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[+] -25 points 1 year ago* (52 children)
  • [–] 23 points 1 year ago (16 children)

    is "the science of biology" code speak for transphobia?

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  • [+] [S] 2 points 1 year ago* (8 children)
  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    I am open to giving benefit of the doubt, but when someone is "apolitical", but also doesn't like left wing talking points, doesn't directly say what they are talking about and vehemently defends russian war of aggression in other threads, I can't help but suspect transphobia.

    Obviously, your story is the other extreme, but I rarely see that side of the discussion.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago*

    anyone that says they are "apolitical, or i hate trump,,but" yea those are right wingers, trying to not be called out. or my favorite is how they pretend to be a center right, or on the left it always begins with" i support this and this dem BUT,,,,"

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  • [+] [S] 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)
  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago

    I mean, yeah, my point isn't that only one side is ever correct, but it does usually lean towards one end of the political spectrum than the other in the online discussions. People who are accepting of LGBT+ are on average more level headed and have better critical thinking. Though you can meet trolls and assholes anywhere if you search hard enough

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    While I don't think the two sexes have the same physical capabilities, I dislike how being a woman is such a hyperspecific category in sports like someone could be born AFAB and lived as a woman their entire life only to be found as intersex in some test and now they're automatically a man and should use masculine pronouns.

    And as someone who is AFAB, growing up I was often discouraged from going outside, and the gym was off-limits, which would've been a disadvantage for me if it wasn't for calisthenics. It's not like the physical strength of a man and woman is so far apart either. Some people even claim that an out-of-shape man can overpower a trained woman. In Tug-of-War I'm able to win against an AMAB and I haven't had any HRT yet lol

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  • [+] [S] 1 point 1 year ago (2 children)
  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago* (1 child)

    No you didn't say anything wrong re: women participating in physical activities, it's just that the professor had a point. Not that the two sexes have the same physical capability or ceiling (your professor didn’t even factor puberty and hormones), but that women aren't as strong as they could be because of how society treats them differently. Lots of girls aren't even allowed to go outside and play rough for example. Because they don't become as physically capable it becomes a feedback loop where people assume they are weak so they are discouraged from physically demanding activities.

    And me mentioning the Tug-of-War thing wasn't about what you said but a statement against the people I mentioned beforehand who claimed that the physical disparity was so high that an out of shape man can beat a trained woman.

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  • [+] -14 points 1 year ago (4 children)
  • [–] 11 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    What people exactly are you referring to?

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  • [–] 22 points 1 year ago* (24 children)
  • [+] [S] -4 points 1 year ago (21 children)
  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago* (17 children)

    Not everyone wants to spend all their energy debating nazis. It's not going to change the nazi's mind.

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  • [+] [S] -1 points 1 year ago (15 children)
  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (13 children)

    So we should just... give up and accept them?

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  • [+] [S] -1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (12 children)
  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (11 children)

    "There will always be nazis" is pretty fatalistic. And beside that point, why can't we do both? Poking holes in their dingbat ideology and shaming them for how vile they are are by no means mutually exclusive.

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  • [+] [S] 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (10 children)
  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago* (9 children)

    (Sorry too many comment threads going so I'm gonna synthesize concepts here to stop the comment fragmentation)

    See here's the disconnect: I don't want them on my side, I don't think they can be brought over to my side, I think they are a lost cause. The reason to explicitly call out their behavior is so people, people who aren't yet too far gone, can see where their rhetoric stems from. I want people to see that that authoritiarian-leaning but largely inoffensive opinion comes from a place of self-loathing masquerading as trolling and nazi adjacent hypercapitalist idol worship. They, Luniatiqueue, can fuck right off. But the person reading the comment, the one that risks being frog-boiled over to sympathizing with their opinions by gradual exposure to more and more authoritarian rhetorical concepts, those people I care about. THOSE people are worth saving, worth engaging with.

    And no, they're not going to be pushed away by seeing someone else get called a nazi for doing things like supporting the literal policies of the nazi party. If someone is that inherently contrarian, so hung up on "polite interaction" that they are only going to criticize that apparent lack of decorum instead of the person claiming that nobody deserves a chance at happiness and dancing around the issue of putting trans people in camps, someone like you, I don't have much hope for them.

    Maybe they can be reached, but they're already teetering on the edge, and spending my time worrying about them instead of trying to shine a light on the truly vile creatures lurking in our community, that is not worth my time.

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  • [+] [S] 1 point 1 year ago (8 children)
  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago* (7 children)

    the shamer who gets to feel morally superior

    Why do you think the rejection of a supremacist is inherently a supremacist act? I don't feel superior to them, I feel deep all consuming sadness that society can produce a person like that. I feel angry that they're here trying to spread their insanity. And I feel tired, so so tired. But I don't feel superior to them. Justified for my anger? Sure. But that isn't superiority.

    You really like Daryl Davis, as do I: he's done amazing work. But have you engaged with his writings, or what he feels about this issue? He doesn't ascribe to your absolutism - he supports the broad work in combating rhetorical hatred just as I will absolutely support you in a bid to engage directly and de-radicalize those people. It's important you realize that if the existence of a sympathetic ear could be undone by broad cultural opposition, Daryl Davis would never have been able to make a difference.

    I can respect the ideals you claim, but I cannot respect their misapplication not least because the originator of your ideals doesn't. I've made no claims of superiority, even refusing to feed into their obvious self-loathing and encouraging them on being more authentic in the expression of their ideas regardless of their content, but you have claimed I intrinsically have*.

    I have to ask, are you projecting? Do you feel your ideology is superior to mine, here, now? Because if you do, that truly needs examination. And if you don't, you should examine why you're deflecting from face-value criticism of your actions with claims of their own inherent moral superiority.

    ^edit:^ ^clarity^

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  • [+] [S] 1 point 1 year ago* (6 children)
  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (5 children)

    What I'm trying to do is use that characterization of inherent superiority, and the interaction with Lunitique, as a lens through which you can examine your own broad motivations. In that spirit, I'd like to just draw a big circle around a fundamental concept: When you look at the values and context of the ideologies being presented, we don't disagree nor are we inherently in conflict.

    What you're saying, that when engaging with someone who you hope to bring around shaming is a counterprodutive tool, is fine. It's a bit lies-to-children (for the sake of sparing us both a long and tediously boring discussion of what shame truly is in society) but I'll happily say I totally agree, it is absolutely counterproductive to try and directly influence someone's opinion to a position they do not already hold by engaging with them negatively (it works great to reinforce someone's position, though!).

    But that's not what I'm doing. I'm not speaking to them. That's where your projection of your own actions is undermining your understanding of my position. That comment I made, the one that broadcasts the values they actually hold, that's not made with the intent of changing their opinion. It's a completely different strategy, and it's derived from the principal that underpins all societal norms. The reason we don't shit in the street, the reason cultural attitudes change at all, is because of a broad change in perception that those norms aren't acceptable. It's a slow process, and it's a bulk process.

    My goal with a comment like that is not to single out a single person and make them "better", it's to demonstrate in clear terms that there are other viewpoints, that the person posting does not exist in a vacuum where they get to dictate the narrative, that opposition to their ideas exists and that if they want to espouse those ideas, they will have to hold them in the face of the justified negative criticism they deserve. I'm not shitting all over anyone's ideas but Lunitiques, but in shitting on those ideas I'm removing their ability to dictate the context in which they interact. This is where you're misapplying the lessons Davis' teaches; he approaches those people individually, and he values that personal connection in changing their more-vile opinions. That is excellent, but you cannot simply take concepts that complex and apply them in a completely, fundamentally, inseparably different context. This is why he supports broad efforts to change societal opinions via outreach and awareness, not just engaging on a personal level. He chooses that method, but he does not denigrate other approaches as inherently bad.

    Your stance is that communication and empathy are critical to ending hateful thought. I wholly agree. But while they may be among the most important tools we have, they are not the only tools we have.


    I would like to point out something I think you've overlooked:

    What I am doing right now is passionately and without any attempts at shaming you, presenting my own position and my own interpretation of your position. I want you to make up your own mind, and I am fully willing to accept a fundamental disagreement between us may be inevitable.

    What you are doing, and have been doing (and which I fully credit is not intentional), is attempting to shame me for my approach to this situation. You hold that your position can be reasonably characterized as being morally superior, that you derive feelings of superiority from presenting your positions. These are all things which you have criticized, rightly or wrongly, in my approach. Your stated position contradicts the form your position appears to take, and truly my only goal here is to present that to you. To, through reasoned discourse and genuine sympathetic understanding, let you see that defending hatred on the basis of the form it's criticism takes is counterproductive to the ideals you yourself hold.

    edit: bad at typing

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  • [+] [S] 1 point 1 year ago (4 children)
  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)

    most morally correct thing in instances like this. But I feel that is an objective fact

    (I swear I'm not trying to get the last word in and I am glad you have given my ideas a chance! I just want to point out an ontological pet peeve: you can't have an objective fact in a discussion about relative morality. If morality were objective, what would there be left to have conflict about?)

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  • [+] [S] 1 point 1 year ago (2 children)
  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

    IDK, overpopulation is one of the largest factors in every major problem facing the world today. Reducing that population removes pressure from the mechanisms of society that are failing, which could quite reasonably be considered a positive and perhaps even imperative contribution to the group as a whole.

    (Obviously I don't think that, it's a hyperbolic example on all sides, but that's the issue with trying to claim objectivity in morality: there are points within that justification for random death that from a certain perspective could be considered wholly valid)

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago* (2 children)

    Okay, so feel free to start de-radicalizing them. Go ahead, be my guest, I will happily support you doing that just like I have in all the other threads where people attempt that. I'll just patiently wait right here while you get on practicing what you preach.

    Seriously though, if they don't wanna be called a nazi, maybe they shouldn't do stuff like advocate for the implementation of nazi policies. Sure the centrist line about 'labeling everything you don't like a nazi devalues the term' probably has some degree of merit, but that's not whats happening here. They're just a regular old far-right authoritarian whackjob troll and pointing out the festering hatred that even lemmy, with it's much less toxic community compared to reddit or twitter, still has lurking in the userbase is important.

    Besides, there's no way for them to be more radicalized. They're already a transphobic pro-oligarchical eugenicist with a gun fetish that desperately LARPs as a rich white woman by posting stolen shots of prop money and expensive cars. How much worse could they actually be?

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  • [+] [S] 1 point 1 year ago* (1 child)
  • Think they are just a troll:

    (Couldn't link the comment for whatever reason:) "Russia has the strongest military in the world that has technology that can eviscerate all NATO members within 20 minutes.

    Some of their strategic argument doesn't even need nuclear capabilities.

    Not saying they're invulnerable against attack, but they would be able to devastate all of NATO with their attacks."

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago* (3 children)

    Hate guns? Now I know you’re just making shit up. Lemmy is like the most pro-gun website I’ve ever been on.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Hey, you never told me what you thought of your newfound knowledge about solar cycles and mRNA vaccines, your post got deleted for some reason

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