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[–] 4 points 5 months ago

This doesn't look like it could possibly be that effective. Some pickings from the paper as I read through it:

Instead, to bypass the page cache for long-running measurements, we create a file larger than system memory.

Creating a file larger than system memory seems pretty non-trivial. I have 64G of memory and btop says 32.9G of that is currently used for cache. I would expect (but don't know if) there's some maximum filesize limit browsers impose on OPFS that really ought to be smaller than this.

On Chrome and Safari, OPFS supports very large files, up to 60 % of disk space, which is more than sufficient to avoid the page cache on most typical systems, as even a small disk size of 64 GB would allow us to create a 38.4 GB OPFS file. Thus, we can fill up the entire system memory on almost all systems, except specialized systems with very little storage and a large amount of system memory. On Firefox, the OPFS supports up to 10 % of total disk space or 10 GB (whichever is less) [45] per origin (i.e., website).

Oh okay, it's explained in the paper. Allowing any random website to use up to 60% of your disk space seems like it'd have issues other than a side-channel attack.

For our Linux measurements, we use a desktop PC with an AMD Ryzen 7 5800X3D CPU, 32 GB of DDR4 RAM and a 256 GB SanDisk SD8SN8U SSD running NixOS 26.05 with kernel version 6.18.5. On this machine, we perform latency measurements using Google Chrome 143.0.7499.192.

For our macOS measurements, we use a Mac mini with an Apple M2 CPU, 8 GB of RAM, and a 256 GB SSD, running macOS Sonoma 14.2.1, and running the attack in Google Chrome (version 144.0.7559.133).

They only perform the actual proof of concept on the Mac mini here, which as you can see only has 8 GB of RAM. Somewhat minor nit, but I remain unconvinced this is really practical on a workstation with 32G or 64G RAM. The Firefox 10 GB filesize limit is particularly tough for this attack, and their suggestion for overcoming it is purely theoretical (multiple sites running in parallel to have multiple separate OPFS storages).

For our FROST website-fingerprinting attack, we first generate training data for our CNN model. We collect traces while visiting the top 50 websites from the Alexa Top Million list [4], generating 100 traces per website, resulting in a labeled dataset of 5 000 traces. Additionally, we collect 1 trace each for the next 300 websites in the list as an open-world set. Our attack setup is symmetric, i.e., the attacker and victim can use the same or different browsers, as the attack works on the storage level, independent of the browser.

So if I'm reading this right, they use samples from the target machine to generate training data for the neural network that performs the side-channel detection. They seemingly claim this would work across browsers and definitely imply that it would work across different machines, but that seems like a huge, unproven assumption to make.

So basically the actual vulnerability here is, if you first let the attacker collect labeled data on your specific machine and then train a neural network on it, they can then later fingerprint your activity with some accuracy? Whoop de doo.

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  • [–] 4 points 5 months ago (1 child)

    At what point do we admit that JavaScript was just a bad idea all round and drop it?

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  • [+] 2 points 5 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (2 children)
  • [–] [S] 3 points 5 months ago (1 child)

    oh not directly, but the code on the page can do a timing attack to see how long it takes to read and write a large file which can be used to fingerprint your ssd

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago (1 child)

    Can they actually force a write of a large file to test it or do they look at your specs? If they can actually force a large file writing whether it's 100 mb or 50 gb, 1tb this isn't even really a privacy issue it's just a, tech companies can just step all over you and your ardwae st to make sure your human or to make sure they can track your preferences.

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  • 35 comments in c/privacy@lemmy.world view that post
    [–] 25 points 5 months ago

    Interesting stuff.

    I assume this also needs high precision timers, which are disabled in many cases. I'm also assuming that the reason the file needs to be quite so large is to ensure that caching doesn't ruin the measurements.

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  • [–] 13 points 5 months ago (8 children)

    I have JavaScript disabled as a default

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  • [–] 3 points 5 months ago (7 children)

    Just in case the idea might help someone:

    Can run the browser on a remote machine.

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago (6 children)

    I ain't that rich , or got enough speeds even locally for that

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago (5 children)

    Not enough local speed?

    Did you make an acoustic data network using strings and cups?

    ... actually that sounds kinda awesome

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago (4 children)

    I use a 10$ D-Link router , I don't use ethernet , just WIFI because I move my laptop alot the wifi speed is maximum 2.2MB/s , with other devices on the router it drops so won't get a good UI/Video stream to use ! the router comes with a modem that is configured to work with Syrian networking equipment ADSL to it connects to my land phone line , my download speed is barely 150KB/s !

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago (3 children)

    I bet you are amazing with technology.

    The most computer savvy people I've known developed their skills as a necessity to make their 500 mHz potato keep up with their friends for chat and gaming.

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago (2 children)

    maybe , I did use to game with friends on a Core i3 first Gen Ironlake CPU but all my will went down hill as I am unemployed and no one wants to hire me

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  • [–] 0 points 5 months ago (1 child)

    I've bookmarked the comment before it disappears too far into my history.

    One day, when my software company that doesn't exist yet takes off, you'll be my first hire.

    (Don't hold your breath. It's a decades old dream.)

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago

    Joke’s on them. I still rock a 5600 RPM rust bucket.

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  • [+] -37 points 5 months ago (23 children)

    “Companies like Google, Microsoft, and Adobe have developed full-fledged office suites, photo- and video editors, or even integrated development environments (IDEs) that run entirely within the browser.”

    Yup. Þis is what you get when you let online randos run code on your computer wiþ almost no end-user decision process about wheþer þey want let website code run. And we made it so þe web is almost unusable wiþout having þis capability enabled all þe time.

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  • [–] 23 points 5 months ago (14 children)

    Your comment is unreadble. Use the the right letters for your words.

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  • [–] 14 points 5 months ago (11 children)

    They're using the "thorn" letter from Old English. A silly affectation but just substitute "th" for the symbol they used.

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  • [–] 19 points 5 months ago

    Even more annoyingly, they're using it wrong. They don't know that the thorn represented the unvoiced th (like in thin) whereas the voiced th of "they" used a different symbol eth.

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  • [–] 5 points 5 months ago (6 children)

    Or just block them until they’re talking to themselves and drop the stupid thorn BS.

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  • [–] -4 points 5 months ago (5 children)

    Þat's a you problem. Þey aren't hurting anything

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  • [–] 5 points 5 months ago (4 children)

    Except the users who need to use screen readers and other accessibility features.

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  • [–] -4 points 5 months ago (3 children)

    Be real, þat's not why þey're mad. Þey just hate anyone being different

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  • [–] 3 points 5 months ago (2 children)

    Being an asshole isn’t being different.

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  • [–] 10 points 5 months ago (4 children)

    yeah blocked for being annoying

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  • [–] 5 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

    “Companies like Google, Microsoft, and Adobe have developed full-fledged office suites, photo- and video editors, or even integrated development environments (IDEs) that run entirely within the browser.”

    Yup. This is what you get when you let online randos run code on your computer with almost no end-user decision process about whether they want to let website code run. And we made it so the web is almost unusable without having this capability enabled all the time.

    Fixed that for you

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  • [–] 0 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

    My eyes aren't so great, especially late at night when tired, so I didn't even notice there were odd characters until I saw all the whinging.

    "Oh my god! Don't you know being different separates you from the tribe? Look everyone! I'm rejecting it! See how normal and deserving of inclusion I am?"

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  • 33 comments in c/privacy@lemmy.dbzer0.com view that post
    [–] 33 points 5 months ago (2 children)

    JavaScript, that once promised to be so useful, has become the tool of choice for the wonderful surveillance dystopia we live in...

    A year ago, I tried for a few months to use the Web without any JavaScript running. If it was fine on a few selected (and, unsurprisingly, privacy respecting websites) it was... close to impossible everywhere else, including state/government/public services websites. That's the first thing I would want to change if we were to take back some control/privacy: official/public services should not rely on privacy invasive tools.

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago

    For general use, it's almost impossible, but I found it very doable to have a browser without js in the phone, for reading stuff. Turns out most news and informational sites are readable without js.

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  • [–] 29 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (8 children)

    canvasblocker ublockorigin privacybadger

    about:config ->

    -> javascript.options.shared_memory = FALSE

    -> privacy.firstparty.isolate = TRUE

    -> privacy.partition.network_state = TRUE

    -> privacy.partition.network_state.oscp_cache= TRUE

    -> privacy.partition.network_state.oscp_cache.pbmode = TRUE

    -> privacy.partition.serviceWorkers = TRUE

    -> privacy.reduceTimerPrecision = TRUE

    -> privacy.resistFingerprinting.reduceTimerPrecision.jitter = TRUE

    -> privacy.resistFingerprinting.reduceTimerPrecision.microseconds = 1000 ... or... more?

    ... might do something to stymie this?

    From the paper:

    We assume default configurations for the operating system and browser.

    Well I have no idea what the 'default configuration' of ... Linux ... is...

    But uh, theoretically this is something you could harden against by going balls to the wall with security preferences and options in firefox, waterfox, librewolf, ironfox, something like that... maybe?

    Also, its maybe possible that using a seperate container for each seperate tab could also stymie this.

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  • [–] 11 points 5 months ago (1 child)

    OPFS

    oh you firefox

    Seems like a feature vendors need reconsider unimplementing/threat remodeling.

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  • [–] 5 points 5 months ago

    Yeah I apparently missed all this but yeah, there seems to have been a significant hubub of basically... wait why do we even need this at all?

    To satisfy lazy corporate web devs who can't be bothered to use existing APIs properly?

    That's basically my take after after a light review of reading several threads in various places around this, over the last few years.

    ⭕ 1
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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago (2 children)

    Interesting ideas in here, particularly the timer precision

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  • [–] 6 points 5 months ago* (1 child)

    Waterfox seems to already have a default of 1000 microseconds, if... I think, you go with 'strict' privacy settings option?

    So on the one hand, a very brief perusal of the paper shows that the method needs like, sub 200 timings to work well.

    On the other hand... I have no idea if the exploit method effectively circumvents the way this timing speed limit actually works.

    I basically just sped read everything lol.

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago (2 children)

    Mullvad browser maybe better for this than librewolf?

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago (1 child)

    Potentially?

    Maybe?

    I would not call myself an expert here, I don't... dev webbrowsers, more like I'm a privacy minded power user.

    I'm literally just spitballing, I can guarantee nothing.

    Maybe if I did a full crash course over like a month or two, I could have what I would call a 'semi-informed' opinion.

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  • [–] 24 points 5 months ago (2 children)

    I give up. I'm throwing my computers away. Goodbye everyone

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  • [–] 13 points 5 months ago

    Joke's on them. I have an HDD.

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  • [–] 7 points 5 months ago

    Today in "why the fuck is that an API?"

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  • [–] 11 points 5 months ago (11 children)

    Well now I don't seem so crazy for having a minimum of 100 tabs open at any one time.

    Surely past a certain point it just becomes white noise

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  • [–] 25 points 5 months ago (10 children)

    The bad news is that the article says

    One of the best ways to prevent FROST attacks is to close tabs as soon as they’re no longer needed

    Leaving the tabs open just gives them more opportunities to track you.

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  • [–] 4 points 5 months ago (9 children)

    or, no tabs at all. Let the window manager tab browser sessions instead. Isolated/jailed, ofc..

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  • [–] 3 points 5 months ago* (8 children)

    Nah, that's not gonna do anything for this given it is looking at the I/O characteristics of your SSD, it doesn't need any permissions to do this, it's basically just copying stuff in its own sandbox and pulling data from analysing the transfer characteristics.

    Unless for every site you want to visit you install a fresh SSD, with a new installation of a browser and you only ever visit a given site from its dedicated browser and SSD, and do nothing else with it. (This is not limited to figuring out just what sites you're visiting, but also what applications you're ruining)

    The alternative is something similar to what I suggested which is to basically ensure your SSD is spammed with accesses so it's very hard to pull out the individual signals.

    It's similar to a VPN connection. If someone is particularly interested in you, they can look at the pattern of VPN transfer traffic. If you open a connection and then go straight to a website and nothing else, it's relatively trivial for a determined enough adversary to take a fingerprint of the transfer sizes and timings. Enough times they can get a good set of fingerprints that they can then start to match to actual sites.

    Now this was regarded as quite hard to do until AI tools like this one come along to dramatically reduce the time needed to do this analysis.

    A way to mitigate the above is to make sure your connections are doing multiple things so it's harder to pull these fingerprints from traffic patterns. So I'm assuming the same strategy would work here given it's basically the same kind of attack

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago (7 children)
  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago* (6 children)

    Sorry could you elaborate? You just linked to the MDN page in the comment and claimed it was bad in that one. Did you mean to link to a different one?

    It's implemented everywhere, so it's not that it's a single browser doing something weird, it seems to be sandboxed (in a conventional sense), and there's plenty of use cases where an application might need high performance storage access or a pseudo filesystem.

    What is your reasoning for unimplementing it rather than mitigating the issue? I don't believe there is an equivalent web technology to this that people could use instead.

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago (5 children)

    As demonstrated in the paper, OPFS enables attackers to read more than just browsing habits, but also solid state gates’ data.
    Meaning, if vendors require HPSA, they will need to redesign their entire threat model to an isolated securely atomized one that OPFS by design cannot secure.

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago (4 children)

    I get that the paper has discovered a flaw, but I don't see how it is unmitigatable, it's still a sandboxed filesystem at the end of the day, rate smoothing and noise insertion seem like fairly obvious first steps and I'm far from an expert.

    It's like saying we should get rid of VPNs because they suffer the same kinds of side channel risk.

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago* (3 children)

    I mentioned threat remodeling for several reasons. One of them is, as designed OPFS fails every single one of your suggestions, and more.

    So, an entire HPSA model needs to be redesigned, or stick to non HPSA whatsoever until further peer reviewed refuzzing has been made.

    This type vectorization isn't novel, it's just hilarious vendors just accepted it without further security considerations.

    we should get rid of VPNs because they suffer the same kinds of side channel risk.

    🤝🤣

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (2 children)

    🤝🤣

    Why did you chop off the start of the sentence to make it look like I was saying the thing you were?

    I was pointing out it's a ridiculous thing to suggest

    I mentioned threat remodeling for several reasons. One of them is, as designed OPFS fails every single one of your suggestions, and more.

    So, an entire HPSA model needs to be redesigned, or stick to non HPSA whatsoever until further peer reviewed refuzzing has been made.

    This type vectorization isn't novel, it's just hilarious vendors just accepted it without further security considerations.

    Right, yes it definitely needs fixing, that's what I'm saying. Then you veer off into saying we should build it from scratch again? Why? There's no apparent need for that given what you've said, you're just describing what we do to fix the existing standard?

    It's the web, vendors don't break existing APIs unless there's no other option and from what you've written so far, the problem is in the implementation, not the API.

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago* (1 child)

    bruv, have you ever designed a fighter jet from a raft?

    Because that is the equivalence of comparing OPFS is to a secured PostgreSQL query.

    You cannot attain security from a raft, when fighter jets only need to drop bomps like a carpet to write on cities, and traverse microseconds of distances compared to whatever the wind is.

    OPFS is insecure by design.

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago*

    A postgres query is not a filesystem and also not intended at all for large binary blob storage and arbitrary range access? That's an entirely different tool for completely different use cases.

    The existing filesystem API (that the OPFS API appears to build on) is entirely reasonable for its intended use case, and is actually even more entrenched than OPFS given it exists for non-sandboxed uses, and has done for quite a long time. Remember, browser vendors will not break web APIs unless there's no other option, for good reason.

    I also feel like you keep shooting past the fact this is a side channel attack. It's fairly reasonable to conclude any storage operation that hits the SSD could be used for this kind of thing. So basically any equivalent approach would require the same mitigations.

    You've still not made any valid case for your claim that it's insecure by design.

    Just so we can draw this to a close: please explain, specifically and succinctly, which fixes you would make and why specifically the existing OPFS is fundamentally incompatible with your suggestions.

    So far there has been nothing like that in this thread, just hand waving and it's insecure by design, just trust me bro

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  • [–] 5 points 5 months ago (1 child)
  • [–] 5 points 5 months ago

    That doesn’t seem right, there are so many variables that go into io scheduling… this wouldn’t work in many use cases

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago

    Great, just what we needed

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  • 8 comments in c/privacy@lemmy.ml view that post
    [–] 24 points 5 months ago (2 children)

    Any non-dummies out there willing to dummy this down for me?

    If I'm picking up what was being put down, websites typically reserve a small amount of space on a hard drive for any given website to install scripts they need to function. This is done as a matter of course, and is largely the modern Internet working as intended (for better or worse). However, in this case, a compromised website could instruct my browser to reserve a gig or more of space to deploy or install this FROST script. This reports back to the attacker what programs are competing for resources on my computer, including my individual browser tabs and what sites those tabs contain. It can do this despite the location where browsers let websites install/run scripts being nominally sandboxed away from the rest of the drive. It does this by measuring the latency of certain I/O operations occurring on the drive, and feeding that information through some sort of neural network.

    Assuming that is generally correct from a layman's POV, how exactly is that latency information sufficient to determine what programs or websites I have open? Wouldn't different models of SSD (or even different SSDs of the same type) have minor variations in performance which would make this impossible? Hell, how does the script even know that it is installed on an SSD and not an HDD?

    Not saying it untrue, because obviously the folks that discovered this know a touch more about computers than me, but, if this explanation were trotted out in a thriller movie ("well, President Ryan, we know the location of the terrorists' hideout because we were able to measure the latency of their hard drive, which revealed they were placing an Amazon order in the other tab"), I'd chalk it up to techno-babble nonsense.

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  • [–] 4 points 5 months ago (1 child)

    not only that, but I remember Firefox (maybe chrome too) announcing a few years ago they have made scripted timers less accurate. I think that was a mitigation against websites attempting a spectre/meltdown attack. how is it that this new attack is not affected by the inaccurate timers?

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago

    IDK either. Just guessing here. I'm seeing claims that FF timer precision limiter only happens if you have privacy.resistFingerprinting enabled. Which I try to. But it breaks a shitton of anti-bot access gates and makes them them think I'm a bot, since I'm harder to fingerprint. So I guess many ppl leave resistFingerprinting disabled. Which might let this technique work in full force.

    But it sounds like it has to allocate a very large amt of storage. Like 1GB. And then constantly read from that, to make the fingerprint. That's something many ppl would notice. The authors do say there are no known examples of this in the wild. So there's that.

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  • [–] 23 points 5 months ago (3 children)

    You wonder, where does it end?

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  • [–] 14 points 5 months ago

    Yay for not using ECMAScript or WebDRM in my browser. And using spinning HDDs.

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  • 3 comments in c/privacy@sopuli.xyz view that post
    [–] 25 points 5 months ago* (1 child)

    One of the best ways to prevent FROST attacks is to close tabs as soon as they’re no longer needed.

    But those are my emotional support tabs.

    Guess I'm going to dive deeper into self hosting linkwarden

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  • [–] 6 points 5 months ago*

    It seems like some key piece of information is missing here and I suspect that’s why they didn’t demonstrate the full exploit. With all the billions of apps and websites capable of being run in all their infinite combinations how does the pretrained system make the determination of what is being run with any accuracy, especially without knowing far more about the specific performance of the hardware it’s being run on? Given that this works best on people who leave things running it sounds like you would need to reprofile the performance every time a large program is closed. It seems to me that this would work to let you know that some small set of popular programs and sites were likely being run but not with any real confidence.

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  • 3 comments in c/cybersecurity@infosec.pub view that post
    [–] 2 points 5 months ago (1 child)

    this is complete bullshit and relies on a well trained AI, but users, websites and browser setups are too different for it to reliably work in the wild.

    this is the whole fingerprinting overreaction all over again.

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago

    yup, aint no way anyone's training data on latency of every website and app ever. nor would that be possible bc of just so so many possible variations in the stack of execuation. this attack, if feasible for anything, would only work if the user's stack is well known already. even then there's way better ways to attack

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago*

    By measuring the manifestations, attackers can decrypt encrypted traffic

    How ?

    Even the research paper doesn't appear to mention this (unless I missed something)

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  • 2 comments in c/privacy@programming.dev view that post
    1 comment in c/pulse_of_truth@infosec.pub view that post
    1 comment in c/news@lemmy.linuxuserspace.show view that post