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[–] 91 points 8 months ago (4 children)

Truly every time period of human civilization had something in it that would make future generations shake their heads in disbelief.

"How could they use gigawatthours for crypto farms and useless AI applications while fully aware of a climate crisis caused by fossil fuels?", a student might ask his history teacher some day. "Because they were dumb as fuck.", the teacher might answer.

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  • [–] 36 points 8 months ago (3 children)
  • [–] 221 points 8 months ago* (6 children)

    As an American I appreciate how they included both metric (Joules) and imperial (hours running a microwave) measurements

    😂 1
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  • [–] 46 points 8 months ago (4 children)

    I only know how long bald eagles burn for.
    How do I convert microwave hours to bald eagle burn time (in number of football games including all dead ball times and the halftime shows)?

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  • [–] 14 points 8 months ago (3 children)

    (in number of football games including all dead ball times and the halftime shows)

    Wait are we talking mid-day NFL, primetime (SNF/MNF/TNF/Playoffs), or Superbowl? Or are you talking CFB, and if so is it one of the big conference games or is it only showing on ESPN+?

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  • [–] 7 points 8 months ago* (2 children)

    Yes

    (And all owls are superb)

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  • [–] 5 points 8 months ago (1 child)

    ....taking into account up to 5 testicles at 60mph, but take away 3 standard rats (not McDonald's rats) to the power of 3 number 2 pencils HD if using mechanical pencils. That comes out to 37burnt eagles and 3 frozen yogurts.

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  • [–] 39 points 8 months ago (3 children)

    I have a new Retirement plan.

    1. Buy a gun
    2. Shoot it at datacenters.
    3. Eat some chips or something
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  • [–] 24 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    I don't think energy consumption matters to most people. I still can't believe the whole planet is "on board" with using a metal box that weighs around a ton, or much more, fill it with fossil fuel, and burn it to move that heavy box and generally a single person everywhere they go. Then they complain about the price of the fuel that is slowly choking the environment they need to drink, eat and live. But we can't say anything bad against cars. Just buy an electric car because it fixes all the problems if you ignore wasted energy, microplastic pollution, noise pollution, the impact of parking, the millions of dead humans every year, and the billion animals considered roadkill every year. There is no more gas problem!

    So, I wish this would make some people realize how power hungry and destructive AI can be, but I'm pretty sure most don't give a fuck because "it can be useful", just like cars. So far I've read people defending it saying power usage and efficiency will improve with time. Or that AI will find a tech solution to the AI problem.

    It will do the same as the car industry. People will begin to use it, find it some use despite its flaws, and defend it tooth and nails while it's bringing us closer to environmental doom. You will consoom.

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  • [–] 9 points 8 months ago

    It's kind of hard for me to criticize cars when without one I wouldn't have a job, food, clothes, or really anything of the sort. Absolutely zero thought put into public transportation where I live, and the only bike lanes are about an hour bike ride away, with my job being the same distance. I'm just so tired boss.

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  • [–] 6 points 8 months ago*

    People will start caring when the energy costs start to spike up. And with our little energy crisis looming; it is a good time to tell them how much of their electricity bill is subsidizing idiots like Sam Altman and Dario Amodei.

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  • [–] 23 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (24 children)

    3.4 megajoules = 944 watt hours

    Microwaves are typically rated at 1200-1500 watts, sometimes more. Do they actually use that much? I'm not sure, stuff typically uses less than the rated power on the label.

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  • [–] 6 points 8 months ago (1 child)

    That's watts, not watt hours though, so it's like microwaving something for a little under an hour, which is unrelatable for most people.

    But take your 300 watt gaming PC, play on it for 3 hours, suddenly you're at 900 watt hours and that's probably easier to picture for most people.

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  • [–] 2 points 8 months ago (1 child)

    typically rated at 1200-1500 watts, sometimes more. Do they actually use that much? I

    i'd say that if it says 1500 watts microwave, then that means that 1500 watts are delivered to your food. the microwave might consume more than that to account for losses.

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  • [–] -5 points 8 months ago (16 children)

    Thank you for the conversion. We have a common unit for electrical energy already, and megajoules is not it. Trying to make it sound like a bigger number by changing the unit only muddies the waters and honestly makes me slightly less sympathetic to the issue.

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  • [–] 25 points 8 months ago (9 children)

    Seriously?

    Joules are the SI unit for energy measurement. 1 Joule = 1 Watt second, so 3600 Joules = 1 Watt Hour

    They teach this in middle school.

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  • [–] 12 points 8 months ago (3 children)

    Ok, but when it comes to electrical energy nobody uses "watt seconds" in the real world. Devices use hundreds of watts, and run for minutes and hours. Dividing by 3.6 million isn't exactly easy mental math to get the unit (kWh) we all see on our electric bills.

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  • [–] 6 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    nobody uses “watt seconds”

    Joules. They don’t say watt seconds because they say joules.

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  • [–] 3 points 8 months ago

    But they don't use that either in the context of real-world electricity usage. Maybe in the middle school classroom setting, when you can make up the numbers you work with, but when I'm trying to quantify how much energy something uses at home I multiply how many watts it uses by now many hours it's running. Divide that by 1000 for kilowatt-hours, and multiply by $.11 to know the cost to do it at home. If I need to do a multiplication/division of 3.6 million when nobody else is, something's not right.

    Similarly, a meter is a standard unit for length, but we don't use it when measuring the distance to different galaxies because light-years are more practical at that scale. If you start using meters you'd get some funny looks, just as I'm feeling for joules instead of kilowatt-hours. But you know, "almost a kilowatt-hour" makes for a pretty boring headline.

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  • [–] 0 points 8 months ago

    Also, you'll notice that I specifically mentioned electrical energy. Electrical power is almost universally measured in watts, the product of voltage and current, not joules per second (even if that's the same thing). So going from instantaneous power measurements to energy accumulated over time, it's not crazy to use the term "watt second" the way one would use "kilowatt hour"... Even if that's also called a "Joule"

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  • [–] 7 points 8 months ago (4 children)

    Yeah, that's true, but joules typically isn't used today. When people talk about energy consumption it's almost always in watts or watt-hours. I've seen/heard people use joules less than 5 times since college.

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  • [–] 2 points 8 months ago (3 children)

    a human consumes about 8 MJ of chemical energy per day.

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago (2 children)
  • [–] 4 points 8 months ago (5 children)

    The way a headline was phrased makes you change your mind about objective truth...? This isn't a family feud where you're being asked to take sides. It's still climate change even if someone tries to trick you into thinking it's slightly worse than it actually is.

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  • [–] 2 points 8 months ago (4 children)

    Not speaking for the sponge, but I know it gives me pause to consider what else they may be manipulating, and also why they're manipulating it

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  • [–] 2 points 8 months ago (3 children)

    Would any manipulation at all justify caring less about climate change? We know from a million sources that ai takes a ton of electricity

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago (2 children)

    @Cort@lemmy.world spoke for me perfectly. When you make things weird, I have to start by assuming malice or incompetence - both of which should be red flags.

    No doubt AI is sucking a lot of electricity and that presents loads of problems to consider. But instead of (for example) 5 seconds being converted to an hour running a microwave (because who even does that?) how about 3 minutes being about as much as a typical American home uses in a day? Or something like that?

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  • [–] -2 points 8 months ago* (1 child)

    You specifically said you became less sympathetic to this cause though. Even if you exaggerated by many times this would still be an issue, which you just admitted.

    I get thinking it's a bad idea for people first learning about this, but it's not changing my mind exaggerated or not.

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  • [–] 0 points 8 months ago

    I generally get skeptical when people go out of their way to use weird units. I don't disagree with the message, just the way it's conveyed whether it's this or giving the price in Zimbabwean dollars (outside of Zimbabwe, of course). If something is weird, one should ask why. And I wish this headline didn't make things weird leading people to ask why.

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  • [–] 34 points 8 months ago

    They definitely need to make measures like this widely available.

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  • [–] 15 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    Lighting the planet on fire for SpongeBob police chase videos

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  • [–] 11 points 8 months ago*

    Techbro bots: "this is the same energy wasted in: [shit that's actually fun or useful] As if AI infrastructure isn't built ON TOP of existing infrastructure and actively leeching off it or lobbying to de-regulate energy to make it even more wasteful.

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  • [–] 11 points 8 months ago

    Fuck this just remindede me I left my microwave on.

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  • [–] 16 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    3.4 giga joules! Great Scott!

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  • [–] 8 points 8 months ago

    I can’t wait until the terror 2.0 when we destroy it

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  • [–] 8 points 8 months ago

    Depends on the model - If you're using Wan 2.x on your RTX 5090 it's like 600W for 10 minutes so roughly 600x600=360kj

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  • [–] 22 points 8 months ago (13 children)

    Who the hell measures energy in joules?

    That's a little under 1kWh. Or playing your gaming PC for 3 hours.

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  • [–] 33 points 8 months ago (5 children)

    I'd much prefer to pay an artist to be using their PC for three hours than a corporation

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  • [–] 10 points 8 months ago (3 children)

    1kWh 3hrs playtime. Not on gaming PC of today. Only my 32" 240Hz display itself consumes more than that.

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  • [+] 5 points 8 months ago* (2 children)
  • [–] 2 points 8 months ago (1 child)

    Yeah. I know. I also have that kind of setup for my kids. Or actually theres 5 gaming setups alltogether. Mine isn't primarily for gaming despite the specs.

    I just wanted to point out that gaming PC setups generally consumes more than ~333W of power.

    Like yours. Given numbers are estimated averages, as I can't know precise specifics.

    GPU 140W, CPU 65W, MB ~35W, RAM 6W, SSD 3W, KBM 1W, Monitor 35W =280W Everything without monitor consumes about 245W. PSU efficiency is about 80% so to produce that 245W it has to draw minimum of ~306W. This combinrd with monitor's 35W sums up to ~341W, which already surpasses that 1/3kWh when playing intensive game from few years back.

    And your 4060 setup while being a gaming PC isn't on a power draw scheme very average as that GPU specifically is very low power consuming. Go older, 3000 or 2000 series or up 5000 series or even any AMD, the power consumption goes up. And there are lots of older setups and even X99 setups with Xenons with up to 125W power consumption.

    Yes, it is possible to have a gaming setup to run on given power consumption, but on average I would say you'll reach 1kWh within 2 hours.

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  • [–] 4 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

    3 hours running completely flat out that is, which does happen with some games.

    Even in those cases the gaming PC is producing roughly 2160x the amount of 'content' per unit of power. Though I guess some (not me) might argue that 5 seconds of AI generated cats fighting politicians has more 'worth' than some 5 second spans of gameplay.

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    [–] 1 point 7 months ago

    Hot take, but this would be fine if power production was clean.

    Microwaves use a crap-ton more power than a stove, but we use them anyway.

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago

    The difference is that the microwave is not as nearly as cancerous.

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  • [–] -2 points 8 months ago (5 children)

    I don't understand these lines of headline. Where is that much power being consumed? I can probably generate a second video on my phone in a few seconds, and I doubt it's using much more power than usual. Maybe the generation is happening elsewhere.

    If you put a Kill-a-Watt on the power cable coming into your PC at home, will you see a huge spike on power consumption when you generate something?

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  • [–] 8 points 8 months ago (1 child)

    I find it unlikely that someone might be on Lemmy and not be aware about the basics of how ""AI"" actually works. But if you don't know, truly, the rundown is that all of these AI apps you use are just an interface where you can make a request to an ""AI"" do something. The ""AI"" is not running on your computer. It's like sending someone a message "hey, do this for me" and they will do it, and then saying you don't feel tired after doing it.

    You can use a 15 year old pc or a top of the line gaming rig, then go to chatgpt website and request something, and the result would be the same, because it's not your machine doing the work.

    Now, you can indeed run local AI on your machine, and if you try, you'd quickly see that you need beefy hardware and that your power use would spike like crazy to deliver results that are way slower than what you'd get from using an app/website. Which makes it obvious that they're using stronger (more) hardware than you are, and, therefore, using way more energy than you are.

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago

    I find it unlikely that someone might be on Lemmy and not be aware about the basics of how ““AI”” actually works.

    That feels unnecessarily aggressive?

    I don't really use it because I don't like it, so I haven't bothered to read much about it. I tried some local stable diffusion image generation and it didn't seem to strain my gaming computer much. I don't have a power measuring device.

    I tried stuff like Claude which I know is running remotely, and I assumed Gemini is remote since Google wouldn't pass up a chance to exfiltrate more of my data.

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  • [–] 3 points 8 months ago (1 child)

    what app are you using to generate video on your phone?

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago

    I tried a few different free apps rather than the official apps of one of the ai vendors. I guess I assumed that most of them were doing their thinking locally but I never tried on airplane mode.

    I did caveat my top level comment.

    Maybe the generation is happening elsewhere.

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  • [–] -5 points 8 months ago (1 child)

    Bold face lie. I can generate longer videos on my home PC.

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  • [+] -13 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    Same as playing 10 min Cyberpunk 2077

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