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[–] 25 points 5 months ago* (31 children)

You literally supported Rhodesia.

You don't get to make moral arguments that anyone takes seriously and you sure don't get to criticize others arguments. Yours led you to support Rhodesia.

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  • [–] 21 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (3 children)

    Holy shit? There are Rhodesia apologists on Lemmy?

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  • [+] -10 points 5 months ago (26 children)

    Lol, you continue to make up funny stories that have nothing to do with reality. I never "supported Rhodesia".

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  • [–] 16 points 5 months ago (25 children)

    you do support the fascist regime in Ukraine tho, or gonna pretend that's also a funny story fash?

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  • [+] -10 points 5 months ago (24 children)

    I don't support any government, but I recognize the right of the Ukranian people to defend themselves against imperial aggression.

    And you specifically should be very careful about calling other people "fash" given your long history of supporting authoritarian state-capitalist regimes or worse.

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  • [–] 7 points 5 months ago (8 children)

    Do the people of Donetsk and Luhansk have a right to defend themselves against the Banderite regime in Kiev? That's what the modern war spiraled out from, a Banderite coup spilling into a civil war.

    As for state capitalism, I don't support Singapore or the Republic of Korea. I support socialist market economies and socialist planned economies, as I support socialism in general, and there's a wide gulf between state capitalism and socialism when it comes to which class is on top.

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  • [–] -2 points 5 months ago (7 children)

    If you had written this in 2014 or shortly after, I would have agreed, but a lot has happend since then.

    And I think we will have to agree to disagree about a self-proclaimed "vanguard" or party functionaries representing the working class in any shape or form.

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  • [–] 8 points 5 months ago (6 children)

    Sure, a lot has indeed happened. I don't think it invalidates my question.

    Vanguards do not proclaim themselves as such, they become them through popular support from the people. This is not mere tautology, a vanguard cannot succeed in its aims alone, it requires the rest of the proletariat to rally behind it and legitimize it. It cannot be self-legitimizing.

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  • [–] -3 points 5 months ago* (5 children)

    Which question? All people have the right to defend themselves against outside aggression. This obviously includes the people of eastern Ukraine. But the imperial war of aggression by the Russian side has long overshadowed the localized conflict that started around 2014, and by now people that didn't agree with the Russian occupation are either dead or have fled.

    And your argument about the vanguard is on the same logical level as monarchs proclaiming to be loved by their subjects 🙄 Completely circular logic that really no one buys, including people that actually live(d) under such regimes.

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  • [–] 6 points 5 months ago (4 children)

    I was referring to this question:

    Do the people of Donetsk and Luhansk have a right to defend themselves against the Banderite regime in Kiev?

    Russia entering the war at the request of the DPR and LPR is an extension of that question, when faced with a regime intent on ethnically cleansing the Donbass region the people of the DPR and LPR extended a request for support.

    As for saying vanguard parties deriving their support from the people, I already explained this is not circular. The monarchy was a small class that wielded the power of the feudal state to keep the peasantry in line, and were thus entitled to vast riches.

    Vanguard parties are formed from within the working classes, succeed in revolution only through mass revolt, and once taking political power in the hands of the working classes have the same class interests as the rest of the proletariat, that being collectivization of production and distribution in the hands of the socialist state. Administrators are wage laborers, not owners of capital, and thus are not a unique owning class but instead a subsection of the proletariat.

    It isn't even true that people living in socialist countries perceive administration as a unique class. The majority of people who lived in Eastern European socialism regret its fall, the broad majority supported their government and played an active role in running society.

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  • [–] -3 points 5 months ago (3 children)

    By the time the Russians decided to send actual forces instead of just undercover puppets, there was nothing you could even remotely call "banderite" in power in Kyiv. Because as flawed as the Ukrainian democracy might be, there were actual elections and those right-wing parties that briefly took power after 2014 had long lost it by then.

    Those self proclaimed republics also didn't have real democratic legitimisation nor was there broad support in these regions for asking the Russians to intervene.

    The rest of your argument is more circular logic, and nostalgia for regimes propped up by petro-dollars in it's later years is neither uncommon, nor does it reflect in actual voting behaviour of these very same people today (if they are allowed to vote in free and fair elections).

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  • [–] 6 points 5 months ago* (2 children)

    The voting records pre-coup paint a very clear picture:

    Despite the democratic process, far-right Banderites took over the government, and began ethnically repressing those in the Donbass, resulting in Donetsk and Luhansk seceding. Contrary to your position, fascism has been rising in Ukraine post-2014, with the Banderite state pushing for normalization of Nazism. This is why there are so many Nazis constantly caught on camera in various Ukrainian forces.

    As for the fact that salaried administrators are not in fact the same as capitalists, what part of this is circular? Proletarian vanguards come into power via the proletariat, this is the first ruling class in history to be of the working classes. All prior ruling classes have been of the owning classes. You are erasing class and vital context to equate systems with states despite massively different forms and results.

    If you are skeptical of people directly telling you they lived better lives in socialism because it was in the past, why not ask those presently living in socialism? Well over 90% of Chinese citizens support their government.

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  • [–] -2 points 5 months ago (1 child)

    The Victor Yanukovyth government did not proposed annexation by Russia, and thus these voting results are no argument that people in these regions were in favour of such.

    And there are also many Nazis constantly seen in Russian forces, or Americal forces, or German forces... your argument is completly pointless in that regard. And by the time the Russians started their full force attempt at imperial annexation the right-wing parties were not in Government and had only a very small representation in the Ukrainian parliarment.

    China is the example of state-capitalism par exellence. So your argument is that 90% of the Chinese supposedly are in favour of capitalism? 🤡

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  • [–] 5 points 5 months ago

    The voting regions absolutely show the modern division in Ukraine, between the Banderites and the Donbass region. The political lines did not change, the governments did. The government of Ukraine itself is far-right, even if the parties are not the same as the coup.

    As for China, I very clearly explained how it is a socialist market economy. The working classes control the state, and public ownership is the principal aspect of the economy. This has had enormously positive results, and as time goes on marketization is shrinking in favor of more planned economy. See Cheng Enfu:

    Your refusal to grasp the key differences between capitalism and socialism turn you to logical pretzels.

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  • [–] 11 points 5 months ago* (10 children)

    Oh, but you do support a government in tangible terms because you support the war the regime is fighting and the atrocities it commits against its people. The regime literally kidnaps people off the street and forces them into fighting. You've openly stated many times that you support continuation of the war and that you stand on the side of a openly fascist regime. That makes you a fascist.

    Also, imagine being over the age of 13 and using terms like authoritarian. 🤡

    The term authoritarianism is utterly meaningless because all governments rely on coercion to maintain their authority. The state is fundamentally an instrument that’s used by the ruling class to maintain its dominance. The whole notion that political systems can be neatly categorized into authoritarian or democratic binaries is deeply infantile.

    The reality is that every government derives its authority from its monopoly on legal violence. The ability to enforce laws, suppress dissent, and maintain order is derived from control over police, military, and judicial systems. Whether a government is labelled authoritarian or democratic, the fundamental basis of its power lies here. Therefore, the only meaningful questions to ask are which class interests it represents, and to what extent can it be held accountable to them.

    What ultimately matters is which class controls the institutions of state violence. In capitalist democracies, the government represent the interests of the economic elites who fund political campaigns, own media outlets, and control key industries. Western public lacks the mechanisms necessary to hold the government to account, and the ruling class is disconnected from the broader population. That’s precisely what’s driving political discontent all across western sphere today. Meanwhile, in so-called authoritarian regimes, the ruling party serves the working class as seen in countries like China, Cuba, or Vietnam. Hence why there is widespread public trust in these government and they enjoy broad support from the masses.

    To add to that, the whole idea of state capitalism is a misnomer. It basically says that while you have state owned enterprise, the internal capitalist relations within it remain largely the same. While that’s true, there is a fundamental difference here. Capitalism is a system where people who own capital hire workers to exploit there labor with the purpose of increasing their capital. The goal of capitalist enterprise is to create wealth for the owners with any social benefits being strictly incidental. On the other hand, the purpose of state enterprise is to provide social value. Workers in state owned companies are producing things that the society needs. They are working for their own benefit and those of others around them. Therefore, the nature of work itself is fundamentally different from actual capitalism.

    I guess I shouldn't be expecting much from somebody who equates a socialist state where means of production are publicly owned with fascism.

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  • [+] -13 points 5 months ago (9 children)

    Nice, another copy-pasta fan-fiction from someone that needs to read more theory 😏

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  • [–] 12 points 5 months ago*

    Nice, another vapid reply from our resident fascist troll. The reply wasn't meant to convince you of anything since we all know exactly what you stand for. It's to educate people on the misinformation you spread here and how to address it.

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  • [–] 11 points 5 months ago

    someone that needs to read more theory 😏

    Yeah you, however in your case a good start would be needing to be able to read anything since you seem to be engaging and arguing with your eyes closed

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  • [–] 7 points 5 months ago (5 children)

    Do you have theory to suggest?

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  • [–] -3 points 5 months ago (3 children)
  • [–] 6 points 5 months ago (2 children)

    I've read a fair bit from there, I used to be an anarchist many years ago. Do you have anything specific that's relevant to the discussion here?

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  • [+] -6 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (1 child)

    Your arguments make it very clear that you were a lifestyle anarchist at best. Come back when you have engaged with anarchist texts a bit more, because I am not going to do it for you, nor do I have some copy-pasta ready to dump here.

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  • [–] 10 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

    Do you earnestly think insult is any way to motivate someone to revisit a body of theory they've already engaged with? In absence of any recommendation on your part, I have very little reason to revisit what I've come to disagree with, beyond making sure that my understanding is still correct and seeing if there's anything useful for me.

    What "anarchist power level" do I need in order to have a conversation with you? How do you go about gaining comrades if this is how you treat those asking for recommendations?

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  • [–] 7 points 5 months ago (2 children)

    the Ukranian people to defend themselves against imperial aggression.

    The Ukranian people want an end to the war, and it's only the US imperial puppet regime the live under that has decided to aggressively kidnap them into vans at gunpoint instead.

    Full support to the brave Ukranians who kill draft officers.

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