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[–] 132 points 10 months ago (13 children)
  • [–] 75 points 10 months ago (5 children)

    Should not have allowed them in the first place.

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  • [+] -6 points 10 months ago (4 children)

    Thus is the old debate between Allow list versus Deny list.

    On an Allow list system, everything is forbiden exceot what's explicitly allowed, while on a Deny list, everything is allowed except what's explicitly forbidden.

    Aviation companies work mostly on Allow list system, meaning even small changes and improvements require certification before it's approved for use. If this system was in use by car companies, the consequences would be similar, only 2 or 3 companies worldwide, making a few models each, all of them much more expensive than what they are now.

    I'm glad that the automotive industry works mostly on a Deny list system. It keeps the barrier to entry lower for new manufacturers, innovation is faster and competition keeps prices reasonable.

    Occasionally, issues like this pop up, requiring a ban, but in this industry I prefer this than the alternative.

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  • [–] 7 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    Honest question - why do you prefer this?

    There's nothing bleeding edge in cars these days except for security and drive train features. I have 2 cars - new EV and 15 year old economy Toyota and honestly aside from drive train itself there's nothing I can find in the new car that makes me feel like my old car is missing something important.

    Car technology has stagnated so bad that "deny list" approach makes no sense since the innovation potential is so incredibly poor. We lose safety and uniform UX for what? Fashion? It's kinda stupid.

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  • [–] 3 points 10 months ago

    If this system was in use by car companies, the consequences would be similar, only 2 or 3 companies worldwide, making a few models each, all of them much more expensive than what they are now.

    And, as it happens, those 2 or 3 companies not really following the regulations, practically employing inspectors instead. Like Boeing.

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago

    EU has an allow system, which is the reason the CyberTrucks is not on the EU market. It would not be able to pass the safety requirements if they attempted.

    On a similar note, the EU also has an allow system for all vehicles already on the road. Every single vehicle is inspected every two years, with the first check for new cars being after 4 years. This system keeps older rusty cars away from the roads.

    Tesla's other models have an issue passing even the first test. It's the brand with the highest failing rate of all car brands.

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  • [–] 29 points 10 months ago (6 children)

    Bright headlights and combined brake/turn signals too please

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  • [–] 23 points 10 months ago* (2 children)

    Don't get me started on that, stupid direct led brakes lights should be outright illegal. They literally blind every following car behind, specially if the windshield is dirty or foggy.

    How those damn things got approved in the first place is beyond my understanding corruption.

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago

    I've heard complaints about led highbeams plenty of times, but this is the first time I've heard it about rear breaking lights. I personally have never been blinded by those.

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  • [–] 3 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    The glaring headlights have the opposite solution here: more technology. While auto-high beams are becoming common, we need the next step of active matrix headlights. They really are marvelous!

    For me the active matrix headlights are still new enough that every time I’m amazed watching the dark spot in my headlight beams move to keep the oncoming traffic out of the glare.

    Yeah this is kind of expensive but it’s getting the point that we really need it everywhere

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (1 child)

    Banning the root cause seems a lot simpler and cheaper

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago

    But the root cause is banned. People are already supposed to click off their high beams for nearby traffic. Those LED replacement bulbs do say “not for headlights” because they’re not allowed in standard projector housings, lifted truck are required to point their headlights down. But the problem continues to get worse despite each scenario being banned.

    The problem is how do you make the bans effective? Or how do you get people to do the right thing no matter how self_centered they are?

    But tech solutions work over years

    • fixtures made for LEDs may be insanely bright but also better focussed to reduce glare
    • auto-dimming means you’re not relying on some idiot to pay attention and do the right thing
    • active matrix takes that a step further

    In the meantime I’m thinking of getting those yellow lenses polarized driving glasses to see if it makes a difference

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  • [–] 224 points 10 months ago* (25 children)

    As they should, stupid over complicated and absolutely failure ridden unnecessary design. kinda like this poorly worded statement

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  • [–] 68 points 10 months ago (23 children)

    Musk nearly bankrupted Tesla when he insisted that the door handles must be flush after stealing the company from its original founders.

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  • [–] 59 points 10 months ago* (21 children)

    I mean, "stealing" is a strong word. Elon bought them out, and they're both enjoying a net worth in the hundreds of million.

    What's more disturbing about Elon's tenure as head of the company is how social media manipulation, insider trading, and blatant SEC violations can pump a company's valuation into the stratosphere.

    Marc Tarpenning and Martin Eberhard both continued to contribute advances in engineering that far exceeded the Tesla project. But they'll never have the kind of easy credit Elon secured through politics and media manipulation. So don't expect to see them included among the ranks of "billionaire" any time soon.

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  • [–] 32 points 10 months ago* (7 children)

    "Bought them out" is a weak word too though. He placed loyal people on the board and had them vote to give him control of the company.

    And now he has been having them vote to give him absurd unseen before "salaries"

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  • [–] 12 points 10 months ago (6 children)

    He placed loyal people on the board and had them vote to give him control of the company.

    He could place loyalists on the board because he bought a controlling interest in the company.

    And now he has been having them vote to give him absurd unseen before “salaries”

    The latest compensation package has virtually unattainable sales targets. And the compensation is almost entirely in equity that assumes a monumental increase in stock valuation.

    If he can manage it, I'd be tempted to say he earned it, except I know he'll only "hit" the target by lying and market manipulation that will collapse as soon as he hits his mark.

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  • [–] 7 points 10 months ago* (5 children)

    Like having space x buy thousands of cyber cucks?

    Or donating those shitty dangerous trucks to the Vegas police?

    Or when his Canadian dealerships sold themselves hundreds of cars on the last week of government subsidies?

    He’s gonna cheat to get his trillion, brag about having the biggest number, and try and fuck the country even more to keep him powerful. These robber barons need to be stopped and imprisoned bodies they can harm the rest of us any more.

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago (4 children)

    He’s gonna cheat to get his trillion

    He's going to try. Even then, the bar is higher than just nibbling at the margins. And everything is stacked on the shoulders of an overall positive outlook for the US economy in total. He can't insource all his car sales in any practical sense. And he can't use options markets to outrun the perpetual gaggle of Tesla bears nipping at his heels. He also can't reliably expect Congress to bail him out when he's made this many enemies inside both the White House and Congress.

    That's not to say he won't get a piece of paper with "$1T" written on it from his company at some point. But nothing in the Tesla financials suggests he will have anywhere to cash it.

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (3 children)

    Yeah, thanks for clarifying my intent. I’m pretty sure he’s going to ride whatever is left of this AI bubble in finance to get his $1T number. He’ll never ever be able to cash out, but I don’t think he cares about that, he wants the power that comes with the number. It’d be nice to see the lending market smarten up and tell him to pound sand. I guess he has to fail for them to stop though. Money talks louder then Nazi salutes.

    I worry he’s going to fuck out space industry in the process of fleecing NASA though. Hopefully there are enough adults in charge to stop that, but until the midterms (if they happen) I don’t think congress will be doing anything but infighting about the speaker position and hand wringing over the expected red losses.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago* (2 children)

    It’d be nice to see the lending market smarten up and tell him to pound sand.

    Because the stock valuation has inflated so far beyond the company's actual revenues, its been pushed into a number of major index funds and become a "must buy" for 401ks and other retail investment accounts. This creates a kind-of self-fulfilling overvaluation as a result. I don't think there's any real market mechanism that will devalue Tesla in the near future. Kicking the Tesla tentpole means shaking up the entire S&P 500. Even the mega-hedge funds with the ability to do it don't have a strong monetary incentive to try.

    At the same time, the kind of stock growth Elon is expected to deliver in the next five years is astronomical relative to their core position. Either he's going to Tulip Mania his company again or he's going to fall far short of the mark.

    I worry he’s going to fuck out space industry in the process of fleecing NASA though.

    NASA's been a contractor's boondoggle since at least Reagan. The Challenger Disaster can be linked directly back to an outsourcing scandal that was covered up and buried under Reagan in order to keep Thiokol Chemical Corporation (now a subsidiary of Northrop Grumman) financially insulated.

    I would argue that SpaceX exists precisely because NASA has become a budget of money to be siphoned from. The Space Industry was fucked in the 80s and never really recovered, leading to our reliance on Soyuz rockets for much of the Bush Era and creating an environment at Boeing so toxic that we've largely lost our ability to do space flight domestically.

    For all the talk of Moon bases and Mars missions, it seems the real money in aerospace is just spewing up endless waves of cheap disposable satellites for commercial communications. That's going to be the limit of US space technology for the foreseeable future.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (1 child)

    I’m sure most mutual funds are invested in musk companies, but unless they’re terrible hedge funds or something none of them should have more than a few percent in them. I was more speaking of the lenders who enable Musk’s bullshit like buying Twitter or fucking around with our elections.

    And yeah, I guess I should have said finish off our space industry, but yeah it’s been screwed since the shuttle era I guess.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago

    none of them should have more than a few percent in them

    Tesla makes up 2.3% of the S&P 500 and 4.5% of NASDAQ. Then you have business downstream of Tesla - Luminar Technologies sells the majority of it's LIDAR systems to Tesla, Hertz's EV fleet is plurality Tesla, Panasonic co-owns Gigafactory 1.

    I was more speaking of the lenders who enable Musk’s bullshit like buying Twitter or fucking around with our elections.

    They do it so they can be first in the door for future IPOs. JP Morgan has been a close ally of Musk's for decades. And he's repaid them with numerous opportunities to resell their debt. The Twitter loan was a small price to pay by comparison.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago* (12 children)

    With any luck Elon with be in jail in a few years when Democrats try to prove we shouldn't abandon this socioeconomic system entirely.

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  • [–] 16 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    That would require a backbone not seen in democrats in generations. I'd bet money on him being a free man and never seeing the inside of a cell.

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  • [–] 4 points 10 months ago (8 children)

    That will never, ever, ever happen. Dems love an oligarch just as much, if not more, than republicans. China is the only country that prosecutes wealthy criminals.

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  • [–] 7 points 10 months ago (4 children)

    China is the only country that prosecutes wealthy criminals.

    Unfortunately they also lockup anyone they just kind of don't like for any arbitrary reason.

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  • [–] 0 points 10 months ago* (1 child)

    I was pointing out a difference in the way America does things. If I started listing things both have in common, the list would literally never end. Besides, the similarity is surface-level. China’s economy isn’t propped up by for-profit prisons

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago

    Nor does China suffer the same recidivism rates, carceral rates, or parole rates that the US has. Nor does China accrue debt for prisoners tonthe tune of hundreds of dollars a day that they owe when they get out.

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    Well, then I hope you guys are ready for a revolution unless you're fine with a Blade Runner esc hellscape.

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    Don't worry, we won't get a Blade Runner-esc hellscape.

    Because Blade Runner for a movie had to give us a fascinating world that was interesting that even as a hellscape there was a "Man, it'd be cool to be there."

    No, our hellscape is going to be more like how fast food restaurants all look the same now, the corporate architecture version of taupe agreed to by committee.

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  • [–] [S] 28 points 10 months ago

    I have long observed that moving parts, particularly involving motors, are destined to give me grief as a car ages. The difference is that little motorized interior luxuries aren't going to prevent people from pulling my unconscious body out of a burning wreck, while these door handles have for dozens of people

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  • [–] 50 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    Next can we outlaw touchscreens? I'm guessing they are far more dangerous in the end.

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  • [–] 40 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    i think often about that GM and Volvo paid Virginia Tech a lot of money to help them design a safe touchscreen infotainment center and after years of research the researchers basically reached the conclusion "there's no safe way to put a touchscreen in a car" and now we all have touchscreens in our cars

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  • [–] 3 points 10 months ago

    I mean, there's also no safe touchscreen on a mobile phone, and one would think a main personal mobile communication device should have the least disruptable user interface possible.

    A stylus makes some sense, it's a more convenient tool for drawing on a screen. But touchscreens must die.

    I'm trying to dial someone or do anything at all in a dark place, I have to look with my eyes at a burning screen (notably with some crappy flat design of all UI elements, as is custom today) and try to hit it with my fingers. My fingers notably come from factory without backlight or auto-aim.

    I could just remember which key is which, and rely on my tactile feeling to find them.

    I'm trying to do anything at all in frosty weather (that kind when you feel like scratching your skin, normal winter, minus 10 Celsius is enough to feel that), I have to take off my glove and try to hit whatever with my fingers which become obviously clumsier under such temperatures.

    And I can't simultaneously do something and look at the display, because I'm poking my fingers at that display to do something!

    And it's easier to do something you didn't intend.

    I hope everything with a touchscreen dies as a consumer good, similarly to young nuclear scientist kits for toddlers, asbestos roof tiles, lead paint, you get the idea. Some things are bad.

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  • [–] 46 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    Good, it's such an incredibly stupid design. Literally no one was bothered by a slight handle for better UX.

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  • [–] 40 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    Can China ban retina burning headlights, rear facing floodlights and aftermarket exhausts now?

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (1 child)

    Don't ban aftermarket exhausts completely, just the ones that optimize for loudness or dirtier air.

    I'd like to see devices that detect when a car is running too rich or lean (bad cases I can smell right away, so it should be detectable at a range), along with enforcement and seizing vehicles where they deliberately mess with those, especially if there's a switch or function present that can switch between legal and illegal modes to pass emissions tests and then go back to spewing out unburnt fuel or a much higher number of nitrous oxide compounds.

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  • [–] 51 points 10 months ago* (21 children)

    Is it really that hard to make one of those recessed handles with a mechanical linkage instead of an electric one?

    Seems like the real issue is the electric door latch itself, not the style of handle.

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  • [–] 48 points 10 months ago (8 children)

    Tesla whined about it citing all the crap they’d have to work around in their design in order to make a normal mechanical linkage. Funny how no other upper tier manufacturer has trouble with all the power windows and window power pre-offsetting for interference fits. They manage to have mechanical linkages.

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  • [–] 40 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    Yeah I'm not shocked the major car company with the least amount of experience in mechanical engineering had that issue.

    Give that to a team of 90's Honda engineers and they'd have it done by lunch with a price tag a 1/3rd of the Tesla mechanism.

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  • [–] 14 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    Oh those Honda engineers would have laughed and laughed. "Aluminum chassis and plastic body support?!" I can hear them say through hysterics.

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  • [–] -1 points 10 months ago (4 children)

    That doesn't follow. The 3 and y both have mechanical handles that only close flush by a spring for aerodynamics. Literally every manufacturer has copied that in at least one model.

    Only the s, x, and CT have retractable handles, and it's mostly Chinese cars that copy that.

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  • [–] 9 points 10 months ago (2 children)
  • [–] 3 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    You’re both right: this is where we need more precise language

    Model 3 and Y, most Teslas, have mechanical handles. However all Teslas have an electronic latch mechanism

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  • [–] [S] 18 points 10 months ago

    These recessed handles usually have some sort of fallback. For me, I don't want rescuers to have a single second of uncertainty of how to open my car. They should be able to quickly yank the door open, not fumble for some recessed/hidden button. Every second counts.

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  • [–] 18 points 10 months ago

    The handles themselves freeze down and won't pop up to allow someone to actually open the door. Freezing rain and sleet and prevent even traditional style handles are known to freeze up and stop working.

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  • [–] -1 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (9 children)

    Yeah, it's hard. How is it going to come out while there's nothing to grab on to?

    E: I dunno who's downvoting me or why. I'm vehemently opposed to electronic door handles of any kind. But if you're going to have door handles that protrude and retract, they're gonna have to necessarily have a motor to push out against ice.

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  • [–] 8 points 10 months ago (7 children)

    You press on it, tons of Chinese cars already do this.

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  • [–] -2 points 10 months ago* (6 children)

    How does it come out when you press on it?

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago*

    For the model 3 and Y with the mechanical handles you press on one end to get the other to pop out

    If it’s iced over, you can press on the other end and there’s a little room to effectively rock it back and forth a bit to break the ice. I live in Massachusetts, I park outside, and this is my third winter with the car, and I’ve only had to do this twice. It worked each time with minimal effort

    I have no idea what the model s and x do with the electronic self-presenting handles. They ought to have a defroster or some sort of vibrator to do similar. Not that it would help in an accident

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  • [–] 25 points 10 months ago

    When even China has to ban your product due to safety concerns, you've probably made some seriously bad design choices somewhere along the line.

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  • [–] 39 points 10 months ago

    Musk makes a product so shitty even China is like, hold up.

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  • [–] 15 points 10 months ago
    [–] 9 points 10 months ago

    As should the rest of the world.

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  • [–] 26 points 10 months ago (23 children)

    Must be nice having a functional government

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  • [–] 29 points 10 months ago (3 children)

    Americans are going to mandate retractable handles in response

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  • [–] 18 points 10 months ago (16 children)

    I don't think China or the US would be called nice in this regard.

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  • [–] 14 points 10 months ago (15 children)

    Well, the US is very nice to corporations which is why they’re often left to self regulate, are regulated by former industry insiders, or are barely regulated through fines and settlements

    So yeah I suppose in this regard China is not being nice but being nice doesn’t effectively regulate corporations. This is in fact a good example of a functional government doing its job

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  • [+] -6 points 10 months ago (14 children)

    Your original statement said must be nice as in it must be nice for the governed. Not that the country was being nice. The governments of both countries are complete garbage. Must be nice to have this one thing work is different than either being a functional government for its people.

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  • [–] 11 points 10 months ago (13 children)

    Well it is in fact nice for the governed when their governments enforce good regulations. I’m not sure what’s in dispute here, do you not think it’s nice to have a proper regulation in place that will be followed?

    Your original statement called the US and China not nice so I just followed your grammar logic 🤷‍♀️

    Are you just desperate to have us acknowledge that these countries have serious flaws too?

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago* (12 children)

    I apologize if my original statement was not clear, I was also following suit and meant nice for the individual. Essentially I was saying one governmental nicety doesn't make up for the country's govt being a cluster fuck. Having the government perform one thing functional is not the same as a functional government. That was my point.

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  • [–] 3 points 10 months ago (11 children)

    China and America are perfectly functional governments despite their flaws. Are you just looking for an opportunity to dunk on them?

    In the area of automative regulation America is the only developed nation to have increased traffic deaths over the past decade or so. You can go verify that fact.

    So when it comes to seeing China implement a basic automative regulation, it is indeed a “must be nice” situation.

    The problem with your original statement is that it’s stupid and patronizing

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  • [–] -1 points 10 months ago (10 children)

    No it seems the problem is you appear to think because there are a few positives, the governments are functional. So I guess it depends on what you mean by functional. You are welcome to disagree, I was just clearing up what I meant. There are people that say at least Hitler made the trains run on time. I wouldn't say functional though.

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  • [–] 3 points 10 months ago (9 children)

    Would you say that a government is functional if a highly biased university research project spanning 15 years determined that over 95% of people approved of their government, even accounting for the possible ways these numbers could be skewed?

    https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2020/07/long-term-survey-reveals-chinese-government-satisfaction/

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  • [–] 0 points 10 months ago (8 children)

    I would not trust any research that states 95% of people agree on almost anything, that's extremely unlikely in any situation ever. Any study saying 95% of people approve of their government of all things sounds like coersion, faking, or simply a culture that fosters saying something regardless of truth. If you asked thousands of people in Russia if they approve of the government, they'll say yes. But they aren't being truthful. I'm betting they didn't interview certain groups as well, as those folks are being killed by the Chinese govt. So yes one study saying one thing is definitely not enough to overcome the hurdles.

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  • [–] 4 points 10 months ago (7 children)

    You just blindly reject Harvard research because deep down inside you know better, right?

    It must actually boggle your mind that people can honestly approve of their government even when that government isn’t doing anything special

    Did you know around 80% of republicans support Trump? That’s about the same % of Russians who agree w Putin. You can go look that up.

    Your intuitive knowledge is worthless

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  • [–] 0 points 10 months ago (6 children)

    Yea, I'm sure all those folks in Hong Kong that were rioting approve of their new government overlords. I'm sure the Uyghurs would say they're doing just a fine job. The article even mentions they didn't ask laborers. I don't disagree that they asked those people and they did respond that way. However whether people answer truthfully about their authoritarian government is a completely different thing. So yes, I do question this one single survey done of a small sample size and there's really no way for them to account for everything. How many other peer reviewed studies do you have besides this one?

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  • [–] 3 points 10 months ago (5 children)

    There are 1.3 billion people in China and you can read the report to see their satisfaction with a variety of metrics from the indifference of local officials to their participation in public health programs, over the past however many years

    I hope you understand that even a 5% disapproval rate for something in China is still somewhere near 70 million people. There are only 11 million uyghurs in China. Do you not see how if you add up all the people who approve and disapprove you get the same ballpark numbers the study is claiming?

    Just do the math lol

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  • [–] 0 points 10 months ago (4 children)

    Likewise 30,000 people out of 1.3 billion is not going to be representative. Again do you have any other peer-reviewed studies or are you just basing your entire beliefs of one small sample study?

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  • [–] 3 points 10 months ago* (3 children)

    That’s not how statistics works at all. A sample of 30,000 people out of 1,300,000,000 is in fact highly representative. Please go look up how sample sizes work because there is no way to have a meaningful conversation if you don’t understand basic statistics.

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  • [–] 0 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    So no other peer reviewed studies then? You're a one article is absolute kind of guy? Good luck out there.

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    There is a large demand for Teslas in China believe it or not. Very possible this is just motivated by trying to favor Chinese automakers more so than out of genuine safety concerns.

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  • [+] 10 points 10 months ago (2 children)
  • [–] 5 points 10 months ago
    [–] 4 points 10 months ago

    More great news fot Tesla stock!

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