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[–] 193 points 10 months ago (9 children)

“My goal is to eliminate every line of C and C++ from Microsoft by 2030,” Microsoft distinguished engineer Galen Hunt wrote in a recent LinkedIn post.

“Our strategy is to combine AI and Algorithms to rewrite Microsoft’s largest codebases,” he added. “Our North Star is ‘1 engineer, 1 month, 1 million lines of code.’”

Well, I expect it'll be exciting, one way or another.

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  • [–] 47 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    You know it's going to be successful when they go back to using antiquated productivity measurements like measuring based on lines of code in a time frame. We all know AI is fucking spectacular at generating overly verbose code.

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  • [+] 15 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (3 children)
  • [–] 5 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    Enshittification does not mean making things suck in general. It specifically means the business model of making a good product for users, then making the product bad for users and good for advertisers or data purchasers or retailers or whatever, and then when you have a captured market, making it worse for everyone to squeeze more money faster.

    Microsoft is not doing this. They might be sucking, and making a worse product, but it’s not following the enshittification playbook.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago

    I always love how business bros use the term "Algorithm(s)" (and now also "AI") as if that was just a magic incantation or something that you just switch on and it immediately solves whatever problem you might have.

    All that's needed is that the wizard comes up with the right spell and then everything just works and the business is generating infinite money!

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    [–] 95 points 10 months ago

    I look forward to the total and complete collapse of Microsoft in the computer marketplace.

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  • [–] 76 points 10 months ago (8 children)

    Plans move to Rust, with help from AI

    As if AI could handle the mountains of checks Rust has you account for.

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  • [–] 5 points 10 months ago* (4 children)

    While I agree that I don't think that an LLM is going to do the heavy lifting of making full use of Rust's type system, I assume that Rust has some way of overriding type-induced checks. If your goal is just to get to a mechanically-equivalent-to-C++ Rust version, rather than making full use of its type system to try to make the code as correct as possible, you could maybe do that. It could provide the benefit of a starting place to start using the type system to do additional checks.

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  • [–] 8 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    The safety designed into Rust is suddenly foreign to the C family that I'm honestly not sure you can do that. Even "unsafe" Rust doesn't completely switch off the enforced safety

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  • [–] 3 points 10 months ago*

    If they rely on UB at all, then this won't work. At best you get a compile time error, but more likely your rust program will do weird stuff with memory. And given how much people rely on compilers "acting nice" when it comes to aliasing (something rust does not fuck around with), I wouldn't hold my breathe

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    I'm my experience, LLMs are especially bad at Rust. They really don't seem to grasp the borrow checker.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago*

    I used Rust with Deepseek for a small project for copying and pasting snippets and it went pretty well, but I wouldn't trust it to work with and debug a codebase on its own, especially not an OS

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  • [–] 47 points 10 months ago (3 children)

    Get out your popcorn because this should be fun to watch. They're already vibe coding all of the value and stability out of their OS.

    As someone who only still has a Window install because Wine can't handle the CAD tools I rely on, I look forward to the day when Linux becomes a more attractive platform to release professional software for. I'm not holding my breath for the Year of the Linux Desktop but I can certainly enjoy the ride of MS's self sabotage to get there.

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  • [–] 5 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    Have you tried Winboat? Don't know about CAD but it can handle Photoshop well.

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  • [–] 9 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    WinBoat is amazing, but it doesn’t have GPU passthrough yet. That one feature is the holy grail for Windows virtualization on Linux. I hope the WinBoat team can solve it.

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  • [–] 33 points 10 months ago (10 children)

    This is what you get when AI fanaticism combines with Rust fanaticism.

    1 million lines a month is 2-ish line per second. That "engineer" is just someone to blame when things don't work. They aren't going to be contributing anything.

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  • [–] -4 points 10 months ago (8 children)

    I mean, if this is true and it works it is not too far fetched. You'd mostly be checking that tests still make sense and that they pass.

    Microsoft scientists have worked on a tool that automatically converts some C code to Rust.

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  • [–] 10 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    The expensive autocomplete can't do this.

    AI markering all wants us to believe that spoon technology is this close to space flight. We just need to engrave the spoons better. And gold plate them thicker.

    Dude who wrote that doesn't understand how LLMs work, how Rust works, how C works, and clearly jack shit about programming in general.

    Rewriting from one paradigm to another isn't something you can delegate to a million monkeys shitting into typewriters. The core and time-consuming part of the work itself requires skilled architectural coding.

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  • [–] 4 points 10 months ago

    LLMs are - by the nature of how they work - only able to achieve 90-95% accuracy. That's the theoretical best they can do, according to the people behind OpenAI. And worse, it will be presented as 100% accurate, even going so far as to make up sources wholecloth.

    That's an insane and completely unacceptable error rate for any system even pretending to be mission critical.

    Can you imagine sending people to space with a system that has a 1 in 20 chance of just being completely unfit for service?

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  • [–] 4 points 10 months ago (3 children)

    But when they don't pass, then you have to dissect a bunch of AI pasta, right?

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    No, you go to your manager and be like: your machine to make C code into rust code does not work. If you want to keep the pace of 1M loc per month and keep your boss happy I need double pay and 10 people working on it at all time.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (1 child)

    But when your boss tells you that you have to keep doing it this way, then you don't have much choice in the matter. You either keep asking AI for new code and hope it gets it right, or you have to actually delve into the code and spend your time correcting it.

    The 1 million lines of code is just untenable, assuming they want code that actually works.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago

    Well, if that's the case you do the job in the way you yourself judge best. Maybe that tool is good at some tasks and you apply it to that. Bill Gates will be sad for a couple months and then likely forget about the expectations which had been set and you yourself got a stable job with a safe position for years to come.

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  • [–] 3 points 10 months ago

    You'd mostly be checking that tests still make sense and that they pass.

    Nah, my experience is most of your time is finding out what parameter or function call they made up because its mathematically a good answer.

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  • [–] 32 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    A vibe coded Windows 12. Sounds... interesting,,, mildly...

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    [–] 31 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    Probably with AI slop because they got really stupid really fast in Redmond.

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  • [–] 52 points 10 months ago (5 children)

    This could have been good news, however, Microsoft's insistance on using AI, and general incompetence even without it, makes me very doubtful this will be successful.

    They are going to try and replace C and C++ written by actual experts a few decades ago, with Rust written by idiots. Expect tons of logic bugs, and very little measurable difference in memory corruption.

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  • [–] 32 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    little measurable difference? the last time they rewrote something they replaced the start menu with fucking react

    the difference will be measurable and enormous

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (1 child)

    Isn't React technically safer for memory ? I was only talking about memory corruption, Rust's actual main strength.

    Don't get me wrong, it is absolutely terrible that they shoved JavaScript in the start menu. It's buggy as hell, but I don't think it can ever segfault.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago

    perhaps… i guess the single directional execution model would help to prevent memory leaks, and components would help keep things relatively contained… and also javascript in general avoids whole classes of c/c++ bugs… but it’s also incredibly slow. imo it’s just not something you should write core system components in

    to be clear, it’s not react that’s the problem here: its execution model is an excellent way of structuring UI… but something as core as the start menu just really isn’t something you should fuck around with slow languages with

    and also, that’s not to say that FOSS shouldn’t do it - they’re open, and thus something like react makes it easier for devs to write plugs and extend etc… but that’s not an engineering concern for windows: they don’t get the luxury of using extensibility as an excuse

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  • [–] 22 points 10 months ago (5 children)

    Be off fucking windows by 2030, got it.

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  • [–] 31 points 10 months ago (4 children)

    You can be happily off Windows in less than an hour.

    https://fedoraproject.org/kde/

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  • [–] 9 points 10 months ago (3 children)

    I truly believe immutable Fedora distros are the answer to windows. I spent years and years on Debian based distros. At the beginning of 2025 I finally switched my daily driver from Windows to an arch based distro.

    Fast forward to October where I finally put Bazzite on my S/O's gaming laptop, and shit just works. But the real kicker is that I don't have to worry if upgrading her system will leave it unbootable.

    Look, I love tinkering, compiling from source, and keeping a spare Linux kernel, but windows users don't want that shit. They yern for flat packs and systems that you can't fuck up.

    Anyways, fedora atomic, 100% the new meta.

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  • [–] 3 points 10 months ago

    I really agree. I let my partner try out my steam deck (immutable arch instead of Fedora, but ultimately the same experience. Flatpaks and easy updates). They fell in love with it, so I bought a second one for them. It’s been a year now, running it almost exclusively on desktop mode and using it as a Linux desktop.

    I haven't even shown them the terminal yet.

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  • [–] 3 points 10 months ago

    100 fucking percent. I'm loving atomic distros more and more as I use them, despite having to work around limitations/recommendations against installing rpm packaged software.

    Bazzite was actually the distro I chose when I bailed on windows earlier this year, and while I do have my complaints, it's easily been the best desktop Linux experience I've had in multiple decades. I've tried a dozen or more times to go to Linux but my graphics card has always been the reason I went back. But between going green and using a distro that has both steam and my GPU drivers baked in, it's been a fucking dream.

    Like, I love tinkering, coding, and all that fun tech shit. But I also do this for a living, so I want my home system as set and forget as possible. I don't mind doing troubleshooting on my servers and shit to make hosted services work, but something about having to troubleshoot my main rig just sends me over the edge.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago

    Yep. Atomic doesn’t suit my needs outside of a dedicated gaming machine, but if I help my mom with a new computer, it’s going to have an atomic desktop with KDE. Close enough to windows that she won’t need to learn something new, secure where I won’t have to clean it out every 6 months, and reliable to where she can handle OS updates herself. I just need to be able to run an old version of WordPerfect for her in Wine and she has everything she needs.

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  • [–] 19 points 10 months ago (2 children)
  • [–] 54 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    Surely there's no way for Microsoft to vibe-fuck their OS.

    Surely.

    Surely.

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  • [–] 16 points 10 months ago*

    Well known in the industry how you don't assess programmers by lines of code. You kind of want them to be efficient and clean. Spend their day thinking and design clever solutions... Not pump out lots of unmaintainable low quality stuff. And have a million lines of that by tomorrow. But yeah, guess every aspect of this aligns well. You should be using Linux by now. Or at least do the switch in the near future.

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  • [–] 30 points 10 months ago (7 children)

    reimplement … with help from AI

    Meaning, it will have more bugs and less features after.

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  • [–] 6 points 10 months ago (6 children)

    I tried vibe coding a rust project and it was total ass.

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  • [–] 11 points 10 months ago (5 children)

    AI doesn't reason, so it heavily depends on what's been presented in the training set.

    Python is everywhere and most importantly whatever you can think exists in Python, from critical bioinformatics tools to somebody learning programming from the first time and posting their prime number finder or sorting algorithm online.

    Rust? Not at that point yet, so the AI fails

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  • [–] 5 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    Yeah, for everything I've seen it's just a classical case of overfitment. I only tried it because it was recommended to me by a coworker. It failed at problem solving and choosing comparable dependencies. Completely jarring because like you said, it could likely do it in JS and Python. But clearly not Rust. I often wonder if the code you get from AI is +85% stolen verbatim.

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  • [–] 3 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    I dunno man, I tried coding a simply http listener with an LLM one time in python (a language I'm unfamiliar with). Just something to sit on a port, listen for a request, and run a script.

    I ended up spending more time troubleshooting the maybe two dozen lines of code than I would have spent just looking up a tutorial online.

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  • [–] 12 points 10 months ago

    Perfect plan, I'm sure there will be no problems

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  • [–] 11 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    The linkedin post this is based on sounds like a troll/joke/fake/mental episode.

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  • [–] 4 points 10 months ago*

    TBH he probably knows he is lying, but is making confusing claims in order to push some other agenda.

    Probably firing core people to save money while maintaining plausiblish deniability that this won't do irrepairable damage.

    Or just to get himself approval for amassing subordinates for a little kingdom, by displaying an ambitious "plan".

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  • [–] 8 points 10 months ago*

    Somebody got yelled at Edit: seeing as theres no embed, the same guy put up something about this was a research prject and, hah, of course theyre not porting windows to rust.

    https://circumstances.run/@davidgerard/115774900029763806

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  • [–] 7 points 10 months ago

    Incoming brainrot-video from Bryan Lunduke in 3..2..1

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  • [–] 7 points 10 months ago

    This sounds like a great idea, I might finally be able to use Linux at work in the future.

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  • [–] 13 points 10 months ago

    Replace the spaghetti with slop. Sounds like a great idea.

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  • [–] 14 points 10 months ago (6 children)

    Will this finally be the end of Windows?

    Also fun fact: Windows uses a lot of COM Interfaces for API, which in my opinion often makes developing for Windows a better experience, than developing for Linux. Rust does not have anything OOP related by default, and are often emulated with macros instead, like in C.

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  • [–] 8 points 10 months ago (3 children)

    I work for a company developing software for Windows and deal with COM all the time. How do you communicate across dynamic libraries and languages in Linux?

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  • [–] 4 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    Linux usually just uses C API, most of which reads horribly. Libevdev is quite notorious for using files and the docs not telling you that the reading is blocking. Some additional things use C++ classes though.

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  • [–] 4 points 10 months ago

    (With react native)

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  • [+] 3 points 10 months ago (2 children)
  • [–] 16 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    Just do it now. It feels so good and everyone's doing it.

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  • [–] 4 points 10 months ago

    I can't play stuff that requires kernal level anticheat (I know I know, "stop playing those game" no, fuck off). When I can actually play all the games I use to socialise with my very limited amount of friends, sure, but until then, for my use case, Linux is just not good.

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  • [–] 7 points 10 months ago

    I can't wait for online trolls to blame the language after the AI slop code gets flagged with a billion CVEs

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago*

    This is coming from someone who is pretending to think Microsoft is currently doing well and could lose some quality at the expense to introduce new features users want faster to sell an image of technology innovators or at a baseline a user friendly experience

    What is actually happening is they are trying really hard to sell Microsoft after windows 11 launch pushed a lot of users away or at least gave them an accurate impression of how MS caters to corporations and advertisers and they don't give a shit about users as long as they keep buying computers with windows monopoly pre installed. The 'ai is going to be good enough to replace developers' longshot could come in 10 years or 10,000 years and is a hand wave to not understand the problem or currently available possible solutions.

    Also the interview only covers corpo interests and doesn't include any labor or software union leaders.

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  • 2 comments in c/technology@lemmy.zip view that post
    [–] 10 points 10 months ago

    It appears my post generated far more attention than I intended… with a lot of speculative reading between the lines.. Just to clarify… Windows is *NOT* being rewritten in Rust with AI.

    My team’s project is a research project. We are building tech to make migration from language to language possible. The intent of my post was to find like-minded engineers to join us on the next stage of this multi-year endeavor—not to set a new strategy for Windows 11+ or to imply that Rust is an endpoint.

    https://www.linkedin.com/posts/galenh_principal-software-engineer-coreai-microsoft-activity-7407863239289729024-WTzf

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  • [–] 5 points 10 months ago

    So vibe coding

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