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[–] 136 points 6 months ago (4 children)

Morpheus explains it to Neo in the movie

You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inured, so hopelessly dependent on the system, that they will fight to protect it.

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  • [–] 46 points 6 months ago* (2 children)

    I think there are mainly two reasons for this:

    1. In fiction, you’re simply not personally affected, so you don’t have to face any adversity or negative consequences. It costs nothing to see yourself as part of the revolutionary movement, and you don’t put yourself in danger.

    2. Apparently, many people simply don’t want to admit what monsters their leaders really are, even though it’s actually obvious. This is the result of decades of propaganda, I think: The U.S., for example, has always seen itself as the friendly superpower that brings freedom and democracy to the world. Now that it is obvious even to the biggest idiot that this has always been a lie - since the regime has abandoned the facade - people are looking for other explanations to maintain the worldview they have long held to be true - such as the excuse that the current U.S. president is being controlled by evil forces from other countries (Russia/Israel) and therefore does not represent his own, indeed so righteous, country at all.

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  • [–] 28 points 6 months ago (1 child)

    Listen as cypher groans about life in the resistance. Constant fear and anxiety from the bots, shitty food bricks etc. We all like to pretend we are tough as nails and can take any hardships, that attitude changes quickly, especially when you can see and even manipulate the alternative life in the matrix.

    I think there was a point where cypher wanted to fight and be a genuine part of the resistance, the stress eventually got to him. How many "chosen ones" before neo did he see come and die? Eventually it seems hopeless and he could probably game the matrix just right to have a good, albeit artifical, life for himself. It would be like having an option to go back in time and buy amazon/apple/nividia stocks at just the right moment.

    Resistance is often painted as easier than it is. It sugar coats the losses. It makes losing 25 people to kill 5 agressors a "victory". The actors stay fit and strong even if their characters are getting 1 meal a day.

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  • [–] 5 points 6 months ago

    Seriously, thank you. Those who are puzzled why everyday middle class Americans aren’t rushing to join an anarchist revolution ought to look at how the resistance is has been going in Iran this year, even before the US attacked.

    Middle class Americans may struggle to afford the things they had a few decades ago, but they’re still a long way from willing to risk sniper fire in the day and bombings at night.

    A good friend of mine is Palestinian and he spent time in Syria during the war. He told me what it was like to have bombs going off near his house. To have pieces of shrapnel fly past his face and embed themselves into the wall. He lives here in Canada now. He wants nothing to do with fighting in wars. He just wants to make a life for himself and his family.

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  • [–] 30 points 6 months ago (7 children)

    Real life is not like fiction. If you fuck up in irl you end up dead or in prison

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  • [–] 12 points 6 months ago (2 children)

    Everyone wants to talk a big game. But, most people don't want that fight.

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  • [–] 12 points 6 months ago (1 child)

    There's a selection bias in effect, on several fronts.

    • People who want a fight may not actually know who they are fighting or why. Consequently, you get a bunch of idiots and assholes piling into ICE or enlisting in the US military, because they've been pickled on reactionary propaganda and convinced this will liberate them from the Liberal Fascism that Jonah Goldberg told them they were living under.

    • People who fight and lose aren't around to keep fighting. They end up in prisons or hospitals or broke or dead. You don't see them doing anything to fight actively anymore.

    • Tons of resistance efforts and opposition organizing goes totally unreported. In part this is a form of government/corporate censorship, shaped by the priorities of reactionary national media. In part, there simply isn't anything "newsworthy" to report. Who is going to tune into the "Minutes of the most recent Food Not Bombs" organizing event? Who is going to subscribe to a newspaper dedicated to covering street-corner protests and the sermons of local church groups and the odd Facebook meetup of twelve enthusiastic but aimless wanna-be activists?

    • Opposition is expensive and not terribly profitable. Getting a higher profile requires materials and labor. If you don't have them, we don't see you. By contrast, going with the establishment (or the Loyal Opposition) can be both lucrative and status-raising. Easier to be a Megan McArdle or Dana Milbank writing for the Liberal Moderate Sensible Resistance than an Ashton P. Woods or Kat Abughazaleh, running outsider campaigns entirely on local profiles and raw charisma.

    In the end, its easy to assume opposition organizations and activists don't exist simply because you're not in a position to see them. It's easy to feel like you're part of an organization that's operating as a lonely last hold out, because you're in a dark forest of misinformation and occluded dissent.

    Part of finding like-minded people has to be getting yourself out there to be seen. Going to rallies and mingling with people, going to large public events and keeping your eyes/ears open. Going to fucking Church - I know you're going to say you hate it but I'm sorry, that's where a lot of organizing has always happened in this country and still does. A lot of it just means going out and meeting more people and making more friends.

    Shit is happening you can't see. Shit is happening that you'll never know about. That's the nature of any resistance movement. The French Resistance wasn't doing block walks and Pride Parades in the middle of the German Occupation. The NAACP spent a long time organizing in basements before it became a cohesive national group. We've still got a significant portion of our LGBTQ population that has to "come out of the closet", because it's extremely hazardous to your physical, mental, and financial well-being to be queer before you turn 30.

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  • [–] 10 points 6 months ago

    It’s easy to feel like you’re part of an organization that’s operating as a lonely last hold out, because you’re in a dark forest of misinformation and occluded dissent.

    Very much this. As was said in Andor:

    "Random acts of insurrection are occurring constantly throughout the galaxy. There are whole armies, battalions that have no idea that they’ve already enlisted in the cause.

    Remember that the frontier of the Rebellion is everywhere. And even the smallest act of insurrection pushes our lines forward."

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  • [–] 27 points 6 months ago

    Most people in all of those stories just tried to live their lives. The story follows the few that didn't.

    In real life, even if there is a resistance, the connection between those that could join/assist and the general populace, is blocked by a constant surveillance and enforcement state. When groups start to form, they're arrested because the act of organizing draws attention to them. Think of all the 'terrorist' groups you know. You know about them, because they organized. Which put a target on them. Which is also what ends most resistance groups.

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  • [–] 26 points 6 months ago (3 children)

    These movies are not exactly subtle about which side is the "good guys" and which side is the "bad guys".

    Who do you side with in a much more ambiguous movie like Apocalyspe Now or Sicario?

    Or, if you're like most movie watchers, you watched Zero Dark Thirty and sided with the American commandos. You watched The Hurt Locker and sided with the American bomb disposal experts. You watched Argo and sided with the CIA.

    I'd guess there are a lot more pro-American movies where the typical audience sides with the Americans than there are anti-fascist movies where the audience sides with antifa. In fact, a lot of people who watched Starship Troopers didn't get that it was an anti-fascist movie at all and took it all at face value siding with the humans against the aliens.

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  • [–] 13 points 6 months ago*

    Exactly, people are constantly bombarded with pro-imperialist propaganda from the entire MSM spectrum, and no one is immune to propaganda. The media still don't call the genocide in Palestine a genocide, they wrote fuck all about East Timor compared to the similar violence in Cambodia that was committed by the "bad guys", we're inundated with "BuT aT wHaT coST"-style headlines about the designated enemy state du jour. How is anyone supposed to make heads or tails of any of this without spending a significant amount of time actually educating themselves on what is going on and unlearning the years and years of western propaganda they've had to endure?

    Try forming a decent opinion while watching star wars with every scene interspersed with talking heads explaining to you exactly why the rebels are terrorists and that the empire is just defending itself. Also you don't get to see any scene from the perspective of the rebels. Did you know the jedi put babies in ovens?

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  • [–] 23 points 6 months ago (1 child)

    The main reason is that while there are people who are willing to politically fight for the right thing, there are very few people who are willing to die for the right thing.

    Luigi is one of those and even he has affluence.

    We need 100+ Luigi's before we see the average person willing to risk their life.

    Think about it this way: what would happen right now if Luigi were to die by the state? If he can't usher systematic change, what chance does my life have?

    This isn't just online. While I'm not going to openly talk about what forms of resistance my local group has taken on, very few people are willing to do more than what we've been doing and it's frustrating.

    Trump and the GOP are literally running the fascism playbook and we only have a few more chapters left until he has the ability to fully dismantle democracy.

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  • [–] 2 points 6 months ago*

    If he does dismantle democracy, then you will see people fight. You wouldn't want to end up in jail or dead if the majority support him and will just install a new fascist in his place. You would have wasted your life for nothing. Your group would have more impact if it educated voters instead.

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  • [+] 63 points 6 months ago (36 children)
  • [–] 41 points 6 months ago (4 children)

    Yeah, that's the point. The resistance in movies is always a very professional, single-minded and effective operation with perfect logistics and a common goal. It's easy to imagine being a part of such an "activist power fantasy" where everything is smooth sailing until the world revolution while getting cheered on all the way.

    While IRL activism and organizing is messy and tedious. It's hard to feel like a hero when the political landscape is a confusing mess, there is no clear strategy on what to do next and the group you joined can't agree on when to do the next coffee break.

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  • [–] 23 points 6 months ago (2 children)

    perfect

    Someone hasn't seen Andor nor Rogue One!

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  • [–] 9 points 6 months ago (1 child)

    Or basically ANY movie with a resistance... They're either established by powers that seek change over decades and thetegore have had time to figure things out, or they're woefully under supplied.

    Also real life examples of resistance movements being coordinated in short amounts of time are apparently irrelevant, too.

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  • [–] 5 points 6 months ago*

    Incidentally, one of my favorite WW2 movies is Anthropoid about the Czech resistance... If any of this topic interests any readers at all, don't look up anything about it; go in blind! It's free to library card holders on Kanopy.

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  • [–] 4 points 6 months ago

    The resistance in movies is always a very professional, single-minded and effective operation

    You are highlighting another point: the resistance in these movies is not professional at all but you believe it is because the heroes forcing their way into the enemy headquarters with all odds against them are professional, good looking, trained actors with a full movie studio working beside them.

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  • [–] 4 points 6 months ago (1 child)

    It's the funding. Toothpaste costs money. It's too risky to keep stealing large quantities of toothpaste, but you have to live off the grid for years to do what they do in the movies. You can't even expect to go back to a normal life after you accomplished your task. Could be they brand you a terrorist and you have to live in hiding forever. There are IRL examples for this.

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  • [–] 4 points 6 months ago

    Also keeping in mind that you can't guarantee that what comes after the revolution will be any better. For instance, how many revolutions did the French have until they got to where they are now? How many of those revolutions left the country worse off until the next one?

    There's the saying "things will get worse before they get better"... that "worse" could be generations long.

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  • [–] 4 points 6 months ago (20 children)

    The PSL’s mission is explicitly stated to create a vanguard party to lead a revolution in the US. Obviously they’re a long way off, but don’t say nobody is organizing resistance.

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  • [–] 13 points 6 months ago (7 children)

    Vanguard parties always angle for dictatorships and put anarchists who aren't compliant up against a wall after a successful revolution, history has taught us this time and time again. The PSL are authoritarians and not to be trusted.

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  • [–] 3 points 6 months ago (3 children)

    True. But the anarchists never have the organisational power to win the revolution. So how do we fix that?

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  • [–] 5 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (2 children)

    History has shown Anarchists are very capable of organizational power. The Russian revolution itself likely would not have succeeded without the significant military contributions from the Ukrainian Anarchists, but after the Whites were mostly defeated, the Marxist-Leninists betrayed the Anarchists to consolidate power, depicting them as bandits and counter-revolutionary, executing or imprisoning any who did not successfully flee.

    Anarchists also demonstrated their organizational abilities in Catalonia during the Spanish Civil War (effectively organizing more than 3 million people). Once again, they were betrayed by Marxist-leninists (this time mid-war), which contributed to the defeat of the revolution, among other factors, such as particularly overwhelming logistical support for Franco from Mussolini and Hitler, while the Anarchists had no allies on the world stage.

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  • [–] 5 points 6 months ago (1 child)

    Well, that's the thing, the MLs were able to successfully do this both times, by out-organising the anarchists in the area of being devious backstabbing assholes. Anarchists have to learn how to fight properly on that field, and win. They cannot rely entirely on their superior ability to feed the people and otherwise supply their needs in a crisis.

    I think this is definitely something anarchists could be great at. Their recent success against ICE in Minneapolis is a prime example. However, winning a battle is one thing, winning the war requires a strategic approach, which can be very difficult for anarchist organisation.

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  • [–] 6 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

    I think we differ in how we define organizing. I see it as the ability to effectively organize large groups of people, logistics, supplies, or military responses. I would not consider 'Out backstabbing the backstabbers' as under the label 'organizing', that's more of a tactics thing. I also don't think anarchists should participate in backstabbing at all, as that reduces trust in the whole effort, IMHO, and it doesn't seem likely that a large anarchist collective would agree via consensus to do such a thing.

    Anarchists in 1918 didn't automatically assume their anti-capitalist allies would betray them in that manner, it was up to that point unprecedented in history (though predicted by Mikhail Bakunin). Anarchists the world over supported the Russian revolution until they visited the USSR (such as Emma Goldman) and it became apparent that it was becoming a new state dictatorship. This was a learning event that showed MLs cannot be trusted despite their appeals of leftist unity.

    The Anarchists were fully aware of this betrayal by 1936 in Catalonia, but the circumstances were dire enough to begrudgingly ally with them once more, as the USSR was the only country in the world with the already existing productive capacity and willingness to supply the revolution with needed logistics and heavier weaponry such as tanks and artillery.

    It was no fault of Anarchist organizing that those logistics were needed, it was just circumstance that Catalonia did not have any tank manufacturing set up before-hand (something that can take years to do), and that their enemy was stronger than it normally would've been at that point in time.

    There is nothing they realistically could've done to 'out organize' the MLs, as organization was not the issue. The issue is that the MLs were an enemy, but they were the enemy of another enemy (the fascists), and the lack of logistical help from the outside world left them with the options of trying to fight both enemies at once, or hope that they can first defeat the fascists before needing to defend against the inevitable ML betrayal. The fact that the MLs ultimately chose to betray mid-fight with the fascists was likely pretty unexpected, since it didn't really make sense for them to do so in that moment in time (since it made the MLs lose too).

    Thanks to those events, we know now it's probably best to never ally with ML's under almost any circumstances, even dire ones, and going forward we can avoid those mistakes.

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  • [–] -5 points 6 months ago (2 children)

    Let's put aside all the historical revisionism you're spewing, where's your alternative? What group are you suggesting we should join to build resistance? Oh right, you don't have any solutions.

    Dude is definitely a CIA shill.

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  • [–] 14 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

    Links to Anarchist Library article (in an Anarchist community), gets called CIA shill

    🤔

    But for anyone else reading, here's a handy guide on other ways to get involved that not only materially help our situation, but also reduces the feeling of helplessness and despair dramatically, and you'll likely meet some friends along the way.

    Part 1: The big picture

    The protests are good ways of meeting like-minded people in your community to form connections, as well as spreading awareness of local mutual aid groups so more can join or form ICE resistance groups who can join an encrypted chat to coordinate, alert neighbors, and talk strategy. It also is a good place for unions or union members to encourage others to unionize their workplaces, which can also ultimately work toward a national general strike, which is our most tangible and powerful collective action.

    The country would be brought to its knees if suddenly deprived of profit and labor, allowing us to directly demand real changes (such as ending the war in Iran, ceasing support for the genocide of Palestine, and Abolishing ICE).

    The General Strike was extremely effective in Chile in 2019, and had they not fallen for the trick of liberal reform, they would've had a successful revolution on their hands with virtually no bloodshed.

    Part 2: Learn First Aid

    Violence is being used against those who resist and it will only continue. It extremely important to have the skills to be able to keep yourself and others alive if they get hurt.

    Tacticool Girlfriend provides a great introduction to building a personal first aid kit, called an IFAK, which can deal with things like bullet wounds and other serious bleeding wounds. I also want to emphasize her recommendation of only buying medical gear from reputable sources (not Amazon!), such as North American Rescue to avoid fakes that could cost you your life.

    But you'll need to learn how to use that equipment, too. The best resource for that is to take a local Stop The Bleed class, which are pretty widely available in most places. They may cost a small fee, but can also sometimes be free. Alternatively, if you cannot access a local class, this video by PrepMedic will give you a solid understanding of how to use Tourniquets and Gauze for wound packing.

    Injuries are less harmful if they are tended to early. Learning first aid can help conserve resources when healthcare becomes unaffordable. Having several medics in case of harm by police is an extremely powerful morale booster during a protest that may become a police riot. When you become comfortable with the basics of first aid, riot medicine is the next suggested step.

    Part 3: Establish or join local Mutual Aid networks

    If you haven't already, get to know your neighbors. Mutual aid is a willingness to support and grow your community. This can include informal networks through friends, tenant/renter organizations, solidarity groups, and industrial unions.

    These are groups using direct action to solve each other's problems. Building strong communities makes it difficult for fascism to take root. The actions of the government are going to hit every community hard, and the ones who build trust in each other and work together are most likely to survive. We've been building a list of resources in !inperson@slrpnk.net to help you on your way. Also check out this handy guide to find existing groups in your area.

    This isn't only for your own community protection. Your ability to organize today will change the political landscape tomorrow. When revolution occurs, the social organizations that show the greatest resilience through the regime are the ones typically calling the shots when the dust settles. When it comes to elections, get out the vote drives are useless if most of the voters are fascists. At some point, you have to do grassroots political education if you don't want fascist candidates winning elections. Mutual aid networks are excellent forums not only for teaching each other good political ideas, but demonstrating them in practice.

    There's also some projects you can do that help build community (and can be fun in themselves!), for more info, go here, and scroll down to the "Fun Projects to Build Community) section"

    Part 4: Join a Union to help prepare for a General Strike

    If you aren't in a union (or even if you are, it's worth dual-carding), consider joining the IWW to unionize your workplace (bonus: you'll get higher wages, better benefits, and more time off if you succeed!) to make a general strike possible.

    Once you are in a union you and your coworkers will need to pressure your leadership to prepare for a general strike, as well as pressure them to organize with other unions to enact a general strike. This is especially true if you are in a more traditional union that isn't the IWW. Your local shop may need to organize directly with other unions if your union leaders are too cowardly to do so.

    Most unions have a strike fund that can supplement your income during a general strike to make it more financially bearable (you should also save as much money as you can reasonably do, so it can also be used to keep yourself afloat during a strike). A General Strike is officially planned by the UAW for May 1st 2028, but it was planned before Trump was elected, and by then will be too late, so prepare now for one that may start sooner.

    You can contact the IWW with the link below:

    And for our international friends, you should join one as well, as fascism is gaining momentum globally. If your country isn't listed below, just contact the IWW directly in the link above, and they'll help you set up a new local branch.

    • 🇦🇷 Argentina: FORA
    • 🇦🇺 Australia: ASF-IWA
    • 🇧🇷 Brazil: FOB
    • 🇧🇬 Bulgaria: ARS, CITUB
    • 🇩🇪 Germany: FAU
    • 🇬🇷 Greece: ESE
    • 🇮🇹 Italy: USI
    • 🇮🇪 Ireland: IWW Ireland
    • 🇳🇱 🇧🇪 Netherlands & Belgium: Vriji Bond
    • 🇪🇸 Spain: CNT
    • 🇸🇪 Sweden: SAC
    • 🇬🇧 United Kingdom: UVW
  • Part 5: Adopt Security Culture and Digital Camouflage

    Sometimes benign seeming efforts can turn into unexpected personal data collecting traps. Like an obscure website for exchanging contact info with other students turning into a global ad-tech surveillance network (Facebook), or innocent seeming online personality tests being use to harvest character profiles. Even Etsy, Reddit, Tinder, and Duolingo are feeding information to US Government Agencies like ICE.

    Security culture is commonly used to describe the general awareness of such potential traps and how it can affect groups or entire communities. This goes beyond mere individual privacy efforts, as without joint efforts these often fail to work.

    Especially in activist circles, security culture is paramount. For opsec reasons not everyone in the group might be aware of what clandestine efforts others are involved in, but with a general security culture many potential data leaks can be avoided.

    Movements are made by the volume of their participants, and the easier and less dangerous it is to participate, the more people will get involved. As more people get involved, individual involvement becomes even less dangerous, creating a virtuous cycle.

    We'll start it off with some General Advice:

    • Mentally wall off personal uniquely identifying info from your online presence, actively build a habit of opsec so that withholding information is your default mental state
    • Be careful about who you meet online
    • Use different, unrelated usernames, passwords & emails for every account. And try not to connect to those accounts with your real IP address (use Tor or a VPN)
    • Be mindful that anything done online leaves a trail
    • agents provocateurs may seek to find patsies willing to perform an ill-advised illegal activity in order to legitimize police repression. If someone is trying to pressure you, especially if you don't have a long and proven history with them, be extremely wary.

    For a full guide on what encrypted communications platforms to use, and how to stay off the radar, read the Digital Camouflage section within the Monthly Meta post here (you'll need to scroll down. I'd add it here, but it won't fit in this comment).

    I'd also highly recommend Full Spectrum Resistance to anyone who wants further info on how to resist (audiobook version here).

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  • [+] -1 points 6 months ago (10 children)
  • [–] 3 points 6 months ago (8 children)

    What a pessimistic view. In 2008, the PSL's presidential candidate recieved 0.01% of the popular vote. In 2024, their candidate received 0.11%. That's a 1000%+ increase in their votership in less than 20 years, while operating in a country where communism is illegal and the forces of capital spend billions of dollars on pro-capitalist propaganda each year. If anything, they are thriving more than ever.

    Or do you think revolution happens overnight and can just spontaneously happen without any mass class consciousness amongst the people?

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  • [–] 6 points 6 months ago (1 child)

    In 2008, the PSL’s presidential candidate recieved 0.01% of the popular vote. In 2024, their candidate received 0.11%. That’s a 1000%+ increase in their votership in less than 20 years

    Political equivalent of this tweet:

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  • [–] 3 points 6 months ago

    Context is everything. And in this case, the context is the United States. If we were to translate it to that meme, the baby would have doubled in weight despite having thousands of ticks sucking their blood every second of their life. It would be a miracle the baby is still alive at all.

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  • [–] 2 points 6 months ago (1 child)

    Wait, wtf is this electoral shit? What are they actually doing to cause the revolution?

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  • [–] 4 points 6 months ago

    Oh, their primary focus is building a vanguard party, but they engage with electoralism because Americans think that politics only exist during elections. They have to meet the people where they are at. You know, material conditions and all that.

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  • [+] -1 points 6 months ago (2 children)
  • [–] 3 points 6 months ago (1 child)

    So an organization that is growing exponentially is dead. Right.

    Honestly you are the one who sounds like a government shill, telling people to give up on existing organizations that are having great success.

    Or maybe you are just expecting too much too soon. Which is not realism, but idealism.

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  • [–] 0 points 6 months ago (3 children)

    Sounds like you don't see shit and are too lazy to inform yourself on the "resistance"

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  • [+] 1 point 6 months ago (2 children)
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  • [–] 9 points 6 months ago (1 child)

    All of those stories feature saviors instead of popular uprisings.

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  • [–] 9 points 6 months ago (2 children)

    These movies tell people that someone else will come along and overthrow the tyrant for you. Usually a hot chick in a great outfit.

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  • [–] 7 points 6 months ago (1 child)

    All experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.

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  • [–] 7 points 6 months ago (3 children)

    I was watching one of the new star wars shows with my kids and the villain basically says he’s going to enslave the people of a world. And I thought, how is it that we recognize that as evil but once you put a wage into place we behave as though there is a meaningful choice?

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  • [–] [S] 1 point 6 months ago (2 children)

    The introduction of a wage serves primarily to sanitise coercion. When the only alternative to accepting a wage is starvation or homelessness, the concept of a meaningful choice evaporates.

    This is a perfect example of the architecture of obedience. By institutionalising exploitation and framing it within the language of contracts and economics, the ruling class successfully rebrands subjugation as voluntary participation. The underlying threat of ruin remains constant, it is just obfuscated by the structural design of the economy.

    We are conditioned to recognise overt physical force as tyranny, yet we accept systemic economic violence as the natural order of the world.

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  • [–] 1 point 6 months ago (1 child)

    I just wish more people understood that.

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  • [–] [S] 0 points 6 months ago

    Most actually understand it. They have simply been conditioned by religion, culture, and politics to accept it. We are trained to vie for the zenith and to believe that stepping on others to achieve it is acceptable. Society conditions people so thoroughly that pointing out the wrongs of the elite is quickly dismissed as mere envy.

    A friend often remarks when politicians steal from the commons, "If it was us, we would do the same." That plural pronoun is crucial. The majority project their own moral bankruptcy onto the rest of the species, refusing to accept that not everyone is equally vile. This psychological conditioning keeps them functioning as willing victims who operate under the assumption that they will eventually get their turn to be the oppressors.

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  • [–] 13 points 6 months ago (4 children)

    I get the sentiment but this is called an appeal to fiction. It really isn't sound logic

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  • [–] 4 points 6 months ago* (3 children)

    “Appeal to fiction” is not an argument fallacy when the discussion is about IRL events, even if using fictional stories as a tool. Appeals to fiction are about written fictional stories and the events within them.

    That said,

    Making the choice that your fictional heroes are the ones fighting an obviously bad opponent yet in real life deciding to support an antagonist that is directly relatable to the fictional ones really is mental gymnastics and hypocritical.

    Unless they secretly side with the Empire and just lie to everyone that their hero is on the Rebel side.

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  • [–] 2 points 6 months ago* (2 children)

    Right. Forming a decision or reaching a conclusion about real-life events while basing and/or relating part of that assessment on similar fictional events, is the appeal to fiction. Fiction and non-fiction are fundamentally separate, and needs be considered separately. That distinction is important especially when making comparisons.

    The lack of nuance, openness to interpretation and fundamental disconnect which an appeal to fiction inherently carries with it is a large part of what you're describing in the second part of your reply. (IE right-wing "blue pillers" with its relation to The Matrix)

    People naturally desire and seek out narratives which align with their views or beliefs. This also makes it entirely too easy for them to mold or fracture parts of fictional themes to fit those beliefs while discarding parts that don't: Writers be damned. It isn't JUST intellectual dishonestly that you are observing here, as convenient as that conclusion would be. This is a basic part of human nature. It will happen every time. I promise you that right wingers are sharing this exact meme and making the same statements about us.

    The classic court room example of this would be when an attorney argued that a FED, CIA, or LEO's actions were justified because they closely resembled or even exactly mirrored the actions taken by Jack Bauer in the TV series 24. Even if the events, character, and outcomes of these two scenarios (fiction vs non-fiction) were literally identical in every conceivable way: It would not then be rational, relevant, appropriate nor admissible in any way for the attorney to then pose to the jury that, "When Jack Bauer did this, you clearly understood the necessity and moral justification. But you're refusing to see it in the reality of what our Officer did" - To relate as closely as I can to the meme above.

    Parable, metaphor and simile can often serve as convenient didactic tools when introducing complex messages to the otherwise uninformed. Like a professor using a cheeky pop-culture reference in the opening slide of a presentation. It's a very imperfect tool; useful, perhaps, as a narrative hook. The important divergence here is that this brief messaging then leads into the real and nuanced discussion about non-fiction or fiction and where they relate separately without conflating the two.

    This is something which brief, easily sharable memes and political cartoons don't do by their nature, leaving only the fallacy.

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  • [–] 0 points 6 months ago (1 child)

    You can’t force something that doesn’t exist.

    An appeal to fiction is about writing and plot choices within a fictional story.

    That’s a lot of words you wasted.

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  • [–] 0 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

    This is a public forum. My last post was written primarily for clarification and to provide more accurate information to future readers. I would not bother replying to misinformation if these messages were strictly private.

    It's okay to disagree with someone. It's even understandable when some people want to feel 100% correct about something by endlessly playing semantics. I've seen more than my fair share of this behavior. This is nothing new to me.

    However, while I can tolerate someone who is simply trying to be pedantic, I will not engage with someone acting in bad faith.

    Goodbye, and thank you for providing these opportunities for me to elucidate. "That's Those were a lot of many words you wasted well spent." :)

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  • [–] 6 points 6 months ago (1 child)

    How many worm lovers missed the point about Paul?

    What you see here is more of a product of simple movie plots IMO.

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  • [–] 4 points 6 months ago

    Paul Atreides is a classic Tragic Hero.

    He has the full arc, including the fall caused by his own hubris.

    That's what most people miss, because they only read the first book, or watch the movies.

    Frank Herbert seems to have drawn inspiration from Greek Tragedy and the life of Lawrence of Arabia.

    T.E. Lawrence sort of created the mess that is the Modern Middle East. Sure the Ottoman Empire was oppressive, but the chaos Lawrence created allowed the region to be carved up and divided by the French and British. Who instantly betrayed Lawrence's allies in that fight.

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  • [–] 5 points 6 months ago (1 child)

    I see it, its just that in reality a significant portion of "the resistance" has contributed to reinforcing and strengthening the tyranny it claims to be against, in a bid to force me into joining it due to the threat of devastating collapse of basic support systems.

    The resistance in our reality is a villain, just a lesser one.

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  • [–] 16 points 6 months ago (9 children)

    What I found funnier is that these fictional people armed themselves. They violently opposed their oppressors. But many people are still brainwashed that peaceful protest, or single day protests, will end the oppressions.

    You're supposed to make your actions unavoidable to ignore. The oppressors has to consider you a threat to even begin dialogue.

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  • [–] 1 point 6 months ago* (8 children)

    None of those people live in a democracy. We do. If you overthrow a democratically elected tyrant, the demos who outnumber you will democratically install a new tyrant. The only way to solve the problem and make it last is by convincing the people, not by fisticuffs.

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  • [–] 8 points 6 months ago* (6 children)
  • [–] 0 points 6 months ago* (5 children)

    It ceased to be a democracy when he declared himself emperor for life. https://youtu.be/f2H4AI21tEs

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  • [–] 7 points 6 months ago* (3 children)

    And it worked, historically, and fictitiously.

    You can't vote your way out imperialism, you need to feverish oppose all forms of oppression. Whether at the ballot, and at a deathcamp.

    #Landback when?

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  • [–] -1 points 6 months ago* (2 children)

    It did not work fictionally. Nobody supports rebels in a democracy. They are rooted out of their communities and punished as terrorists. Only when it was no longer a democracy did the rebellion work. The same is true historically. If the people being oppressed can vote for their rulers, violently attacking them instead always fails.

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  • [–] 3 points 6 months ago (1 child)

    Yet Myanmar , Thailand , Nepal , and Spain uprooted their oppressors violently without democracy.
    South Korea kept it's democracy by taking the tyrant violently .

    It just seems the disconnect is plain old complacency.

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  • [–] 4 points 6 months ago*

    Yet Myanmar ,

    Myanmar wasn't a democracy.

    Thailand ,

    This prime minister was removed by the court, not by violence.

    Nepal , and

    This is the only example you gave of a democratically elected official who was violently overthrown. I said that if you violently overthrow a democratically elected tyrant, the majority will simply democratically install a new tyrant. That's exactly what happened in Bangladesh, with the same party being elected after it was violently removed. Nepal seems to be a vanishingly a rare counterexample. We'll see how long that lasts.

    Spain uprooted their oppressors violently without democracy.

    Spain also wasn't a democracy.

    South Korea kept it's democracy by taking the tyrant violently .

    Also removed by the court, not by rebel violence.

    It just seems the disconnect is plain old complacency.

    No, if you violently remove a democratically elected official, that official will be democratically replaced with more of the same. Violence doesn't magically change voters' minds to agree with you.

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  • [+] 8 points 6 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (1 child)
  • [–] 5 points 6 months ago

    It's really true and took me years to realize that they think of themselves in the same way that revolutionaries think of themselves. It's sad because they are shoulder to shoulder with power and the whole thing is an illusion, just lies fed to them by right wing think tanks.

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