948
Remember when this one was a little edgy instead of quaint? (slrpnk.net)
submitted 1 year ago by to c/politicalmemes@lemmy.world
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[–] 47 points 1 year ago (48 children)

The Israelis have tarnished the reputation for Jewish people all over. I know that many (most?) of them are against it, but I know very sensible people who think twice before engaging with a Jewish person when it comes to politics, just to avoid being framed as an anti-semite. All this holier-than-thou victim blaming is actually responsible for many becoming anti-semites.

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  • [–] 18 points 1 year ago

    being framed as an anti-semite

    It's funny, my parents watch the PBS News Hour religiously. One night last year they ran a piece about how Israel was trying (and succeeding) to frame all criticism of Israel's actions as "anti-semitism". My parents were of course all "oh that's terrible what Israel is doing!" The very next night they ran a piece about how anti-semitism in the US was on the rise. My parents were of course all "oh that's terrible that anti-semitism is on the rise!" without making any connection at all between the two stories.

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  • [–] 35 points 1 year ago (45 children)

    Pretty sure Jews outside of Israel are against what the Israeli state is doing to Palestine. But for Israeli Jews, unfortunately, last time I saw the survey, most of them approve of kicking the Palestinians out of Gaza and West Bank. They may not like Netanyahu and most know that he is prolonging the war to artificially extend the lifeline of his regime, but most approve of the overall right wing policies of Likud towards Palestinians.

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  • [–] 11 points 1 year ago*

    Older Jews in my experience are zionist no matter their leanings.

    I've heard people trash trump in one breath and go on to say "wipe them out" in the next.

    Not to say all. Never. But the disconnect is there. Especially when they have family in Israel.

    Have seen the moral fight in their mind as they watch the news. Most I saw someone admit was that they "were so tired of all the killing" and maybe a "netanyahoo" here or there.

    But Israel is Israel.

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  • [+] -20 points 1 year ago (43 children)

    And unfortunately most Palestinians are supportive of attacks on Israel. They're a whole lot of stubborn evil over there all around.

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  • [–] 25 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    Living your entire life under apartheid will do that to a person

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  • [+] -13 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    As would living under rocket fire and being surrounded by countries that call for your destruction. Pretty shitty for all. So what's the solution? Some might argue Israel was being relatively progressive and slowing giving more freedoms to Gaza up to the October attacks. They might argue that such freedoms actually allowed those attacks to be so 'successful'. Some might argue that the only path forward to peace is the complete destruction of one side's military capabilities.

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  • [–] 18 points 1 year ago (14 children)

    As opposed to what? Sitting back and quietly folding their hands in their laps while their children are mowed down by machine guns and blasted into dust by air strikes?

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  • [+] -14 points 1 year ago (13 children)

    They could surrender unconditionally. Like France did under Blitzkrieg. It doesn't mean giving up forever, but it stops the worst of the killing for now.

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  • [–] 11 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (11 children)

    Its been over 80 years. Its not occupation, its colonization.

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  • [+] -8 points 1 year ago (10 children)

    Yes, that's valid. Just like Europeans colonizing the americas. Should native Americans be firing rockets as US civilians? What do you think would happen if they did?

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  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago (9 children)

    If US citizens were to this very day continually encroaching on the small amount of sovereign land they have left? Being complete open with their stance that they intend to colonize every inch of their homeland and oust them from the area entirely? Mobbing and killing native Americans, all backed by the full force of the national military?

    Yes. They ought to retailiate.

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  • [+] -7 points 1 year ago (8 children)

    Isn't that exactly what Americans did do to their native population? How long has to pass after before it's ok?

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago (7 children)

    It's also what Hitler did. Guess what moron, genocide isnt okay no matter who does it. What was done to the natives was completely vile.

    You have been brain washed into thinking what is being done is actually defendable. You are basically this generations Hitlers youth.

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  • [–] -2 points 1 year ago (6 children)

    When something was done multiple generations ago like the creation of Israel, I think it's a done deal. Just like the take over of the americas by Europeans, or various wars of conquest in the past. It sucks and is horrible. But one has to move forward. I'm not condoning Israel's current actions, but I think they now have a right to continued existence and to defend themselves (but with reasonable safeguards for civilians, unlike what they're doing now). So to recap: what Israel is doing now is unacceptable. They've also done unacceptable stuff in the past. They've also had to defend themselves from unacceptable stuff done to them in the past. They are a stubborn bunch that are insanely over doing their revenge now - just like their many enemies would do to them if they could. It sucks.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    Genocide isnt self defense. We know all the Israeli talking point and soft linguistic manipulations that come with it by now.

    You are condoning their actions when you come to their defense. Stop defending genocide. Half your comments are you trying to make light of it.

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  • [–] -3 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    No I'm literally and specifically not condoning Israeli actions. I'm not clear on what the current vernacular meaning of 'genocide' is right now here, but apparently what Israel is doing has to be called genocide by definition or else my comment gets deleted. So it's certainly genocide. But I don't think they are trying to kill or remove all Palestinians from Gaza despite what some politicians say. When I say Israel has a right to defence, I mean they have to be able to try and stop rocket attacks or border incursions by Hamas or anyone else. Ideally they'd find some peaceful solution, but Hamas (and other groups) have made it clear that they will never allow peace as long as Israel exists. So what's Israel to do? Clearly killing civilians isn't the right answer. But peace processes in the past have also failed and freedoms in Gaza led to the Oct attacks. So what is the path forward?

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    This is either an incredibly naive response or some sort of weird troll comment.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    So you don't know what they should do either. Fair. And that's the point, they have no good options. I think we can agree that what they're doing now isn't a good path. But unless there is a tangible solution for long term peace available, I don't see how they will be convinced to change their strategy.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

    Truth, reconciliation, and reparations to those they've oppressed for generations would be a start. This just reads like, "It's complicated" with more words, which is the most common cop out people say about Israel. They're the same people who will pretend they were always against it once Israel finalizes their extermination campaign.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    Yes that would be good. But in places where such truth and reconciliation efforts have happened (s Africa, Canada), there has always been a reasonable amount of stability first. It won't happen while there's fighting. It won't happen with the current Israeli government anyway, of course; but hopefully that will change at some point.

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  • [–] 14 points 1 year ago (6 children)

    Oh no they support fighting back against the people who have fired rockets at them for decades and who send “settlers” to kill them and steal their land and whose soldiers keep shooting at children going to school and-

    You’re an unserious person with a terrible take. I hope if anything bad happens to you that you submit immediately and no one comes to help you.

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  • [+] -11 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    Yes, Israel has continued to steal West Bank land, and if not target civilians, then at least wantonly disregard civilian collateral damage. And it's evil. But let's not forget the full scale attacks on Isreal, the suicide bombings, the border attacks, the October attack and the continuous rocket fire at Isreal lately. Both sides have kept this going; it's just that Israel has the capability now to do more damage and is apparently no longer worried about it's international reputation.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (3 children)

    Oh shut up. The Palestinians aren’t doing attacks for fun and they don’t have the backing for some kind of proper warfare with the Israelis to get them off their land. It’s not a mattee of opinion; they were their first and people from other countries without the right to do so told the people who would become the Israelis of today that it was totally cool for them to show up there. There was literally video of some guy from the fucking Bronx taking part in stealing a Palestinian family’s home, it’s fucking crazy what’s happening there.

    It’d be like if I sent a bunch of people with guns to your house because I promised someone else you don’t even know that they could have it. And then, if you did anything in protest I beat the shit out you and shot your dog.

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  • [–] -4 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Yes, it's like that and it's horrible. It's like Europeans taking over North America. It's like countless other wars of conquest. In the end, Israel isn't going anywhere; surely you know that? We can try to pressure them to take care of the (most recent) indigenous population, but if you say they can't protect themselves or secure their population's safety, they will necessarily ignore you. Pick your battles.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Their safety? Literally it’s just rocket after rocket after rocket from them. They’re complaining about safety while they commit countless acts of genocide against the people that were already there. They’re literally and openly trying to exterminate every single Palestinian in Gaza and they’re doing it with terrifying ease and no substantial pushback.

    Good fucking god, I hope that every single time someone hurts you you just let it happen, and even defend their right to do it. I hope you never stand up for yourself, and no one else ever stands up for you. I hope you are pummelled into submission while everyone watches and does nothing to help you except for occasionally throwing a bandaid at you, and maybe even a few say that you were asking for it when you get your own blood on your attacker’s clothes even though that happened after they hit you(and is stupid). And I hope, at the end of all that, you get a fucking clue. God, you are a piece of shit.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago

    Yes, their safety.
    Hamas, and other groups were (and still are to a lesser extent) firing rockets at Israel. Israel has a right to not want to live under that danger. Before the Oct attacks, they were actually slowly increasing freedoms and self control in Gaza. Sure, now they've gone nutto in revenge, or blind destruction of any and all militant capacity in Gaza with zero care about civilians. I don't support that! But you still need to look at the perspective of all sides - Israel doesn't want to be in danger from rocket attacks any more. They believe it's been shown that any peace process doesn't work. So they're going the other way since Hamas refuses to surrender. As well as being unconscionable, I don't think it will lead to long term peace. I condemn Israel's current policies. But I also condemn Hamas and the like that keep this going and attempting to kill Israelis - whether or not you think their vengeance is justified, it only leads to more deaths - and solidifies Israel's path of destruction.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    I'm all for targeting military personnel but not civilians.

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  • [+] -7 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    But if all they have is poorly guided rockets, they are risking civilians. And that only encourages Israel to continue to also kill civilians as it technically targets militants or their resources.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

    I mean taking pot shots at targeted killing of soldiers themselves. I'm okay with that, they are legitimate targets after all. Many freedom fighters consciously avoid civilian deaths. Although in the case of Hamas, they don't care. Being under oppression is not an excuse. I can't belabor the point further, many freedom fighters before consciously avoid civilian deaths. It is not like there was no precedence for Hamas not to follow.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago

    To be fair if people had been coming into my country and blowing shit up and murdering people then settling on the land for the last 50 years both myself AND my parents would have known pretty much nothing else and I'd be pretty likely to view them with nothing but rather coherant hatred.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (11 children)

    I'm supportive of attacks on Israel too. They've got nukes, we need to disable those.

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  • [+] -10 points 1 year ago (10 children)

    And so Isreal has the right to respond to attacks. It's pretty horrible how they're doing it and I sure wish they'd take the moral high road instead of going to the gutter like they are. Of course, their adversaries would do worse if they could. Doesn't excuse it in my books, but I can see where they're coming from.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago* (6 children)

    If a teenager cuts in front of me in line at the movies, that doesn't mean I have the right to burn down the entire movie theatre with a molotov cocktail.

    No matter how fun it would be

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  • [+] -7 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    What if it's your neighbour firing random gun shots at your house for months or years, putting you and your family at risk of great injury or death? You have a rocket launcher - do you use it to eradicate your neighbour and keep your family safe? Or is that unjustified escalation and you'd just take random pot shots back?

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    Well if the entire state of Israel were me, then Hamas would be a 14 year old who listens to Kanye. Edgy and annoying, but not dangerous. There's no way Hamas can actually destroy Israel.

    Also Israel told the troops at the border to stand down and let October 7th happen.

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  • [–] -1 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    Doesn't work like that. If people were taking pot shots at your family, you wouldn't stand for it even if your whole country wasn't at risk.
    And you assertion that Isreal let the Oct attacks happen on purpose is unlikely to be true at best, and more like ridiculous conspiracy conjecture.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (2 children)
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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Yes that's interesting. So who gave the order - there must be some kind of record. Or was is a mole, or Hamas making a fake call? Or were the soldiers making up an excuse as they had been lazy? Surely such an accusation should be followed up on as much as possible, but all we get is that one little bit of 'testimony' in a clearly biased article that blurs named sources with unsubstantiated 'reports'.
    It might be true for all I know, but it seems very unlikely. If true, it's very important to know where such an order came from. The people of Israel aren't stupid - they wouldn't stand for an intentional lapse in security. So what's the real story? - why would such a huge accusation be a minor footnote?

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago* (1 child)

    You speak as though there are two people groups on equal footing doing atrocities here. As if both sides have done the same level of destruction and murder.. That's the crazy part in my opinion.

    It would be as if a 6 year old went and punched a bodybuilder, and the bodybuilder went on to curb stomp and break multiple bones in the child's body, and then people defended his retaliation.

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  • [–] -5 points 1 year ago

    No. Israel is clearly doing a lot more atrocities now. But taken in the context of the last 80+ years, it's no 6yo punching a body builder situation. Israel has seemingly had the military advantage since its inception, but it has not been immune to great harm. The Oct attacks proved that it was still very vulnerable against an enemy who will always seek Israel's destruction. Israel's strategy now is abhorrent but there is context that makes it militarily logical, even if morally bankrupt.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    I have the same opinion of Israeli Jews as I have of Japanese people: you don't judge the individual who may have various views, you judge the voting block as a whole.

    Same way I hold Japan responsible for pretending they didn't do war crimes, I also hold the Israeli people collectively responsible for the actions for their government.

    They keep voting for it

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