top 51 comments

sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] 19 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (4 children)

These propagandized individuals are emotionally manipulated to hate communists and see them as dangerous by capitalist institutions, but they are in no way, shape, or form exposed to the ideas that communists express in an impartial manner.

I'd argue that it is rare that understanding is properly conveyed through labels. People attach their own understanding to labels - and these propagandized individuals are conditioned to believe they understand communists, but in reality they are just trained to dehumanize and hate communists. They don't understand.

So, how does this dynamic shift?

  • source
  • hideshow 4 child comments
  • [+] 14 points 11 months ago (3 children)
  • [–] 2 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (2 children)

    I argue that the first steps to creating broad coherence with others involves encouraging independent thought/critical thinking, emphasizing our shared humanity and desire for a better world for everyone, and subtly working to reduce polarization (such as conditioned fear/hate/dehumanization of others) in any way possible.

    I understand this is a ML space and I respect your ideology, but I have to point out that it isn't the only socialist ideology - and it's a fairly polarizing one at that. What could be done to help bridge the gap among socialists, even just here on the fediverse?

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • [+] 7 points 11 months ago (2 children)
  • [–] 2 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 child)

    Critical thinking is necessary, but that’s not really something we socialists have any power over in the broad populace.

    I believe that we all have the power to educate others to think for themselves and to think critically. It may not be as substantive and impactful as we'd like from a single interaction, but it's nothing to write off. I feel that there is a lot of untapped potential for all of us to realize, especially with the use of modern technology.

    The internet is an truly an amazing thing for humanity. I just have to point out the work r/LateStageCapitalism has done to educate and inform others over the years. Many people have likely been radicalized due to their work (i.e. encouraged to think for themselves and see beyond mainstream narratives) and I'm pretty sure it's a ML space, as well.

    It's easy to see that traditional institutions are losing trust broadly and that mainstream media is falling off. The narrative seems very difficult for those currently in power to both spread and control the perception of.

    I try to do my best to explain that I want a better world, but that also requires being honest and forthright with me being a communist, and explaining exactly what that means and why.

    I value your example and honesty. I have witnessed many interactions between you and other people on the fediverse and I applaud your efforts and diplomacy.

    As for Marxism-Leninism, I’d argue its controversy mostly stems from it being the branch with the most actual existence in the real world.

    Most people here on the fediverse loosely agree on what needs to change, but most of the disagreement I feel comes from the methodology of bringing about that change. I'd say there is a time and place to discuss methodology or introduce people into specific ideology, but getting people to realize a better world is possible is something we can all work broadly work towards and I feel there is a lot of value in that sort of action.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • load more comments (-1 replies)
  • load more comments (-1 replies)
  • [–] 4 points 11 months ago

    So, how does this dynamic shift?

    One key point is to break conformism. People were and are brainwashed to hate "communism" on top of being brainwashed to conform to society. To hate the enemy is a recurring theme in the system, in our case it takes the form of communists but it can be anything else.

  • source
  • parent
  • load more comments (-1 replies)
    [+] 33 points 11 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (10 children)
  • [–] 21 points 11 months ago (2 children)

    Erm akshutally how is it possible to care for human life without maximizing shareholder profit, in this 10,000,000 page peer reviewed study (sponsored by megacorp™) I will prove that you are wrong and I am good

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • [–] 9 points 11 months ago* (1 child)

    It wasn't by megacorp, it was by a think tank sponsored by a consultancy hired by megacorp to do exactly that. Stop blaming megacorp for everything. You people are so fucking conspiratorial.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • [–] 18 points 11 months ago (2 children)

    erhm i’ll let you know that the soviet onion killed six hundred million bajillion stalinnion people so ☝️🤓

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • [+] -9 points 11 months ago (2 children)

    As much as we might disagree about things and eventually have to kill each other when you inevitably betray the revolution and try to kill me for not being reactionary enough, I'd far prefer your world to theirs.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • load more comments (-2 replies)
  • [–] 6 points 11 months ago (4 children)

    Honestly I don't see what's wrong with a mixed market economy

  • source
  • hideshow 4 child comments
  • [+] 20 points 11 months ago (4 children)
  • [–] 7 points 11 months ago* (2 children)

    The Nordic countries, for example, have private ownership as principle. As a consequence, their safety nets are eroding, and they depend on imperialism to continue.

    I would say their mistake was putting so many chips on the future of fossil fuels. Sweden and Norway both derive enormous amounts of their state revenue from their state-run O&G companies. Venezuela tried a similar move under Chavez back in 2002. As the cost of producing gasoline has risen and the barrel rate has stagnated, their ability to self-finance a socialist state decayed.

    Though it relies heavily on market mechanics, the difference is stark when it comes to long-term planning and development, and the gradual collectivization of production and distribution in an increasingly planned fashion has produced incredible results.

    I would say the most pivotal policy of the Chinese state revolves around the condition that any business must be majority owned by local people. That includes patents. That includes physical capital. That includes intellectual property and commercial redistribution rights. The Chinese people own the Chinese economy. And this insourcing of legal ownership is what has resulted in the Chinese economic miracle.

    By contrast, states like India and Indonesia continue to outsource much of the legal ownership of their work products to western banks and oligarchs. Similarly, the post-Soviet Eastern Bloc dissolved all its state institutions of domestic ownership and outsourced the rent-seeking portions of their economy abroad. The result has been a steady flow of wealth out of the country and a spreading poverty at home.

    While westerners often debate the finer points of socialism in theory, the socialist movement in practice has always been first and foremost anti-colonial. Commanding your own wealth, whether you're a North Korean adherent of Juche trying to build a fully self-reliant industrial interior or a Cuban trying to do Caribbean mutualism with your island as a center of medical R&D, is at the beating heart of Actual Existing Socialism.

    The Nords did do that in the 1960s/70s with energy nationalization. But they failed to expand public ownership to non-petro sectors.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • [+] 10 points 11 months ago (2 children)
  • [–] 5 points 11 months ago (1 child)

    Venezuela's more brown and lacks the benefit of the Cold War to play both sides against the middle. I don't think its a matter of principles. Maduro has been more than happy to broker deals to lift sanctions and reopen international exports with capitalist states, he just hasn't had the same opportunity to make deals that the Nordic States have had with BP, Shell, and Exxon.

    Hell, the Chavezmos didn't even try to nationalize their economy. They built everything socialist out in parallel with the spare oil cash. At least the Nords had the good sense to nationalize health care and education.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • load more comments (-1 replies)
  • load more comments (-1 replies)
  • [–] 0 points 11 months ago

    This is an incredibly well written response and I apologize in advance if my response comes across as overly cynical or perhaps dismissive.

    My main concern with the complete abolition of private property is that unfortunately I don't have enough trust in most governments to fairly distribute resources. Therefore I think a mixed market economy with a strong social welfare system is the most feasible method. Through this, we can gradually work towards socialist principles without completely alienating a large section of the populace. I don't think a direct transition would be sustainable in the long term unfortunately.

  • source
  • parent
  • load more comments (-1 replies)
    [+] -6 points 11 months ago (11 children)

    The problem is not the communist utopia, is how the means to build it will always end up in a totlitarian police state. Because we can't have nice things.

  • source
  • hideshow 11 child comments
  • [+] 22 points 11 months ago (7 children)
  • [–] -5 points 11 months ago (3 children)

    Socialism, probably yeah. But here it's communism thats displayed

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 3 child comments
  • [+] 15 points 11 months ago (3 children)
  • [+] -7 points 11 months ago (2 children)
  • [–] 12 points 11 months ago

    You literally said:

    Socialism, probably yeah. But here it's communism thats displayed

    That person explained why that's a flawed way of understanding previous socialist experiments and that the distinction you're making doesn't make much sense, and instead of listening and admitting you don't know much about the topic you decided to accuse that person of a logical fallacy that doesn't even apply.

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 6 points 11 months ago*

    (Looks like the comment I replied to got deleted, so mind the context was in response to "Not true communism TM")

    This is an ignorant way to respond, although I can appreciate these terms have several meanings that can be difficult to follow.

    Communist parties of the 20th century knew and openly stated that what they had built was a socialist system and communism was the endgame. The goal of 20th century socialists was to gradually progress to that point that scarcity is abolished and distribution follows the principle of need. At which point they might declare communism achieved, so long as other things have happened like completing the (gradual) dissolution of the state.

    It is not an attempt to distance from a bad word - we/Marxists/Communists don't see it as a bad word.

    And the 20th century movements & their states were "real communism" in that they were a genuine expression of the movement for communism, and furnish us with both positive and negative examples.

  • source
  • parent
  • load more comments (-1 replies)
  • [–] -2 points 11 months ago (2 children)

    So I will admit that I am ignorant of a method of attaining Communism that isn't at the end of a rifle, and thus authoritarian by nature (and fully accept that, to a degree, Capitalism is also at the end of a gun, but typically less overt, or often directed without instead of within). The only nations I've seen flying the red flag have appeared highly authoritarian (and I'm not going to get drawn into a "USSR and PRC aren't/weren't authoritarian, and DPRK is actually a utopia!" discussion, so if that's the direction this is going, let me know and I'll politely see my way out).

    I've seen in the lower comments that Socialism would be used as a gateway to Communism, but I am unclear about the transition from "everybody's basic needs are met via taxation and distribution" to "personal property is abolished" (as I understand Communism to mean, please correct me if I'm wrong). Plenty of European countries have had (for the west), strong seemingly socialist systems, but they don't seem to be deliberately angling toward Communism, for example.

    So I'm curious what this peaceful Capitalist to Communist timeline would look like.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • [+] 12 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 child)
  • [–] 5 points 11 months ago

    I appreciate the write-up, thank you! I feel like a lot of this is semantic differences. I've always thought of socialism as any public funds used specifically to help citizens (e.g. social security, medicare, unemployment, UBI, etc) and Communism to be the public owning and running the means of production, and distributing goods thereof, and the stateless, classless, moneyless society to be the ideal utopia it aspired to (similar to Star Trek). From your comment, I see that what I call Communism, you call Socialism (which explains a lot of confusion from discussions in the past with self-described Communists I've known), and the nameless Star Trek post-scarcity system you would call Communism.

    Do you think it is possible to slow-roll the transition peacefully, though? If, for example, instead of the government bailing out industries, they bought out industries on the cheap, slowly growing and monopolizing like Google or Amazon have? Or do you think the rich would simply block that from happening?

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 11 points 11 months ago*

    The problem here is your understanding of socialism. European countries such as Denmark, Sweden, and Norway (etc.) have not had socialism. They have had social democracy, capitalism with social safety nets.

  • source
  • parent
  • load more comments (-1 replies)
  • [–] 4 points 11 months ago*

    No. The people making these criticisms like the totalitarian police state part. It's the communism that pisses them off.

    Like, idk what % of local and national resources went to cops/domestic intelligence operations in the USSR on its worst day, certainly too fucking much, but I bet it wasn't half what american municipalities and fedgov spend right now.

  • source
  • parent
  • [+] -8 points 11 months ago (2 children)
  • load more comments (-1 replies)
    [+] -5 points 11 months ago (5 children)
  • [+] 12 points 11 months ago (1 child)
  • [+] -7 points 11 months ago (1 child)
  • [+] 7 points 11 months ago (1 child)
  • load more comments (-1 replies)
  • load more comments (-1 replies)
  • load more comments (-1 replies)
  • [–] -2 points 11 months ago

    I agree with you, but also the communist bad vs capitalist bad meme war and the corresponding comments are the only reason I'm still on the fediverse.

    With no conservative presence to speak of, you get to see why no unity is possible between groups of any significant size. Leftists will continue to shatter into smaller groups and those groups will vie for dominance inside of the movement. Each group will develop purity tests to identify members.

    Even amongst groups of capitalists, even amongst groups of communists, even amongst groups of lgbtq+ people and the sub groups to which they apply. Especially when those groups interact.

    The human animal is amazing! The only thing most people agree on is violence is required to move society in any significant direction. That tells you everything you need to know about humans.

  • source
  • parent
  • load more comments (2 replies)
    load more comments
    view more: next ›