The video’s opening shot shows a man hiding under a bed snipping in a hole in someone’s sock. Seconds later, the same man uses a saw to shorten a table leg so that it wobbles during breakfast. “My job is to make things shitty,” the man explains. “The official title is enshittificator. What I do is I take things that are perfectly fine and I make them worse.”

The video, released recently by the Norwegian Consumer Council, is an absurdist take on a serious issue; it is part of a wider, global campaign aimed at fighting back against the “enshittification”, or gradual deterioration, of digital products and services.

“We wanted to show that you wouldn’t accept this in the analogue world,” said Finn Lützow-Holm Myrstad, the council’s director of digital policy. “But this is happening every day in our digital products and services, and we really think it doesn’t need to be that way.”

Coined by author Cory Doctorow, the term enshittification refers to the deliberate degradation of a service or product, particularly in the digital sphere. Examples abound, from social media feeds that have gradually become littered with adverts and scams to software updates that leave phones lagging and chatbots that supplant customer service agents.

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[–] 135 points 7 months ago (25 children)

For me it’s a tale about loss of ownership in a dematerialised world. No one is going to cut a piece of my dining table because I own it and physically have it entirely at my side.

I’ll never own (my locally installed) Spotify nor the songs I listen to. Though for the later I have vinyl alternatives which no one is touching.

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  • [–] 60 points 7 months ago (10 children)

    If you want a specific variety of a plant that's patented by, say, Monsanto, you don't own the seeds you get but rather their permission to plant them.

    If you re-plant seeds in your own field produced by the crops of the previous year on that same field they can sue you and they will win (see Bowman v. Monsanto Co.)

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  • [–] 10 points 7 months ago* (4 children)

    That's cool. Good thing I have a black light, and can modify the seeds the same way they do. Therefore, not the same seeds.

    Edit: didn't make this clear enough, the idea is to lightly modify their seeds just enough to make it legal. If they want to be shitty, we can be shitty right back. Any rule they make for us they make exceptions for the rich. Therefore, with enough cleverness and a stubborn refusal to accept others bullshit(and a bit of spite) you can exploit their rules and bend them to your will.

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago (1 child)

    Or they can just unfairly fuck you over even though it's hypocritical and illegal and makes no sense

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago

    I mean yeah, that's fair. That's why I take the initiative and illegally fuck over any big company I can. Obviously can't give any examples, but I believe the top rated sub outside of porn on Reddit back in the day was a good starting place. You like boats?

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago (1 child)

    I have no experience agriculture patents, but couldn't Monsanto make it illegal for someone to modify "their product" without their explicit permission?

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago

    I left it in the sun too long, oops. Well, now that this is no longer one of your seeds as it contains distinct genetic differences which differentiate it from the genes listed in your patents, I guess there's no issue with me running experiments on it?

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  • [–] 7 points 7 months ago*

    Enshittification is the product of high-barriers to entry in markets, especially monopolies.

    As it so happens, the entirety of Intellectual Property legislation purposefully and artificially creates monopolies where they would naturally never exist and give said monopolies to specific people, supposedly the creators of intellectual works and inventions, but in practice it's to companies.

    So, unsurprisingly, it's in the domains were Intellectual Property dominates - were monopolies are not just common but actually the norm - that the most enshittification happens.

    So yeah, Patents, anything to do with Music or Video distribution, Software and because of things like anti-circunvention legislation (which is supposed to block unautorized copy of copyrighted materials) in general any form of digital content since for-profit companies invariably place digital content under some form of access control exactly because they can use anti-circumvention legislation to block their customers from moving to better products and services without incurring significant inconvenience.

    IMHO, tearing down Intellectual Property legislation (or at least have it include forced interoperability as well as make consumer data be owned by the actual consumers with company-bankrupting fines for abuse) would reverse most enshittification, at least in the digital world (were anti-circumvention legislation is especially bad in terms of destroying even the smallest element of a Free Market).

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  • [–] 2 points 7 months ago

    Indeed. IP / patents is clearly a source of issue in physical objects as well. But once you buy them seeds they stay « according to the initial specs ». They won’t suddenly grow another plant once you have them.

    You might not be allowed to do anything you want but that’s another annex issue.

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  • [–] 21 points 7 months ago

    In his Enshittification book, Cory referred to this as "technofeudalism" —essentially the return to the feudal society where there are owner elites and peasant subjects. The owners control everything, and the peasant have to rent access under the terms and conditions set by the owners. In the technofeudalism model, everybody (the peasants) have to subscribe to access anything from the corporations (the owner elites), with the corporations retaining all the power.

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  • [–] 12 points 7 months ago (3 children)

    You can have digital no problem. I have 25 year old mp3s. It just needs to be physically on your drives. You can pirate or purchase music today without issues. Spotify just scratched that laziness itch at one point in time and now you are locked in.

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  • [–] 4 points 7 months ago* (1 child)

    For anyone who is interested in returning to simple mp3 players, check out the Snowsky range by Fiio.

    The Echo Mini and soon to be released Echo Nano are pretty great little pieces that inhabit the offline music (and not your phone) space.

    Edit - and Bandcamp or Soulseek to fill the drives up :)

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago

    I have some cowon player around here but cannot find it anymore. That old thing supports 128gb via SD card.

    What I would like is something modern, small player with a clip and Bluetooth for the buds.

    Running could be so awesome but here we are running around with heavy phones. I guess some people use watches like that.

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  • [–] 8 points 7 months ago (8 children)
  • [–] 15 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (7 children)

    Yeah but I’m not putting my turn table in my back pack to go fishing with ;-)

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  • [–] 14 points 7 months ago (5 children)

    There's always the in between "ipod-era" setup, which is what I'm trying to transition back to: ripping and collecting media locally, then listening to it on my phone without streaming.

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  • [–] 4 points 7 months ago (4 children)

    Ha yeah the times of my creatives « something ». It was so easy to manage. Less convenient than Spotify but that was super nice. Though it’s bound that there a plex equivalent for audio that I could look into. Family sharing is one of the functions I would miss going back to the dedicated player.

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  • [–] 2 points 7 months ago (3 children)

    I use Jellyfin for simplicity, which probably isn't the most preferred service for music, but it doesn't really matter if you're accessing it from your choice of mobile app anyway. You can set it up to stream your music library to your phone anywhere if you want also. (Android Auto even has an app)

    I'm not confident enough to open up my media server to the outside world yet because I'm still a noob at this stuff, so I just have my full library when I'm at home and anything I've downloaded to my phone while I'm out.

    You can even set up family sharing - you just give them a login, and they have access to all the same music.

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  • [–] 6 points 7 months ago (1 child)

    On the open to the outside world I bypassed the issue by only allowing vpn into the local network and the particular subnet allowed to vpn users is itself limited to specific resources on our internal network. Removes a lot of headaches but in general I don’t go for the hassle to setup the vpn accounts for rando / acquaintances.

    I looked into jellyfin but my first attempt was not the success I hoped it would be hence why I use plex for videos.

    Smart idea to use such a solution for audio but it likely comes with limited playlists features and no lyrics ?

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  • [–] 2 points 7 months ago

    Playlists are easy enough so far. It just depends on what app you use to access it, I think. I don't know if there's a limit. I've never looked into lyrics, but I would assume it doesn't offer that unless it's pulled with the metadata or something.

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  • [–] 3 points 7 months ago

    I don't know about fishing, but I use a portable turntable to listen to records outside.

    The power cable is USB, so it runs fine on a powerbank. The speakers are horrible, so I also bring a portable battery powered speaker.

    It's not really worth the hassle in comparison to just using a Bluetooth speaker, but it's an excellent way to waste time on a long summers night.

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  • [–] 72 points 7 months ago (2 children)

    A few days ago I tried to find the best frame of the video to turn into a meme. This is what I came up with.

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  • [–] 50 points 7 months ago (6 children)

    The problem here is - in my opinion - caused by:

    • the need to chase unlimited growth (by definition impossible)
    • lacking regulations
    • monopolies and such
    • price fixing
    • weak worker rights

    The right always chasing "deregulation"? Well, here is the result. High profits, high prices, shitty products and services.

    And the people suffer.

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  • [–] 18 points 7 months ago* (2 children)

    Also the mental disease which is known as "wanting to be a billionaire". Everything in the world is structured around making that status the ultimate goal. It is like endorsing sociopathy.

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  • [–] 41 points 7 months ago (2 children)

    As they say. The cloud is someone else's computer.

    Emphasis on someone else

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  • [–] 81 points 7 months ago (10 children)

    the term enshittification refers to the deliberate degradation of a service or product, particularly in the digital sphere

    That's not exactly what it is, though. Enshittification is the deliberate degradation of a product for the purpose of extracting maximum revenue, where the product is progressively degraded up to the point where the consumer ditches it, but not exactly to it.

    Without the tie to maximum revenue and measurement of consumer ability to cope, it's hard to understand why enshittification is so brutally frustrating.

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  • [–] [S] 56 points 7 months ago* (5 children)

    Cory Doctorow describes the stages of enshittification as follows:

    It’s a three stage process: First, platforms are good to their users; then they abuse their users to make things better for their business customers; finally, they abuse those business customers to claw back all the value for themselves. Then, they die.

    And for good measure he reminds us of the why and how things used to be better:

    The pre-enshittification era wasn’t a time of better leadership. The executives weren’t better. They were constrained. Their worst impulses were checked by competition, regulation, self-help and worker power.

    https://doctorow.medium.com/my-mcluhan-lecture-on-enshittification-ea343342b9bc

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  • [–] 12 points 7 months ago (2 children)

    You know, I agree with him that the pre-enshittification era wasn't a time of better leadership, but I don't think he got the reason for the change right. I think what we call Late Stage Capitalism comes from a single source: corporations don't give a rat's ass any longer if they exist in ten years. They are willing to toss reputation and long-term prospects out the window because the only metric that matters is quarterly numbers.

    It's a thing I noticed on the Internet. I wondered why so many sites become big and then shoot themselves in the foot. We are on Lemmy (well, I am on Piefed) now, many of us from enshittified Reddit. But Reddit was the savior from an enshittified Digg, which was the savior from an enshittified Slashdot, etc. It figures that each iteration knew they were going to die making the choice they made, but also knew the quarter would be spectacular.

    That worries me, because it's much easier to destroy something than to build it. If you go and look, the Internet is slowing down. It isn't being innovated, despite the need to do so. Instead, the big players see something grow, and they use their massive resources to buy it and kill it.

    That's why I love open source: what is being built has long term plans. The main way that open source projects get enshittified is when they close source innovation and then follow the same trajectory as the big companies.

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  • [–] 3 points 7 months ago (1 child)

    I think you're being overly optimistic about the dying part. Folks here are not exactly a random sample - even if many people see the enshittification of Facebook or Reddit, they will feel unable to leave. Especially for social media there's a huge network effect - the value of the product is in the fact that "everyone" is there. Or for Google products: there are just so many different problems for the user to solve (if there's a current solution at all!) before being able to move. So yes, the focusing on quarterly profits extracts value at the cost of everyone else, but it might not be enough to kill the product. Or at least not for quite a long time. For me the root of the problem is that we gave up on countering monopolies. This has always been a grave enemy of "efficient" capitalism, but over the last few decades we kind of stopped efforts to prevent this. It automatically leads to worse service for any client, not just in the digital sector. Worse, it leass to concentration of power in such few hands that any political system shifts into an oligarchy.

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago

    Yeah, I do get it. I made fun of my younger brother because he still uses a yahoo.com email address, and then my older brother chimed in from his hotmail account.

    Also agree on the dangers of monopolies. It may just have happened that the FTC was unable to crush them before they got too big, a side effect of Internet growth. The processes to control corporations could not cope with the phenomenal growth of Google, Facebook, and lately openAI.

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  • [–] 20 points 7 months ago

    Actually, I think that's the main process of enshittification, but I don't think enshittification is always deliberate.

    Very often software products are tweaked, changed, or even degraded in an attempt to "simplify" or "improve" a particular user experience at the expense of another UX.

    And to make matters worse, some companies end up with a Frankenstein product of confusing functions because they are trying to cater to two entirely different user bases within the same product.

    E.g. Microsoft may genuinely have believed that changing their system settings UI in Windows 11 to "consolidate and reduce drift" of system configurations would improve the everyday user experience, but they failed to account for the decades of inertia they'd built up from their prior OS user base and how that would piss off a not-insignificant number of other users who had grown accustomed to the way the product had previously worked.

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  • [–] 10 points 7 months ago

    Feels very fitting for The Guardian to downplay how the profit motive inherent in capitalism contributes to enshittification, even when Doctorow's original definition clearly includes it.

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  • [–] 7 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

    That's still not it, though. Extracting maximum revenue is just the default state for all things in capitalism, so it is not a qualifier or distinction that is useful to identify enshitification.

    Enshitification is a model specifically for platforms. It's not enshitification if it isn't a platform; that's just sparkling greed.

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  • [–] 62 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (7 children)

    Not sure I agree with the statement that we wouldnt accept enshittification in our analog lives... ovens and refrigerators with screens and becoming unrepairable, cars are only sold with onboard computers and power windows with no other price point, materials for most household items becoming plastic / single use / or deliberately designed with a failure lifetime. I recently started buying clothing with no synthetics and they are unfathomably better performing in terms of breathing, odor, comfort and warmth. We've forgotten what physical products used to be like, in 20 years we will have similarly forgotten what un-enshittified internet / tech was like.

    I think, and perhaps it's scarier than anyone wants to admit, we've already gotten accustomed to or given up fighting against enshittification of the analog world.

    The common thread is capital and financialization, and there can be never be progress until the ideas in "how to win friends and influence people" are called out as demonic and unhuman.

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  • [–] 7 points 7 months ago (1 child)

    I agree with everything you said, but why you gotta do power windows dirty like that 😭

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  • [–] 8 points 7 months ago

    I don't think they were shitting on power windows, but rather the lack of option for a lower priced model without them. It wasn't too long ago that there were economy models without power windows available for certain cars.

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  • [–] 29 points 7 months ago (1 child)

    https://youtu.be/T4Upf_B9RLQ

    Here's the video, it's funny cause it's infuriatingly true.

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  • [–] 25 points 7 months ago

    “We wanted to show that you wouldn’t accept this in the analogue world,”

    Ummm... It's happening constantly in the "analogue" world.

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  • [–] 46 points 7 months ago (32 children)

    As long as companies primary purpose is to make value for the shareholders, this will continue. It is a race to the bottom.
    How do you fix that without massive upheaval for the people you are trying to help. I don't know.
    Companies used to have a smaller reach, meaning less total and potential customers. So they had to balance what what was good for the shareholders qith what was good for the customers or risk losing both. But products are often global now, especially digital ones. There seems to always be more customers to replace the ones they lose. And investors don't care as much about the long term since they can trade stocks so quickly. Maybe the solution is required holding periods for stocks or something. Higher short term capital gains taxes, and better incentives for long term gains.

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  • [–] 23 points 7 months ago (3 children)

    Government should be the balancing act in response to this. Regulations enforced by Governments.

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago (2 children)

    That is a nice thought. But the government has never been "for" the people. And you can't reasonably expect people who are chosen by a popularity contest to be able to devise a way to provide that balance. It's not a required skill to get elected. And you can't expect the voters to know what real skills a polotician has. The spin and propaganda are just to effective at manipulating voter impressions. So it can't be the government...

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago (1 child)

    Governments should be more or less thinktanks for the Nations issues. They're not expected to know all the answers, but collectively, they're in a position where they have access to the people who do. Ideally, they work together to solve a Nations issues.

    What is the alternative if not government?

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  • There is no alternative, but that doesn't mean we can reasonably expect our governments to do it. History says they won't. Humans need to evolve more in some directions before any group larger than can truely know each other can sustain working for the common good.

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  • [–] 12 points 7 months ago (6 children)

    As long as companies primary purpose is to make value for the shareholders, this will continue.

    I'd say its one step worse than that. If you just wanted to return value to shareholders, the 2010s Facebook model of selling a few ads in between pictures of people's pets and graduation photos would work just fine. They could have churned this for decades unimpeded. And the less they fucked with the model, the more money they'd have made long term.

    It isn't merely shareholder value that these companies crave, but perpetual double-digit growth in valuation. And, to that end, they're gutting the golden goose for a sudden spike in quarterly profits.

    It isn't enough for Zuckerberg's company be valued at $100B. They needed to go for that fourth comma. So they started coming up with crazy - apparently impossible - ideas to reinvent themselves into... the Metaverse, where your whole OS is in VR! Diem (formerly Libra), the Killer Stablecoin! Whateverthefuck AI thing they're doing, to make human labor irrelevant!

    Because they've bought into a notion of perpetual high speed growth through financialization. They cannot conceive of any kind of economic boundary or closed system. Like a deadly virus that spreads too quickly, they cannot see the edges of their population space or curb their basic impulse to consume.

    There seems to always be more customers to replace the ones they lose.

    So much of the drive towards AI is an insane quest to create a financial market without human customers. Just a big machine that sucks in investment capital and reports back a higher earnings figure.

    It's increasingly divorced from any kind of material condition. And increasingly predicated on unfettered access to an unlimited pool of natural resources backed by an unchallenged Petrodollar.

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  • [–] 3 points 7 months ago (5 children)

    So I will disagree on one point. If facebook stayed with just a few ads, that would not make value for the shareholders. Shareholders only make money if the stock price goes up, which requires people to buy it at the higher price. And if the company isn't growing double digits, buyers will go elsewhere. So the drive to produce shareholder value forces companies to chase the double digit growth or die. And shareholders want quick gains, so they can move on to the next company with double digit growth.

    It's not the ceos who are the reason for all this. It's that all this causes boards to chose ceos that operate this way. People see that, and then aspire to do the same so they can be rich. This is why ceos spend so much time essentially marketing thier companies ideas. Thats how you get the stock price to go up. Buyers buy on the perception that a company is doing great things, or will. Reality doesn't often factor in like people think it does.

    As for AI. They don't care about replacing humans. All they care about is a sales pitch that makes the stock price go up. If telling people that there software will replace humans does that, then that is what they will say. They don't let reality get in the way.

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  • [–] 2 points 7 months ago (2 children)

    If facebook stayed with just a few ads, that would not make value for the shareholders.

    Artificial scarcity is its own driver of revenue. At that point, you're not competing for space on the screen, you're competing for number of people who see your content. "Do you want 5000 views or 50,000? Do you want them to see this once? Ten times in a month? Daily? That'll cost you extra."

    The value of an ad has diminishing returns. One billboard on the side of the road attracts your eye. Ten in a big messy cluster get ignored.

    Facebook could have leveraged this to command higher rates for their ad content, rather than trying to engage on sheer volume. Now the website is down the same rabbit hole as Yahoo.

    It’s not the ceos who are the reason for all this. It’s that all this causes boards to chose ceos that operate this way.

    The Founders trade out shares to partners who then occupy the board. Normally, one of the Founders is the original CEO, because they have a controlling stack in the firm. New board members are introduced by the founders and often have a personal relationship with them. And with stock swaps, the CEO of one company can sit on the board of another. Michael Dell sits on Broadcomm's board for this very reason.

    Tesla's board is a classic example of this incestuous back-scratching. Robyn Denholm moved from CFO of Juniper Networks - a major supplier for Tesla - to the audit committee chair of Tesla (and yehaw, what a job that must have been, given their shady business practices). She also is an operating partner at Blackbird Ventures, a venture capital firm which is a major investor in xAI, another of Musk's pet startups.

    Once you climb to the top of these hierarchies (or you start getting into seriously investing in any of them) you start noticing these circular networks of leadership and trade. The Oracle / OpenAI / Nvidia circuit is another great example.

    As for AI. They don’t care about replacing humans.

    The very real and explicit and demonstrated belief among these tech billionaires is that they can automate away the need for humans - both as labor and as clients. They're building (or, at least, trying to build) a financial closed loop.

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago (1 child)

    I agree with you about the circular networks of leadership on boards. But they do still have to answer to the hedge funds and such that have large stakes in the company, and can tank the stock price by selling suddenly. And they also have a fiduciary responsibility to the shareholders, who can and do sue. But my point was that the boards chose CEOs that favor the short term. And because of that, more people who want to be ceos try to follow that pattern.

    As for the replacing humans. I just don't think they care about that as much as making money. Myevidence is that they aren't idiots. They know AI as it is today isn't going to replace humans. But saying it will boosts thier stock price.

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago (1 child)

    If facebook stayed with just a few ads, that would not make value for the shareholders. Shareholders only make money if the stock price goes up, which requires people to buy it at the higher price.

    https://www.investopedia.com/terms/d/dividend.asp

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  • [–] 13 points 7 months ago* (5 children)

    It won't stop until stocks are no longer a thing.

    Honestly it seems like a bad idea to have stocks in the first place

    Like a loan shark you can never get rid of.

    Why does this even exist ?

    I remember learning about the stock market in grade school and I thought it was stupid then and I think it's stupid now.

    It's harmful in pretty much every way.

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  • [–] 4 points 7 months ago (2 children)

    Stocks aren't necessarily a bad thing since they in theory represent abstract ownership of a thing. Perfectly fine when privately held, it becomes an increasingly problematic thing when. Traded on an open market though.

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  • [–] 4 points 7 months ago (1 child)

    I think whenever stocks exist, regardless if private or public, the goal of the company becomes focused on increasingly profits instead of sustainability.

    Not that non-traded companies don't want profits too. But the goal of "forever-increases" in profits will ultimately be destructive to a company as it will lead to lower quality, more exploitation, and intense focus on monopolizing their industry as that will be the only way to retain customers.

    I think investing in companies is not really a bad thing. But it should be more like a set contract with an end date and/or amount.

    More like a loan with interest. From a bank. Or how some contracts are made with movie actors and such.

    A percentage of profits over a 10 year period or something.

    Idk. There has to be a better way to do this.

    The stock market has too much influence on the economy without bringing a benefit that surpasses the damage it does.

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  • [–] 4 points 7 months ago

    The nature of non-traded and private stocks can be debated for days, especially when you get into the minutiae of stuff like mining stocks for example where it can represent the payout to workers, investors, and owners at the end of a season. But what has made itself evident is that the stock market should not be allowed to exist as it is. Maybe it can be devolved back into resource stocks but that's just getting into your contract loan/payout idea.

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  • [–] 2 points 7 months ago

    This is the race to the bottom I mentioned. If one country doesn't allow stock in their companies to be bought, the companies can't make as much money. So they don't form as often or move. Then that country goes into a recession. Overall, it is the lack of a world wide coordinated effort to prevent the incentives to mortgage the future for gains today.

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  • [–] 5 points 7 months ago (13 children)

    It can change, but it'll require a large number of people seeing it as a problem worth addressing. Companies currently don't value customer experience very well and haven't for a long time, witness how phone customer service has become loaded with automated services standing between users and a small phone support staff. But if that were change, if stockholders were to come to see how much users hate that, and more importantly if users were to base their habits on that decision, it might cause things to improve. Money people, despite their near-legendary density, tend to be very nervous about trends. It might be possible to spook them.

    Well, I think it could happen. I've been wrong before.

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago (12 children)

    It's tough, the companies can't change unless the people do. Meaning customers refusing to do business with companies that have bad customer service or refusing to buy stocks in such companies. But there will always be people who see that they can make money off of other people doing that. And it doesn't work if some people get rich bucking the trend.

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago (11 children)

    Companies very well can change. Nothing forces them to enshittify their customer service for what amounts to virtual pennies per user. It's entirely a case of narrative capture among business people, the conventional wisdom that they have to do this stupid thing. That's it.

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago (10 children)

    Unfortunately, that just isn't true. The board of directors have a legal fiduciary responsibility to the share holders. And they hire or fire the ceo. If they don't chase that virtual pennies, the shareholder can, and do sue them.

    And as I said, if they don't do things that at least make it appear they are attempting to increase profits, shareholder will sell, and they will go out of business.

    It's a race to the bottom. And the system is to blame. The system has rewarded people who enshitify products, and thus it has shapped who gets hired to make those decisions.

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago (9 children)

    It's because those shareholders are captive to that same narrative. These practices do carry a real cost, but executives have made themselves blind to it. There are people who's job it is to judge the value of customer satisfaction and loyalty and to measure it against the cost of providing good service, and they think the former is less valuable than the latter. My premise is these people are not doing their job well.

    This view of the purpose of a company, to ruthlessly extract every cent of value from a company or else face the wrath of shareholders, it's a fairly recent view. Shareholders selling doesn't cause a company to go out of business, failing at that business does. Stock price falling is a different issue, it matters because company success has come to mean the success of its shares more than the amount of customer goodwill. But that matters.

    I sense though that we really aren't on different sides. I wouldn't say you're absolutely wrong, nor that I'm absolutely right. We both have profound dissatisfaction with this world that all these rapacious companies have build around us. The next generation of business people, if we're privileged to even have one, will have to figure out some things for themselves all over again.

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago (8 children)

    I do agree we seem to be on the same side.
    Semantics is a bit of a passion of mine. The question I think we differ on the answer to, is wnat is an executives job. I wish it was what you appear to believe. But at the nd of the day, they are there to make money. And helping the stock price makes money for the people above them, who in turn will ensure they are employed in the future. Including at a different company.

    And true, a falling stock price does not but a company put of business, that was a poor choice of words. It causes it to get bought by someone else, and either disolved or absorbed. So I guess maybe extinct is a better word. It certainly is more fun.

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  • [–] 2 points 7 months ago (7 children)

    Please consider: it at executive's job is only to make money, then why would any executive do anything but chase the single most source of maximum profit, which right now is obviously scamming people and courting Trump's favor to get out of consequences? Who would care about building anything real? How could they? Just chase hollow bets and game the system as far as you can?

    You can complain about capitalism, and indeed there are many problems with it, but I think you should realize that today's hyper rapacious version of it is not historical, it's a fairly recent interpretation of the law. A company is more, MUST be more than a single minded profit making engine. If it always had been, our civilization would have collapsed long before now.

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago (6 children)

    I think the balancing factor is that customers sometimes identify the executives and latch on to their activites. Like the theranos lady, and the martin guy who raised the price of some medication. Essentially going viral like they did really slows down a career. So they are held a bit in check. And similar before as well. The mechanism was a bit different, but the people and the customers held them in check much more before. That was because most companies had a smaller customer base. So it was easier for customer sentiment to cause them real issues.

    The other case is the one you pointed out. Founders. Companies who's founders still own a majority have limits to how much they will tarnish their creation. Each founder is different, but on the whole, they usually are more constrained than a CEO brought in by non-founders.

    And in many cases, they do simply scam people. Usually by selling them a product that takes thier data. So they get paid for the product, and then again for the data. And they also start pushing ads. Take roku. You pay for it, but they have added ads that weren't there when you first bought it. That is an obvious scam. Take car rental companies. They will take your reservation, make you pay up front sometimes, and they know they won't have the vehicle you reserved a certain % of the time. But they don't care. And they won't compensate you other then to give you something you didn't reserve (if your lucky) and claim it is an upgrade. Health insurance... you pay them, they do everything they can to intentionally put barriers between you and what you paid for. Airlines... clickbait scam sites. Phone companies, who can know who is really calling you, but won't bother to stop them from impersonating other numbers because the scammer generate money for the phone company as well. Amazon who raises the price and then claims a thing is on sale when it is actually more expensive during the big sale.

    The list goes on and on. Heck, ever read your employment contract. Mine basically says they reserve the right to change the rules unilaterally such that I am in breach of contract. And thats standard apparently (I asked a lawyer). That shouldn't even be a legal contract.

    A company isn't a person. It will only act like one when it is in it's own self interest. And the pressure that the populace used to be able to apply to keep it in check is getting less and less effective.

    And last, most of them do pay tribute to trump if he takes notice of them. Others just try to stay out of his sight. But how many immediately cancelled all dei training and such as soon as he took office. Without even specifically being asked.

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  • [–] 2 points 7 months ago (5 children)

    Companies who’s founders still own a majority have limits to how much they will tarnish their creation. Each founder is different, but on the whole, they usually are more constrained than a CEO brought in by non-founders.

    Well that can go either way. Mark Zuckerberg, for example, wasted billions on his cockamamie Metaverse idea, and even named the company after it.

    Heck, ever read your employment contract

    Can't, as I am fully self-employed, much to my dismay when it comes time to file taxes in the US.

    Mine basically says they reserve the right to change the rules unilaterally such that I am in breach of contract. And thats standard apparently (I asked a lawyer). That shouldn’t even be a legal contract.

    Ideally that wouldn't hold up in court, although of course the burden is on you to prove it if it goes that far, yay.

    And last, most of them do pay tribute to trump if he takes notice of them. Others just try to stay out of his sight. But how many immediately cancelled all dei training and such as soon as he took office. Without even specifically being asked.

    Oh yes, I know. We must remember everyone who did that, they should not be allowed to live it down, ever.

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago (4 children)

    Well, zuck wasting the money though wasn't enshitification. He really believed it was the future. And he wanted in early. Honestly, that kind of leadership is what we need more of. Innovation. He just also enshitifies the rest of the company's products to pay for it. So we need, the inovative part of zuck, and not the rest.

    And on my contract, you are right, it "might" not hold up in court. But they know I won't have the means to challenge it. I know know one guy who did challenge a big company on an employment issue. He had a lot of money, no kids, and was well past the point when he could have retired. He spent about 10 years, a ton of money, and a ton of his time. He was traveling to various places to attempt to meet with government officials that would take his calls and such. He practically got a law degree for the amount of time he studied law. In the end, he had to take a settlement of some sort. His goal had always been to hold them accountable for ehat they did, not to get money. But it became obvious no matter how much proof he had of age discrimination, he was never going to win the cause. Their pockets were just too deep. And the system itself was made with roadblocks like needing some federal labor board type things review, yet the board didn't have enough people appointed for quroum becuase they had to be approved by congress. So it litteraly could not do the review or whatever. In the end I think he just got too old to fight anymore, and money was running low.

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago (3 children)

    Zuckerberg wasn't early though, in many ways he was late. Virtual worlds have been tried many times, with varying degrees of success. Second Life is still hanging on. His fault was trying to make it, somehow, a business think, when it should obviously be a gaming thing. Zuckerberg has never been an innovator. He was a geek who got lucky, had a round of mythologizing about him, and got a sweetheart deal in Facebook's IPO that he could never be ousted no matter what stupid decisions he made, otherwise he'd be long gone over his Metaverse fiasco.

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago (2 children)

    Well business is where the money is at. So that part makes sense. And while it wasn't completely new, building on something that already exists is still innovation. Most things are built on something else. I'm not sayi g he is an amazing innovator or anything. But what he tried to do was better than just buying more competitors and shutting them down while shoving more and more ads in people's faces. So, innovation lite. Lol.

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago* (1 child)

    Eh, if you define it that way then almost anything is innovation.

    But innovation, even at the low bar you define it at, for its own sake is useless. It has to do something substantive, or else it's just more noise.

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  • I think of innovation more like following ideas instead of money. Money is almost always involved, but somewhere there is a hard to define line between doing something innovative that will also make money, and doing something innovative to make money.
    Butt right now, we have a lot of companies that just do what other companies have done to make more money from their existing products. Putting in more ads isn't innovative.

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  • [–] 8 points 7 months ago

    As long as companies primary purpose is to make value for the shareholders, this will continue. It is a race to the bottom. How do you fix that without massive upheaval for the people you are trying to help. I don’t know.

    Remove shareholders from the equation.

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