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[–] 138 points 8 months ago (3 children)
  • [–] 20 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    among the hundreds of other things that "could be tracking me"

    at this point I wouldn't be surprised if my inner most thoughts weren't already uploaded to some giant government server.

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  • [–] 57 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    Your car has a series of numbers and letters on the back of it that are unique to the vehicle, and can be used to track you as well. There are even automated cameras that can do this.

    Tracking a vehicle is easy, and always has been.

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  • [–] 19 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (1 child)

    However, the researchers found that these tire sensors also send a unique ID number in clear, unencrypted wireless signals, meaning that anyone nearby with a simple radio receiver can capture the signal, and recognize the same car again later

    Its not quite the same ball game. Sure its not great that the government can track easily with ALPRs, but this type of tracking is available to nearly anyone and could be used for significant crimes like stalking or human trafficking. It can also be done without a sightline of the car, unlike a camera system.

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  • [–] 18 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    License Plates, Vin Numbers clearly available on the dash, Tire Sensors, Bluetooth MAC, WIFI MAC, Cellular IDs for most even if you don't pay for the service.

    It's an interesting thing to point out, but we're mostly driving around with much higher power sensors than the pressure sensors.

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    [–] 18 points 8 months ago (1 child)

    They discovered a thing that everyone's known forever. Here's Bruce Schneier in 2008

    https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2008/04/tracking_vehicl.html

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  • [–] 17 points 8 months ago (7 children)

    Because each sensor broadcasts a fixed unique ID, the same car can be recognized repeatedly without reading a license plate. This makes TPMS-based tracking cheaper, harder to detect, and more difficult to avoid than camera-based surveillance, and therefore a stronger privacy threat.

    This seems like a real stretch.

    Cameras and automated license plate recognition are absurdly cheap at this point. And cameras have much greater range and reliability than whatever wireless signal interception this is, which the researchers have said is effective up to 50 meters.

    Meanwhile, from the office where I sit (which happens to be more than 50 meters above street level), I can see a highway and read the license plates of all the cars maybe 100-300m away. Plug in a cheap phone as a simple webcam and I can probably log all the license plates that drive by, maybe even correlate that to makes and models of vehicles for redundancy.

    And who's going to detect that I've got a cell phone camera pointed out of my office window, or that I'm running that type of image recognition on the phone?

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago (6 children)

    This seems like a real stretch.

    TPMS signals are too weak to read even 6 ft from the wheels.

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  • [–] 6 points 8 months ago (4 children)

    No they aren't. Out of curiosity I setup an rtlsdr and connected it via RTL-HAOS to my home assistant server.

    The antenna is in the middle of my house and over the last month I have logged over 200 different tire pressure sensor id's

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  • [–] 4 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    Yeah, I don't know what the range is for picking these signals up, but I know that the detections just scroll on and on on my laptop's screen when there is any traffic near my house.

    I never realized how chatty the world is on the radio spectrum until playing with one of these. From my house, I can see reports from half a dozen water meters (several reporting leaks), readings from wireless weather stations, signals from certain types of remotes, location data from aircraft, and of course bluetooth and wifi signals from phones and homes. The real trick in using this for tracking would be in filtering out all of the information you aren't interested in.

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  • [–] 5 points 8 months ago (1 child)

    Yeah this is something a well trained neural network would make simple though. So long as you have the processing power, and enough storage.

    I'd imagine you'd be able to purchase some identifying information from data brokers and eventually link ids to people or families.

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  • [–] 2 points 8 months ago

    Yes and no, I think. It isn't really huge amounts of data, and the patterns aren't super complex, so a neural network would pick up a lot. But, given how far the signals travel, the intermittent nature of the signals, and how little they can initially be associated with a particular vehicle, I think in most environments associating a particular set of signals with a particular car would require some human field work. Sure, there are circumstances where automated pairing would be trivial (like at a toll booth), but catching signals in the wild and processing by neural net alone might be ok for analyzing traffic patterns while not being enough for surveillance.

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago

    Yep, through misunderstanding I left rtl_433 auto addition switched on for over a year.
    I think I ended up with over 9000 unique tpms entries.
    Clearing them out from MQTT was a pain in the backside, too!

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  • [–] -1 points 8 months ago

    Thank you. Nobody is tracking your car from the fucking tpms sensors, they'll just use ur phone or GPS for God's sake 😂 hell if u put tpms sensors in backwards that's enough for the car not to read them. Another nothing burger.

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  • [–] 14 points 8 months ago (5 children)

    Jokes on them, those tire pressure sensors are the first thing I don't replace. I just visually check my tires and put a pressure gauge on them if they look suspect.

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  • [–] 3 points 8 months ago (3 children)

    As someone who has gotten a flat and not noticed until the tire was destroyed multiple times, I love TPMS systems. They save me money in the long run as the tire can be patched instead of replaced.

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago (2 children)

    How can you not feel it driving? That is kind of scary that you are that absent minded while driving.

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  • [–] 12 points 8 months ago (1 child)

    Flock in a few months: “introducing a license plate reader that doesn’t need to see the license plate. The magnet leaf you got on Amazon to get through red light cameras won’t be enough to fool our dystopian surveillance system anymore”

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  • [–] 11 points 8 months ago

    Wait till you see how many Bluetooth devices still do this. Or better yet, Ant+.

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  • [–] 10 points 8 months ago (7 children)

    TIL that these sensors transmitted via a wireless signal rather than being hardwired. I've never heard of them needing to be replaced due to dead batteries.

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  • [–] 9 points 8 months ago (3 children)

    The batteries last about 10 years.

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago (2 children)

    Much less when you live in a cold climate, or they get corroded from road salt.

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago (1 child)

    If road salt is getting into your tires, and then into the sealed battery in your TPMS.. you got other bigger issues. Maybe make sure you have all your valve cap isn't broken or missing?

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago

    It didn't happen to me, my car doesn't have TPMS sensors, but a buddy of mine had the cap on his valve stem corrode. The corrosion borked the entire valve stem, and he didn't find out until he went to get his summer tires put on. It didn't leak, but the place charged him some $ because it was a pain to remove and replace.

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  • [–] 27 points 8 months ago (8 children)

    Dude, my car has GPS and a 4G internet connection as well as my android phone and my work required iPhone ... In a world like this, Tyre sensors are probably not required to track me.

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  • [–] 3 points 8 months ago (1 child)

    It also had a numberplate, I assume?

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  • [–] 3 points 8 months ago

    The point on this is the cars are broadcasting the numbers. Imagine your license plate including a loud speaker that shouted it's number while the car was running. Tracking via plate requires line of sight. Tracking it in an automated way requires a good high speed camera, text analysis computer vision to log the vehicles, and storage for all of the images. In contrast, this signal is a repeating unencrypted broadcast. I could build a Raspberry Nano device that I can sit next to an intersection and capture the numbers of every vehicle that drives by. It is also just presumably storing the number and time, so years of tracking data could be managed with a gig or two of storage.

    This is absolutely a threat, and I am surprised it is not actively exploited by companies like Walmart to track every vehicle which drives by their stores and enters their parking lots. Hell, Amazon has enough vehicles out driving around that they could pretty effectively generate profiles for every vehicle in a town just by equipping their trucks with scanners and compiling the data into a behavior analysis system. Every car which drives past is read and stored. It is truly worrying.

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  • [–] 10 points 8 months ago (4 children)

    On the other hand, my 21 year old vehicle has none of it, and my GrapheneOS phone isn't tracking me either. We didn't all just give up like you did.

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  • [–] 10 points 8 months ago

    I spoke with my landlord about removing power to the home security cameras, because they were Ring. He obliged my request, but I later discovered that he (in private) regards my preference as that of a rebellious teenager in need of a cause. I had to let that sink in… I’m a rebel without a cause because I don’t sip from the same koolaid as he does. Wow.

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  • [–] 2 points 8 months ago

    Maybe I should've paid >10.000 in spares plus labour for a car I originally spend 21.000 for 8 years ago to buy diesel for for about 2€ per liter rather than switching to an ev for the privilege of ne being tracked rather than "giving up".

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  • [–] 2 points 8 months ago

    GPS in itself does not do anything, as it does not send, only receive. but even for mobile data, on your phone you have the choice to turn on airplane mode to disable communications. on your car, there's nothing like it.

    also, arguably iphones are more private than any internet connected car.

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  • [–] 51 points 8 months ago (4 children)

    Your license plate can also be used to track you

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  • [–] 24 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    You are correct, the only thing worth mentioning is when the laws were created/written it did not account for someone creating a database that is easily searchable/queried to infer all these extra habits of people.

    Its one thing visually seeing someone over and over walk or drive by your house while you sit on your porch. It's another thing to now know where they came from and where they went if you were able to sit on every porch at the same time in a town or city.

    This is why police tails need to be granted by a judge, but a interconnected network of cameras at the moment does not recieve the same scrutiny.

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  • [–] 7 points 8 months ago (1 child)

    I think part of why the cameras don't have such scrutiny is the city often has signs stating they use the cameras and will list their locations. This gives a somewhat implied consent from the driver, idk if it holds up in court but its similar to a sign at a store saying you're on CCTV. The sign doesn't say the CCTV could be used to track and monitor you but its implied.

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  • [–] 3 points 8 months ago*

    True, though CCTV or Closed Circuit Television used to be "fully local" and "closed". Tapes and recordings were only available or accessible to the property or person in most situations being recorded over older recordings.

    Newer tech now is interconnected with companies trying to infer extra information from full databases of recordings from multiple different locations all around a town or city, or state.

    CCTV used to be like a security guard sitting on a lawn chair. Where modern security cameras/systems are like having a personal tail following you all day and night.

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  • [–] 9 points 8 months ago

    They mention this in the article. The difference is that since the tire sensor sends out an RF signal, direct line of sight isn't necessary. You could throw a tracker up on a roof and grab signals from a block over.

    The missing part may be tying that signal to a specific car, but say your car gets pulled over - they could read your tires' sensor ID and compare it to where they captured it and bam! Now you're fucked.

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  • [–] 8 points 8 months ago

    Theres a spy device in your pocket.

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  • [–] 14 points 8 months ago (5 children)

    All these "unintentional" tracking devices begin to look intentional.

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  • [–] 3 points 8 months ago (4 children)

    Build a large enough catalogue of bulk data and anything can be used to track you.

    We bought "It's just so we can catch the terrorists!" hook, line, and sinker post-9/11.

    But when "terrorism" is redefined as "making people in power upset," we're in big trouble.

    So don't say anything rude about Donald Trump or the FBI will seek you out:

    https://invidious.perennialte.ch/watch?v=QS4bVx74nxU

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago (3 children)

    I never bought it, I was raising immortal hell then. But as a collective, yes we did, and as a collective, we're sitting around moaning instead of doing something, anything, effective.

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  • [–] -1 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    True, but your implication that I'm not doing enough while I'm sitting here complaining is just as well-served to the mirror.

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  • [–] 7 points 8 months ago (4 children)

    I mean- anything that communicates wirelessly could be used to track an owner/user of a thing.. Is it likely? No, but is it possible someone puts radios under the pavement at intersections to log TPMS sensors? Sure- fuck now I'm messing with my own head. Never mind.

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  • [–] 3 points 8 months ago (3 children)

    It seems easier to set up a camera and scan the license plate for identification instead of using radios for logging TPMS sensors.

    Would it be an advantage to identify a car by logging the TPMS sensors?

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  • [–] 2 points 8 months ago* (2 children)

    It would certainly be of interest to know the "where" and "when" of where someone is - to FLOCK or the government. I don't like where this is going in my brain.

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  • [–] 12 points 8 months ago (6 children)

    Yeah, I dont have any, nice try

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago (3 children)

    Unfortunately, I do. And they lock you in to licensed vendors just for your seasonal tyre change.

    Looks like my next car is going to be an antique.

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  • [–] 2 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    Wonder what kind of car you have, because my last 2 cars had a procedure to train/program a new TPMS, and some cars (according to Google) will automatically learn new sensors after about 20 minutes of driving.

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  • [–] 5 points 8 months ago (6 children)

    My truck hasn’t been able to communicate with my tire pressure sensors for years, I’m not worried about mine.

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  • [–] -1 points 8 months ago (5 children)

    Your car insurance might be interested to know this fact.

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  • [–] 9 points 8 months ago

    They would be. That's why you don't tell them. If you're treating your insurance company as your friend not an adversary, you probably don't understand how their profits grow year over year.

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  • [–] 3 points 8 months ago (3 children)
  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago (2 children)

    This was a tip to OP, in case he wasn't aware. Insurances will use any pretext to weasel out of their contractual obligations.

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  • [–] 9 points 8 months ago (4 children)

    Jokes on them. My TPMS sensors died a while ago, and I haven't felt the need to fix it.

    Now I'm a ghost! /s

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (2 children)

    The rfid tag is probably still good and whatever is on the receiving end isn't working.

    Apparently it's an active system these days.

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