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago Yes but they started their sentences with "more historical inaccuracies" and "more fan-fiction" for the fifth time now and surely that counts for something. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (3 replies)
[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago (5 children) I have read historically accurate accounts, though you define historical accuracy by it not being written by anyone succeeding. I've also asked for sources, and you haven't brought any beyond linking the anarchist library. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] calmblue75@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago (1 child) You still haven't provided any sources permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Oppopity@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago Yes but they started their sentences with "more historical inaccuracies" and "more fan-fiction" for the fifth time now and surely that counts for something. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (3 replies)
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] calmblue75@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago (1 child) You still haven't provided any sources permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Oppopity@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago Yes but they started their sentences with "more historical inaccuracies" and "more fan-fiction" for the fifth time now and surely that counts for something. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] calmblue75@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago (1 child) You still haven't provided any sources permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Oppopity@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago Yes but they started their sentences with "more historical inaccuracies" and "more fan-fiction" for the fifth time now and surely that counts for something. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Oppopity@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago Yes but they started their sentences with "more historical inaccuracies" and "more fan-fiction" for the fifth time now and surely that counts for something. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 9 points 5 months ago (17 children) I think the texts written by socialists building socialism are valuable insights into the actual struggles run into when building socialism. I also believe labeling them "counter-revolutionaries" without demonstrating how and why this is the case is an entirely ineffective means of argument, I've already made it clear that I consider socialist states to be real, and I back up those claims with historical and theoretical evidence when needed. Simply saying "no" is not an argument, and telling me I'm removed from praxis and reality when I know this isn't the case is naked Ad Hominem. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 17 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (16 children) I agree that simple claims do not make a state socialist. I never made claims to the contrary. What makes a state socialist is proletarian control of the state, and public ownership as the principal aspect of the economy. All practical reality, contrary to your position, backs up this position. State capitalism refers to a bourgeois economy with heavy state planning, yet capitalist control of the state and the social surplus. Think the Republic of Korea, Singapore, etc. The NEP, China's and Vietnam's socialist market economies, all of these are largely differentiated from state capitalism through the class character of the state, and having public ownership as the principal aspect of the economy. Calling these "state capitalist" despite clear differences with the ROK, Singapore, etc. in form, direction, and results erases class from the state. Socialist planned economies take this further, having been farther along in eliminating private property. The DPRK, Cuba, and mid-late USSR are all examples of this form of socialist economy. This is where it makes even less sense to describe these as "state capitalism," you're just using capitalism to refer to industrial production at this point. Such a clear mislabeling makes utter mud of how we view socialism. This is not mere phraseology, but a practical investigation of what makes a class, which is defined by relation to ownership of the means of production. Administrators in socialism are not a "tiny ruling elite," they are a subsection of the broader proletariat, and share equal ownership of the means of production in practical terms, not merely formal phrasemongering. If the CPSU were a "tiny ruling elite," they certainly sucked at being so! Certainly you can see the clear difference between salaried workers and capital owners entitling themselves to the near entirety of the social surplus? Regarding the Russian revolution, I have read a great deal about it, as well as the period of early socialist construction, industrialization, collectivization, preparation for World War II, and the post-War economy, including reforms that weakened the socialist system and contributed partially towards its disollution. Lenin and the Bolsheviks were by no means counter-revolutionaries, even if you considered the NEP to be state capitalism, they abolished this and collectivized the economy. There's absolutely nothing backing what you've claimed. The Germans allowed Lenin to go to overthrow the Russian government precisely because they sought chaos, and even then it was dangerous for Lenin to do so as many people hated the idea. He had to travel covertly. Regarding the Ad Hominem, no, I did no such thing. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 16 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 5 months ago (11 children) In socialist states, ownership and control is held in the hands of the proletariat. Delegation and administration is built up precisely due to the necessity of administrative labor, this does not make salaried administrators a separate owner class. Teachers and principals are both proletarian, even if the form of labor is different, even if the pay is different, because they share the same class interests and relations to the means of production and distribution. What makes a society socialist is proletarian control of the state, and public ownership as the principal aspect of the economy. Plain and simple. Calling entirely different economic systems capitalist as a means to discredit socialism is a subjectivist argument, it doesn't get us any closer to the truth. As for me "disagreeing with historical fact," I'd love an explanation of how I do that. You do seem to admit to trying to convince me, so perhaps you could play ball and actually give me some examples, arguments, and literature? I'm utterly uninterested in subjectivist declarations devoid of any actual substance, without actual examples and arguments I couldn't even be convinced by you if I wanted to be. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 11 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 11 points 5 months ago (4 children) Monopolizing state power in the hands of the working classes is putting the working classes in power. The state is not outside of class struggle, but within it, and arises from it. None of my logic has been circular. As for your strategy, you reveal your utter disdain for actual organizing work when you claim you would be "doing my research for me." I am openly inviting you to share what you think are good ideas, and instead you insult me. This attitude is aristocratic, the workers are not good enough for your knowledge, they just have to trust whatever it is you say, and if they don't, they are not worthy. I never claimed to be your boss, nor am I a part of a vanguard party, as no party can declare itself as such. If you do org work in real life, I suggest you try to actually engage with those who disagree with you, or else you'll have an extremely difficult time gaining new members. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 5 months ago (3 children) None of this was ad-hominem. I did not say your claims were wrong because you have an aristocratic viewpoint, I explained your aristocratic attitude and how that impacts potential org-work. Revolution is definitely praxis, and I'm not sure what you mean by "armchair communist," I organize in real life. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments load more comments (3 replies) load more comments (6 replies) load more comments (4 replies)
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (16 children) I agree that simple claims do not make a state socialist. I never made claims to the contrary. What makes a state socialist is proletarian control of the state, and public ownership as the principal aspect of the economy. All practical reality, contrary to your position, backs up this position. State capitalism refers to a bourgeois economy with heavy state planning, yet capitalist control of the state and the social surplus. Think the Republic of Korea, Singapore, etc. The NEP, China's and Vietnam's socialist market economies, all of these are largely differentiated from state capitalism through the class character of the state, and having public ownership as the principal aspect of the economy. Calling these "state capitalist" despite clear differences with the ROK, Singapore, etc. in form, direction, and results erases class from the state. Socialist planned economies take this further, having been farther along in eliminating private property. The DPRK, Cuba, and mid-late USSR are all examples of this form of socialist economy. This is where it makes even less sense to describe these as "state capitalism," you're just using capitalism to refer to industrial production at this point. Such a clear mislabeling makes utter mud of how we view socialism. This is not mere phraseology, but a practical investigation of what makes a class, which is defined by relation to ownership of the means of production. Administrators in socialism are not a "tiny ruling elite," they are a subsection of the broader proletariat, and share equal ownership of the means of production in practical terms, not merely formal phrasemongering. If the CPSU were a "tiny ruling elite," they certainly sucked at being so! Certainly you can see the clear difference between salaried workers and capital owners entitling themselves to the near entirety of the social surplus? Regarding the Russian revolution, I have read a great deal about it, as well as the period of early socialist construction, industrialization, collectivization, preparation for World War II, and the post-War economy, including reforms that weakened the socialist system and contributed partially towards its disollution. Lenin and the Bolsheviks were by no means counter-revolutionaries, even if you considered the NEP to be state capitalism, they abolished this and collectivized the economy. There's absolutely nothing backing what you've claimed. The Germans allowed Lenin to go to overthrow the Russian government precisely because they sought chaos, and even then it was dangerous for Lenin to do so as many people hated the idea. He had to travel covertly. Regarding the Ad Hominem, no, I did no such thing. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 16 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 5 months ago (11 children) In socialist states, ownership and control is held in the hands of the proletariat. Delegation and administration is built up precisely due to the necessity of administrative labor, this does not make salaried administrators a separate owner class. Teachers and principals are both proletarian, even if the form of labor is different, even if the pay is different, because they share the same class interests and relations to the means of production and distribution. What makes a society socialist is proletarian control of the state, and public ownership as the principal aspect of the economy. Plain and simple. Calling entirely different economic systems capitalist as a means to discredit socialism is a subjectivist argument, it doesn't get us any closer to the truth. As for me "disagreeing with historical fact," I'd love an explanation of how I do that. You do seem to admit to trying to convince me, so perhaps you could play ball and actually give me some examples, arguments, and literature? I'm utterly uninterested in subjectivist declarations devoid of any actual substance, without actual examples and arguments I couldn't even be convinced by you if I wanted to be. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 11 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 11 points 5 months ago (4 children) Monopolizing state power in the hands of the working classes is putting the working classes in power. The state is not outside of class struggle, but within it, and arises from it. None of my logic has been circular. As for your strategy, you reveal your utter disdain for actual organizing work when you claim you would be "doing my research for me." I am openly inviting you to share what you think are good ideas, and instead you insult me. This attitude is aristocratic, the workers are not good enough for your knowledge, they just have to trust whatever it is you say, and if they don't, they are not worthy. I never claimed to be your boss, nor am I a part of a vanguard party, as no party can declare itself as such. If you do org work in real life, I suggest you try to actually engage with those who disagree with you, or else you'll have an extremely difficult time gaining new members. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 5 months ago (3 children) None of this was ad-hominem. I did not say your claims were wrong because you have an aristocratic viewpoint, I explained your aristocratic attitude and how that impacts potential org-work. Revolution is definitely praxis, and I'm not sure what you mean by "armchair communist," I organize in real life. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments load more comments (3 replies) load more comments (6 replies) load more comments (4 replies)
[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (16 children) I agree that simple claims do not make a state socialist. I never made claims to the contrary. What makes a state socialist is proletarian control of the state, and public ownership as the principal aspect of the economy. All practical reality, contrary to your position, backs up this position. State capitalism refers to a bourgeois economy with heavy state planning, yet capitalist control of the state and the social surplus. Think the Republic of Korea, Singapore, etc. The NEP, China's and Vietnam's socialist market economies, all of these are largely differentiated from state capitalism through the class character of the state, and having public ownership as the principal aspect of the economy. Calling these "state capitalist" despite clear differences with the ROK, Singapore, etc. in form, direction, and results erases class from the state. Socialist planned economies take this further, having been farther along in eliminating private property. The DPRK, Cuba, and mid-late USSR are all examples of this form of socialist economy. This is where it makes even less sense to describe these as "state capitalism," you're just using capitalism to refer to industrial production at this point. Such a clear mislabeling makes utter mud of how we view socialism. This is not mere phraseology, but a practical investigation of what makes a class, which is defined by relation to ownership of the means of production. Administrators in socialism are not a "tiny ruling elite," they are a subsection of the broader proletariat, and share equal ownership of the means of production in practical terms, not merely formal phrasemongering. If the CPSU were a "tiny ruling elite," they certainly sucked at being so! Certainly you can see the clear difference between salaried workers and capital owners entitling themselves to the near entirety of the social surplus? Regarding the Russian revolution, I have read a great deal about it, as well as the period of early socialist construction, industrialization, collectivization, preparation for World War II, and the post-War economy, including reforms that weakened the socialist system and contributed partially towards its disollution. Lenin and the Bolsheviks were by no means counter-revolutionaries, even if you considered the NEP to be state capitalism, they abolished this and collectivized the economy. There's absolutely nothing backing what you've claimed. The Germans allowed Lenin to go to overthrow the Russian government precisely because they sought chaos, and even then it was dangerous for Lenin to do so as many people hated the idea. He had to travel covertly. Regarding the Ad Hominem, no, I did no such thing. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 16 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 5 months ago (11 children) In socialist states, ownership and control is held in the hands of the proletariat. Delegation and administration is built up precisely due to the necessity of administrative labor, this does not make salaried administrators a separate owner class. Teachers and principals are both proletarian, even if the form of labor is different, even if the pay is different, because they share the same class interests and relations to the means of production and distribution. What makes a society socialist is proletarian control of the state, and public ownership as the principal aspect of the economy. Plain and simple. Calling entirely different economic systems capitalist as a means to discredit socialism is a subjectivist argument, it doesn't get us any closer to the truth. As for me "disagreeing with historical fact," I'd love an explanation of how I do that. You do seem to admit to trying to convince me, so perhaps you could play ball and actually give me some examples, arguments, and literature? I'm utterly uninterested in subjectivist declarations devoid of any actual substance, without actual examples and arguments I couldn't even be convinced by you if I wanted to be. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 11 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 11 points 5 months ago (4 children) Monopolizing state power in the hands of the working classes is putting the working classes in power. The state is not outside of class struggle, but within it, and arises from it. None of my logic has been circular. As for your strategy, you reveal your utter disdain for actual organizing work when you claim you would be "doing my research for me." I am openly inviting you to share what you think are good ideas, and instead you insult me. This attitude is aristocratic, the workers are not good enough for your knowledge, they just have to trust whatever it is you say, and if they don't, they are not worthy. I never claimed to be your boss, nor am I a part of a vanguard party, as no party can declare itself as such. If you do org work in real life, I suggest you try to actually engage with those who disagree with you, or else you'll have an extremely difficult time gaining new members. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 5 months ago (3 children) None of this was ad-hominem. I did not say your claims were wrong because you have an aristocratic viewpoint, I explained your aristocratic attitude and how that impacts potential org-work. Revolution is definitely praxis, and I'm not sure what you mean by "armchair communist," I organize in real life. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments load more comments (3 replies) load more comments (6 replies) load more comments (4 replies)
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 5 months ago (11 children) In socialist states, ownership and control is held in the hands of the proletariat. Delegation and administration is built up precisely due to the necessity of administrative labor, this does not make salaried administrators a separate owner class. Teachers and principals are both proletarian, even if the form of labor is different, even if the pay is different, because they share the same class interests and relations to the means of production and distribution. What makes a society socialist is proletarian control of the state, and public ownership as the principal aspect of the economy. Plain and simple. Calling entirely different economic systems capitalist as a means to discredit socialism is a subjectivist argument, it doesn't get us any closer to the truth. As for me "disagreeing with historical fact," I'd love an explanation of how I do that. You do seem to admit to trying to convince me, so perhaps you could play ball and actually give me some examples, arguments, and literature? I'm utterly uninterested in subjectivist declarations devoid of any actual substance, without actual examples and arguments I couldn't even be convinced by you if I wanted to be. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 11 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 11 points 5 months ago (4 children) Monopolizing state power in the hands of the working classes is putting the working classes in power. The state is not outside of class struggle, but within it, and arises from it. None of my logic has been circular. As for your strategy, you reveal your utter disdain for actual organizing work when you claim you would be "doing my research for me." I am openly inviting you to share what you think are good ideas, and instead you insult me. This attitude is aristocratic, the workers are not good enough for your knowledge, they just have to trust whatever it is you say, and if they don't, they are not worthy. I never claimed to be your boss, nor am I a part of a vanguard party, as no party can declare itself as such. If you do org work in real life, I suggest you try to actually engage with those who disagree with you, or else you'll have an extremely difficult time gaining new members. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 5 months ago (3 children) None of this was ad-hominem. I did not say your claims were wrong because you have an aristocratic viewpoint, I explained your aristocratic attitude and how that impacts potential org-work. Revolution is definitely praxis, and I'm not sure what you mean by "armchair communist," I organize in real life. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments load more comments (3 replies) load more comments (6 replies)
[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 5 months ago (11 children) In socialist states, ownership and control is held in the hands of the proletariat. Delegation and administration is built up precisely due to the necessity of administrative labor, this does not make salaried administrators a separate owner class. Teachers and principals are both proletarian, even if the form of labor is different, even if the pay is different, because they share the same class interests and relations to the means of production and distribution. What makes a society socialist is proletarian control of the state, and public ownership as the principal aspect of the economy. Plain and simple. Calling entirely different economic systems capitalist as a means to discredit socialism is a subjectivist argument, it doesn't get us any closer to the truth. As for me "disagreeing with historical fact," I'd love an explanation of how I do that. You do seem to admit to trying to convince me, so perhaps you could play ball and actually give me some examples, arguments, and literature? I'm utterly uninterested in subjectivist declarations devoid of any actual substance, without actual examples and arguments I couldn't even be convinced by you if I wanted to be. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 11 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 11 points 5 months ago (4 children) Monopolizing state power in the hands of the working classes is putting the working classes in power. The state is not outside of class struggle, but within it, and arises from it. None of my logic has been circular. As for your strategy, you reveal your utter disdain for actual organizing work when you claim you would be "doing my research for me." I am openly inviting you to share what you think are good ideas, and instead you insult me. This attitude is aristocratic, the workers are not good enough for your knowledge, they just have to trust whatever it is you say, and if they don't, they are not worthy. I never claimed to be your boss, nor am I a part of a vanguard party, as no party can declare itself as such. If you do org work in real life, I suggest you try to actually engage with those who disagree with you, or else you'll have an extremely difficult time gaining new members. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 5 months ago (3 children) None of this was ad-hominem. I did not say your claims were wrong because you have an aristocratic viewpoint, I explained your aristocratic attitude and how that impacts potential org-work. Revolution is definitely praxis, and I'm not sure what you mean by "armchair communist," I organize in real life. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments load more comments (3 replies) load more comments (6 replies)
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 11 points 5 months ago (4 children) Monopolizing state power in the hands of the working classes is putting the working classes in power. The state is not outside of class struggle, but within it, and arises from it. None of my logic has been circular. As for your strategy, you reveal your utter disdain for actual organizing work when you claim you would be "doing my research for me." I am openly inviting you to share what you think are good ideas, and instead you insult me. This attitude is aristocratic, the workers are not good enough for your knowledge, they just have to trust whatever it is you say, and if they don't, they are not worthy. I never claimed to be your boss, nor am I a part of a vanguard party, as no party can declare itself as such. If you do org work in real life, I suggest you try to actually engage with those who disagree with you, or else you'll have an extremely difficult time gaining new members. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 5 months ago (3 children) None of this was ad-hominem. I did not say your claims were wrong because you have an aristocratic viewpoint, I explained your aristocratic attitude and how that impacts potential org-work. Revolution is definitely praxis, and I'm not sure what you mean by "armchair communist," I organize in real life. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments load more comments (3 replies)
[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 11 points 5 months ago (4 children) Monopolizing state power in the hands of the working classes is putting the working classes in power. The state is not outside of class struggle, but within it, and arises from it. None of my logic has been circular. As for your strategy, you reveal your utter disdain for actual organizing work when you claim you would be "doing my research for me." I am openly inviting you to share what you think are good ideas, and instead you insult me. This attitude is aristocratic, the workers are not good enough for your knowledge, they just have to trust whatever it is you say, and if they don't, they are not worthy. I never claimed to be your boss, nor am I a part of a vanguard party, as no party can declare itself as such. If you do org work in real life, I suggest you try to actually engage with those who disagree with you, or else you'll have an extremely difficult time gaining new members. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 5 months ago (3 children) None of this was ad-hominem. I did not say your claims were wrong because you have an aristocratic viewpoint, I explained your aristocratic attitude and how that impacts potential org-work. Revolution is definitely praxis, and I'm not sure what you mean by "armchair communist," I organize in real life. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments load more comments (3 replies)
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 5 months ago (3 children) None of this was ad-hominem. I did not say your claims were wrong because you have an aristocratic viewpoint, I explained your aristocratic attitude and how that impacts potential org-work. Revolution is definitely praxis, and I'm not sure what you mean by "armchair communist," I organize in real life. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments load more comments (3 replies)
[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 5 months ago (3 children) None of this was ad-hominem. I did not say your claims were wrong because you have an aristocratic viewpoint, I explained your aristocratic attitude and how that impacts potential org-work. Revolution is definitely praxis, and I'm not sure what you mean by "armchair communist," I organize in real life. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments load more comments (3 replies)
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) I'd believe it if I were a bystander, povoq is doing this extremely well if he wants to validate my points uncontested. As funny as it would be, I am not secretly a solarpunk admin. Edit: Edie is clearly joking, for whoever is downvoting it. Edie isn't actually accusing me of making an alt to argue with. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) I'd believe it if I were a bystander, povoq is doing this extremely well if he wants to validate my points uncontested. As funny as it would be, I am not secretly a solarpunk admin. Edit: Edie is clearly joking, for whoever is downvoting it. Edie isn't actually accusing me of making an alt to argue with. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] ZeroHora@lemmy.ml 11 points 5 months ago (5 children) But if they had learned from their mistakes, it would have improved, but unfortunately those very same error were repeated multiple time (see the multiple famines the USSR faced while strangely their western counterparts did not. What other famine after holodomor? I can only think of one but was during siege from the nazis. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments load more comments (5 replies)
[–] ZeroHora@lemmy.ml 11 points 5 months ago (5 children) But if they had learned from their mistakes, it would have improved, but unfortunately those very same error were repeated multiple time (see the multiple famines the USSR faced while strangely their western counterparts did not. What other famine after holodomor? I can only think of one but was during siege from the nazis. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments load more comments (5 replies)
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] emergencyfood@sh.itjust.works 9 points 5 months ago (2 children) The state ownership of production is deliberate, and aimed at improving efficiency and allowing forward planning. One (or a few, if you want competition) large factory is more efficient than a bunch of smaller workshops. State ownership can lead to corruption, as you pointed out, but it is a conscious choice and not happenstance. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments load more comments (2 replies)
[–] emergencyfood@sh.itjust.works 9 points 5 months ago (2 children) The state ownership of production is deliberate, and aimed at improving efficiency and allowing forward planning. One (or a few, if you want competition) large factory is more efficient than a bunch of smaller workshops. State ownership can lead to corruption, as you pointed out, but it is a conscious choice and not happenstance. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments load more comments (2 replies)