I've seen alot of calls for violence in America. Whether it be directed at the president or Federal officers, many people are advocating for an escalation in response to the current situation.

And believe me, I do understand. what I see happening in America is horrifying. But all I am imploring is to really think about what your asking for. Because you can't put the genie in the bottle once you've left it out.

If you're really gung-ho about it, go and ask a Veteran of Iraq or Afghanistan about it and see what they think. If anyone will know about it they will.

I am going to link a YouTube Playlist. Its the Associated Press Archives of the Bosnian-Serbian war. Because THAT is what will happen if wide scale violence breaks out. Except what will happen in America will be a hundred times worse.

The Bosnian war was pretty much broken up along ethnic lines. "Well it's going to be Conservative VS. Liberal" you say. Except it won't be. It will be anyone having a grudge against someone going after them.

ALOT of personal animosity will be taken out in the first few weeks I feel.

And I think the Seige of Sarajavo will be writ large in American cities across the country. Imagine having to dodge sniper fire on your way to get to your job at Wendy's.

Because that's the other thing no one is thinking about. You are still going to have to make a living while this is all going to be happening. And the cost of everything will skyrocket. Shipping will probably have to be escorted from place to place because people will be stealing or even blockading locations because they're "damn dirty libs" or "Fascist Conservatives" Fresh produce will become a thing of the past.

Canada and Mexico will close their borders due to all the refugee's trying to cross. so if you thinking of doing it, do it the moment everything pops off because otherwise you won't get in.

Basically Civil war is going to the worst thing to happen in America in a long time. and the only good that comes out of it will be Americans will finally have first hand experience of real war torn violence. And maybe that will hopefully last for another two hundred years or so.

If America even survives the outcome that is.

top 82 comments

sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] 190 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (6 children)

It's worthwhile you mention Sarajevo, and in reference to that I will post this tidbit posted by a MetaFilter user in 2009 regarding their experience in the siege of Sarajevo. I have it bookmarked and post it from time to time where it seems appropriate. The reality is though, you're correct, Americans by and large don't know what they're asking for.

Well, unlike the majority of you (I assume), I actually lived several years in a period of savagery and killing, during which nothing - food, water, electricity, phone, clothing, sense of safety, school, the ability to go out in public, etc - was available, except during totally unpredictable, brief and sporadic occasions.

Of those who couldn't leave my city, Sarajevo:

Some people (very few) were prepared for what they thought would be the "long haul" - this tended to be a couple of months. These people were widely seen as lunatics and dangerously pessimistic ones at that.

Most people were not at all prepared. This included my family. Many of those - like my family - considered the idea of "preparation" to be an affront to the decency we felt most people possessed. Were we wrong? Well, I don't know. We suffered greatly; my parents were killed. But speaking only for myself, I never felt I cheapened my soul by betting on calamity. Today, that still feels like it's worth something.

But here's the main point: "Preparing" for the disaster really didn't do anyone much good. Those who "prepared" ate a little better for a while. They stayed warmer for a few extra days. They enjoyed the radio for a while longer (via batteries.) But in the end, they ended up hungry, cold and bored too, just like the rest of us. Guns and weapons helped no one directly and were even of little to no use in the defense of Sarajevo, since they were toys compared to the shells, bombs and high-powered armaments of the attacking forces. The worst parts of war were psychological - the fear, anxiety, boredom, loneliness, paranoia, bad dreams. Respite from those things came with sharing food with a neighbor, finding a piece of clothing that would fit someone you knew, commiserating with others in your position, figuring out how to make make-up from brick or french fries from wheat paste and spreading this newly-acquired war knowledge around the mahala.

We knew who had extra food and supplies. For the most part, they weren't attacked or hassled or bothered. Contrary to what these survivalists say, those in dire times generally hold on to their personal sense of pride even more than they do in normal times. I'd take a bite of a friend's salad without bothering to ask in normal times. I'd never have done that in wartime, no matter how hungry I was.

Within the domain of those trapped in the city, civility greatly increased.

You often hear how Holocaust survivors felt guilt at surviving. Well, during war, that was a feeling everyone was aware of - people started dying right away (my parents were killed near the start of the siege, for instance) - and there was a palpable enough common sense of karma to make everyone into good Samaritans. None of us understood why we survived while others didn't. I shared food when I had it, even though I often knew I wouldn't have a crumb the next day. Which was no big achievement, because nearly everyone did the same.

Those who'd prepared, well, the majority of them shared their food and whatever else they had as soon as someone else was clearly in need. I can't swear it, but I think they felt a little foolish to have been so self-obsessed, and giving away that stuff might have lessened that feeling. There were a few people who hoarded things until they ran out of stuff - eventually everybody ran out of anything worth hoarding - and they soon became wishful beggars like the rest of us. Again, I can't swear it, but I hear stories, and it seems that these people suffer from post-war trauma, guilt and nightmares more than the rest of us.

Those survivalists, I feel sorry for them. It's no way to live.

posted by Dee Xtrovert at 9:33 PM on January 28, 2009

  • source
  • hideshow 6 child comments
  • [–] 35 points 9 months ago

    A great read, thank you.

    This exemplifies why it's so important to learn how to grow your own food. If you're serious about "prepping" don't hoard tins of beans, learn how to grow beans.

    Make your soil fertile now, learn the skills now, because it can take 3 years for a piece of land to become fertile enough to provide good harvests. It takes time to learn what you're doing. It takes time to get equipment, seeds, compost.

    A network of small vegetable gardens can go a long way in helping reduce starvation.

    Is it a silver bullet that guarantees survival? Of course not. Your crops can fail, your garden sabotaged, damaged, or robbed. But does it increase your, and your community's chances? Absolutely!

    Start small, have fun, learn, and grow!

    https://beehaw.org/c/greenspace

    https://lemmy.world/c/gardening

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 9 points 9 months ago (1 child)

    I'm in Sweden. War is almost unthinkable. I have prepared my basement with shelf-stable food and fuel that could feed my apartment complex for a month. If something happens, it's for my neighbors, not just for my family.

    But a month is nothing.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • [–] 89 points 9 months ago (3 children)

    If you’re really gung-ho about it, go and ask a Veteran of Iraq or Afghanistan about it and see what they think. If anyone will know about it they will.

    My uncle that served in Iraq still wakes up screaming in the night. He's a shell of the man he used to be. Another vet my age I knew was absolutely erratic after serving. He couldn't hold a job and ended up homeless and assaulted someone for their spot under a bridge.

    My whole family bears the scars of the PTSD from what my grandfather saw from WWII. He also woke up screaming for years afterward.

  • source
  • hideshow 3 child comments
  • [–] 51 points 9 months ago (2 children)

    I had an old buddy who served in Vietnam. One time I asked him what it was like to kill someone. I'll never forget his answer.

    "You know, when you've got your rifle trained on somebody, there for a split second you've got the power of God in your hands. You get to decide if that person lives or dies. Nobody should have that kind of power. I only wish I had known that before I had done things that I couldn't undo."

    He said he still had nightmares all the time, even 45 years later.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • [–] 36 points 9 months ago (2 children)

    More like This War of Mine, maybe.

    A game so depressing I stopped playing.

  • source
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • [–] 35 points 9 months ago (1 child)

    Im glad you've said this. Before I saw The Death of Yugoslavia, I honestly believed that modern warfare was clean, clinical, and restricted to willing combatants. That the Geneva Conventions, various constitutional statements, and human honour and decency were a part of modern wars. At least since Vietnam.

    No. I was disabused of that notion by this documentary. Yes, I agree, the BBC shouldn't have the last word on a war in Eastern Europe. The BBC probably shouldn't have the last word on anything. However, they did happen to have the first word — to me — on the importance of understanding how modern wars get started, how they progress, and chillingly, why they don't end. It's a sad, slow, solemn march into oblivion.

  • source
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • [–] 6 points 9 months ago

    Terror is a part of large scale wars (wars that aren't a few little skirmishes), so civilian population gets bombed (bcs terror is effective, it damages morale & puts pressure on politics to surrender & end fighting). USA is no stranger to that.

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 66 points 9 months ago (2 children)

    The first U.S. civil war never really ended, it has just gone into a long "cold" phase.

    Those times are ending.

  • source
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • [–] 31 points 9 months ago (5 children)

    I think the country splits into multiple nations before a true all out conflict. Maybe a 4 part split.

    Old South Northeast Some kind of Texas southern alliance with other states in the Louisiana purchase Northwest and Pacific coast.

  • source
  • hideshow 5 child comments
  • [–] 50 points 9 months ago (2 children)

    The problem with this idea is that it assumes that those areas are politically aligned. I highly doubt people in liberal areas like Austin are going to be okay with being lumped in with whatever happens in Texas and I am confident that the Native Americans in Oklahoma will never be okay with it.

    The divide in the US is largely rural vs urban not north vs south or east vs west anymore.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • [–] 5 points 9 months ago

    People tend to migrate during such events, that's what a refugee is. Restructurings like this often kill more people than they attract, but they do still attract them. And more still get fucked by bad luck. See: literally any country creating event, good or bad.

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 3 points 9 months ago*

    Yep, exactly.

    State borders don't represent the relevant people groups well at all.

    Go look at the greater Idaho movement to see basically exactly what I mean, a decade long drive to break the eastern counties of WA and OR off, and into joining Idaho.

    The other huge problem is this:

    Cities are generally like islands, need power, water, food, which typically comes from places outside the city.

    So you don't need to even seige them, you just cut the links, and they'll largely tear themselves apart.

    But the flip side of that is that they're also major logistics hubs and manufacturing centers, by and large... and, most stuff that gets produced outside a city has to go into a or at least near a city at some point before it can actually become something useful, or find an actual market.

    So its a kind of ... not quite MAD, but almost, more like mutually assured misery.

    One thing you can take away is that anyone, in any location during something like this, is going to benefit from being as autarkic and resourceful as they can be, at whatever scale makes sense in a particular situation.

    The big superstructures of society basically just break, and you, your buddies, your community, whatever, people with secondary backup plans, alternative economies, largely decoupled systems for providing the bare minimum + a few luxuries, thats what has a better chance of making it through something like this.

    Oh, along with that comes: Repair everything, the consumable model of 'stuff' is now an insane death trap, not a flex.

    Anything complex is unlikely to be easily, wholly replaced... makes a lot more sense to fix up shit, re use and clean up everything that can be reused and cleaned up safely.

    Oh right, and uh, kiss the idea of generally free and safe medium to long distance travel goodbye.

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 61 points 9 months ago (3 children)

    "Do Not Split"

    Learned about it from this episode of the Team Human podcast

    But what is happening in Hong Kong is they come up with a slogan, which is translated as Do Not Split, which is, we know that some people are willing to be confrontational with riot police.

    And when they are, that's going to cost the state in terms of not only resources, but it's going to cost the state in terms of political capital and support. And we know that there are some people who are not willing to do that. And we are going to abide by the protocol of Do Not Split, which means that we're not going to criticize them openly, and they're not going to criticize us openly.

    If we're the pacifists, we're not going to have them criticize us for being sort of like, I don't know, limpid or flaccid or not courageous or whatever. And we're not going to criticize them for being more confrontational. And the thing is that the support is also tacit.

    It's not like they have to come out and tell the media, oh, we approve of our more sort of confrontational colleagues. They just keep quiet. They just keep quiet.

    Understanding that a range of tactics is probably going to be necessary. Nobody really knows what's going to work. But if everybody's pushing back against a particularly violent state, then everybody's really on the same side.

  • source
  • hideshow 3 child comments
  • [–] 8 points 9 months ago

    Yes!

    I was just talking to my wife about, if not this idea, then the ramifications of splitting. We were discussing how someone like Putin can stay in power, or how I think it would be touchy to have joint protests against Trump in the U.S., even as his support falters across the board – because I couldn’t imagine republicans with morals, disaffected MAGA, democrats, and leftists on the same side of a picket line.

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 5 points 9 months ago

    i find the No Kings protests offputting primarily for their rejection of "Do Not Split". people around me attend them and i'm glad to see those people engaging in things, but they go on to say things like "at one point a group of 4 people in black bloc (one with a "medic" patch) tried to join the march but we walled them off".

    previous large scale protests i've been a part of had a natural flow to them: signs and chanting during the day, then as people start to head home it gets rowdier & some time well after dark it turns physical; repeat the next day.

    i'm a daytime protestor. but i never felt like my protests were being "taken over", or that those different groups were fighting for something incompatible with my own aims. there was space enough for me to find a place i was comfortable, and likewise for anyone with different tactics. you can't have a "mass" movement without having space for all those different masses.

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 27 points 9 months ago (1 child)

    I would prefer peace. But let's be frank, that isn't likely to happen, because the Trump Regime consists of people who don't value a peaceful, kind, and just world.

  • source
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • [–] 7 points 9 months ago

    The other hand of the issue is the Democrats have repeatedly failed to recognize and manage the necessary decline of capitalism. It's "necessary" because capitalism had globalized and essentially run out of land and people too exploit.

    Exploited countries will push (are pushing) back, and/or look for other options (China, etc). Because the Democratic party is a pro-capitalism party, they are unable to recognize this situation. Republicans recognize it and turn up the heat, both internally and externally. For a lot of (foolish) Americans, this looks like an appealing option.

    The democrats could sweep 2028, but it means the snapback is going to be even more intense in 2032 when they fail to govern.

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 24 points 9 months ago (3 children)

    In real life when you get hit, hiding behind cover does not regenerate your health and picking up health packs or eating food does nothing.

    Also most war will be 99% boredom and 1% sheer terror.

  • source
  • hideshow 3 child comments
  • [–] 6 points 9 months ago (2 children)

    of course not, you gotta eat a first aid kit

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • [–] 69 points 9 months ago (17 children)

    Not American, so feel free to stop reading.

    It's ridiculous to me how you yanks go from zero to a hundred like this. Either normality or civil war. Like there is no in between? You have an authoritarianism problem. So resist authoritarianism. What makes you think that the only way to resist is shooting people? Resistance is a spectrum, and you have barely started using democratic means to fight back (you just started electing democratic socialists), much less active procedural and institutional warfare (is Bernie demanding a vote for every procedural point requiring a vote? Are the Dems actually using any rat fucking tactic to make the state ungovernable? Are your local and state governments really resisting beyond making angry noises?). You have barely tried non violent resistance (not the same as peaceful!) but you're such a violent culture that you jump straight to military solutions. Wtf. Those come at the very end, if everything else has failed. Has it? Nowhere near. So this talk about civil war, is that really useful?

  • source
  • hideshow 17 child comments
  • [–] 17 points 9 months ago

    Whilst I agree, the problem lies with the individualism of the general population rather than the collective mindset. The backwards-ass government system (i.e. no opposition government, the bastardisation of the 3 branches etc. and the power hungry head-of-state vs a Parliamentary system for example), the extreme "state-first" mentality that then struggles when the Federal system comes down on it and the "divide and conquer" tactics of corporations with the support of successive right-leaning governments. A judicial system that corrupted by politics and trying to guess what a bunch of guys slave-owning white landowners 250 years ago would have thought is also very very very very very very very dumb. The law is meant to be blind - it's why the statue used to represent it wears a blindfold, holds a scale and a sword.

    The country is in need of a Civil Revolution rather than a civil war. Both sides are more similar than they realise, and generally want the same thing, and none seem to see the real enemy (CEOs, Billionaires etc.) due to all the propaganda.

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 16 points 9 months ago (6 children)

    The problem is that the steps between zero and a hundred are incremental rights which take decades to establish. If you are a non-American then you might have those steps already established, but currently the US does not. So once the status quo passes beyond the acceptable parameters the only possible solution is violence.

    Another user I spoke with asked about collective rebellion, union strikes, and general resistance, but these don't work if the infrastructure isn't already in place. You can't start a strike if you don't have a union and your co-workers don't agree, you can't take up arms without at least a state level rebellion, most protests are effectively meaningless, and unless you are willing to give up everything (job, family, and well being) then you'll never amount a significant resistance.

    For the most part people want to live their lives with the least amount of fucking up they can. So long as the republican's don't fuck up their shit too much they will keep their heads down and vote in the elections.

    Democrats and states both follow the same rules. They will try to counter the Republicans, but if that means a government shutdown with old people and the poor going without assistance then they are willing to cave. So far we aren't at the point where any US group is willing to make real sacrifice to make a change, such as a fighting, going without, or causing their family to suffer.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 6 child comments
  • You can’t start a strike if you don’t have a union and your co-workers don’t agree

    This is a major point that those outside of the US seem to miss, I think. The sheer depth of contempt for unions and unionization I've experienced is a massive barrier to organizing any significant resistance. I'm very certain a majority of US citizens are unaware of what a general strike even looks like. Corporate propaganda has very successfully vilified and diminished unions for a long time.

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 9 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (4 children)

    On the one hand yes you are behind on some kinds of labour organizing.

    On the other hand, it's not that simple.

    a) you have a very long history of minority organizing. Black Americans, Chicanos, indigenous people, and other minorities have survived for generations. It sounds like a leftie cliché, but you guys should really take leadership from them.

    b) you don't have the baggage that comes with entrenched left wing politics. There is a thing like too much left wing politicking. In Greece for example, land of spectacular antifa riots, the left is absolutely paralyzed and completely fragmented. Too much history, too many reasons to blame this or that left faction for what they did 10,20,30, sometimes 60 or more years ago. You have a chance to build on a green field.

    c) one thing you Americans actually have going for you is that you guys actually believe in democracy. You're true believers. It's a thing we in the rest of the world have always kind of being weirded out by you that you want to be electing judges and sherrifs and school boards etc. And you actually have this libertarian steak in you that's kind of interesting when it comes to resistance. You have so much democratic institutional hardware just lying around.

    d) you actually are close to some of the powerful economic structures, institutions, and pop culture centres in the planet. Anything you do will and already does reverberate globally in ways that others don't.

    So, while you do have very big challenges you also have very big opportunities. And friends man, you have friends. I know we give you guys shit all the time, but trust me, when Americans rise up and stand up we all feel a bit taller. I'm telling you this as someone who listened to RATM on the way to weekly marches getting gassed by the police, thinking we were trying to be as cool as the WTO protests in Seattle.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 4 child comments
  • [–] 3 points 9 months ago (3 children)

    I feel like what you are touching at is that liberals in the US, and Americans in general, are waiting for a touch stone. So far nothing has gone so far as to start the fire. On the other hand there has been no centralizing ember, someone to carry the torch.

    Yes, the US has a long history of minority organizing, but minorities are one of the worst groups for turning out for elections (in fact minorities are more likely to turn out if they are voting for Republicans than they are for anyone else, a key element of being a conservative in the US is turning out to vote but liberals can't seem to harness that energy).

    The US doesn't have the baggage as you mentioned, but the existence of the two party system carries a ton of baggage on it's own and has effectively squashed most third party resistance.

    Most American's do believe in Democracy, but sadly one half is too stupid to know what it is and the other half only believes in it when it supports their ideas. The second group is one which would happily ban all abortions and then complain when a woman can't get an abortion even though the pregnancy is killing her. My very own cousin is white trash poor with his children living on government assistance, but thinks we need to end welfare because the minorities are using it. These people are too stupid for governance.

    To your final point, the US left needs a leader, a cult of personality to combat Trump, but there frankly isn't anyone right now. So far no one high enough up in the social circle has been willing to stick their head out far enough to rally around.

    I hate to say it, but the US is at the point where we need a life line. Just like the US coming in and occupying Germany to eliminate the Nazis, we now need an outside force to help fix our shit. Short of that the US needs another civil war, but I'm not so certain that it will go the way we want it.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 3 child comments
  • [–] 4 points 9 months ago (2 children)

    The reasons you outlined are why you are in trouble. As in, if they weren't the case you would be in trouble. It's a bit of a circular tautology. But they are not things that doom you. They are the shape of the whole you're in. And it's on you guys to find a way out. There's no way around that. And no, the world is not coming to save you: there is no cavalry.

    I don't think you guys are doomed. I think the opposite, that the American people are a sleeping giant that can shake the world. And no, I don't think you need to jump straight to shooting reach other.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • [–] 1 point 9 months ago* (1 child)

    I think that's all well and good unless you are wrong. From my perspective I think you are wrong, but maybe you aren't. As things sit the people that are on your side think they are in trouble and want outside help, but you are saying "you'll be fine." The US has historically been the interventionist in the first world, but now they are in need of intervention. This has been the soul of the Republican argument for a long time, the US intervenes and the rest of the world does nothing. Now the Republican's want to pull aid from allies and intervene (cough invade) only when it benefits them.

    At the very least Europe needs to pick up the slack the US is dropping, even if they don't go the extra mile to help fix the US. At the end of the day the US is steering towards needing foreign interventions, a civil war, or devolving into a totalitarian regime. Meanwhile the rest of the world is watching and wondering why we don't just fix ourselves. I'll tell you the sensible answer, I'm renewing my passport and making sure I have enough money for a last minute flight out of the country.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • [–] 4 points 9 months ago

    You're absolutely right. Generations jave been indoctrinated to give up autonomy and control to the system. People have been socially and economically backed into a corner where they don't feel like they can make any real change in their lives.

    They know transcending class barriers is impossible (though they lie to themselves about it) and they don't really believe that politics make a difference. People don't vote. They scrabble at shit jobs and go into debt to feel richer.

    Violence is the one form of power they're truly clinging to. A gun is a surrogate for control. It's power you can exert in your narrow sphere.

    Most of this perception is wrong, but it's a part of the culture. The idea that the only way this can get fixed is violent civil war is a game of chicken with the ruling class and they're betting that people won't actually rise up.

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 3 points 9 months ago

    You're totally right. A war is the last avenue to take. But you also are here on Lemmy, so you must see the constant calls for US Americans to take up arms against one another, despite the fact that avenues remain.

    Shit sucks here. Shit will suck a lot more if there's a war. And it will suck here and everywhere else. A lot more.

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 4 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (4 children)

    You have barely tried non violent resistance (not the same as peaceful!) but you’re such a violent culture that you jump straight to military solutions.

    Most Americans are victims of a violent regime and not violent themselves. They're scared and going through something most Canadians and many post-WWII Europeans will never have to deal with in their lifetimes. People are being murdered, and you're telling the victims it's their fault and that they're violent for trying to prepare for a worst-case scenario.

    Yes, of course there are other ways to confront this. Yes, I wish the country I was regrettably born in was culturally more like the EU and Canada. But it's not that simple and I can't help but feel that this comment is in poor taste.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 4 child comments
  • [–] 0 points 9 months ago (3 children)
  • [–] 4 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (2 children)

    You missed mine. Until you find yourself the victim of an authoritarian state you live in starting a Holocaust, you don't get to make blanket statements about an entire country that lumps the oppressors and the oppressed into the same category.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • [–] 3 points 9 months ago (1 child)

    I’m not denying fear, violence, or victimhood. And I’m not equating oppressors with the oppressed. I should push back on the idea that naming cultural patterns equals blaming victims, or that only people inside the worst possible historical analogy are allowed to analyze trajectories.

    I’m talking about how societies slide, not about who deserves what. Those are different conversations. I’ve been on the receiving end of state violence. I’ve marched, been gassed, watched movements radicalize too fast and burn themselves out. That’s exactly why I’m saying this: jumping straight to existential framing and armed horizons doesn’t protect anyone it only narrows the future until only catastrophe is left.

    You don’t need to already be in a Holocaust to talk about escalation dynamics. In fact, if you wait until everything is unspeakable, analysis is already useless. Yes, fear is justified and preparation is understandable and necessary. But when fear becomes immune to critique, it stops being a warning signal and starts being a steering wheel.

    My point hasn’t changed: there is still space, Real Political Space, for non-violent (not peaceful!) resistance, that can be powerfully disruptive. Once that space collapses, it doesn’t reopen because people were right about how bad things felt. I’m arguing against that collapse, not minimizing what’s at stake.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • [–] 4 points 9 months ago*

    I should push back on the idea that naming cultural patterns equals blaming victims, or that only people inside the worst possible historical analogy are allowed to analyze trajectories.

    You can absolutely analyze cultural patterns. I'm just saying "you're a violent culture" wasn't the right choice of words. It's also important to, while analyzing cultural patterns, to consider the role of privilege, and that words and actions are two different things, especially when the critic is looking in from the outside. I'm not talking about you specifically, but I've seen a lot of European/Canadian schadenfreude in left-wing online spaces (like Lemmy) over the situation happening an America. While they aren't wrong that America is brash and needed to be taken down a peg, and there is a place for analyzing the political trajectory, sometimes these people forget the millions of people who aren't gun-blazing, beer drinking, flag-waving patriots who are in danger, and that if they had the bad luck of being born somewhere else, they themselves might be in the exact same situation. The idea that "America tore itself apart" makes less sense the more you think about it, but seems incredibly plausible to an observer. I think the issue at hand is that, yes, it's good to analyze cultural patterns, but America was never a monoculture.

    In both situations, I ask: How does it help in these left-wing spaces to make blanket statements about Americans, when most of the posters in these spaces are the exception to Americanism and not the rule? Who is the "you" in "you're a violent culture"?

    You don’t need to already be in a Holocaust to talk about escalation dynamics. In fact, if you wait until everything is unspeakable, analysis is already useless.

    I agree with this. But the message is everything. OP was just trying to make plans for a worst-case scenario and probably not jumping immediately to violence. While it indeed is important to recognize the spectrum of resistance, it also isn't wrong to prep for the worst in addition to that. Currently, the people of Minneapolis, Minnesota, are resisting non-violently, and the Administration is still assaulting and murdering people and Trump is still threatening the Insurrection Act and martial law. For you, it's a golden lining, but for us living it, we're questioning whether that will work this time and bracing for impact. Is continuing nonviolent resistance the thing that save America? Maybe. Maybe the regime still won't give us that chance. Maybe they will just make up lies to cancel elections and enact martial law. And if all options are extinguished and violence breaks out from that, it won't be our fault for not being nonviolent enough.

    Again, there's nothing wrong about your underlying point -- nonviolent resistance is important -- but how it was worded.

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 43 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (5 children)

    My roommate watched a woman get dragged from her wrecked car, bleeding and screaming for help, being disappeared by ICE. They were recording and I've seen the video. I'll probably never forget it. I carry a whistle now but I pray I'll never need it. We're like two weeks into whatever the fuck this is and I'm already sick of it. I'm tired of running to the window every time I hear a car alarm, I'm tired of wondering if I hear the wind or a whistle. I'm tired of worrying about more people I know getting abducted, and scrutinizing every vehicle that drives past if they're going to fuck with me because I'm visibly queer and also trying not to be mistaken for the gestapo occupying my city. Is this an occupation? And I know war is worse. Fuck all of this.

  • source
  • hideshow 5 child comments
  • [–] 3 points 9 months ago (4 children)

    What's the whistle for? I think I may be out of the loop on this.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 4 child comments
  • [–] 13 points 9 months ago (2 children)

    Lots of people are carrying whistles to blow if they see ICE, with the effect of calling more people with whistles to the scene to surround /harrass/confused ICE, and additionally warning neighborhoods of ICE presence.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • [–] 4 points 9 months ago (1 child)

    Ah, interesting. Has it been working effectively? I could imagine ICE attempting to lure them away using a whistle of their own to create a false alarm.

    Is there a specific whistle that they use? If any whistle will do, I can vouch for this one. It's really loud.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • [–] 20 points 9 months ago

    the problem with a civil war is collapse of the supply chain for most people, and you'll have to become useful to get protection

  • source
  • [–] 40 points 9 months ago (2 children)

    I think there's gonna be a lot of Asian American stores getting looted if this happens.

    Asian diasporas are always considered the universal "soft target", I mean just read the news.

    We'd have LA Riots all over again, law enforcement will leave us to die while racist mobs lynch us.

  • source
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • [–] 17 points 9 months ago

    remember all those attacks during and right after covid, it was against chinese/asians, and the news pratically stopped talking about it the next day. a white person , dare i say an AA person you would have news weeks on end about them.

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 19 points 9 months ago

    Everybody know it not a game but st some point there is no othet options and fight oppresion

  • source
  • [–] 34 points 9 months ago (7 children)

    Americans are sadly locked into the path of violence as the other path will force them to face their systemic racism, and corporate idolization which is clearly not going to happen.

    It took Nicole Good to be face shot before people really started to react despite 4 other similar events with non white females and I am constantly shocked how many Americans defend corporations that are literally exploiting them. America is cooked unfortunately as like most humans, myself included, we tend to become blind with power.

  • source
  • hideshow 7 child comments
  • [–] 25 points 9 months ago (1 child)

    Renee Good was her name. Not Nicole. Sucks that attention was only given after a white LGBT woman was killed. Still sucks even more that she was killed. I am haunted by the pictures of her glove box. It was filled with stuffed animals for her child.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • [–] 9 points 9 months ago

    Corporations became the dominate force in our culture and in every culture around the world. 90% + of all policy in the whole world is written by corporations. There isn't a country that exist without widening income inequality.

    It would be great if this was just an American problem. It isn't. The wealthy will use their favorite proxy the corporation to run humanity into the ground. They have already poisoned the entire planet time and time again. They are the biggest threat humanity has ever seen.

    They make the Nazi look wholesome. Remember it was IBM that developed the numbering system for Jews and also helped figure out how many Jews needed to be cleared out of the Ghetto daily for the final solution. Likewise MS, Google, Meta, etc. have been giving material support to genocide.

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 6 points 9 months ago

    For me it was the blunt justification of horrific indiscriminate killing of children with sniper rifle, tens of gun shots, and dropping bomb dirctlt on school and hospital. Seeing how the media did everything to cover it up, politician working overtime to censor protest, and Democrat , and Republican presidents shipping an absurd amount of tax money directly to fund the genociders what made it clear that the US corporations, and government will kill anything in their way to ensure US and other nations are slave.

    The only way around this is to wait until US invade another Nato or EU country and for these country to withdraw rich people ability to leave the US. Then a revolution might be successful.

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 5 points 9 months ago

    Honest question: were the other events filmed like Rene's killing was? My hypothesis is that's it's more about the available footage of the incident than the victim's demographics... But the USA is racist as fuck so I could be wrong.

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 17 points 9 months ago

    Man, I don't even own a gun.

  • source
  • [–] 16 points 9 months ago*

    I'm not really expecting a "civil war" for the many reasons stated by others.

    I'm more expecting total societal collapse combined with extremely violent capitalist repression - largely due to the ongoing destruction of the planet. Basically a continuation of what's been happening for centuries.

  • source
  • [–] 15 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

    One thing you saw in places like Syria and the Balkans was a lot of revenge murders and groups that were essentially gangs terrorizing and enslaving towns.

    I remember reading how people in the old Yugoslavia talked about how people they'd lived next to for generations suddenly turned on them. The same in Rwanda where groups were slaughtered en masse. People were packed into churches and the buildings set on fire, etc.

  • source
  • [–] 29 points 9 months ago (2 children)

    I doubt that America as we know it can survive, period. There needs to be a change - whether that's about wealth classes, political beliefs, or various -isms. We can't use a system that was intentionally broken to fix things. The words of slavers from 250 years ago are too weak. The way that things have developed across the regions of this massive, unwieldy, federation needs amendment.

    Unfortunately, right now the pendulum is swinging hard in one direction. There's no meaningful fighters on the other side. So us little people have to cling to hope - and that hope is increasingly looking like it has to come from force, and from the barrel of a gun.

  • source
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • [–] 20 points 9 months ago (1 child)

    There’s simply too much centralized power there. You need something more of a union of independent states with very limited “federal” power, much like the EU. Sure, there will never be a clean consensus on anything, but at least there’s no chance a single grifter can seize so much power to wield that they can basically just do whatever to whoever within the federation and beyond.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • [–] 14 points 9 months ago (2 children)

    Forget civil war. Mass protests in the US would look like what is happening in Iran.

  • source
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • [–] 3 points 9 months ago

    Doubtful, the average American doesn't have the cardio to walk that long. It would be a bunch of cars honking while the driver watches football on the phone and eats cheeseburgers.

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 14 points 9 months ago

    The times may change but people stay the same. In the early days of the (first) American civil war, people expected it to be done and over with very quickly. To the point they went out with picnic baskets and sandwiches to view the battle. They might not have even understood how devastating the war was going to be even as the confederates won that battle.

    src

  • source
  • load more comments
    view more: next ›
    2 comments in c/ausmusic view that post