So now we can add “directly capturing a sovereign leader” to the list of crap the US has done. So what do you think will actually be “the straw that broke the camels back” for world leaders to actually do something? Think it’ll be significant or something mundane?

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[–] 149 points 10 months ago (29 children)

I hate to say it, but there's no fast answer to that question.

The best answer seems to be what most smart countries are doing right now... slowly unwinding their dependency on the US and finding alternative suppliers for everything critical they need so they can get the leverage they need to criticize and resist. This has the added benefit of isolating the US economically, reducing its currency's ability to influence things.

Over time the US will grow less and less able to throw its weight around, and eventually a tipping point will be reached where picking an ideological fight with the US won't have a major impact. That's when the US will be stopped.

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  • [–] [S] 36 points 10 months ago (10 children)

    Logically that makes sense for an elongated timeline, but that also assumes the US doesn’t ramp up their actions, which sadly seems to be the case. So the question is “what then?”

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  • [–] 69 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (9 children)

    Nations can't ignore the fact that the US has one of the most active militaries in the world. Our Navy is more of less second to none and we have nukes. In the hands of a normal president, we might be fine but you sure as heck know that Trump and his Project 2025 people are just itching to launch one.

    This is a situation where there are no good options. The best you can do is continue political pressure, get other nations to rally behind you in the hopes of creating a strong economic resistance.

    But the real answer is that we, the US citizens, need to fucking take this country back. I hate to say it but protests simply aren't enough anymore.

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  • [–] 21 points 10 months ago (4 children)

    Protests would be a good start

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  • [–] 0 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

    Thank God the protest people are here. They were constantly on Reddit for the last four years saying how Russians need to protest against the dictatorship. Good thing Russians heard that and had the massive protest of Bolotnaya in 2011 and endless protests in the far-east and northern regions in particular. As we know, Russia is a thriving democracy now thanks to the protests. I was wondering when USians are gonna protest away their own tsar.

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  • [–] 4 points 10 months ago (3 children)

    also the worlds largest air force is the US air force. the second largest is the US army's air force iirc

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  • [–] 4 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    Remove the bases in europe and you can only project power with as many you can pile up on an aircraft carrier.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago

    B-2 bombers have a huge range of 11,000 km, that’s extended further by tanker aircraft. They can strike any target in the world. They are better with a fighter escort though, that don’t have that range, and only a single pilot, shortening possible mission time.

    The US also has bases around the world outside of Europe. These could be shifted elsewhere, depending on need. The American military is a phenomenal logistics machine. They can fly and ship immense amounts of materiel and can construct huge bases quickly.

    There are several middle eastern and Asian countries that host large American bases. The big bases built in Europe, especially Germany act as a hub for the ones in Africa and the Middle East. A place for supplies, hospitals, training, etc. in a safe and nice place.

    China is still a fair bit away from having that kind of power projection.

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  • [–] 3 points 10 months ago*

    The best answer seems to be what most smart countries are doing right now… slowly unwinding their dependency on the US and finding alternative suppliers for everything critical they need so they can get the leverage they need to criticize and resist. This has the added benefit of isolating the US economically, reducing its currency’s ability to influence things.

    What Mainland China is trying to do: win over countries alienated or considered hostile by the Americans.

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago

    I think the wealthy will get US/corporate-friendly far-right governments in place in many of these countries before countries are able to isolate the US without collapsing their own economy. Seems to be the way things are going at least (far-right politics gaining support nearly everywhere).

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  • [–] -4 points 10 months ago (15 children)

    I hate to say it, but there’s no fast answer to that question.

    There's is indeed a fast and peaceful answer: vote third parties.

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  • [–] 13 points 10 months ago (7 children)

    Doesn't work in single vote winner-takes-all elections. You need something like RCV first

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  • [–] -1 points 10 months ago (5 children)

    Doesn’t work in single vote winner-takes-all elections.

    If a third party get 70% of the votes they don't end up in power?

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  • [–] 9 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    What happens in reality is they get 10% of the second most credible party and Maga wins.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (4 children)

    Remember kids, in first past the post a vote for third party is a vote for republicans.

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  • [–] 0 points 10 months ago (3 children)

    Stop spreading non sense and propaganda.

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    Fucking educate yourself. This is why the world thinks Americans are fucking stupid. So many of us don't understand basic fuckin civics like this chucklefuck right here not knowing jack shit about spoilers. Half of Americans too fuckin dumb to know they're carrying ruspublican water.

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  • [–] 55 points 10 months ago

    If other counties boycotted instead of caving into demands, that would have an influence.

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  • [–] 81 points 10 months ago (17 children)

    It might have already happened...

    Capturing a foreign leader you're not at war with like this is a huge fucking deal, but it hasn't even been 24 hrs yet, we can't act like there won't be a response.

    Not anything overt, but our election system is sloppy as fuck.

    Why wouldn't foreign governments start using all the loopholes to pay (relatively) nothing to limit his powers in midterms and get rid of him in the presidential? A couple million thru a PAC isn't even really breaking any laws, and compared to the cost of the chaos from trump, it's a no brainer decision.

    It's why turnout for primaries is so important. We have to ensure that the people who make it to the general are going to be good in office.

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  • [–] 52 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (13 children)

    Friendly nations do not meddle in each others elections. Russia did to USA because they are NOT a friendly nation, and to sow discord. Israel does it to USA also because they are not a friendly nation, they are focused 100% on their own agenda, and that includes ensuring USA supports it.
    Trump/MAGA has already intervened in elections in for instance EU, and that's because USA is no longer a friendly nation to EU.
    But I seriously doubt most of USA's traditional allies will meddle in USA's election, because it's just not something you do as a civilized country, because it violates that country's sovereignty.

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  • [–] 17 points 10 months ago (3 children)

    If you play by the rules while your enemy doesn't, you'll be destroyed. Machiavelli said as much. So USA's traditional allies have to start playing dirty to survive.

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    I would be OK with giving Russia a taste of their own medicine. But it's an area where I think we need to be very careful, and not participate too strongly in a race to the bottom.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (8 children)

    Friendly nations do not meddle in each others elections.

    A naive view. US has always promoted Atlanticist candidates, and has complete control over EU parliament appointees who are all pro NATO, and especially pro NATO subservience. That people view this as the will of the people, and the opposite, election interference is the greatest trick the devil ever pulled off.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (6 children)

    Could you elaborate on the complete control over EU parliament appointees?

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (2 children)
  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (1 child)

    I'm assuming the same until shown otherwise with sufficient sources

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago*

    The pro-antlanticism is the giveaway. I've never heard that term used outside of Russian propaganda.

    Edit: hot goddamn the dudes profile is unhinged. I think we found Putin's lemmy account because holy shit this dude sucks Russia off hard.

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  • [–] -1 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (2 children)

    NATO approved parties select a list of pro NATO candidates who will be appointed to EU parliament based on CIA/Atlanticist tolerance/support for that party. There are 4 leftist representatives from Greece in EU whose party is divided about NATO, and who were suppressed in last election because of it. I'm unsure if the representatives specifically vote against all NATO BS Russophobia. Among NATO member nations AfD leads a group that include Bulgaria's revival party (17 as a group). (Europe of Sovereign Nations). Both of these parties serve US interests of promoting divisiveness in EU. AfD has had direct boosting/interference for its behalf by Trump and Musk, and if they are ever able to have influence, NATO (performative rather than substantive) opposition will likely be rewarded by US, while simultaneously increasing US purchases. Orban's party has 10 seats, and like other right wing parties, rationality towards Russia is an electoral asset that permits other oppression.

    There are 419 absolute NATO cronies in EU parliament, and the election process ensures that the most devoted to NATO subjugation are appointed, because the CIA rewards the party for input on their list.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (1 child)

    Sources? That's a lot of claims without anything backing it up

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  • [–] -1 points 10 months ago

    Every single action, decision, and media content being pro Atlanticist is your cue that something is wrong. That CIA only interferes in Latin America or CIS states, but would leave its colonies alone is the absurdity that you would need to prove instead of the obvious reality.

    To answer OP's question. Idiots need to remove their bodysnatcher parasite that makes them agree with all US lies.

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  • [–] 5 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    You're right this will (or should anyway) invite a major international response. But it won't be attacking our elections.

    It'll be in international politics and economics.
    Were I in charge of another nation, I'd immediately end all diplomatic ties with us. Deporting all US embassy/consolate staff and diplomats. Possibly even visa holders. I'd also end whatever exports my nation made to the US. Buying the goods from my nation's companies myself. If my nations banks had any money of US nationals, it would be frozen.

    But that's just me. We'll see what they decide to do.

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  • [–] 39 points 10 months ago (5 children)

    I think it has to be a major financial crash and/or a big war

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  • [–] 17 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    I'm genuinely curious what would happen if the US lost nearly all of their foreign investors and all/nearly all of their major trading partners. (I understand that this is highly unlikely, but so was the thought that another world war would happen and happen in less than 50 years. I'm also tired of holding my breath on these things...)

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    The US as a country has vast natural resources, a lot of space, and a large educated population. There are two very long coasts, enabling trade by sea across the globe.

    Investors fleeing and trade collapsing would lead to a major crisis and necessitate restructuring the economy. It’s important to remember that money leaving the country, doesn’t mean the physical assets like buildings, machines, trained workforce, and infrastructure leave as well. Production of goods for export would lead to too much supply of some things, with a lack of imported goods.

    Lots of international trade could be replaced by domestic production. The US might actually be able to pull off an economy closed off to much of the world better than any other country. The reindustrialization and transformation of the economy would take a couple of years to a decade, with lots of hardship.

    Still the US produces so much food and has an overproduction of pretty much all agricultural goods, that widespread hunger is unlikely. The agricultural sector already depends on subsidies snd regulation. So the bureaucracy and infrastructure is already in place to keep it going and steer it.

    Culturally Americans are used to dynamic markets, adapting to change, and entrepreneurial spirit. That’s a further asset for being able to transform and economy.

    Finally because of the easy access to the oceans and a powerful navy to protect their trade, the US can be very flexible regarding who they trade with. New tradingpartners will show up quickly.

    Of course this discussion is a bit moot without talking about the world political stage this happens in.

    tl;dr there would a shortage of goods, economic turmoil, no famine, stable energy production, likely a swift recovery

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago*

    This reads like chatgpt. And is wildly unrealistically optimistic. And is wrong about American culture in a fundamental way and is ignoring bird flu, screw worm, and the upcoming dust bowl from mono culture industrial farming practices. Millions would die and it would take well over a decade just to ramp up manufacturing to make up for loss of imported goods. The country would ostensibly survive but it would look and act a lot more like Russia than it already does.

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  • [–] 36 points 10 months ago (4 children)

    For starters, not relying on US payment processors.

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  • [–] 17 points 10 months ago

    This is realistically the best thing we can do as outsiders. Find other ways and don’t input foreign money into the war coffers.

    I’m quite proud of the Canadian dip in tourism and how nearly all of the produce that came from the US at my grocery store now comes from Mexico and Peru.

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago

    I've never understood why no country does this yet. They have the capital. Even when the US swings its dick around and sanctions ICC judges because they actually do the job they've been assigned to do no one does shit. Just let's it happen.

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  • [–] 33 points 10 months ago (7 children)

    complete worldwide boycott of american products. America is run by oligarchs who only care about money. They'd fold overnight.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (1 child)

    That’s impossible at the moment. The USA dominates the software industry. No modern economy can run without relying on American software. Replacing that would be hard, maybe impossible.

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago

    Take the first steps. Here are things you can do right now:

    1. Stop using Microsoft Office especially stop using Office 365 and switch to Libreoffice.
    2. Stop using Windows and switch to Linux.
    3. Stop using Reddit and switch to Lemmy (for other people, not you since you're already here)
    4. Cancel your OpenAI/ChatGPT/Copilot subscriptions if you have those.
    5. Most importantly stop using Twitter if you use that and urge everyone else to do likewise. Bluesky I really like but it's technically based in the US too but rewarding non-rightwing companies is like positive reinforcement. I haven't seen enough people talk about using both the carrot and the stick. There's also Mastodon which is great but some people feel it's more for "techy" type people.
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  • [–] -1 points 10 months ago* (2 children)

    Yea but to do that you need decent channels to coordinate and you all deleted all your accounts and the network you built with it. It would take 10 years just to recreate it.

    Let's just go back to hyper focusing on AI slop

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  • [–] 33 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    Time. A regime as dysfunctional as this can't go on indefinitely... Like, it is physically impossible for it to think far enough ahead for it to be resilient enough to last. Unfortunately, a lot of good people will suffer before then.

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  • [–] 26 points 10 months ago (3 children)

    At this point, every single country should be embargoing the US. It's well past that point that we cut them off from the world stage entirely economically.

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  • [–] 5 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    This stupid regime wants to spur domestic manufacturing. What better way to help than to cut us off?

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  • [–] 25 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    Realistically, global trade drying up. Canada, Mexico, the EU, and others just refusing to do business with the US. Or possibly, making deals on a state-by-state basis, such as exchanging with California and New York, while ignoring Texas. By doing something like that, foreign nations can help prop up anti-conservative states, while bleeding conservatives lily white.

    Mutual military agreements, such as retooling NATO to exclude the US and incorporating Canada, Mexico, and Taiwan might happen as well. The US has ceded their mutual exchange with Taiwan, other powers like India would like to have those chips. Maybe the EU outright allying with Ukraine, to remove Russia from play and to secure Ukraine's grain, oil, and expertise on warfare.

    ...In short, it would be a couple decades of work to stop the Turdpublican agenda through diplomatic pressure. Probably around a decade if WW3 or a 2nd American Civil War happens.

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  • [–] 8 points 10 months ago*

    Canada, Mexico, the EU, and others just refusing to do business with the US.

    Seeing how the EU is still doing business with Russian while it's at war with Ukraine it's hard to imagine such a scenario. I didn't run the numbers but AFAIK the EU has no realistic alternative for a lot of things, starting with energy again all the way to high-end chips (CPU and GPU) and services, including software. There could be theoretical alternatives, e.g. FLOSS software and their services on lower-end chips but that would require some pretty fundamental changes.

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  • [–] 44 points 10 months ago (20 children)

    This isn't the first time the US has done

    “directly capturing a sovereign leader”

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  • [–] 16 points 10 months ago

    Importantly other countries aren't that mad about it either. I saw some posts about Trump making comments that seemed to suggest that mexico and canada could be targeted in the future for intervention related to drugs, so I went to canadian news sites to see what was up. The canadian government is basically like, "I'm not angry, I'm disappointed" and mostly because it goes against the norms of polite imperialism.

    I won't link to her twitter account, but here is the statement:

    Alt text:

    The Hon. Anita Anand Minister of Foreign Affairs

    Since 2019, when Canada closed its embassy in Venezuela, we have refused to recognize any legitimacy of the Maduro regime and opposed its repression of the Venezuelan people, including the persecution of dissenters and particularly political leaders opposed to the regime.

    In keeping with our long-standing commitment to upholding the rule of law and democracy, Canada calls on all parties to respect international law and we stand by the people of Venezuela and their desire to live in a peaceful and democratic society.

    Canada is engaging with its international partners and monitoring developments closely.

    Canada stands ready to assist Canadians in need through our consular officials and embassy in Bogotá, Colombia.

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  • [–] 41 points 10 months ago (16 children)

    No, this is different and completely unprecedented.

    We went into a foreign country, abducted their leader, and brought him back to America to be tried under our justice system for laws he was never subject to for crimes he almost had nothing to do with.

    I'd love to see a source for America abducting the leader of a country we're not at war with, and bringing them to America for trial.

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  • [–] 18 points 10 months ago (3 children)
  • [–] 27 points 10 months ago*

    While the above poster is missing the particulars, this still is unprecedented - panama and the US were at war, and Noriega surrendered to US forces before being taken to the US. As far as I'm aware, brazen kidnapping like just happened with Maduro really is a new low for the US.

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  • [–] 6 points 10 months ago (4 children)

    I think we did that to Hawaii. And now it’s a state.

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  • [–] 11 points 10 months ago (3 children)

    Nah, Hawaii was an invasion, I believe the Queen was travelling to DC.

    She left Hawaii as a queen and when she got to Hawaii to negotiate a treaty, she was told Hawaii was already an American territory

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  • [–] 9 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    The close enough for me. Going in to countries and fucking about then leaving them worse is kinda what we do unfortunately. Well I guess it’s what all countries who can do as well.

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  • [+] 4 points 10 months ago (5 children)
  • [–] 6 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    Approximately 24,000 troops descended upon Panama in December 1989, beginning a weekslong siege of the country that scattered the government and military officials.

    That's an invasion, not a kidnapping...

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