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[–] 23 points 10 months ago (7 children)

Does an invasion/attack by one NATO member trigger an Article 5 response against that country by the remainder of NATO?

I am sure that this scenario has been imagined before (ahem Greece v. Turkey)

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  • [–] 28 points 10 months ago (4 children)

    Unless countries like the UK and France are willing to deploy their militaries to fight US soldiers in Greenland, it doesn't matter.

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  • [–] 7 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    Which, indeed, could mean the end of NATO. If it becomes clear that the "alliance" is basically you following the provisions when it serves the US and nobody following them when it doesn't, what's the point of all this legalese?

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  • [–] 5 points 10 months ago

    France is in no condition for any war, they could at most crackdown on tiny New Caledonia but have no strenght to do anything to Sahel states. UK military is in complete shambles. So not only they are unwilling to stand to USA but unable to.

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago

    The UK and France combined would have a problem if there was a single carrier parked in the North Atlantic. They might have a chance if all the US Carriers and subs were 2000 miles away.

    There is nothing anyone except the US can do about a US annexation of Greenland, short of Nuclear weapons.

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  • [–] 22 points 10 months ago (1 child)
  • [–] 39 points 10 months ago (3 children)

    Nah. I wish, but until now Europeans have shown no backbone at all against Trump. When the USA take Greenland, the Danish and Greenlanders are gonna be alone, because that's what happens between NATO members in conflict. The USA, of course, designed it like that.

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  • [–] 13 points 10 months ago

    If only the working class across all nations had a defensive alliance. Oh you wanna go to war? General strike.

    Fuck these imaginary lines on a map. We are a divided and conquered species.

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  • [–] 13 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    Ojalá

    Let them eat each other.

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  • [–] 13 points 10 months ago

    don't threaten me with a good time like that

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  • [–] 3 points 10 months ago
    [–] 4 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    Meanwhile Europe spends its so called independence weapons fund once on American weapons. I fully support the liberation of Greenland from the literal Danish Nazis colonizing it and doing eugenics till this day

    https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2025/jun/29/controversial-danish-parenting-test-separated-greenlandic-mother-children

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  • [–] 0 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    This practice was banned already last year in January. If you think this is grounds to invade a sovereign nation then you've got some twisted world views. Maybe the US should be liberated from it's oppressive anti-abortion, anti-trans government, hm? Sounds like the exact same argument to me. Every country has its problems. If you think invading is going to make anything better, then fuck right off.

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago

    Despite the ban, parenting competency tests are still being used by municipalities as evidence against Greenlandic parents at the National Social Appeals Board, Gjørret says. The Ministry of Social Affairs and Housing denies this, saying that “Since May 1, 2025, the National Social Appeals Board has not used standardised psychological tests for decisions on placement of a child from a Greenlandic family in care outside the home.”

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  • [–] 6 points 10 months ago (27 children)

    Would be one of the most internationally positive outcomes of 2026 if NATO dissolves.

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  • [–] 9 points 10 months ago (26 children)
  • [–] 15 points 10 months ago* (9 children)
  • [–] -5 points 10 months ago (8 children)

    Do you that think those strikes wouldn't have happened without NATO?

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  • [–] 8 points 10 months ago (7 children)

    Yes, but even if it would have happened anyways the world would still be better off without NATO.

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  • [–] -5 points 10 months ago (6 children)

    That's a pretty difficult claim to support because it requires you to make some pretty insane assumptions about what would have happened without NATO.

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  • [–] 7 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    How so? Didn't NATO commit crimes? The fact other criminals exist doesn't mean one fewer criminal gang isn't an improvement.

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  • [–] -2 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    Which NATO country do you think couldn't have committed all those crimes without the rest of NATO?

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  • [–] 7 points 10 months ago

    None of them. I think they are all equally capable of committing the crimes, but a gang is more dangerous than individual criminals acting on their own. So the gang [NATO] disbanding is a net positive.

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  • [–] 5 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    It's not difficult (except for Europeans and their settler counterpart) to understand that the world would be better off without NATO, your whiteness. "If it weren't for NATO then it would've been anyone else!" isn't the convincing claim you think it is. The burden of supporting such chickenshit non-claim is on you.

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  • [–] -1 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    You now all the countries that joined NATO would still exist without it, right?

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  • [–] 3 points 10 months ago

    Yes, what's your point? A terrorist organization ceasing to exist makes it slightly more difficult for European imperialist countries spearheaded by the largest imperialist, European settler-colony to collaborate and carry out their imperialist endeavors.

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  • [–] 25 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (13 children)

    The global south. NATO is the millitary alliance of the world's imperialist powers, a destruction of millitary unity among imperialists would severely weaken imperialism. NATO is "defensive" in the same way the Iron Dome is, it gives imperialist countries free reign to treat the world like something to be looted and plundered without fear of genuine blowback.

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  • [+] -7 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (12 children)

    I’m sure Ukraine, the Baltic trio and Poland agree with you.

    Edit: shit, so many opinions of me based on a less than 15 word comment. I’m sure y’all are fun at parties.

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  • [–] 14 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    Considering they are aligned with the west, who plunder the world's wealth through export of capital and unequal exchange, that's not really surprising. Opposition to NATO is pretty basic among anti-imperialists and the global south in general.

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  • [–] 4 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    God damn it, I hate my education system. I thought NATO was the peacekeeper of the world — a valuable residue of WWII. One sided propaganda-based education developed to fuel a belief in American exceptionalism and nationalistic egoism. This education-level propaganda is pretty effective because you don’t actually know what details to question, and so you grow up with some pretty bold assumptions about how the world works (and don’t even realize it). They had me believing Christopher Columbus was some kind of messiah-explorer too.

    How does this happen? My anti-conspiracy brain wants to believe there’s no such thing as an evil man behind the curtain, twisting his mustache and orchestrating these details like ”meh, we need to make sure all the kids believe in this propaganda such that we have an imperialistic society.” So, short of that, how does this happen so effectively?

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  • [–] 6 points 10 months ago

    2 major factors: In any given society, the mode of production is reinforced by the culture, laws, and ideology of said mode of production. Secondly, people license themselves to believe that whatever they think benefits them is good. Capitalism reinforces ideas like individualism, NATO is good, etc, and we go along with it until our material conditions force us into seeing a new reflection of reality, be it at the workplace, or seeing hard evidence online, being the victim of a bombing campaign, etc. It isn't a man behind the curtain, but capital and the capitalist class.

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  • [–] -5 points 10 months ago (7 children)

    Nato is an imperialist alliance that was created to fight imperalist USSR. Many of the funding countries was still colonizing other countries when it was created. Nato also destroyed Lybia which is the clearest example of it not being just a defensive alliance. Nato also collaborate with Israel who hold the longest current occupation, again has nothing to do with Europe protection.

    The US could leave Nato today, attack a Nato country and Nato will do nothing about it

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  • [–] 6 points 10 months ago (6 children)

    One major correction, the USSR was anti-imperialist, which is why the imperialists collaborated to oppose them. Their colonies were in danger of liberation due to the soviets aiding anti-imperialist movements.

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  • [–] -1 points 10 months ago* (5 children)

    If the USSR was anti-imperialist it wouldn't have been involved in Afghanistan

    edit: Imperialism : a policy of extending a country's power and influence through diplomacy or military force.

    It was imperialism since the goal was to spread socialism to other countries and I have no issues with socialism.

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    That's not what socialists mean by imperialism, by that vibes-based definition defeating Nazi Germany was "imperialism." Imperialism is instead a form of international exploitation characterized by dominance of monopoly finance capital, export of capital, and super-exploiting the global south for super profits. Spreading socialism is anti-imperialist.

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  • [–] -4 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    I stand with the definition I shared which include the socialists definition but goes beyond it

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  • [–] 4 points 10 months ago*

    It does not go beyond how socialists define imperialism, it reduces imperialism to vibes. Imperialism is a material phenomenon with definite characteristics, not whenever a country influences another. When you reduce imperialism to vibes, it certainly makes it more broadly applicable, but you lose sight of how and why it functions, how to stop it, where it comes from, etc. It's like arguing that lions and cheetahs are both cats, and that therefore cheetahs are lions.

    Imperialism, in simplified characteristics, functions as follows:

    -The presence of monopolies which play a decisive role in economic life.

    -The merging of bank capital with industrial capital into finance capital controlled by a financial oligarchy.

    -The export of capital as distinguished from the simple export of commodities.

    -The formation of international monopolist capitalist associations (cartels) and multinational corporations.

    -The domination and exploitation of other countries by militaristic imperialist powers, now through neocolonialism.

    -The territorial division of the whole world among the biggest capitalist powers.

    The USSR had interventionist foreign policy, but it was not dominating other countries nor economically plundering them. In classifying it as imperialist, you run cover for the fact that the USSR was undermining economic plunder of the global south while the west was protecting and expanding that plunder.

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  • [–] 0 points 10 months ago* (1 child)

    Comparing Afghanistan to 500 years of European colonialism is an interesting strategy.

    Especially since it send to ignore the fact Russia became involved in Afghanistan due in part to Western nations sponsoring a series of coups to take control of their former colony in the first place.

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  • [–] 5 points 10 months ago*

    I never said that 500 years of European colonialism is better than what happened in Afghanistan. European colonialism in India alone by the British alone was 100 millions death. Of course European colonialism is the worst thing that ever happened to the world.

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago

    Rare Trump win

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago

    Donald Trump likes this post.

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  • [+] -3 points 10 months ago (2 children)
  • [–] -2 points 10 months ago (4 children)

    Europe may need to end the Russian invasion fast so they only have one front to fight on.

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  • [–] 3 points 10 months ago (3 children)

    Fastest way is for Kiev to cede the 4 oblasts that already want to be a part of the Russian Federation anyways, and NATO neutrality.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago* (2 children)

    Are there other places like these 4 oblasts that want to be a part of the Russian federation?

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  • 18 comments in c/world@lemmy.world view that post
    [–] 23 points 10 months ago (5 children)

    The accelerationist part of my mind kinda hopes that this would happen. The EU needs to get its shit together asap, and this could shove us nicely towards that. Or then we just keep groveling like the vassals that we are.

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  • [–] 45 points 10 months ago

    For real, the EU needs to stop playing up this dumb fantasy that the US is still somehow reliable. Rip off the bandaid. I say this as an American. US is cooked, someone else needs to take the reigns and Europe is the best shot of a group of nations that generally want to take care of their citizens and prioritize human rights.

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    If nato breaks, you'll still be connected to the far right by a big accelerationist horseshoe ♥️

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  • [–] 6 points 10 months ago

    The far right will continue to be a growing problem no matter what happens with EU-US relations. Fascism is capitalism in decay and capitalism will continue to decay until we get rid of it. That's most likely not going to happen any time soon, but it definitely wont happen within an EU bending over backwards to appease the tantrums of a senile manchild being puppeted by five billionaires.

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  • [–] 11 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    Don't give more reasons to Orange, please

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  • [–] 4 points 10 months ago*

    The way things are going, she might be a few numbers down the line to be removed by Trump

    Denmark is set to have elections later this year

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  • [–] 4 points 10 months ago
    [–] 8 points 10 months ago (4 children)

    NATO minus 1 would continue, though. Or maybe also minus Hungary and any other deadweight fascist regimes.

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  • [–] 15 points 10 months ago* (3 children)

    No, it wouldn't. Not unless we end up with a world war.

    Trump attacking Greenland triggers article 5. Denmark calls for NATO to support them against this act of aggression.

    Either NATO steps up and together counters the US, or they collectively pussy out, and from there on every member knows that the alliance is a paper tiger. A promise on paper that means nothing in practice. And Putin immediately invades the Baltics.

    The only version of this where NATO survives without a war is one where the alliance is able to strongarm Trump into backing down from an invasion by threatening war, without actually having to go through with it. But if we've reached the point of the US actually invading a NATO member, I really don't see "backing down" being in the cards.

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 child)

    A note: EU treaties also have a mutual defense clause.

    So at that point, even if NATO stops existing, the EU would help Denmark fight the US.

    Militarily, EU countries won't be able to defend Greenland. It would get occupied by air. But some could make occupation a misery (e.g. "unfortunately a Swedish submarine has again sunk an aircraft carrier").

    If it became a military conflict, the EU would almost certainly ask China for an alliance (and ask to ensure Russian neutrality in return for alliance, which China could ensure since it contols Russia's chip supply), and to prevent the US from moving its Pacific fleet to the Atlantic.

    Even without Chinese involvement, given their attitude to US adventures, South American countries might make it impossible for the US Pacific fleet to move through the Panama canal, which the US would have to open by force. But it might become blocked with scuttled cargo ships and impossible to pass anyway. At which point global trade routes would be badly distorted. The US would likely try using the Suez canal to move its Indian Ocean assets to the Atlantic. EU would likely try to negotiate its closure or force it closed with sabotage - some cargo ships accidentally sinking there to considerably delay the rate of arrival of US vessels to the Mediterranean, so that they could be sunk there (likely to succeed, back yard fight). The US might try sending reinforcements through the Arctic, which they're currently not well prepared for (Canada might or might not obstruct them). Meanwhile, global economic crisis would be hammering everyone, but Eurasia being a large contigous piece of land with the most people on it - damage would likely be reduced there.

    With the US Pacific fleet sufficiently diluted, China would either negotiate the surrender of Taiwan or conquer it.

    Overall, I think the US would get Greenland. In case military activity starts, it would get considerable losses at sea. An exchange of islands would happen. A vast island with 50 thousand people against a small island with 20 million people and globally vital industries.

    In any case, everyone would get an exceptionally bad economic crisis. In the worst case, a world war with nuclear exchanges might start, and might escalate into civilization-ending war.

    The current US administration should be somehow made aware of this. I wonder how to communicate to them a sentence like "the US seizing Greenland means a 100% chance of China seizing Taiwan and a 50% chance of world war (most likely the last of them)".

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago

    I'm really not clear on how you imagine those EU defense agreements would hold up if the NATO defence agreements don't.

    "Please help us, Greenland is under attack!"

    "Uh, no, sorry, none of us are willing to go to war with the US."

    "OK, but what if we repeat the exact same request, but with EU letterhead instead of NATO?"

    "Oh well why the fuck didn't you say so? Our fleets are already on the way!"

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    2 for 1 deal in the eyes of Americans

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago* (1 child)

    According to surveys, US population is against leaving NATO...

    ...and by a narrow margin, was even against the attack on Venezuela. In case of Venezuela, the US population is quite firmly against installing a government on them.

    But the US is not ruled by the US population. It's ruled by the Trump idiocracy.

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  • [–] 3 points 10 months ago

    Remember when Putin started his war in Ukraine and the overwhelming consensus was sanctions that harm the average Russian were necessary despite them not really being responsible. Yeah turns out that logic doesn't apply to Americans because reasons

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  • 1 comment in c/world view that post
    [–] 3 points 10 months ago

    Putin creaming his jeans at the thought

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