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Without a hint of irony, Russia mocks US for 'miscalculating' Iran war (kyivindependent.com)
submitted 8 months ago by to c/globalnews@lemmy.zip
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[+] -28 points 8 months ago (45 children)

It's funny that Ukraine is exposing their own hypocrisy here too. They are defending their own sovereignty against Russia's aggression yet they support US and Israel aggression over Iran defending their own sovereignty.

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  • [–] 62 points 8 months ago (22 children)

    The waters are a little muddier than that, since Iranian weapons have been hitting Ukraine for ages. There's not much hypocrisy to be had there, it's just sad.

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  • [+] -28 points 8 months ago (21 children)

    Nothing is muddy about sovereignty. You either respect it or not. Everything else is just excuses to justify violating it.

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  • [–] 49 points 8 months ago (17 children)

    Iran doesn't respect Ukraine's sovereignty, so Ukraine doesn't respect Iran's. Simple as.

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  • [+] -12 points 8 months ago (4 children)

    Ukraine joined the sanctions on iran in 2007 for the civilian nuclear program and balistic program. That is a breach of Iran sovereignity amd before it with the same regime in place the relation between the two country was decent

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  • [–] 17 points 8 months ago (3 children)

    Choosing not to do business with someone isn't a "breach of sovereignty".

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  • [+] -11 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    Using economic thrats to try ro force a country to not build it's army and security is a breach of sovereigty

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  • [+] -24 points 8 months ago (10 children)

    How so? Did Iran ever breached Ukraine sovereignty?

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  • [–] 17 points 8 months ago (5 children)

    Why exactly does Ukraine have so much experience shooting down Shahed drones?

    Iran has been producing the munitions that have been raining on Ukraine for 4 years.

    I'm going to be real with you, I see no difference between the USA sending Israel munitions to fire on Gaza and Iran sending them to Russia to fire at Ukraine. Either you need to tell me with a straight face that the USA respects Palestinian sovereignty or you need to accept that Iran doesn't respect the sovereignty of Ukraine.

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  • [–] 0 points 8 months ago (4 children)

    I see no difference between the USA sending Israel munitions to fire on Gaza and Iran sending them to Russia to fire at Ukraine.

    There isn't one from sovereignty perspective. Neither US or Iran selling weapons has anything to do sovereignty.

    It has to do with which party is the aggressor and should countries use it as leverage for peace. US didn't commit a genocide in Gaza, they just supported it. Same way, Iran didn't attacked Ukraine, but they do support it. Israel and Russia are the aggressors who are breaching sovereignty.

    Also, if we would remove sanctions from Iran, they could sell those drones to Ukraine or Europe too. Now they are forced to trade with other countries that are already sactioned by US and wouldn't be affected by sactions.

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  • [–] 5 points 8 months ago (3 children)

    Ah, so by your measure Iran providing an eye watering amount of munitions to Russia to attack Ukraine is ultimately the fault of the USA?

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  • [–] -2 points 8 months ago (1 child)

    Are you drunk? Please read what I said and try to understand it.

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  • [–] 9 points 8 months ago

    I must be, because no matter how many times I read your last paragraph, no matter the charity I afford, I can't comprehend and alternative interpretation of your last paragraph. Iran is "FORCED" to sell munitions to Russia. The if clause sets the precondition of that as being the sanctions imposed on them.

    If you didn't intend to imply they don't have a choice (forced) or that the precondition isn't the sanctions imposed by the USA, you could absolutely take another shot at formulating your thoughts.

    I'd say I'd be happy to read them, but based on the aggressiveness of your reply I really am not anticipating I will.

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  • [–] [S] 27 points 8 months ago (3 children)

    Did Iran ever breached Ukraine sovereignty?

    Yes, it did. It has been helping Russia doing so, which is clearly the aggressor in this war.

    If you want to talk about Iranian sovereignty, I suggest you talk with Iranians. They want a regime change in their country more than anyone else.

    Your argumentation here in thread - following a post about Russia's aggression against Ukraine - is disingenuous to say the least. Unfortunately, this kind of watering down autocratic systems is still widespread here on Lemmy.

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  • [+] -12 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    Yes, it did. It has been helping Russia doing so, which is clearly the aggressor in this war.

    How? By trading with it's ally Russia? Same way Ukraine has been trading with it's allies US, EU and others? We are at world war if that's the case for breached sovereignty.

    If you want to talk about Iranian sovereignty, I suggest you talk with Iranians.

    Yes. Something we can agree on. Iranian people should be the only ones who decides how their country is run.

    They want a regime change in their country more than anyone else.

    So the world will lift the sanctions placed on them and let them as citizens of a sovereign nation overthrow their theocratic government?

    Your argumentation here in thread - following a post about Russia's aggression against Ukraine - is disingenuous to say the least.

    I think you are confused and maybe posted in a different thread. "Russia scoffs at US-Israeli 'miscalculation' in Iran, years after failing to take Ukraine in days" was the original title of this article... Ukraine's hypocrisy is very much on point for this article.

    Unfortunately, this kind of watering down autocratic systems is still widespread here on Lemmy.

    Funny you say that. You are in effect the most effective propagandist for theocrats and other autocrats. You celebrate murder of civilians by lawless nations and then pretend to care about civility and rule of law. When that hypocrisy is exposed you are surprised why people are not listening to you.

    I don't care which type of government a country has but I support each country's sovereignty. And if people living in those countries are unhappy about their government, it's up to them and only them to change that. It's doesn't matter if we personally like it or not. It's written in the UN Charter which we all are part of.

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  • [–] [S] 8 points 8 months ago (1 child)

    I don’t care which type of government a country has but I support each country’s sovereignty.

    I don't know which country you are in, but I assume we both are part of the global minority that has won the birth lottery and are now residing in a region with relatively stable democratic institutions, a high standard of living, and the enjoyment of expressing an opinion without fear of the police showing up and make you disappear.

    The UN Charter, the Declaration of Human Rights, and all other international agreements are valuable if respected by everyone that signed them. Countries like Iran, Russia, and China have signed most of these agreements (including the Declaration of Human Rights), but are apparently ignoring them by default. Russia, for example, agreed to more than 20 ceasefire agreement since its Ukraine invasion has began in 2014, and the Kremlin has undermined all of them.

    Iran has now been sending weapons to Russia, supporting its aggression. China has been rightfully named a decisive enabler of Russia in the Ukraine war. Your argument that Ukraine is also supported by the West is dishonest and discredits you, because Ukraine is defending itself. The EU, the US, Australia, New Zealand, Japan, South Korea, Canada, and other democratic states are supporting Ukraine's defense. Iran and China are supporting Russia's aggression.

    This is why we should all care. Because the UN Charter and all other agreements are worthless if not enforced, and we are going in the wrong direction if we don't stop those who breach them.

    Autocratic regimes are not only suppressing their own citizens, they are also actively threatening Western-style democracies and the people there. We must oppose them by all means - militarily, politically, and economically. I don't want, to provide an example, cheap oil and gas from Russia and Iran nor any renewable energy tech from China.

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  • [–] 4 points 8 months ago

    Countries like Iran, Russia, and China have signed most of these agreements (including the Declaration of Human Rights), but are apparently ignoring them by default.

    United States, Israel and Ukraine also signed them. Lets include all parties in the discussion. Israel, for example, managed to violate ceasefire agreement more than 10,000 times in a year in Lebanon alone and those beacons of democracy and decency couldn't say a single fucking word about it.

    Iran has now been sending weapons to Russia, supporting its aggression. China has been rightfully named a decisive enabler of Russia in the Ukraine war. Your argument that Ukraine is also supported by the West is dishonest and discredits you, because Ukraine is defending itself. The EU, the US, Australia, New Zealand, Japan, South Korea, Canada, and other democratic states are supporting Ukraine's defense. Iran and China are supporting Russia's aggression.

    UN Charter doesn't block aggressor or defending country from trading with others. If it did, we would be at World War at this point. That's my argument, not whatever you try to make it.

    Like I said multiple time, I support Ukraine's fight for their sovereignty, but unlike unprincipled people I in the same way support Iran's fight for their sovereignty from US and Israel aggression.

    Because the UN Charter and all other agreements are worthless if not enforced, and we are going in the wrong direction if we don't stop those who breach them.

    Thank you. Can we start with those who commited most breaches then? Like United States who coined the term "double-tap" for their tactic of sending a second Predator drone strike to kill first responders or United Kingdom for their mass rape and war crimes in Iraq or Israel for the biggest war crime of this century where they now openly talk about committing a second genocide this time in Lebanon? Or are we only allow to apply these rules to non-democtratic countries like China, Russia and Iran?

    Autocratic regimes are not only suppressing their own citizens, they are also actively threatening Western-style democracies and the people there. We must oppose them by all means - militarily, politically, and economically.

    So in response we bomb their people there, right? Comic book villain type shit...

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  • [–] 7 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    Whilst it’s a hard bite I understand the stance. I’m a staunch supporter of the Ukraine and unfortunately they have had to make comprises on their position. TBF I think they have balanced well. I am a supporter of Taiwan, I made an effort to buy their products over Chinese where possible, but then they decided to see parts to the Russians and critique Ukraine.

    So I can see how hypocrisy can hurt.

    Ukraine the brave.

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  • [–] -5 points 8 months ago (1 child)

    I do support Ukraine too and will continue to support their fight for sovereignty, but this will do unrepairable damage. Until now they were able to call out Russia for their hypocrisy and people take them seriously, now they are the same double faced liars that they were calling out before.

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  • [–] 17 points 8 months ago

    Yeah, because on one side of the war is their begrudging allies and on the other is an ally to their invader

    Ukraine gets a pass because they're currently being invaded. It's not an ideologicall position to defend yourself, they aren't hypocrits for playing wherever hand they've got

    War is a horrid thing, it makes monsters of us all. The only valid reason is for self defense, and we (theoretically) blame the aggressor for what the victim does in the course of defending themselves

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  • [–] 17 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    Iran is where Russia has been getting it's drones from, so I don't think Ukraine should feel any type of way about Iran being in conflict, it benefits them on the lower level of drone supply going to Russia.

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  • [–] 9 points 8 months ago

    Iran provides thousands of drones to Russia. The US provides weapons to Ukraine.... But Ukraine is supposed to support Iran against the US, bolstering their opponent and pissing off an ally? Because I guess it's better for every man woman and child in Ukraine to be dead and ethically pure than to survive using anything below ideal ethical behaviour??

    Make it make sense please!

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  • [–] 2 points 8 months ago

    geopolitics are far more complicated and simple than "supporting aggression". it is more like "supporting opening the strait of hormuz" and "supporting preexisting political alliances" and "how the fuck did we end up on the same side of this stupid war as the stupid orange one"

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago (14 children)

    Do they support it or just not criticize them for it due to being so reliant on US weaponry?

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  • [–] 6 points 8 months ago (11 children)

    They are actively supporting the attacks by US and Israel. They praised the attacks, met with the exiled monarch and no word about Iran sovereignty.

    They also offered to send drones and drone specialists to the region to shoot down Iranian drones. Which is no different than Iran supplying Russia with drones. If you have issue with that, why are you doing the same?

    Also they are not reliant on US anymore, Europe is almost entirely supplying Ukraine now from weapons to intelligence.

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  • [–] 5 points 8 months ago (5 children)

    Which is no different than Iran supplying Russia with drones.

    Well that's just disingenuous and you know it. There's a big difference between offensive and defensive drones. Iran is helping Russia kill Ukrainians. Ukraine is helping Gulf nations (who didn't start this war) defend themselves from attacks from Iran. No Iranians are dying from Ukrainian drones.

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  • [–] 4 points 8 months ago*

    The military bases are used to provide intel to israel and the usa to murder civilians in Iran including anti regime iranians. Nothing defensive about them. Ukranians did participate in the Iraq occupation nobody can use it to jusify the urrian occupation. Iran providing drones to Russia do not justify the war of agresdion israel and the usa started it

    If ukraine can talk about a peace deal, it could also negociate along europe to make them move from supporting russia to supporting Ukraine

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago (2 children)

    There's a big difference between offensive and defensive drones.

    What a joke. There isn't such a thing as defensive weapon. Weapons are effensive by their fucking nature.

    Ukraine is helping Gulf nations (who didn't start this war) defend themselves from attacks from Iran.

    The same Gulf countries that allow US bases from which attacks are conducted? Do you even believe the shit you say?

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  • [–] 0 points 8 months ago (1 child)

    Seems to be a touchy subject for you so I'll just leave it at this. Take care.

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  • [–] 3 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

    It should be for everyone. We lived through live genocide streamed to the world to see and heard excuse after excuse that nothing could be done because US only supplies defensive weapons to war criminals.

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  • [+] -6 points 8 months ago* (4 children)

    Yup yup yup. Ukraine has been an American colony since they got couped in the early 2010s and Europe is another group of American vassals so saying they're dependent on them doesn't really change much altogether, it's not like they're team BRICS. So it doesn't really matter. Some people are silly enough to see the Russian war on Ukraine in a vacuum, not understanding the efforts America has gone through for decades to isolate, destabilise and control Russia, the coup and following the establishment of Ukraine as another American base (basically just Taiwan of Eastern Europe) would've continued as planned if Russia hadn't attacked them. It still continued but with obvious difficulties, hence the kind of stalemate between Western powers and Russia we see today.

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  • [–] 4 points 8 months ago (3 children)

    Russia is as much a hypocrite here. They are the aggressor using excuses to breach Ukraine's sovereignty in the same naked way as US or Israel does all the fucking time.

    Rich of you to talk about destabiliation as Russia openly interferes in Georgia and Moldova.

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  • [–] -2 points 8 months ago* (2 children)

    Is Russia supposed to move outside of Europe so they don't get choked and invaded by the West (America and dogs, and I live in a dog country, trust me I don't like it either)? Is it their fault they are now surrounded by American vassal states, finally with the Ukrainian takeover (Zelensky was publicly embarrassed with that whole "did you even say thank you?" or whatever that was, scolded like a child and the entire EU was meant to sit like employees listening to daddy Trump seen in that recent infamous picture: even the nature of the relationships between these countries and America, the vassalage, is more than out in the open!)?

    Friend, if you think that the alternative to Russia moving against Ukraine before America managed to build all the military facilities and industry to finally takeover Russia and make the entirety of Europe their vassals is a "non aligned, independent Ukraine", you live in la la land. No, this is somewhat similar to what Iran is doing with its nearby neighbours, except that they got bombed twice and suffered the decapitation of their political and religious leader. They believed in the West, they tried diplomacy, after a coup and the following revolution, after years of economic wars. The difference is that Russia anticipated this to a certain degree (they still got all their money stolen by European banks 🤷), probably because the Russians have already dealt with the West for long enough to know they only know violence and subjugation, not cooperation and integration, so war was always going to happen. So Ukraine got infiltrated and couped (or "had their revolution" if you still buy into propaganda) and the rest is history.

    Also, bear in mind, any country "moving into the Western sphere of influence" is a potential danger to their non-subjugated neighbours, because at any moment America can start building bases and intelligence and then destabilisation or strikes start happening. For Russia, this is existential, same as it is for Iran today. You'll notice you mentioned Russian neighbours and not, idk, Somalia, Iran, Vietnam, Venezuela, etc etc. I feel that speaks for itself, right?

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