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[–] 20 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (30 children)

I was thinking about this and their thinking was way too complicated. The symbol you need is bones. Bones are always associated with death and decay because after death, bones are the thing that's left.

And yes I know they thought of it but I think their dismissal of it is wrong. Their counter argument that it was once a symbol of something else by some culture, therefore. But again by its very nature it's associated with death. Any society capable of this excavation is also capable of thinking "hmm what did they mean? outside of our own culture of course" and will quickly figure out it's bad.

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  • [–] 14 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (4 children)

    Take a skull-and-crossbones. It might be taken to mean danger or poison. Or it might be taken to mean pirates or treasure. And if the future explorers did connect it with danger or poison, why wouldn't they also just think it was maybe a superstition meant to keep outsiders from getting "the good stuff," like the curses that were sealed into ancient Egyptian tombs?

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  • [–] 5 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (3 children)

    Why did pirates use it? Because it's "give us your shit or you die." Aka it was a symbol of death.

    I think your fear is more likely with the current ominous but doesn't tell you why message (if the language part is lost).

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  • [–] 5 points 9 months ago (2 children)

    Yeah, a future civilization finds a field covered in spikes. "I wonder what that's guarding. Must be something good!"

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  • [–] 14 points 9 months ago (1 child)

    What about when the time of Mammals is done, and the next inhabitant has a chitinous exoskeleton? I'm not sure they'd recognize bones as a sign of this place being dangerous.

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  • [–] 14 points 9 months ago (18 children)

    Yeah, Carl Sagan was like "skull and crossbones"

    But of course everyone else wanted to over-engineer it, so you get proposed solutions like encoding messages in the DNA of plants, and color-changing cats with an accompanying viral song that no one's ever heard of twelve years later... 🤦‍♀️

    Like, guys, if people today can't even figure out what it means, then it's not a universal and enduring message.

    And then some of the suggestions would only serve to make it a glaringly obvious archaeological dig site.

    Skull and crossbones is about as universal as you can get. Maybe some atomic diagrams and radiation symbols, and written warnings in as many languages as possible, just in case people still understand them. And a giant slab that someone could only drill through deliberately, requiring heavy equipment.

    I can't believe these were supposedly some of the smartest people in the world, and yet they made the mistakes of assuming that future civilizations would be hyperintelligent and thoroughly inquisitive, while also not understanding any symbols from our era and being likely to avoid areas designed to seem ominous. As if egyptologists today respect the warnings on ancient tombs.

    And yet they overlooked the skull and crossbones because it seemed too obvious. The whole point is that it's supposed to be obvious!!!

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  • [–] 6 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (17 children)

    Atomic diagrams would be good for advanced societies, but societies in the bronze age or middle age advancment are the ones that we have to worry about. They won't understand atomic phyiscs but they are capable of excavation. Any fancy symbols might just intrigue them.

    I think they underestimated the intelligence of possible future societies. Any society advanced enough to excavate this will be intelligent enough to ask "what does this symbol logically mean". They won't be limited to the 'bad-vibes' that the current ideas are heavy on (language aside).

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  • [–] 0 points 9 months ago (16 children)

    They were really counting on a middle-age level of advancement when they suggested making a new religion with a priesthood and its own mythology...

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  • [–] 2 points 9 months ago (15 children)

    Hm? All those things existed long before the middle ages. They even existed in prehistory.

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  • [–] 0 points 9 months ago (14 children)

    Okay, so I should have said "middle age or prior." Would that be better?

    I mainly said middle ages since they compared the idea to the catholic church, but I understand the analogy could apply to other religions

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  • [–] 1 point 9 months ago (13 children)

    Then I guess I just don't understand your point. Obviously they'd assume a "middle age or prior" society when coming up with solutions to "how can we make sure a middle ages or prior society understands the danger of nuclear material".

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  • [–] 1 point 9 months ago (12 children)

    But that's following the assumption that a society far into the future will be at the level of advancement of a middle-age society or prior. It's not universal if anyone from a modern or post-modern level of advancement would look at it and think "that's just primitive superstition."

    A skull and crossbones is a pretty universal symbol of death. As long as a future society is humanoid, or at least familiar with humanoids, they can see that and recognize what it means, regardless of their level of advancement.

    Some mythology that speaks of ancient ancestors who created magical rocks that can melt your flesh off at a distance so that they could turn the daylight on inside isn't likely to deter anyone but the most gullible and least inquisitive.

    It also assumes that such a made-up religion would survive longer than any extant languages and scientific knowledge, which is absurd.

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  • [–] -1 points 9 months ago* (11 children)

    You do understand that a modern or post-modern society will have their own tools to detect radiation? We don't need to optimize for them, we need to optimize for those people who haven't developed that far.

    A skull and crossbones is a pretty universal symbol of death.

    Oh yeah? Have you seen any research demonstrating that people unfamiliar with that iconography associate it universally with death? Or are you assuming they would, since you've seen it associated with death your whole life due to pirate media etc?

    Your solution is barely above "why don't they just write NUCLEAR STUFF, DANGER?"

    Some mythology that speaks of ancient ancestors who created magical rocks that can melt your flesh off at a distance so that they could turn the daylight on inside isn't likely to deter anyone but the most gullible and least inquisitive.

    Yeah, not like millions of people have been following such rules for thousands of years. Much better to use iconography they probably won't know or understand.

    It also assumes that such a made-up religion would survive longer than any extant languages and scientific knowledge, which is absurd.

    We LITERALLY have religions that survived their languages & scientific knowledge dying off, and most of our modern religious ideas are simply remixes of previous ones. You couldn't be more wrong if you tried.

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  • [–] 1 point 9 months ago (10 children)

    You do understand that a modern or post-modern society will have their own tools to detect radiation? We don't need to optimize for them, we need to optimize for those people who haven't developed that far.

    Yes, and do you realize that not everyone in a nuclear-capable society wanders around with a geiger counter? If an archaeologist digs up a plate with an atomic diagram of a radioactive isotope, they would at least know "hey, maybe I should get a geiger counter before digging any further."

    Oh yeah? Have you seen any research demonstrating that people unfamiliar with that iconography associate it universally with death?

    Dude, when humans die, they decompose, leaving behind a skull and bones. I'm not making any assumptions based on "pirate media." Pirates used the symbol because it's universally recognizably as implying "death" or "danger." It's highly arrogant and insulting for you to think any other culture wouldn't be capable of drawing that connection.

    Yeah, not like millions of people have been following such rules for thousands of years.

    And modern society, particularly in scientifically-minded sectors, already view that as archaic superstition. How are you going to convince enough nuclear engineers to join your cult in order to maintain an unbroken apostolic succession for millennia?

    We LITERALLY have religions that survived their languages & scientific knowledge dying off, and most of our modern religious ideas are simply remixes of previous ones.

    Name one religion that has survived its original language dying off. Reconstructions such as neopaganism don't count, and neither do languages that can still be translated.

    Also, if the nuclear radiation cult's mythology gets "remixed" by a new religion, then it loses the intent of preserving a warning for future generations. Do you honestly believe modern christianity has maintained the same intent as the original?

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  • [–] -1 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (9 children)

    Dude, when humans die, they decompose, leaving behind a skull and bones.

    Yep. And what happens with those remains? They get buried, often with valuables - treasure! This must be a grave, let's dig it up!

    Whoops, your "universal sign of danger" just attracts people.

    It's highly arrogant and insulting for you to think any other culture wouldn't be capable of drawing that connection.

    Oh, how lucky are we to have you in our midst, who - without any research or evidence - just happened to know much better than people who have researched this.

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  • [–] 1 point 9 months ago (8 children)

    Your arrogance is showing. It's embarrassing for you that you don't see it.

    "i'Ve ReSeArChEd ThIs, trust me bro" oh yeah, and I suppose that means you've encountered a culture that doesn't understand the meaning of the skull and crossbones, since you're sooo confident they would think it means treasure?

    By the way, pirates didn't mark their treasure with the symbol; that would be stupid. They displayed it on their ships to instill fear in their victims before boarding.

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  • [–] 0 points 9 months ago (7 children)

    "i'Ve ReSeArChEd ThIs, trust me bro"

    I haven't researched this, scientists have.

    oh yeah, and I suppose that means you've encountered a culture that doesn't understand the meaning of the skull and crossbones, since you're sooo confident they would think it means treasure?

    I don't think it's possible for me to communicate with you. You're literally too dense to understand that other people don't have the same cultural background and could interpret symbols differently.

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  • [–] 1 point 9 months ago (6 children)

    And you're too dense to understand that literally every human being who's ever lived or ever will is capable of drawing the inherent connection between the skull and crossbones and death, due to the inherent relationship between them.

    Literally Carl Sagan even proposed using the symbol. Is he too dense to understand too?

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  • [–] 0 points 9 months ago (5 children)

    [...] the inherent connection between the skull and crossbones and death

    YES, WHICH IS CONNECTED TO GRAVES, AND THUS VALUABLES

    Which part of this sentence is too complex for you?

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  • [–] 1 point 9 months ago (4 children)

    Not every grave contains valuables, and ones that do would be marked with more elaborate symbols and ornamentation.

    Nobody's tombstone has a skull and crossbones on it, your argument is completely detached from reality

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  • [–] 0 points 9 months ago* (3 children)

    There are literally millions of graves without elaborate symbols or ornamentation, but with valuables. What the fuck?

    And we're talking about signs created by a previous, far more advanced civilization which are made from materials and colors the people we talk about could have never imagined. HOW MUCH MORE ELABORATE AND ORNATE CAN YOU GET?!

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  • [–] 1 point 9 months ago (2 children)

    You're imagining a future civilization will be so devolved that they would have less colors than we do? You're not even approaching this from a standpoint of reality, so I'm done here.

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  • [–] 4 points 9 months ago (2 children)

    The symbol you need is bones. Bones are always associated with death and decay because after death, bones are the thing that’s left.

    I think the only way to get it taken seriously is to include depictions of the site and depictions of what radiation sickness looks like.

    Make like a 100 page comic that starts with someone opening a cask and removing a fuel element, then dying days later, the element leaving contamination, which kills someone else months later, causes birth defects, etc until it's returned.

    You're not going to scare a society into never investigating something, but you might be able to convince them to put it back and bury it again after they realize the predictions are accurate.

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  • [–] 2 points 9 months ago (1 child)

    And what exactly do you make the comic book out of?

    Because "pages" denotes paper and paper will disintegrate long before this place becomes safe

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