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[–] 43 points 1 year ago (17 children)

How did they decompose if they were frozen? Or did this happen as they were thawed and basically just liquified as they warmed up?

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  • [–] 62 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (12 children)

    The second. Turns out cryo places take a ridiculous amount of energy to keep the corpses at the ‘proper’ temperature, and those running such places often cut corners, and so leave out things like backup generators. The suspension fluids also need refilling periodically, which often doesn’t happen.

    Edit: if you want to read the article this post is quoting, you can find it here.

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  • [–] 13 points 1 year ago* (7 children)

    Thanks for the link, that was interesting to read. They link to a "medical report" from one of the cryprofreeze companies, about three people who were transferred from being frozen completely to just having their heads preserved (apparently this is a thing).

    It contains such gems as describing said process of decapitating a corpse like this:

    The patient was removed to an isolation tent with specially constructed supports, where a rapid conversion to neuropreservation was done using a high speed electric chain saw.

    They go into some detaile about how the bodies reacted to being frozen for years and then warmed up again, which is interesting to read (for me at least) and shows that the technology needed to revive these souls is a long long time away (if at all)"

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  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago (6 children)

    The only real hurdle in the revival process is the fact that we don't know how to freeze folks while preventing microcellular crystals from forming. Reviving folks after that would simply be a matter of reversing the process.

    And finding a way to reverse brain death.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    Isn't the real hurdle that the human body is composed of different materials that have different thermal expansion coefficients, meaning any kind of freezing or thawing will lead to cracks at all scales, even down to the molecular one?

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    Yeah, humans are large and it's hard to freeze the entire thing at the same time even with very cold storage. The outside of you freezes before the inside and that's problematic.

    Smaller mammals like rodents have been frozen and thawed successfully while still living but they are way smaller.

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  • [–] 16 points 1 year ago* (3 children)

    Didn't one of these places recently lose power or go out of business?

    Anyway, will all their frozen cell walls popped they probably turn to goo that much faster.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    i think that business model is bs, but that should be treated and manslaughter.

    given that the whole premise of the business is that they can be revived is kept in appropriate conditions. having the corpses decompose due to negligence is manslaughter. or if not, it means their business is fraudulent.

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  • [–] 96 points 1 year ago (66 children)

    Eh, one of the slower ways to kill a billionaire, but at least it is still killing them.

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  • [–] 73 points 1 year ago (65 children)

    Its pretty fast really. They're dead the second their body functions stop. Nobody has ever survived being frozen solid. Not really. Coming back from that is a death sentence.

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  • [–] 21 points 1 year ago (64 children)

    The idea is that you put the frozen head in a brain scanner and the synapses are still intact so you can emulate them in a computer or specialised android hardware.

    This way the rich can become imortal gods as the poor can be made to work 24/7 at 10000x efficiency

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  • [–] 29 points 1 year ago (56 children)

    Yeah... and it's a dumb idea. Consciousness is not software.

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  • [–] 13 points 1 year ago* (46 children)

    What I consciousness though?

    It's clearly not hardware, if either an emulated brain can be conscious or just pretends to do so is impossible to prove or disprove.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 child)

    There's a whole field of philosophy dealing with that question, there's no consensus yet, though interesting ideas have surfaced

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    I don't think that's something that will be solved as it's not something really tangible.

    The most simple theory and the one I lean towards is that every time you go to deep sleep you effectively die, and when you wake up (or enter REM sleep) you are effectively a whole new consciousness who just happens to have the memories of the many consciousness who previously inhabited your body. This theory is nice because it solves the teleporter paradox, but doesn't answer the question if an emulated brain actually thinks or just pretends to think. The so called philosophical zombie.

    But also, it's funny to think that if I truly believed this theory, then I would spend all my money right now and let "whoever inherits my memories" to deal with the consequences.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago (43 children)

    What I consciousness though?

    It's organic.

    if either an emulated brain can be conscious or just pretends to do so is impossible to prove or disprove.

    The point is moot - the consciousness of the frozen billionaire is non-existent in either case.

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  • [–] 9 points 1 year ago (41 children)

    It’s organic

    Why? Why could there not be a non-organic consciousness?

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  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago

    Going to take it a step further and say artificial life is just organic life with extra steps.

    The concept of robots that continued to evolve post creators is not new to scifi.

    In some ways our own body is simply an emergent complex machine of regenerative biodegradable micro hardware.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    There maybe could, but it would be a different one from the person. A second consciousness that was copied.

    To my knowledge we are nowhere close to being able to actually transfer a consciousness

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (35 children)

    The only consciousness we have ever encountered is organic in nature - speculation on non-organic forms of consciousness is pretty much esoteric.

    Ie, it depends on your religious beliefs.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago (28 children)

    Before airplanes, the only form of flight was organic. This was also a firmly held religious belief.

    Our ignorance doesn't mean something isn't possible. It just means we don't know if it is possible.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (27 children)

    Before airplanes, the only form of flight was organic.

    That doesn't help your argument at all - flight was being demonstrated long, long before humans even existed to observe it. Can you say the same for non-organic consciousness?

    I don't know about you, but I haven't seen too many scientists rushing to find ways of measuring the consciousness of rocks.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (26 children)

    You are making my point. For millenia, we had examples of organic flight, yet many believed we couldn't mimic that, and some thought it would be an affront to God to try, as it implied his perfect creation was lacking. And yet, now people fly every day.

    No, there are no examples of inorganic consciousness at this time, but the same was true for flight 200 years ago. And we have a number of examples of organic consciousness. Scientists know better than to look for conscious rocks, just like the Wright brothers knew better than to look for flying rocks.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (25 children)

    For millenia, we had examples of organic flight,

    So where is your millenia's worth of proof that inorganic consciousness is a thing? Do you have any proof that any mountain range on earth has managed consciousness in the last few hundreds of billions of years?

    but the same was true for flight 200 years ago.

    No, that's not true. The Chinese have been making sky lanterns since the 3rd century BC - and doing so in a way that no organism on earth has managed (as far as I'm aware). So please stop with the useless "everybody once believed the earth was flat" nonsense.

    No, there are no examples of inorganic consciousness

    Correct. Your (so-called) "smartphone" is about as "conscious" as my rusty garden shears.

    Scientists know better than to look for conscious rocks,

    No, but to prove your point you will have to. I also have no idea why you're so willing to die on this hill, because, even if you do manage to find a conscious rock that consciousness will still not function like software.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (10 children)

    You will never prove a rock is conscious, just like you will never prove another human is conscious. You can only know your own consciousness. You can logically imply other humans (and other animals) are also conscious, but you cannot know it.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (9 children)

    And? None of this information is useful to me (or anyone else, either).

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (8 children)

    True. But it makes any discussion like the one you were arguing rather pointless.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (7 children)

    I have no idea why everyone here absolutely insists on having this thoroughly pointless argument with me at all. I merely stated that which should be obvious - consciousness is not software - and lots of people were, apparently, offended by that because a bunch of tech bros pretended it does.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (6 children)

    But consciousness could easily be a manifestation of 'software'. You can't know. You can't know what it is; you can't even prove it exists outside of your own experience. So when you make definitive statements like that, you will often get people pointing out that you are wrong. It's not a matter of being offended any more than being offended at any untruth being spread as if fact.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (5 children)

    But consciousness could easily be a manifestation of ‘software’.

    Why? Because we invented software? Viewing human consciousness as software says a lot more about the early 21st century viewer than it does human consciousness - pretty much in the same way that viewing human physiology as purely mechanical says a lot more about the early 20th century viewer than it does human physiology.

    Let's be clear... there is no indication - never mind evidence - that human consciousness works like software. In spite of that, it seems to be a holy cow belief for plenty of people here. And I'd argue that the reason why that is is far, far more relevant than the "consciousness-vs.-software" debate itself.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (4 children)

    Well I think in this context software can mean a set of flexible procedureal instructions being followed by a more rigid hardware framework. Parts of the human brain are like software (re-wireable links and learned timings), and parts are hardware (as grown from birth, mostly independent of stimulus). A computer is also hardware (cpu) and software. An AI neural network is just a big matrix of interrelations between nodes which software can run as a network, much like the human brain is a big set of neurons that runs as a network. Obviously the human brain is more complicated than the current structural basis for AI now as the human brain has other feedback mechanisms. But people are working on modeling these kinds of things and applying them to AI. And AI nets could theoretically get as big or much bigger, representing neural nets larger than our brains. So there's no particular reason AI could not match or surpass human thought power. Both the brain and computer systems are a combination of hardware and software in this context. But computer scientists see the software as a layer on top of the hardware - and inferred or secondarily intelligence comes more as a layer on the software. It doesn't really matter if it's software or hardware anyway as it's just algorithms and the implementation doesn't really matter. Similarly in the brain, there are biological hardware processes and the equivalent of software (dynamically configurable connections). But it can still be seen as an implementation of an algorithm. If consciousness can come out of that, there's no reason that it can't come out of software running on a computer. There is no 'consciousness' mechanism as far as we know - it is a result of having a sufficient complexity of the right kind of algorithmic processing. Or at least, that is a perfect reasonable explanation. It's seemingly unprovable whether it exists in anything other that one's own personal experience; so we simply can't know if another system is actually conscious. But if it acts conscious, it seems like that's about as good a test as we will ever manage. There's no point in gatekeeping the assumption of consciousness of an AI any more than denying the consciousness of another person just because you can't prove it. Unless we identify some sort of biological basis for consciousness that for some reason cannot be copied in a computer based system, there's no good reason to think AIs can't be conscious. One can bring spirituality or religion into it, but that's similarly unprovable and there's no particular reason those things couldn't apply to AI systems if they apply to human brains.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (3 children)

    Obviously the human brain is more complicated than the current structural basis for AI

    You're not comparing apples to oranges here... you are comparing apples to electric toasters.

    So there’s no particular reason AI could not match or surpass human thought power.

    You mean... apart from the fact that there's not even the most circumstantial whiff of evidence that these runaway algorithms will ever actually think?

    These runaway algorithms already vastly surpasses humans in the ability to crunch numbers and multi-task (the latter is actually quite impossible for humans to do, in spite of the whining of the managerial classes) - no surprise, since that is what information technology was invented to do - and yet, that hasn't resulted in one of them doing anything that can be considered "having a thought."

    At this point, I think you might want to ask why it is that you assume that consciousness is (somehow) the end-goal of the development of these glorified paper-clip machine simulators (since that's seemingly the most accurate way of describing them) - after all, the last thing the capitalist class needs is a paper-clip machine that thinks.

    Consciousness is not that big a deal, you know - there's eight billion examples of it walking around on the earth currently, and the spoilt and privileged people creating these runaway algorithms absolutely does not care a fig for any of them.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (2 children)

    Of course they think. What else would you call the cyclic process of a reasoning model? Just because we know the mechanisms of the fundamental building blocks of these algorithms doesn't mean they aren't thinking. And it certainly doesn't mean that they couldn't be conscious - especially when we don't actually know exactly what consciousness is. The brain mechanics are fairly well understood too - the synapses inter communication and networking is vaguely similar to the matrix calculations of current AI tools. The brain is just a machine - a highly complicated one with chemical elements, but a machine nonetheless.
    I don't assume consciousness is the end goal of ai. Although I suspect some scientists are working towards that in a more pragmatic non-metaphysics way. We don't know what consciousness actually is, or what makes it. We can't really do proper science on the subject because it can't actuallyw be observed. So we don't know if it will arise accidentally as part of building the complexity of neural nets sufficiently. Of course consciousness is a big deal; but it's very difficult to understand. I think you should look into metaphysics more to try understand the issues.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

    Of course they think.

    Your proof?

    especially when we don’t actually know exactly what consciousness is.

    So you don't know what something is when your brain does it, but you are confident enough to know what that something is when something that is totally unlike your brain in every possible way does it?

    The brain is just a machine

    Says who? Evolutionary processes does not create machines - human engineering does.

    I don’t assume consciousness is the end goal of ai.

    Could have fooled me - all I'm hearing from the pro-"consciousness-must-be-software" crowd is assumptions and little else.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    They think. It's a matter of semantics of course, but the processing of ideas is thinking and AI does that.
    Why do you keep strawmanning? I never said I'm confident AIs will have consciousness. I'm saying we can't know, but there's no reason to think they won't. How are you so confident they never will have consciousness since we don't actually know what consciousness is?
    What else is a brain but a biological machine? Do you think it has magic or something else that differentiates it from any other machine? Getting stuck on semantics is pointless - the source of a machine is irrelevant to this discussion.
    This entire discussion is based on assumptions, as is your opinion that a brain is somehow a special construct that can't ever be emulated.
    The ultimate fact that we don't know what consciousness actually is, nor can we prove an entity has it or doesn't (except for our own mind) means that it's kind of a stupid thing to argue about. You can believe whatever you want. I don't really care if you're wrong.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (13 children)

    You keep putting your ignorance on display. The elements of flight are self-propelled and directed. Hot air balloons and sky lanterns are not self-directed - they are just floating, which, by the way, jellyfish and other organisms also did for millenia. Gliders and paper airplanes are not self-propelled - they are kept aloft via energy gained from the air and their initial launch.

    Note that nowhere have I said that an inorganic or, more broadly, a synthetic consciousness is possible. I have said we don't know enough to say it isn't. Nor have I said how this thing we haven't ruled out will be made. You have been making the bold assertions, not me. So what do you have besides your supreme confidence and bold assertions to back up your claims?

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (12 children)

    The elements of flight are self-propelled and directed.

    Sky lanterns are self-propelled - as to your other dictate...

    Gliders

    ...I'm going to tell a glider pilot what they do isn't flying because some pretend-genius edgelordon the internet said so. I hope they get a good chuckle out of it.

    The fact that this is what you choose to quibble about shows you're just trying to distract from how silly your arguments are.

    jellyfish and other organisms also did for millenia

    I haven't seen any jellyfish in the sky yet. Have you?

    You have been making the bold assertions, not me.

    It's not a bold thing to assert that something that only exists in the imaginations of tech bros and sci-fi writers is based on a very flawed assumption that has more elements of religiosity to it than anything we can actually observe ourselves.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (11 children)

    First, let me correct myself. All of my previous statements refer to powered flight.

    And, once again, how is what you said about synthetic consciousness different than powered flight, except 200 years have passed? The only religiosity those tech pros and sci-fi writers you refer to express is that everything we have seen in the physical world follows the laws of nature, and that we can create things that follow those physical laws to achieve behavior we see in nature, such as powered flight and (the illusion of) consciousness.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (10 children)

    And, once again, how is what you said about synthetic consciousness different than powered flight,

    You mean... apart from the fact that we have had proof of it's possibility for millions of years?

    The only religiosity those tech pros and sci-fi writers you refer to

    No, I'm afraid that the idea that consciousness works like software is deeply rooted in the religious idea that the body and soul is separate from each other - in spite of the fact that reality tells us a much, much different story. If you think consciousness works like software, you might just as well believe disembodied spirits are floating around graveyards - both beliefs fundamentally require the same view of consciousness.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (9 children)

    If your speculation is that consciousness is rooted in the hardware, then synthetic consciousness is an engineering problem, and humanity is very good at solving engineering problems. The fact is, the only thing scientists have found that is really different between the neurons in simple life forms such as jellyfish and us is the level of complexity, hence the speculation of consciousness being emergent behavior. Again, I don't know, and I haven't heard of scientists definitively knowing the source of consciousness, either, which is why I continue to maintain that we don't know if we can create synthetic consciousness because it's really hard to make something if you don't know how it works. As far as our current crop of tech bros, they seem to be relying on the idea of emergent behavior, hence the need for ever-more-complex artificial intelligence. I think they're behaving like cargo cults, building something that superficially resembles the thing they want and hoping it just starts to mystically work. Them being wrong, just like cargo cults and airplanes, doesn't mean it isn't possible to create a synthetic consciousness.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (8 children)

    If your speculation is that consciousness is rooted in the hardware,

    That's not my speculation at all. We are not hardware. Organisms do not function like machines.

    I haven’t heard of scientists definitively knowing the source of consciousness,

    We know the source of consciousness - it's organic. It's rooted in our physical existence as organisms. What scientists want to understand is the "how" part... and we'll never understand it if we think of it as an engineering/design problem because evolutionary processes reqires neither engineering nor design. In fact, I'd argue that this level of complexity is impossible to achieve through engineering and/or design processes.

    which is why I continue to maintain that we don’t know

    You may continue not knowing if you wish... but it's a very mundane non-mystery as far as I'm concerned.

    I think they’re behaving like cargo cults, building something that superficially resembles the thing they want

    You're assuming that consciousness is what they want... I'd say that's an assumption that is not based on the true interests the parasite class has. Their interests is in control - not creating consciousness.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (7 children)

    Engineering is applied physics, and physics is how the universe works (limited by our understanding of it, of course). Organisms follow physics just as much as any engineered device or structure.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (6 children)

    So who applied the physics to create a living, pulsating jellyfish?

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (5 children)

    Who applies the gravity to that jellyfish? Same answer. Newton didn't invent gravity, and it still exists even if you don't understand. Gravity affects that jellyfish as much as it affects me. Newton gave me the formulas to describe it.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (4 children)
  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago* (3 children)

    I don't know if this a comprehension issue or trolling, but either one is a problem for you to fix, not me. Good luck out there.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (2 children)

    You hitting rock-bottom with your argument does not constitute a comprehension issue on my part.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

    My disengagement on this discussion isn't due to my lack of ideas or capability to explain them, but due to my lack of belief in your ability or desire to grasp them. This was implied in my previous comment, but even that level of subtlety appears to be beyond you.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    You're disengagement is because you aren't willing to make an "intelligent design" argument, despite the fact that your own reasoning have left that the only option open to you. Once you claim that engineering and evolution is (somehow) the same process there is nowhere else left to go.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (5 children)

    Speculation on organic consciousness is pretty much esoteric, too, given that science can’t even reach a consensus on a definition of “consciousness” yet.

    For that matter, the scientific boundary between “organic” and “inorganic” is really fuzzy.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (4 children)

    Speculation on organic consciousness is pretty much esoteric, too,

    I don't disagree. I just don't see any reason for even an esoteric basis to speculate that consciousness is in any way analogous to computer software simply because "we invented this thing so we must apply it's logic to ourselves." It smacks of the "machine" view of how the human body works that became prevalent in medicine after industrialisation - and even today it is still a way of understanding human physiology that causes far more problems than it solves.

    Ie, there's no speculative basis for it.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (3 children)

    That’s a different point to the one I was replying to. I was replying to your dismissal of the conversation as esoteric, based on it discussing specifically non-organic consciousness.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (2 children)

    That's because everybody arguing with me is conflating me saying that consciousness is not software with an attack on their favourite sci-fi genre (cyberpunk). And they're completely missing the whole point of cyberpunk by doing so, if you ask me.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    You don't know that. Literally, you don't. Nobody does. This might be your opinion and that's fine, but stating it as fact is disingenuous

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago

    That depends on their definition of software. If software is partly defined as something we can create, and consciousness is something we can't even fully understand, let alone create, then they are correct.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago

    You don’t know that.

    I also don't know whether ghosts exist. Will you go to bat for them, too?

    but stating it as fact is disingenuous

    Pretending that consciousness is software because movies and videogames portrays it working like software is far more disingenuous, I'd say.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    You will never be able to make a perfect copy of the brain and anything less means you wouldn't be "you" anymore. Any of these schemes about copying the brain are moot because of that, I think.

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  • [–] 9 points 1 year ago* (1 child)

    No, ideally the brain itself (at least) can actually be revived and made to be medically stable. Which assumes the preservation process does not cause too much damage.

    (and also it's vitrification not freezing, though reversing it is still not something that has been done obviously)

    I mean sure, some people are fine with a brain scan (and cryo companies might just say that to temper expectations)... but that sounds like idiot talk to me. I say this as someone who has thought about stuff like this for escapism reasons, not that I have any chance of covering even a reservation fee.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Could you imagine a Star Trek future where some psycho is trying to revive these racist dead fascist!?

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago

    There's an episode of TNG where they revive 3 people who were on a cryogenic space capsule.

    One of them was an entitled wall street trader who was completely out of touch with reality and actually thought he was rich because he thought his stock were still there, and that he would try to order Cap. Picard around thinking the Enterprise was some sort of jet company.

    He was constantly dismissed as a rambling old man. Funny episode.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    At this point, I'm not sure they still need the poor. Automation will handle all the work.

    Unless they want to keep a couple around as novelties to show off.

    Or for sex. Probably they'll keep some of them around for sex. Provided they still have that need.

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  • [–] 26 points 1 year ago (9 children)

    wasn't there some girl that froze herself at 25 years old?

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  • [–] 13 points 1 year ago (6 children)

    There are two frozen accidents I recall in which both women survived. One the (twenty-sonething-year-old?) lady was walking home but was getting too cold and couldn't make it so stopped at a friend's house but couldn't make it to the door, or she was knocking & ringing doorbell and nobody answered, something like that. She froze to death in the front yard, all living processes ceased, but her body froze in such a way that when she was found the next day & taken to the hospital, thawed, her bodily processes began to resume and she made a full recovery with no lasting effects from the trauma.

    Similar outcome experienced by some other lady who fell through the ice in a frozen lake.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago*

    There is a large difference between "freezing to death" in common language and being cryogenically stored (frozen solid). The lowest core body temperature on record of someone surviving an event like that with no deficits is slightly over 50F/11C.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago* (2 children)

    no no there was some girl that froze herself in one of these cryo chamber bullshit at a very young age. she was kinda famous until the day she froze herself. People were asking her "why she was doing this" all the time.

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  • [–] 10 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    Since we can now almost clone from skin cells. Almost. Maybe they can peddle that to people who were unmarried? Like give us a sample when you're 21, we'll freeze your pinki, then just work until you're dead! We'll find you a match and make you some kids later when we can.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    How about folks just come to terms with death instead? Yeah, you're not special, you're gonna die too. Deal with it and move on.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (2 children)
  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

    Yes but can I have their money? I can't promise I'll try to revive them. But I'll take the money and dispose of... Actually I don't need any body parts, just the money.

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