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[–] 130 points 9 months ago* (54 children)

There are groups of designers who have the job of making symbols and systems that can survive for an extremely long time. One of their tasks was to design “signage” that might let generations thousands of years in the future not go poking around in nuclear waste yards. But the more crazy deadly and dangerous you make an artifact look, the more those future scientists are going to want to get into them.

This is not a place of honor

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  • [–] 104 points 9 months ago (3 children)
  • [–] 61 points 9 months ago (12 children)

    The nuclear spike deterrent field has been a favorite of mine

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  • [–] 42 points 9 months ago (6 children)

    This one looks cool, and I think that’s its biggest problem. It’s clearly a massive, man-made structure with no obvious purpose, yet with striking visual impact. To the hypothetical future civilization that is unaware of the dangerous nuclear waste, it basically begs to be investigated.

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  • [–] 11 points 9 months ago (5 children)

    man-made structure with no obvious purpose

    Probably something religious.

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  • [–] 4 points 9 months ago (3 children)

    Yeah because desecrating religious sanctuaries has stopped humanity thus wait

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  • [–] 8 points 9 months ago* (2 children)

    Oh, I meant it more in the sense how archeologists/historians often say something was used for some religious or ritual purposes when they can't come up with a better explanation. See for example Stonehenge or roman dodecahedrons. There was also the idea for an atomic priesthood which would be charged with keeping the knowledge about nuclear waste sites.

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  • [–] 1 point 9 months ago (1 child)

    At least with Stonehenge it makes sense to group it in with religious worship of some type since it matches known human actions both historical and modern. As for Roman dodecahedron my money is still on it just being a nick nack, an expensive one but a nick nack none the less.

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  • [–] 3 points 9 months ago (2 children)

    Oh man imagine jumping out of a plane and ramming one of those up your ass at full speed.

    Sploosh.

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  • [–] 33 points 9 months ago

    I watched a documentary about that: Into Eternity

    What I thought was interesting about the film was the balance between entertaining a fantastical vision of some future explorer stumbling across the radioactive site, and the mundanity of most of the actual work.

    One of the engineers said something like: "When we seal this up with so much concrete, there's no way you're getting in here without machinery. We should be more concerned about a future civilization that comes back here for radioactive materials when they've exhausted all other natural sources"

    And then there's a whole section of the film about rules-lawyering the storage site. The dump was chartered by the Finish government to seal waste "for all time", and the engineers were mad that nothing is truly permanent.

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  • [–] 31 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (1 child)

    Man this would be such a killer start or premise for a sci fi book

    This place is a message... and part of a system of messages... pay attention to it!

    Sending this message was important to us. We considered ourselves to be a powerful culture. This place is not a place of honor... no highly esteemed deed is commemorated here... nothing valued is here.

    What is here was dangerous and repulsive to us. This message is a warning about danger. The danger is in a particular location... it increases towards a center... the center of danger is here... of a particular size and shape, and below us.

    The danger is still present, in your time, as it was in ours.

    The danger is to the body, and it can kill. The form of the danger is an emanation of energy.

    The danger is unleashed only if you substantially disturb this place physically. This place is best shunned and left uninhabited.

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  • [–] 20 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (30 children)

    I was thinking about this and their thinking was way too complicated. The symbol you need is bones. Bones are always associated with death and decay because after death, bones are the thing that's left.

    And yes I know they thought of it but I think their dismissal of it is wrong. Their counter argument that it was once a symbol of something else by some culture, therefore. But again by its very nature it's associated with death. Any society capable of this excavation is also capable of thinking "hmm what did they mean? outside of our own culture of course" and will quickly figure out it's bad.

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  • [–] 14 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (4 children)

    Take a skull-and-crossbones. It might be taken to mean danger or poison. Or it might be taken to mean pirates or treasure. And if the future explorers did connect it with danger or poison, why wouldn't they also just think it was maybe a superstition meant to keep outsiders from getting "the good stuff," like the curses that were sealed into ancient Egyptian tombs?

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  • [–] 5 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (3 children)

    Why did pirates use it? Because it's "give us your shit or you die." Aka it was a symbol of death.

    I think your fear is more likely with the current ominous but doesn't tell you why message (if the language part is lost).

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  • [–] 5 points 9 months ago (2 children)

    Yeah, a future civilization finds a field covered in spikes. "I wonder what that's guarding. Must be something good!"

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  • [–] 14 points 9 months ago (1 child)

    What about when the time of Mammals is done, and the next inhabitant has a chitinous exoskeleton? I'm not sure they'd recognize bones as a sign of this place being dangerous.

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  • [–] 14 points 9 months ago (18 children)

    Yeah, Carl Sagan was like "skull and crossbones"

    But of course everyone else wanted to over-engineer it, so you get proposed solutions like encoding messages in the DNA of plants, and color-changing cats with an accompanying viral song that no one's ever heard of twelve years later... 🤦‍♀️

    Like, guys, if people today can't even figure out what it means, then it's not a universal and enduring message.

    And then some of the suggestions would only serve to make it a glaringly obvious archaeological dig site.

    Skull and crossbones is about as universal as you can get. Maybe some atomic diagrams and radiation symbols, and written warnings in as many languages as possible, just in case people still understand them. And a giant slab that someone could only drill through deliberately, requiring heavy equipment.

    I can't believe these were supposedly some of the smartest people in the world, and yet they made the mistakes of assuming that future civilizations would be hyperintelligent and thoroughly inquisitive, while also not understanding any symbols from our era and being likely to avoid areas designed to seem ominous. As if egyptologists today respect the warnings on ancient tombs.

    And yet they overlooked the skull and crossbones because it seemed too obvious. The whole point is that it's supposed to be obvious!!!

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  • [–] 6 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (17 children)

    Atomic diagrams would be good for advanced societies, but societies in the bronze age or middle age advancment are the ones that we have to worry about. They won't understand atomic phyiscs but they are capable of excavation. Any fancy symbols might just intrigue them.

    I think they underestimated the intelligence of possible future societies. Any society advanced enough to excavate this will be intelligent enough to ask "what does this symbol logically mean". They won't be limited to the 'bad-vibes' that the current ideas are heavy on (language aside).

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  • [–] 0 points 9 months ago (16 children)

    They were really counting on a middle-age level of advancement when they suggested making a new religion with a priesthood and its own mythology...

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  • [–] 2 points 9 months ago (15 children)

    Hm? All those things existed long before the middle ages. They even existed in prehistory.

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  • [–] 0 points 9 months ago (14 children)

    Okay, so I should have said "middle age or prior." Would that be better?

    I mainly said middle ages since they compared the idea to the catholic church, but I understand the analogy could apply to other religions

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  • [–] 1 point 9 months ago (13 children)

    Then I guess I just don't understand your point. Obviously they'd assume a "middle age or prior" society when coming up with solutions to "how can we make sure a middle ages or prior society understands the danger of nuclear material".

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  • [–] 1 point 9 months ago (12 children)

    But that's following the assumption that a society far into the future will be at the level of advancement of a middle-age society or prior. It's not universal if anyone from a modern or post-modern level of advancement would look at it and think "that's just primitive superstition."

    A skull and crossbones is a pretty universal symbol of death. As long as a future society is humanoid, or at least familiar with humanoids, they can see that and recognize what it means, regardless of their level of advancement.

    Some mythology that speaks of ancient ancestors who created magical rocks that can melt your flesh off at a distance so that they could turn the daylight on inside isn't likely to deter anyone but the most gullible and least inquisitive.

    It also assumes that such a made-up religion would survive longer than any extant languages and scientific knowledge, which is absurd.

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  • [–] -1 points 9 months ago* (11 children)

    You do understand that a modern or post-modern society will have their own tools to detect radiation? We don't need to optimize for them, we need to optimize for those people who haven't developed that far.

    A skull and crossbones is a pretty universal symbol of death.

    Oh yeah? Have you seen any research demonstrating that people unfamiliar with that iconography associate it universally with death? Or are you assuming they would, since you've seen it associated with death your whole life due to pirate media etc?

    Your solution is barely above "why don't they just write NUCLEAR STUFF, DANGER?"

    Some mythology that speaks of ancient ancestors who created magical rocks that can melt your flesh off at a distance so that they could turn the daylight on inside isn't likely to deter anyone but the most gullible and least inquisitive.

    Yeah, not like millions of people have been following such rules for thousands of years. Much better to use iconography they probably won't know or understand.

    It also assumes that such a made-up religion would survive longer than any extant languages and scientific knowledge, which is absurd.

    We LITERALLY have religions that survived their languages & scientific knowledge dying off, and most of our modern religious ideas are simply remixes of previous ones. You couldn't be more wrong if you tried.

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  • [–] 1 point 9 months ago (10 children)

    You do understand that a modern or post-modern society will have their own tools to detect radiation? We don't need to optimize for them, we need to optimize for those people who haven't developed that far.

    Yes, and do you realize that not everyone in a nuclear-capable society wanders around with a geiger counter? If an archaeologist digs up a plate with an atomic diagram of a radioactive isotope, they would at least know "hey, maybe I should get a geiger counter before digging any further."

    Oh yeah? Have you seen any research demonstrating that people unfamiliar with that iconography associate it universally with death?

    Dude, when humans die, they decompose, leaving behind a skull and bones. I'm not making any assumptions based on "pirate media." Pirates used the symbol because it's universally recognizably as implying "death" or "danger." It's highly arrogant and insulting for you to think any other culture wouldn't be capable of drawing that connection.

    Yeah, not like millions of people have been following such rules for thousands of years.

    And modern society, particularly in scientifically-minded sectors, already view that as archaic superstition. How are you going to convince enough nuclear engineers to join your cult in order to maintain an unbroken apostolic succession for millennia?

    We LITERALLY have religions that survived their languages & scientific knowledge dying off, and most of our modern religious ideas are simply remixes of previous ones.

    Name one religion that has survived its original language dying off. Reconstructions such as neopaganism don't count, and neither do languages that can still be translated.

    Also, if the nuclear radiation cult's mythology gets "remixed" by a new religion, then it loses the intent of preserving a warning for future generations. Do you honestly believe modern christianity has maintained the same intent as the original?

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  • [–] -1 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (9 children)

    Dude, when humans die, they decompose, leaving behind a skull and bones.

    Yep. And what happens with those remains? They get buried, often with valuables - treasure! This must be a grave, let's dig it up!

    Whoops, your "universal sign of danger" just attracts people.

    It's highly arrogant and insulting for you to think any other culture wouldn't be capable of drawing that connection.

    Oh, how lucky are we to have you in our midst, who - without any research or evidence - just happened to know much better than people who have researched this.

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  • [–] 1 point 9 months ago (8 children)

    Your arrogance is showing. It's embarrassing for you that you don't see it.

    "i'Ve ReSeArChEd ThIs, trust me bro" oh yeah, and I suppose that means you've encountered a culture that doesn't understand the meaning of the skull and crossbones, since you're sooo confident they would think it means treasure?

    By the way, pirates didn't mark their treasure with the symbol; that would be stupid. They displayed it on their ships to instill fear in their victims before boarding.

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  • [–] 0 points 9 months ago (7 children)

    "i'Ve ReSeArChEd ThIs, trust me bro"

    I haven't researched this, scientists have.

    oh yeah, and I suppose that means you've encountered a culture that doesn't understand the meaning of the skull and crossbones, since you're sooo confident they would think it means treasure?

    I don't think it's possible for me to communicate with you. You're literally too dense to understand that other people don't have the same cultural background and could interpret symbols differently.

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  • [–] 1 point 9 months ago (6 children)

    And you're too dense to understand that literally every human being who's ever lived or ever will is capable of drawing the inherent connection between the skull and crossbones and death, due to the inherent relationship between them.

    Literally Carl Sagan even proposed using the symbol. Is he too dense to understand too?

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  • [–] 0 points 9 months ago (5 children)

    [...] the inherent connection between the skull and crossbones and death

    YES, WHICH IS CONNECTED TO GRAVES, AND THUS VALUABLES

    Which part of this sentence is too complex for you?

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  • [–] 1 point 9 months ago (4 children)

    Not every grave contains valuables, and ones that do would be marked with more elaborate symbols and ornamentation.

    Nobody's tombstone has a skull and crossbones on it, your argument is completely detached from reality

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  • [–] 0 points 9 months ago* (3 children)

    There are literally millions of graves without elaborate symbols or ornamentation, but with valuables. What the fuck?

    And we're talking about signs created by a previous, far more advanced civilization which are made from materials and colors the people we talk about could have never imagined. HOW MUCH MORE ELABORATE AND ORNATE CAN YOU GET?!

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  • [–] 1 point 9 months ago (2 children)

    You're imagining a future civilization will be so devolved that they would have less colors than we do? You're not even approaching this from a standpoint of reality, so I'm done here.

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  • [–] 4 points 9 months ago (2 children)

    The symbol you need is bones. Bones are always associated with death and decay because after death, bones are the thing that’s left.

    I think the only way to get it taken seriously is to include depictions of the site and depictions of what radiation sickness looks like.

    Make like a 100 page comic that starts with someone opening a cask and removing a fuel element, then dying days later, the element leaving contamination, which kills someone else months later, causes birth defects, etc until it's returned.

    You're not going to scare a society into never investigating something, but you might be able to convince them to put it back and bury it again after they realize the predictions are accurate.

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  • [–] 2 points 9 months ago (1 child)

    And what exactly do you make the comic book out of?

    Because "pages" denotes paper and paper will disintegrate long before this place becomes safe

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  • [–] 6 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

    Put it out of reach of humans without advanced tech. Under 2km of antarctic ice, in a deep sea trench, things like that. We are not talking millions of years, only a few thousand. And in case of accidents, water/ice is a great radiation blocker.

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  • [–] 45 points 9 months ago (6 children)

    Early nuclear scientists were batshit crazy deranged lunatics. Louis Slotin was researching the criticality of a plutonium core by lowering half a sphere of beryllium over it using the tip of a screwdriver and not a single piece of safety equipment.

    It did not end well.

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  • [–] 21 points 9 months ago (4 children)

    They sacrificed their lives so we could know both the power and danger ofthee subatomic world. They are accidental heroes. Now, someone who did that shit today with full knowledge of the consequences - they would be batshit insane.

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  • [–] 35 points 9 months ago (2 children)

    For what its worth, Slotin in particular knew the consequences. If i recall correctly, he had a reputation for being a bit of a "cowboy" when it came to experimental protocol. I believe the lab even had specially made tools for handling the core, but Slotin insisted on using a screwdriver because it was easier.

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  • [–] 2 points 9 months ago (1 child)

    Thanks, I will read more about him. Was not aware.

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  • [–] 2 points 9 months ago

    To add on to what the other comments said, when the screwdriver slipped and the shell closed completely briefly, making the ball go critical, they all knew what happened and he immediately asked everyone in the room to note their position and calculated the approximate radiation dose they each got up figure out who was going to slowly melt into goo over the next few days and who was going to die of cancer over the years.

    He knew right away that he was one of the goo ones.

    So I'm not sure I'd call that heroic discovery because they already knew what would happen and were just showing off how much balls they had fucking with something so deadly.

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  • [–] 77 points 9 months ago (4 children)

    "There is a black ichor in center of earth, made from the dying flesh from old beast. When using it you can reach ultimate power, but by using it you slowly doom the world"

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  • [–] 22 points 9 months ago

    Sounds like a classic cursed artifact, read this and you will learn great knowledge, but die slowly....

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  • [–] 11 points 9 months ago

    That explains it. All the mystical, mythological stories in the past weren't fanciful fairytales after all. Turns out that ancient people had sophisticated science that we still don't understand. Holy shit, all those history channel shows about ancient aliens or whatever were right!

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  • [–] 5 points 9 months ago

    Well did someone take pictures first before sealing them up??

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  • [–] -2 points 9 months ago (1 child)
  • [–] [S] 11 points 9 months ago

    Why am I cross-posting .ml content?

    I cross-post from .ml to the nearest relevant non-.ml comm to reduce the influence of .ml comms and indirectly, the instance as a whole, to make it an easier decision for other instance admins to defederate because one key reason I identified that admins don't want to defederate is because .ml still has some very large comms and some niche comms.

    Megathread on the issue

    Some highlights from the link:

    "Don't worry guys, the Uyghur Genocide was REALLY just birth control! ~dessalines, .ml admin, dev https://lemmy.world/post/30580167

    "See! nobody died IN Tiananmen Square, just AROUND it, so it doesn't count!!" ~ Davel, .ml admin https://lemmy.world/post/30673342

    .ml admin, Nutomics continued transphobia https://lemmy.world/post/29222558 The original transphobic Comment from Nutomic: https://lemmy.world/post/18236068

    "NK is actually good and anything counter to that is Western propaganda!" ~dessalines, .ml admin, dev https://lemmy.world/post/31595035

    General negative sentiment to other instances who haven't "seen the way" yet ~davel, .ml admin https://lemmy.world/post/27426510

    "If you don't support Russia then you just don't understand geopolitics" ~dessalines, .ml admin, dev https://lemmy.world/post/27352415

    And so so much documentation on clear heavy handed censorship and bias also on the link. So much I can't even put them all here because this comment would be really long.

    I believe the behavior of its admins (the main admins are Lemmy devs) does harm to the overall growth of the Lemmy-verse and maybe even the Thrediverse (since Lemmy kinda kicked off the Thrediverse) because of its association with the devs of Lemmy and their insistence to use .ml as their personal political platform to spread harmful propaganda

    On the outside, bringing up Lemmy frequently leads to comments like "Lemmy? Isn't that the place with a bunch of tankies?" Or "Tried Lemmy, but found it full of pro Russia crap so I left". The best way forward from that I see is to either widely defederate from .ml like the rest of the Triad, or pressure them to put a fair and unbiased as possible admin team.

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