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[–] 198 points 6 months ago* (55 children)

Interestingly enough, this project was originally licensed under the MIT license, but Motti was advised that said license does not protect physical hardware, so it changed to the CERN-OHL-PT license. Should you elect to build your own unit, be aware that the frequencies it operates in are almost assuredly highly regulated in your legal jurisdiction.

Also be aware of anti radiation munitions if you decide to operate one of these in a warzone. Radarmen have very short battlefield lifetimes because turning on a radar without lots of electronic countermeasures (hell even with countermeasures) is basically like turning on a spotlight that says “blow me up”.

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  • [–] 119 points 6 months ago* (36 children)

    So, one of the really interesting things to me about this approach is that it offers the same asymmetric value proposition that cheap attack drones do to modern pre-drone IADS.

    That is: this is a platform that costs 10-15k, and an AGM-88 of modern manufacture costs almost 900k, and a Kh-31 costs about 550k - and, just as importantly, both require a long time to manufacture. So, you could theoretically make a moderately large distributed array sprinkled over a few square kilometers, and even if they’re ALL turned on, it quickly becomes logistically infeasible to knock them all out without spending a silly quantity on antirad munitions, as well as massively attriting your stocks of antirad munitions. And if you turn like 10-25% of them on at a time and cycle through your array, the problem becomes even harder for the attacker. And if you have some sort of process or mechanism - like, oh I don’t know, figuring out how to do light aerial transport with cargo drones, or even figuring out how to mount these distributed array nodes on the drones themselves, and some sort of lightweight tether for providing power - the problem becomes a MASSIVE pain in the ass for an adversary (especially that last idea, which introduces z-axis and immediate maneuverability, such that the array could feasibly detect and altogether avoid an incoming antirad munition).

    And that’s the paradigm of modern warfare - not just drones, but also networked and attritable systems that maintain functionality when elements are taken offline

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  • [–] 28 points 6 months ago (6 children)

    adding to this. I imagine that the emitter by itself costs a fraction, so set-up a huge array of these dumb emitters, and a few active systems randomly within that array. You'd essentially create an interdiction zone.

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  • [–] 16 points 6 months ago* (3 children)

    You'd end up jamming yourself. You can't really have radars or other strong electromagnetic warfare devices near each other operating on the same frequency since they tend to interfere and wash out each other's signals.

    As a decoy makes sense though since you can send them far away on a drone or something.

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  • [–] 6 points 6 months ago (2 children)

    You can if they're all synced up together

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  • [–] 10 points 6 months ago (1 child)

    I think this is just the wrong intuition. Not a faulty one, but one which is mostly the same as the doctrine which is being exposed as entirely ineffective.

    US military doctrine is the "towards complexity" doctrine such that your opponent also needs to follow you into complexity. This worked for the US in the post WWII era because it was coupled with an exponentially increasing economic output.

    Whats being show, as doctrine, is "away from complexity" and "towards distributed" approach to warfighting ends up being far more effective.

    So coming from, practically, 100 years of "more advanced more complicated technology and approaches are better" being doctrine, its understandable to want to add complexity to systems.

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  • [–] 2 points 6 months ago

    I can’t help but think this shift in doctrine could lead to the fall of an empire, with a new ideology in power rising from its ashes. We saw a very similar pattern during WWI, where changing doctrines led to an imperial collapse and paved the way for a new ideology taking power.

    We might be on the verge of seeing history repeat itself.

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  • [–] 6 points 6 months ago* (1 child)

    That's just not how phased array systems work. The system we're talking about needs to have excruciatingly tight and correct timings regarding signal transmission and reception. These are beam forming systems, so a multidimensional array of antenna are using to steer the beam, using constructive and destructive interference to "point" the energy where you want it to go. That alone requires extremely tight timing. That's coupled with a phased array receiver system, so that you can detect very slight changes in the wavelength/ speed of the return signal to apply the doplar effect to detect things like motion. The github states that this system operates at 10.5 GHz, of which one RF cycle is about 95 ps, ~2.5cm. This puts the practical per-element beamforming granularity/error budget is very much in that sub-picosecond to picosecond-equivalent range. That would be practically impossible for anything but a coupled system.

    Not completely impossible, I mean, probably US military systems exist in a decoupled system. But its technologically way, way way harder because timings need to be nano to pico second correct.

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  • [–] 6 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

    Maybe they could be synced using RF over fiber. This has been proposed as candidate technology for 6g wireless networks, to enable cell free massive MIMO.

    That would mean that you would need to run optical fiber to each of them, though we've already seen fiber drones spool out kilometers of the stuff as they fly.

    EDIT: I just remembered this interesting article about doing radio interferometry over a fiber network using cheap quartz oscillators instead of atomic clocks. My (layman's) understanding is that the quartz oscillators are good enough over a few milliseconds, but will fall out of sync with each other over longer time spans. Meanwhile the fiber optic reference signal (distributed from a central atomic clock) can be kept correct on average by reflecting the reference back down the fiber and doing active correction of the changing path length (caused by thermal fluctuations and vibrations along the fiber) but will be incorrect on a millisecond-to-miliscond basis because of light speed lag and the path length being a moving target. So they use the quartz oscillators over small time scales and use the fiber reference signal to keep them synced over long time scales. Surprisingly the article says they actually get a better sync this way than with using multiple atomic clocks.

    So perhaps something like that is possible.

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  • [–] 7 points 6 months ago (20 children)

    Unless I'm missing something in your plan i don't think that would work well. If these radar stations aren't surrounded by very serious defensive systems for hundreds of miles in every direction, then they'll simply be blown up by dumb howitzer shells that only cost around 2000 dollars.

    Howitzers are cheap, relatively long range, mobile, and accurate enough. If you don't have strong enough defenses to prevent the howitzers from moving into range, then they'll just blow up all your radar stations with cheap shells.

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  • [–] 3 points 6 months ago (19 children)

    The locating them is the problem I think

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  • [–] 6 points 6 months ago (18 children)

    Locating the radar base station? No that's the easiest part. Radar is like turning on a Hollywood style searchlight pointing up into the sky. The instant you turn it on its extremely obvious where the radar searchlight is coming from

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  • [–] 2 points 6 months ago (17 children)

    Yeah I should correct myself

    Finding them isn't the hard part you are right. Finding a spot that you can shoot them from without being exposed yourself is the hard part. The range on an unguided howitzer is much less than radar, and the guided ones are more than $20,000 and the accurate range is not much longer than the cheap radar.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M982_Excalibur

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  • [–] 2 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (11 children)

    Locating radar emissions is a passive process, it doesn't reveal your own location. That's why i said the radar array would have to have very strong defenses extending out 30 km in all 360 degree directions from each individual radar station. And if a group has that strong a level of military equipment already then i don't see why they would need this huge redundant array of radar stations all concentrated in a small area.

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  • [–] 2 points 6 months ago (4 children)

    And locating radar emissions is a passive process, it doesn’t reveal your own location

    That depends very much so on the radar system. In practical terms, almost all the radar systems we're discussing here are going to be both transmitter and receiver in one design. You can't simply rely on passive radio energy to detect moving objects in a complex environment. You would want both passive and active beam forming in one instrument; not having both is just leaving some of the most valuable developments in modern radar on the table.

    And the specific radar we're discussing, is an active, pulsed LFM phased-array radar. It does both, because, obviously it needs to do both. Its wouldn't be useful for its intended use if it cant do both.

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  • [–] 2 points 6 months ago* (3 children)

    Your information about passive radar detection is not up to date. There are tons of passive detection of radar systems that by design do zero emission. The radar array stations will need to emit in order to function, but the enemy can find those radar emitters without emitting any energy of their own

    https://daronmont.com.au/products/passive-radar

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  • [–] 0 points 6 months ago* (2 children)

    Okay so I was overly general with my first statement.

    No one is saying passive radar systems don't exist. We've been using them for decades and there have been massive improvements. But the actual radar system we're discussing here isn't. You simply aren't going to get the same capabilities from a purely passive system than you will from an active + passive system where you can tightly control the frequencies and directions you are transmitting on, and have the information about what frequencies you transmitted on, when you transmitted them, and how (what array configuration) you transmitted them. The point is that the transmission itself is structured to reveal certain information. So when you get a response back (also, coming back to a phased system), you can learn far more about your target than you could in a purely passive system because you that prior information about what you transmitted.

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  • [–] 2 points 6 months ago (1 child)

    Your confused about what I'm saying. The ARRAY OF RADAR STATIONS is emitters. I'm saying THE ATTACKERS AGAINST the array of radar stations only need to be passive detectors.

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  • [–] 0 points 6 months ago

    No, I'm not confused whatsoever. You can not get the same kind of information using radar using the system you are describing. Period. You are confusing broad, beacon like radar systems (like a flashlight or a paint brush) with phased systems, which are fundamentally different.

    Phased systems depend on nano-pico second scale precision in timing; you aren't accomplishing that across a distributed system. And the exact structure of the beam that is going to be formed is dependent on what the receiver has detected, whatever scan pattern is being used. They are a coupled system.

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  • [–] 1 point 6 months ago (5 children)

    Basically you deny enemy armor and other infantry support into the area you are working in, which means the infantry can't operate effectively in that area.

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  • [–] 1 point 6 months ago (4 children)

    I'm not understanding. Let's say army A has a radar array of 500 relatively cheap radar stations. They clump them all into a 1 square km area. So now army Z drives some howitzers nearby (which aren't detectable by ground based radar), waits till a radar station turns on, the passively locates the radar base station, and shoots a cheap shell at it which destroys it.

    But if you say army A has the level of military equipment that can locate and destroy howitzers up to 30 km away in all directions, then what benefit does an array of concentrated radar stations provide?

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  • [–] 2 points 6 months ago (3 children)

    I don't know where you are getting this 1km cluster idea from.

    The point of cheaper radar systems is that you don't need to defend them as much, because destroying them requires equipment that's more expensive than the radar station. They overlap, and the locating that they provide can both protect the stations themselves and other targets in their coverage area.

    How are those tanks going to maneuver undetected without air support?

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  • [–] 1 point 6 months ago (2 children)

    That's the topic of the thread your replying in. Quote:

    you could theoretically make a moderately large distributed array sprinkled over a few square kilometers

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  • [–] 2 points 6 months ago

    Many counter fire radars have tracked their own incoming death. You have a good minute or so from first track until the round impacts. That’s enough time to track the round and send out a counterbattery mission destroying the fucks that killed you buy you’re still dead unless the round happens to be a dud.

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  • [–] 1 point 6 months ago (3 children)

    A quad copter with 500g of payload would be just as effective

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  • [–] 1 point 6 months ago (2 children)

    The drone operator would be in the radar station's LOS, even if this thing couldn't detect a drone, which it can...

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  • [–] 8 points 6 months ago (2 children)

    If everyone who studied this went into medicine instead of death…

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  • The system being discussed is not explicitly or exclusively useful in military contexts. There are a LOT of places where advanced beam forming and radar capabilities could be useful outside of that. Not to mention: in military applications, this is pretty definitely a defensive system.

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  • [–] 4 points 6 months ago (2 children)

    Why suddenly are these required to be taken out by anti rad munitions?

    It's radar. They're practically setting off a beacon of their location through operation.

    No I'm not disagreeing with you on the principle and have been making the exact same argument about scaling and cost in regards to the US defense doctrine for years. But there is no special munitions required to take out a small radar system, which is basically a bunch of highly sensitive electronics which must be exposed for the instrument to work. Any basic quad drone with a reasonable payload could easily take one out.

    This doesn't detract from you main point, which I entirely agree with and have been promoting for years.

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  • [–] 1 point 6 months ago (1 child)

    I’m talking about HARM and friends because in terms of quickly executing a kill chain against a transmitting radar, antirad munitions are the gold standard. Sure, it can be done other ways. But it generally involves a lot more systems with relatively complex integration.

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  • [–] 3 points 6 months ago

    Yeah I mean, this speaks even further to the doctrinal difference I'm trying to highlight.

    How are the Ukrainians pushing back on radar systems? Are they relying on anti-rad munitions? Well. No. We're seeing them using long range drones, which, arguably, is far less complex, much more versatile, easier to produce, and cheaper to produce. The difference highlights the doctrine difference.

    This is all really a debate about how one thinks about fighting a war and what one values along the way.

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  • [–] 2 points 6 months ago

    Could they not "just" use FPV drones with nades to take those flimsy radars out anyway? Instead of expensive ammunition. If it's possible then it slashes down the price to take out these radars to a few thousands at most

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  • [–] 45 points 6 months ago (1 child)

    This is absolutely a thing. I remember reading a story about this, this was years ago, but this guy worked for the air force of some nation in heavy conflict. One of the most used weapons in this war was an anti-radiation missile, it would loiter for some time until it detected an emissions target then lock on and destroy it. Whenever they needed to use radar, they would hotwire a bunch of microwave ovens to work with the door open, then plug them in with like six extension cords plugged together. The missiles would lock right onto those microwave ovens and blow them up. He was joking about how the enemy would boast they destroyed 15 aircraft that week on the ground, when his force only had 10 aircraft to begin with.

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  • [–] 34 points 6 months ago (6 children)

    Hmm, considering how cheap these are to make (relatively speaking) could it make a good decoy? Basically set a bunch of these up in random places away from anything important with remote on switches and when missiles start flying power them up one at a time. They're more expensive than the anti-missile drones (those are supposedly about $1000 a piece) but they might be more effective in their own way.

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  • [–] 42 points 6 months ago* (4 children)

    Possibly but you could just put any radio signal up for a decoy, you don’t need something this fancy. Radar is just radio waves. The fancy part is collimation of the beam and sensing of the return beam. That’s what costs money.

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  • [–] 4 points 6 months ago* (3 children)

    OK, so a basic radio antenna that emits the same kinds of signals a radar would? Why isn’t every army already doing this? Sounds so obvious. Imagine if these things could start attracting missiles that cost millions to fire.

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  • [–] 8 points 6 months ago (8 children)

    Turn it on in peacetime anywhere near to anything interesting and you'll get a visit from your local military police.

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  • [–] 26 points 6 months ago (7 children)

    Probably one of the spectrum regulators will show up (the FCC in the US) not MPs.

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  • [–] 2 points 6 months ago (6 children)

    Maybe, but I’m not in the US. The US is not the whole world.

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  • [–] 13 points 6 months ago (5 children)

    Most of the world has spectrum regulators for that sort of thing, it isn't only a US thing. MPs aren't really the people who would be investigating unless you live in some authoritarian regime where the police and federal regulatory bodies are commingled.

    I could be wrong but I can't think of an example where a military regulates spectrum in any meaningful way and a quick web search turns up nothing.

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  • Living near military installations would be the big exception. I live probably about 20 miles from a massive radar facility that can track planes from across the Atlantic ocean, and doing anything within the area to set something like that off would probably have the MPs knocking on your door long before anybody else. I think even flying drones above a certain height isn't allowed for miles around.

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  • [–] -3 points 6 months ago (3 children)

    Ah yeah you must be right then because a quick web search (in English I assume) didn't turn up anything about other countries' counter-terrorist organisations or the fact that radar is used for missile locks for anti-aircraft missiles. Good comment.

    The US is not the whole world.

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  • [–] 2 points 6 months ago (2 children)

    They never implied that the US is the whole world. They merely mentioned what I assume is the regulatory body that they're familiar with.

    If I said that the regulatory body who would be knocking on your door in France is ANFR (L'agence nationale des fréquence), would you complain about how France isn't the whole world?

    I get that we're all sick of American-centrism, but that was a really benign comment. They have no way of knowing what your country's regulatory agency is offhand.

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  • [–] -1 points 6 months ago (1 child)

    And yet your other comment agrees with my point.

    I think the context that you and the original commenter missed is

    "near to anything interesting"

    What do you think that means in the context of radar? What is radar used to measure?

    Living near military installations would be the big exception

    It's like you just want to disagree with me because someone else downvoted me.

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  • No? I agree with you on the radar. This other comment was simply about repeatedly stating that "the US is not the whole world." Nobody ever said that it was or implied some kind of US-centric worldview/behavior. The other commenter merely stated who the regulatory body is who would be involved in yelling at you for turning on the radar equivalent of a fog horn if you were in the US, probably because those are the laws and regulations that they're familiar with.

    Near something important? Yeah, you're most likely getting a hasty visit from the local MPs. But outside of those areas, you're going to get chewed out by a government branch like the FCC in the US or the ANFR in France.

    But saying that isn't me saying that "France is the whole world" or something. I just happen to know what part of the French government is involved in regulating radio frequencies in the country.

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  • [–] 337 points 6 months ago (8 children)

    Game changer. This is going to save me so much on my monthly radar bills.

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  • [–] 24 points 6 months ago (2 children)

    There are companies that offer RaaS, basically radar rentals.

    Source: my company had a customer who rented a weather radar for a year to do a study on weather patterns in South America

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  • [–] 55 points 6 months ago

    Prices for electronics are exceedingly floaty in these ship-shinking days

    I don't always make typos but when I do I sound like Sean Connery.

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  • [–] 44 points 6 months ago (5 children)

    The fact that Aeris-10 offers a true phased array system and ±45° elevation/azimuth adjustments are seemingly its differentiating factors. Prices for electronics are exceedingly floaty in these ship-shinking days, but a brief estimate pins the bill of materials at $5,000 for the 10N and $7,200 for the 10E.

    So for $21,600 I could attempt the goal of the main characters in Twisters.

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  • [–] 3 points 6 months ago* (2 children)

    Strapping you and your almost-ex-wife onto some random pipe in a barn so you can both get sucked up by an F5 tornado?

    I'd say that's worth it.

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  • [–] 5 points 6 months ago (1 child)

    Twisters (the recent sequel starring Daisy Edgar-Jones, Glen Powell, and Anthony Ramos) has a new team trying to set up 3 phased array radars 120° from each other to catch an unprecedented surround view of a tornado. It was better than I expected.

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  • [–] 1 point 6 months ago*

    Even for a post-mortem Crichton film and story?

    Have you seen what they did to Jurassic Park? I mean, Timelines was bad enough (unless you're desperate for Paul Walker eye candy), and that was while he was still alive. So bad that he didn't have another movie writer's credit until he'd been dead for 7 years.

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  • [–] 43 points 6 months ago (9 children)

    Ukraine: "Write that down! WRITE THAT DOWN!"

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  • [–] 35 points 6 months ago (8 children)

    This doesn't have any practical application in Ukraine.

    Ukraine detects FPV drones with numerous distributed and networked microphone/acoustic sensors. You're not going to get any cheaper than a used phone paired with a $2 USB solar panel.

    The larger Shahed/Geran and above stuff isn't limited by radar detection. What they need are cheap interceptors to deal with swarm attacks.

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  • [–] 16 points 6 months ago (4 children)

    If you crack the combination of "actually cheap" and "reliable interceptor", the US military industrial complex is going to build you your very own Scrooge vault.

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  • [–] 1 point 6 months ago* (1 child)

    I've sometimes thought that WW2 flak cannons (~artillery) with a programmable fuse (set immediately before "launch" by radar) could be effective. You would get longer range than C-RAM or laser and artillery shells are cheap. Shahed/Gerans are not particularly fast or durable. It wouldn't take much to make it fall out of the sky: close enough is good enough.

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  • [–] 1 point 6 months ago

    The Russian Navy stays way, way the hell away from the Ukraine coast these days. The drone-boat bombs have them running scared. Even Sevastopol in Crimea is too risky.

    The system is called Loki and sold by SAAB now, but well, the gun base can be an AA/Naval gun with origin from the 1930ish, but then some parts are changed to get a speed to follow drones, the original handcranked aiming systems.

    Video from Swedish Defence https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yO4QMZ1n4_Q

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  • [–] 13 points 6 months ago (1 child)

    Radars are very much in use in Ukraine. There is a whole range of air targets besides FPV drones, there are ballistic missiles, fighter planes, bomber planes, helicopters, gliding bombs, and ships, all of which require a radar to detect.

    Acoustic sensors have limited range. By the time it detects a missile, it's already flew one kilometer away, and it's too late to grab your AA gun. Gliding bombs are silent.

    Radars have 50+ km range, and allow to shoot bombers and ships from beyond the border with expensive US-provided missiles.

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  • [–] 3 points 6 months ago

    Again, this particular DIY radar has no application in Ukraine. It does not have a 50+km range (10km). It can not direct or interface with an interceptor missile, of any kind, to shoot down TBMs, Shaheds, etc. The critical issue really is how many interceptor missiles Ukraine has and far less about janky early-warning radar coverage.

    Acoustics are used for FPVs, which have a tiny radar cross section and can fly at tree top altitude or lower. A basic/crude DIY radar would not be effective there and at $12,000 vs $Free, acoustics win hands down for FPVs. The Gepards (AA gun) have their own onboard radar already for cruise missiles/shaheds. No one is proposing or expecting acoustics to track missiles or bombs. These are two very different problems.

    The Russian Navy stays way, way the hell away from the Ukraine coast these days. The drone-boat bombs have them running scared. Even Sevastopol in Crimea is too risky.

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  • [–] 37 points 6 months ago (3 children)

    This is the real way to hurt a company. Once an open source version exists, even if it is not as good as the commercial offering, they will have trouble convincing people to pay for what they are selling.

    Of course, they should be compensated for their work, but if you can build it yourself then the cost to a company does not need to be much higher than the costs of parts and labor for someone else to do it for you.

    One of the things I want to do is build decent applications and release them for free so people can get the same functionality of their paid apps but not need to pay anything.

    Main thing stopping me is time.

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  • [–] 5 points 6 months ago

    Military tech companies will be perfectly fine. They typically have 10+ year contracts, and military equipment has a huge price margin in exchange for being reliable and field-serviceable, and the main disadvantage of DIY radar is reliability (unless you also recruit the guy who built it into the army).

    It will probably impact civilian market more, where the same companies will try to sell you an unnecessarily hardened machined aluminium box full of cheap Chinese electronics, camo painted for an additional ten thousand bucks.

    Their next commercial offering might just be cheaper.

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    [–] 24 points 6 months ago (4 children)

    by coupling this with the open source stinger project i saw last month do i suddenly have my own patriot defense system?

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  • [–] 9 points 6 months ago (2 children)

    Nah, that missile was visual tracking. Not radar guided. Also, way too small to intercept anything going high and fast which is generally what the patriot is for. Intercepting an aircraft requires a really powerful motor to give it enough speed and altitude to catch a plane.

    This radar could maybe be used with a semi active radar guided missile, where the ground radar lights up the target and the missile just has a detector that homes in on that, which is what early patriots used. But it’s only got a 20km range which isn’t really enough for an anti aircraft system, unless all you’re worried about is something slow and low to the ground like a helicopter or cesna. Need enough time for the radar to detect, identify and lock the target, fire the missile, and have it track to the target, and something moving fast and high will be in and out of the range of the radar before all that can be done. Especially if the target is high up at 10km, which would half the effective range.

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  • [–] 2 points 6 months ago (1 child)

    I though SARH missiles work by having an off missile system provide target location information and the missile just knows where it is via gps or IMU data. (and thus brings the missile from where it is to where it isint. This is a half joke)

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  • [–] 1 point 6 months ago

    It depends on the system, often times they’ll have additional guidance assistance, such as an infrared seeker or some inertial posturing system. SARH just means the main guidance is provided by a seeker picking up radar from a external emitter painting the target. As supposed to ARH (active radar homing) where the missile has its own emitter and detector. Most systems aren’t just one thing these days, for the sake of redundancy and error correction.

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  • [–] 5 points 6 months ago*

    Not even close, both of these projects are wildly deficient for that kind of use and the effort required to solve those deficiencies would at least 10x if not 20x the cost.

    That doesn't mean they are useless, I can definitely see some eyebrow raising asymmetric possibilities.

    If you're seriously interested in this DIY Radar System I strongly suggest you grab a full copy from Github and put it on local storage as I doubt it's going to remain up for long.

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  • [–] 20 points 6 months ago (2 children)

    Motii claims that military surplus radars can be had for $10k to $50k,

    What, really? Who is buying military surplus radars?

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  • [–] 14 points 6 months ago (1 child)

    Definitely not coming to a battlefield near you any time soon.

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  • [–] 6 points 6 months ago (2 children)

    this plus automatic anti drone drone network would render long range drone obsolete

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  • [–] 17 points 6 months ago (1 child)

    Counter measures don't typically make a weapon platform obsolete.

    What makes a weapon platform obsolete is that it's role is no longer needed in battle.

    Long-rang strikes and precision fires, are the new meta.

    Expect to see a proliferation of new countermeasures, such as cheaper and more plentiful detection systems, of which radars will play a part, but they're also easy to detect and destroy i.e. SEAD.

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  • [–] 1 point 6 months ago

    I was actually wondering if this would actually deter or counter SEAD as due to its low range and low cost you could set up much much more of them across a larger area either saturating the enemy’s ability to do SEAD or at the very least causing the enemy to incur larger ammunition costs/risk their crafts on more sorties

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