It seems kind of primitive to have power lines just hanging on poles, right?

Bit unsightly too

Is it just a cost issue and is it actually significant when considering the cost of power loss on society (work, hospital, food, etc)?

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[–] 124 points 9 months ago (7 children)

It's roughly 5-7 times as expensive per km to bury the cables. It's mainly a cost issue.

It makes sense in dense areas, it does not make sense everywhere. Critical infrastructure has backup power anyway because digging does not solve all reliability issues.

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  • [–] 17 points 9 months ago (1 child)

    Here in Aroostook county Maine I can tell you I have yet to see anywhere that didn’t have everything on telephone poles. Not that I can recall anyway.

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  • [–] 8 points 9 months ago

    Converting existing (and i hope working) infra has its own problems too and unless its absolutelly necessary it often gets sidelined.

    You cant just dig a trench and drop the lines there. You need to make sure roadsides have enough space and if at any point it would require purchasing or getting permit from land owners it will get quickly complicate. Especially if there are many different owners on the stretch.

    There needs to also be plans and precautions to secure that the electricity wont be cut for too long time during the work.

    Also the road sides migh need to be cleaned from any vegetation and stones that might be big enough to be problem, not to mention the road it self might need additional work if its badly kept or if they need to widen it and that all rounds back to making sure there is enough space.

    Its much easier to build underground cables from the get go, than change infrastructure that was build with telephone poles in mind.

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  • [–] 3 points 9 months ago

    Though in development of an area you probably already dig up the ground for other utilities, so in that case it is relatively easy and cheap to also put electricity lines in there too. But retrofitting in an already developed area is really expensive. So it becomes more a question of the default.

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  • [–] 1 point 9 months ago (2 children)

    Where did you get your numbers?

    I found 2-3x and it's quoating it as $5-$15 per foot vs $10-$25

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  • [–] 2 points 9 months ago (1 child)
  • [–] 2 points 9 months ago

    The second one has a link to an actual study on pricing. That study indicates directed buried is twice as expensive.

    It's also has numbers on tunnel buried which is five times more expensive. Which makes sense but also means there is now a tunnel.

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  • [–] 38 points 9 months ago (4 children)

    Because it's much harder to bury things above ground.

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  • [–] 23 points 9 months ago

    physics. cost.

    lived a lot of places, some of which (like here in PNW) have neighborhood buried cables. It's lovely, and hella reliable. We don't lose power in windstorms or floods or snow.

    It is expensive. And not appropriate for all places - for example, places with high water tables won't be able to do it, like Louisiana - you can't keep the water out year round even with a billion pumps. Also hard to do in places with bedrock near the surface for expense reasons.

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  • [–] 22 points 9 months ago (9 children)

    Maintenance, modification, assessment, and initial installation are all more difficult. And yes that means more expensive, and yes the cost difference is significant. It is more resource and personnel intense to work underground lines than overhead.

    When it comes to damage from weather, while underground lines can be slightly more resilient they are much, much more of a pain to assess and and fix. A good line crew can put up a new pole in about an hour. It takes a lot longer to run underground digging equipment.

    In some places underground lines are run, of course, because for various reasons the associated downsides are deemed worth it. However when you're looking at a whole infrastructure, you want easy to service, fast to install, and cost efficient.

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  • [–] [S] 4 points 9 months ago (8 children)

    I guess unless you plan the community to have underground lines to begin with it’s just a no go?

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  • [–] 12 points 9 months ago (7 children)

    It can be done, but the people paying for it need a compelling reason. Just saying "It's kind of primitive ya know." isn't enough.

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  • [–] [S] 2 points 9 months ago (6 children)

    Well there are many compelling reasons but they all seem to be countered with “but that’s expensive”

    So I think it’s fair to say it’s primitive because the reason for use is it’s the cheapest solution to the problem of power delivery

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  • [–] 3 points 9 months ago* (5 children)

    but they all seem to be countered with “but that’s expensive”

    And time consuming and more difficult to assess, maintain, modify, and install. While increasing the underground footprint which makes it more difficult for other underground utilities and construction.

    Well there are many compelling reasons

    And when the reasons are good enough the lines go underground. Otherwise yes the cheap and easy way is better as the baseline, because paying ~10x more and taking much longer to install a system that is harder to work with for no good reason is stupid.

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  • [–] 1 point 9 months ago (4 children)

    I mostly agree with you.

    Underground footprint is kind of flimsy reason tough, because if the grid and the infra around it is well designed, in the plans should allready be a plan how to expand if other utilities are needed later.

    Also enviroment where the lines are going to be build is important. Close to surface bedrock or soil with lots of big rocks. Overhead of course. Going trough or next to forest in area where winds may fell trees or snow packed on the branches may bend trees. Underground is the smart choise.

    Also while underground is slower and more expensive to fix, its rare that multiple lines break at the same time. Most areas has backups upon backups, so even if one line gets damaged it does not mean large amount of households are going to be without power. Overhangs on the other hand are more on the mercy of nature and big storms are more likely to break same line from multiple points or break multiple lines.

    Also broken overheads are more dangerous when broken and fixing them is more precarious.

    Both have good and bad things.

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  • [–] 2 points 9 months ago (2 children)

    Underground lines, when damaged can also be dangerous. I’ve known of multiple dogs in may area who’ve died instantly just stepping on top utility access points that become electrified due to damaged underground lines. For overhead lines, if it’s not down, it’s generally not a safety hazard to the general public and if it is down, vast majority know to steer well clear of them and report the damage.

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  • [–] 1 point 9 months ago (1 child)

    Wow. Needed to google those dog strories. Atleast the ones i found were because live wire was connecting to sewergrate due the degration or damage to the lines. It was hard to find any proper knowledge why that happened, but what i know about ground lines and safety regulations those things should be impossible to happen if the lines were build following regulations (at least by my countrys standards, cable must be dug deep enough, that frost does not effect to ground and it needs to be insulated. There needs to be also atleast 20cm or 7.8 inches of fine sand, or fine rockles dirt around it as a safety layer. So live wire should never be able to contact cement or any metal parts even if the cable is broken and soil is wet)

    There was also incredible sad story about 15 dogs dying after overhead line dropped in to a kennel.

    Im sorry i was little unclear. The safety part was mostly about doing repairs. Where i live number one reason for the lines to get damaged are fallen trees, be it by wind or packed snow. Cleaning windfall trees is difficult by it self as the trees are often tangled and if the tree is in tension when somebody cuts it wrong it, the tree might swing with an force enough to break a neck. Add to that mess tangled wires, constant hurry to fix it and the likelyhood that the wire that needs repairing is on the middle of nothing.

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  • [–] 1 point 9 months ago*

    Yeah, my story is purely anecdotal, plenty of people have died from downed lines, especially instantaneous failures in high weather events. just not in my limited experience. Just want to give some counterpoints as the failure cases can be silent but deadly to the general public, unlike most other underground utilities.

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  • [–] 21 points 9 months ago (1 child)

    Cost, difficulty, and harder to maintaince. Want to add new coax cable? Sure toss it up. New housing being? Split it. Fiber, yep throw where the coax is. Etc. (its still high voltage, so regulations for safety obviaouly play a role here too).

    Underground? Is there rock too hard to drill there? A gas line? Did we just cut an active internet line or just some junk? Tree roots? Will it containate a water table? Will it shift and break the line here? Great we have conduit, is it broken? Leakage? Big enough to handle a high gauge for an upgrade?

    i say this as man in love with a good tunnel and conduit. Trust me when i say, yes we ought to do it in general, but also yes is a pain in the ass.

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  • [–] 55 points 9 months ago (44 children)

    sweden hasn't had residential power lines on poles since like the 70's. when i visited north america in 2008 i was shocked by the aerial rats' nests everywhere.

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  • [–] 2 points 9 months ago (4 children)

    That's because of the harsh climate though? Cheaper to pay more for digged cables than constantly repair aerial lines? At least it alleviates the cost.

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  • [–] 1 point 9 months ago (3 children)

    i mean we still have aerial lines for high voltage.

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  • [–] 1 point 9 months ago (2 children)

    Sure, but the cheap wooden low voltage that got wrecked in storms are gone.

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  • [–] -2 points 9 months ago (15 children)
  • [–] 10 points 9 months ago* (4 children)

    idk where that place pulls from but i pay $.08/kWh. when i lived further north it was $0.02.

    there was a period where the prices went to what you quoted but that was in connection to the nord stream sabotage where germany's prices skyrocketed and ours were dragged up along with them.

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  • [–] 2 points 9 months ago (3 children)
  • [–] 5 points 9 months ago (2 children)

    okay? i'm just checking my power bills.

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  • [–] 4 points 9 months ago (1 child)

    That may be true. I'm just telling you that if so, it doesn't reflect Sweden as a whole.

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  • [–] 6 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

    sweden is split into four "electricity zones", from north to south. the prices seem to match those in zone 4, in the very very south.

    Edit:

    https://elen.nu/

    here is the current price for each zone in öre/kWh (an öre is 1/100th of a krona). divide by 10 and you get cents, ish.

    for reference the current spot price when converted is $0.12/kWh. more than i pay but i have a fixed kWh price.

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  • [–] 17 points 9 months ago* (4 children)

    The price of electricity in a country usually has nothing to do with whether power lines are run above or below the ground. Very often a large part of your electricity price is determined by taxes and subsidies for example. And in my country (the Netherlands) the suppliers of electricity are different companies than the ones responsible for the power network too. Like Sweden we haven't had residential power lines running above ground for half a century or so, it's pretty uncommon in (Western?) Europe.

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  • [–] 13 points 9 months ago (2 children)

    Infrastructure is a huge part of electricity prices.

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  • [–] 5 points 9 months ago (1 child)

    Well yeah, it's quite easy to keep your energy prices low when you

    • have a wealth of hydrocarbon sources in-country
    • supplement them by bombing other nations until they give you there's
    • don't give a flying fuch about the planet
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  • [–] -4 points 9 months ago (20 children)

    Area of Sweden 73,860 sq mi

    Area of the USA 3,531,839 sq mi

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  • [–] 15 points 9 months ago (1 child)

    Population of Sweden: 10.6 million

    Population of the USA: 340.1 million

    So the population density is very similar and I therefore don't understand what you're getting at.

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  • [–] 2 points 9 months ago

    Americans loooooooooooooooove pointing out at their population density as a thought-terminating cliché although it's very rarely relevant to any discussion.

    The size of your continent does not influence the size of your metro areas, dipshits. LA isn't the way it is because Wyoming is empty, LA is the way it is because a bunch of dumbasses decided that local mass transit and terraced housing should be outlawed and bulldozed in order to fuck over African-Americans communities.

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  • [–] 2 points 9 months ago (17 children)

    okay? we don't bury high-voltage lines, if that's what you're implying.

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  • [–] 3 points 9 months ago (5 children)

    It's easy when nearly all of your population lives in a third of your landmass mostly in the south. We're still talking about residential. Most of our cities and towns are also not walkable if that gives you an estimate of how spread out we are even in urban areas here.

    Besides it took laws for power companies to get the last rural communities and families. I remember my grandparents talking about it. Honestly the better investment would be putting up solar panels cut off from the grid with battery banks to cover the most rural over here.

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  • [–] 1 point 9 months ago (4 children)

    all the power generation is in the north

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  • [–] 2 points 9 months ago (3 children)

    I thought we were talking about residential lines, not transmission lines.

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  • [–] 1 point 9 months ago (2 children)

    then why does geographical location matter?

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  • [–] 4 points 9 months ago (1 child)
  • [–] 1 point 9 months ago*

    is there supposed to be an image in your comment? anyway, some more specific numbers then.

    the stockholm region, the most populated area of sweden, is a bit less than twice the size of the city of houston TX, with about the same population of 2.3 million people. but the population density of the area is about 1/4th that of houston, at 380/km^2^ compared to 1400.

    meanwhile the norrbotten region, the most sparsely populated area, is just above alaska in population density.

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  • [–] 3 points 9 months ago (10 children)

    I mean there's a cost per mile to lay cable underground, and that cost per customer goes down when the population density is higher, which it is in all of Europe compared to the US.

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  • [–] 3 points 9 months ago (9 children)

    the us has higher population density than sweden.

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  • [–] 6 points 9 months ago* (8 children)

    In certain areas. But most of the us has a rather low density. You don't see above ground lines in most US cities.

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  • [–] 1 point 9 months ago (6 children)

    I really don't understand that argument. So is most of the US not connected to the sewers? Since these are also dug underground. If you already dig trenches for the sewer system, then you can also place electricity lines for relatively cheap. Though that was not done in the US and retrofitting is a big cost, usually only done, when you need to dig either way (e.g. for modernizing the sewer system). So its more about the default and if a country can take the opportunity when sewers get modernized

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  • [–] 3 points 9 months ago (3 children)

    Yeah, there's quite a bit of residential on septic tanks here. Incorporated towns is usually the line where public sewer exists. Before you ask, not every home here is on municipal water either nor natural gas. I remember a family growing up that got water deliveries for their cistern if their well ever ran dry. My childhood home had a giant propane tank for our gas appliances and a septic tank system because we lived on the other side of an interstate highway even though we lived "within the city limits". I remember dad always saying it was difficult for the utilities to bore under the interstate to get the handful of homes (maybe 50 of us?) in the city limits on the other side. More homes in the USA have access to power than municipal water, moreso than natural gas, and much moreso than public sewer. Like I said elsewhere, we are really spread out. This guy really puts it into perspective

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  • [–] 1 point 9 months ago (2 children)

    my family's house is in a village of around seven households. we have our own well and septic tank. power lines are still underground.

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  • [–] 1 point 9 months ago* (1 child)

    The other half of this equation is for a bunch of rural power here in the US are handled by co-ops. So the people paying for the infrastructure directly are same people that pay the power bill. If the people don't want to pay for it, they aren't going to build it out. It's why I believe the best solution for these homes would be to solar panels and battery banks.

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  • [–] 14 points 9 months ago (6 children)

    You don't pay for all the space between poles. Its also cheaper ad quicker to stand a pole than to build a manhole.

    It would be better for everyone if was all underground. It is purely cost with a smidgen of time efficiency.

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  • [–] 2 points 9 months ago (5 children)

    It would save money in the long run though.

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  • [–] 1 point 9 months ago (1 child)

    You would pay thousands for each meter of duct built including resurfacing whereas you would likely stand two poles with the same distance for less than a grand.

    Take it that overhead is more likely to cause future issues, they would need to be significantly more for that to be the case. Where this comes in is regulations on SLAs and fines, loss of service costs. But on a pure cost basis it likely would take a long time for underground to balance out.

    Companies also dont care and would prefer to lower build costs at the risk of future operational costs

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  • [–] 1 point 9 months ago

    It would definitely depend on circumstances on this one. In california it would pay for itself with less fires alone. But all areas would have less service costs fixing them after storms. My power just went out a few weeks back here, and last year north a ways all the power got knocked out, some for weeks, in an ice storm that left .5 to over 1 inch of ice on stuff or something.

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  • [+] 28 points 9 months ago (8 children)
  • [–] 20 points 9 months ago (2 children)

    Power lines need way less maintenance if you bury them.

    Orders of magnitude less maintenance.

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  • [–] [S] 7 points 9 months ago (4 children)

    I was in a suburb once that had the lines running in an accessible plastic rectangle running between the sidewalk and road and it seemed pretty brilliant

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  • [–] 12 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (3 children)

    Which is a solution for a limited area where the extra cost and longer install time might be deemed worthwhile, but when you want to run miles upon miles of lines then it is less feasible.

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  • [–] [S] 4 points 9 months ago (2 children)

    I think it’s probably reasonable to run the large transmission lines open because they’re huge and easier to landscape but most people live in dense suburbs or cities (where they’re already underground)

    And most dense suburbs just have their power polls waiting precariously under trees which requires additional tree maintenance and is expensive to fix after a storm

    I agree there are places it wouldn’t make sense but it seems like nearly all the places where it would make sense still havnt bothered (cost, I know)

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  • [–] 9 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

    In a dense urban environment you are wanting retrofitted lines run through terrain already full of concrete, water lines, and other urban features. That would take a lot of coordination in design and still likely miss things (which means more time and money on redesigns). It also means a long installation time which means extended disruption to the area.

    These sorts of underground lines are easier to run in totally fresh new construction, but then again, it runs into servicing issues and extra expense.

    is expensive to fix after a storm

    Assessing and fixing underground lines is much harder, more expensive, and disruptive.

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  • [–] 37 points 9 months ago (4 children)

    Don't make the mistake of looking at one region and generalising to a universal. Where are you looking at?

    Here in Switzerland practically everything <1kV is buried.
    For high voltage lines they have only built one section to experiment so far. It's pretty expensive, heats the ground a bit and blocks water with all the concrete, so it's not so clear if it's a good choice for agriculture happening above.

    I've wondered a lot why they don't bury more infrastructure in hurricane regions in the US for example.

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  • [–] 18 points 9 months ago*

    It sure is frustrating as an American to be like "why is x not done this other way that's better and makes more sense?" And for the almost universal answer to be "we do it that way in "

    Not frustrated at you, frustrated at the US

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  • [–] [S] 2 points 9 months ago

    I’ve seen them buried in some hurricane prone areas here but not many of them. I don’t think they’d need to bury most of the high voltage lines as those are easy to maintain above ground but there are a lot of disaster prone areas that could benefit from residential power being buried locally

    So yes we’d need to be smart about choosing the appropriate places for it but nearly all the places that could use it dont because $$

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  • [–] 25 points 9 months ago (7 children)

    My city sits on a filled in swamp.

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  • [–] 17 points 9 months ago (5 children)

    My entire state if we're honest.

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  • [–] 6 points 9 months ago (4 children)
  • [–] 7 points 9 months ago (3 children)

    I would assume. That's where I am.

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  • [–] 5 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (2 children)

    I grew up far from it, in a vastly different terrain and climate, and I've lived here most of my life. But I remember having a cartoon book as a kid that depicted a house in a swamp (I think it may have been one of the books about The Woozles),l.

    This memory resurfaced in 2024 when I had to drive from Houston TX to Galliano LA. It was swampy to say the least, and one particular view from somewhere along I10 (or maybe it was route 90, I don't remember where) looked exactly like in that book. Many of my fellow countrymen have accidentally hit a moose while driving. I'm the only one I know who has run over an alligator.

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  • [–] 3 points 9 months ago (1 child)

    How do you survive hitting a moose? I feel like that's equivalent to hitting a brick wall.

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  • [–] 4 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

    It's pretty dangerous, yes. But since mooses are so tall, you usually hit the legs, and the beast comes in through the windshield. Duck, and it'll pass over you. However, they might then start to flail and kick you from the backseat out of panic.

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