Some of you might remember when a 3mb flash animation could pack in some 5 minutes of animation, with the more advanced ones even having chapter/scene selectors, which could also include clickable easter eggs and other kinds of interactions during the scenes.

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[–] 43 points 1 year ago

There is, SVG with <animate>. It's just not that common.

There's a lot more tooling for creating rasterized videos than SVG. Flash had a whole development environment around it. SVG is comparatively rubbing sticks together to make fire.

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  • [–] 26 points 1 year ago (6 children)

    As a desktop Linux use, Flash was a pain in my existence.

    That shitty plugin that never worked right in Linux because fuck Linux users, amiright?

    Then whole sites were written in Flash, hurting web interoperability and degrading standards. Of course many public services, banks, followed the trend because shiny.

    Fuck those dark ages. The day that shit died was a good day indeed.

    I harbor hate for not many things, but Flash is one of them.

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  • [–] 12 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Microsoft Silverlight: "Hold my beer"

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  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    That name brings up repressed memories. Curse you for making me remember that abominable software

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago

    I actually had some hope for that because we needed something to break the Flash monopoly, and I trusted Microsoft slightly more than I trust Adobe.

    However, it never went anywhere because everyone expected Microsoft was just going to kill it, and of course Microsoft killed it, and that was that.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

    I had some (but not much) issue back when I used Chrome (although IIRC just as much was a mime-type issue not letting them play in the browser) and still use the standalone player without issue.

    I don't think anyone is defending Flash used for websites, aside from some personal blog or portfolio maybe.

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  • [–] 23 points 1 year ago (7 children)

    Watching Homestar Runner on YouTube doesn't hit the same

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  • [–] [S] 6 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    I vaguely remember one of the animations had Homestar pouring soda in the ending screen. After a while (30s?) he'd comment on how it had a lot more soda than it looked. The closest equivalent is a post-credit gags, but it's not the same thing

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    This reminds me that I need to bug my wife to touch up my Trogdor tattoo (she was a professional artist before the economy went tits up)

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

    They do have Ruffle on their site (a bit slower to load IME, but functional) even for new animations (click on the HR icon, not the Youtube icon).

    There are the orginal .SWFs for that, disjointed in their own way. I wish they (or someone) would've merged things so the old menus actually worked, if not further like each file being a season.

    EDIT: they did make the games linked together on the website. And now I do see one of the main pages that links too, though the loading screens make it a bit cumbersome (it seems to be tweaked for Ruffle, or at least only the main page seems to work when the .SWF url is loaded in the standalone player ...unless it just can't do linked swfs).

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  • [–] 21 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    I actually use Flash nearly every day at work. Legacy support is no joke. We have a multi-million dollar system that is all controlled by a computer that is dual-booting Win11 and WinXP. Because the control program is coded in Flash. It’s coded in Flash because there are a lot of moving parts, and the program displays their current positions. And dynamically moving objects is like the one thing that Flash does really really well. Instead of trying to re-program it in a new language, the manufacturer just fucking ships WinXP. Win11 is on another partition, and is only booted when you need to connect to the internet to run firmware updates on the various motors.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago

    Even in 2004 using adobe flash to control some industrial system was an ugly hacks

    When the developer cares way more design than function

    I saw some ultra fancy quotation tool that was simply a PDF with JavaScript, and it would just open adobe reader in full screen. Yes, you made it so fancy because you could use complex vectors in the background and multiple pages, and by doing this the fancy UI part was done way faster, but good luck maintaining that mess over the years

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  • [–] 17 points 1 year ago (27 children)

    The problem isn't animation - as you said there is raster video and also animated SVGs.

    The problem is that there is no way to package interactive content like there was. Flash wasn't just animation, it was also games. And even flash animations often had interactive bits, like homestar runner Easter eggs.

    You can technically do it with JavaScript and HTML, but it's difficult now and unfeasible back when flash died. Not only did the tools not exist, but html didn't even have things like canvas yet for the tools to use.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago (26 children)

    That's not really true. You can do animation in HTML5 just like you could in flash. In fact, there are even quite a few ways you can acomplish the same.

    • HTML5 + JS
    • CSS + JS
    • There are multiple flash player projects running in WASM or JS
    • Animated SVG + JS

    All of that allows for animation, games and interactivity, no problem.

    There are dozens of tools that allow you to build flash-like animation and package it easily. Tons of game engines allow to export to HTML5, just at the press of a button. And there are still websites hosting browser games that fill that spot. There's even HTML5 browser games that run in VR.

    But there are two big caveats:

    • With much more performance, storage and internet bandwidth, there's no reason to go for flash-style skeletal animations. That's not because it's not possible, but because we have better alternatives.
    • Nobody hosts their own websites anymore and most platforms (large ones like Youtube, Facebook or Reddit, but also small ones like Lemmy) don't allow you to just upload whatever HTML5 code you want. So if you want to reach more people, you'll just upload a video instead.
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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago* (25 children)

    Sorry if this sounds a bit defensive, it's frustrating when someone writes a novel telling you're wrong but didn't spend the time to read what you wrote first.

    I didn't say it's not possible.
    I said that back when flash functionally died, it wasn't feasible.
    HTML 5 was barely supported by browsers. HTML 5 canvas had no support at all. WASM didn't have any support. Having flash animators and flash game devs manually code the JavaScript and HTML just wasn't realistic, and no tools existed at the time to span the gap.

    Now it is a little easier with things like canvas, and more importantly now there are tools that animators can use and export as a webpage.
    But in the intervening years, all the flash hosting websites died. Even newgrounds is a ghost of what it was. So even if the tools are there, the communities are all gone. Animators just export to video now, because that's where the viewers are.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (24 children)

    You mean in 2021 HTML5 was barely supported by browsers? Adobe ended support for Flash Player on 31th December 2020.

    For comparison, the original HTML5 W3C recommendation was retired in 2018 and even Version 5.3 was retired less than a month after Flash Player was retired.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (23 children)

    Functionally. Functionally. I said functionally for a reason. I didn't just add that word in because I liked how it looked.

    When was the last time you actually saw flash content?
    Browser extension support deteriorated. It never worked on iOS. People stopped making flash content because folks couldn't view it long before it officially became unsupported.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (22 children)

    Again: HTML5 was supported way, way before flash disappeared.

    https://caniuse.com/?search=canvas

    • Basic support in all major browsers since: 2012
    • WebGL support in all major browsers since: 2013
    • Full support in all major browsers since: 2013 (except Edge, which was released in 2015, IE didn't support everything)

    That's way before flash was discontinued. Except of on iOS, but smartphones were never the main platform for flash games/animation.

    Flash-style skeletal animation was a result of technical limitations, not a deliberate art choice. The thing that killed flash-style animation was (a) the availability of better things like full-motion rasterized video and (b) the internet moving away from personal websites and towards big platforms, and almost all big platforms restricted the kind of content you can post to text, images and video.

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  • [+] 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (11 children)
  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago* (10 children)

    A vector video format does exist: animated SVG. It has all the features you claim are missing.

    But nobody uses it because it is much more complicated to do than rasterized video and has no relevant advantages.

    You keep claiming that features don't exist even though every single one of these features do exist but are just not used a lot because they are more complicated and have no relevant benefits.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago* (3 children)

    A video has sound, can be exported from the animation software to a single file, and it can be played in a standard video player.

    Animated SVG does not sound like it does that, and needing new paid* software isn't great for adoption either. And honestly, I've never even heard of animated SVG (I'm well aware of SVG and that it probably could be animated with CSS or JS but that alone does not make it a thing).

    The fact that vector works at resolutions (even if they don't exist yet!) without the author even needing to think about it (let alone re-export) is an advantage. It can be great for many 2D aesthetics (many cartoons even used it!), the biggest complication is Adobe (and whoever is selling a subscription to what you mentioned).

    Also that people are still developing things with Flash (even if it has to be ran via Ruffle) tells me again that the issue isn't vector, it's that replacing a format with ingredients is not an effective strategy if you actually want people to use it.

    * yeah I know Flash was expensive as well (except y'know... other ways), but communities were already using it

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (2 children)

    The fact that vector works at resolutions (even if they don't exist yet!) without the author even needing to think about it (let alone re-export) is an advantage.

    That's why I was talking about meaningful advantages. Today, stuff gets exported in 4k and that's it. No need for anything more.

    That nobody uses animated SVG should give you a clue about how many people value vector graphics over rasterization. It has uses (mostly when you expect stuff to get zoomed a lot) but only in quite specific use cases.


    There's ton of free software that exports to HTML5, including most major game engines. And people use that a lot. In fact, you can make VR games that fully run in a browser.

    Browser games still exist. They run on HTML5 now, not on Flash. Web video still exists. It runs on HTML5 players, not on Flash. Little animations in websites still exist. They run on HTML5/SVG/CSS, not on Flash. Flash really was just replaced by HTML5, because it's plain better on every front.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

    Today, stuff gets exported in 4k and that’s it. No need for anything more.

    I don't think it's as ubiquitous as you think. 1080p is pretty much standard (aside from old videos), 4K is still high-end and most uploading to that on YT are probably more tech-leaning channels who actually do use it. I even see new stuff from TV corps that's still only 1080p.

    4K if you're using a full-raster workflow is taxing at every step. Display, CPU/GPU (for software stability, filters/effects), RAM and storage, internet upload speed, also camera (and fast storage there too) where relevant. Also backups, and maybe even higher-res workflow to allow room to crop/re-frame if needed.

    I imagine it must be a disappointment to actually buy a 4K monitor for content viewing, stuck watching 1080p on new videos because the creators can't afford that workflow or just don't care. Even stuff that is 4K might have issues with encoding quality due to cost-cutting (or requires higher subscription cost).

    8K is a thing too (but even more impractical), so the problem is repeated there too.

    So yeah, I would say it is a meaningful difference that vector doesn't have this problem.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    Tbh, Vector only marginally solves that issue. If it's a filmed video, then it doesn't solve it at all, since it just creates "vector pixels" instead, which don't scale either. So it would only work for artificially created videos, and there it would only work for 2D content, and only 2D content that doesn't use bitmaps in it.

    It's quite a limited subset of the videos one might watch. In fact, I can't remember the last time I watched a 2D purely PC generated video that wasn't a screen recording from some game (which is, almost per definition, also rasterized).

    The other problem there is that vector graphics can be rasterized into however many pixels you want, but the detail from the source material doesn't improve. Yes, the edges around a flat area are smoother, but it's still edges around a flat area.

    Compare the best flash animation you can find with some random demo video on youtube (or if you want to go to the extreme: with the graphics of some hollywood CGI). The infinite scalability of vector graphics won't make the flash animation look better than the raster graphics image.

    The "infinite scalability" of vector graphics are a mostly academic point unless you are e.g. designing a company logo that needs to look sharp both on a tiny stamp and on the side of the corporate headquarter.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    Spoken like someone who has never animated something in flash.

    Go ahead and try to make an animated music video in SVG. Tell me how easy it was. It's it something a middle schooler could pick up easily after a couple hours?

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  • [–] -1 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    Ok, tell me: How many people make animated music videos and publish them on Youtube, versus how many people make animated music videos and publish them as Flash videos in 2025?

    How many people did that in 2015 in Youtube vs Flash videos?

    Nobody cares about Flash because it sucks. Even back in 2012 Flash sucked. It was a really bad tech and by 2015 it was mostly used by people to dumb to learn real programming languages and frameworks.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (3 children)

    Where do you expect me to get actual numbers from?

    But as a proportion of content creators, back in the early 10s a huge proportion of content creators were submitting content to places like newgrounds. And itch.io equivalents all used flash.

    And around 2015, the total number dropped, but didn't have a corresponding increase in non-flash equivalents.

    Why? Because what few tools existed to do so had a much much much higher bar for entry. So the content simply never got created.

    Flash sucked as a content consumer because the plugins had mediocre support and were full of vulnerabilities.
    But as a creator, it was great.

    People too dumb to dumb to learn real programming languages and frameworks

    Eww. that's elitist as fuck.
    These people aren't software devs. They shouldn't need to learn to code in order to animate a video.
    For absolute shame. Wow.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (2 children)

    You know what, I can give you numbers:

    The table shows how YouTube's video count grew from 0.5 billion in 2015 to 5.1 billion in 2025. The biggest jumps happened in 2023 and 2025, with 800 million new videos each year.

    https://seo.ai/blog/how-many-videos-are-on-youtube

    Die Seite hat nach eigenen Angaben über 1.400.000 registrierte Mitglieder und über 660.000 Einträge (Stand: 7. April 2013).

    "The Site has, according to their own statements, over 1 400 000 registered users and over 660 000 entries (7th of April 2013).

    https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newgrounds

    (Had to resort to German Wikipedia, because their stats site has been down for a long time and wasn't saved in Webarchive.)

    So you see, even at the height of their popularity, they had about 1/1000 of the content of Youtube and compared to now, it's 1/10000. And that's only Youtube, not counting Facebook, Reddit, Tiktok, Instagram and all those other platforms people use to share their content.

    And around 2015, the total number dropped, but didn't have a corresponding increase in non-flash equivalents.

    So yes, there has been a massive, massive increase in non-flash video content, so much of an increase that flash looks like a tiny spec of a niche of internet history.

    In fact, most of the old flash videos have more views on youtube than they ever had in their original forms.

    Eww. that's elitist as fuck. These people aren't software devs. They shouldn't need to learn to code in order to animate a video. For absolute shame. Wow.

    And now you are getting onto something. No need to program when making a video for Youtube.

    Flash was abandoned as fast as possible as soon as newer, easier and better alternatives arrived.

    Those who wanted to code, left for JS. Those who wanted to make videos left for Youtube and the likes. Those who wanted to make games left for Unity and other engines.

    Flash was just outdated, old technology. Nothing else.

    You have been elitist as fuck throughout all your comments in this chain, thinking that you are somehow better than everyone else because you got stuck in some old software and didn't manage to migrate to something better.

    If you aren't a developer, don't claim to be.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

    So yes, there has been a massive, massive increase in non-flash video content

    how many of those are animated video. holy willful misinterpretation.

    In fact, most of the old flash videos have more views on youtube than they ever had in their original forms.

    what point do you think you're making here?
    this whole thread is lamenting the fall of interactive animation. you cant hide a funny mouse-over easter-eggs in a youtube video, like OP is talking about. The file sizes are huge.

    Flash was abandoned as fast as possible as soon as newer, easier and better alternatives arrived.

    except that the alternatives that fulfill the wants of OP are way harder to make the equivalent art.

    You have been elitist as fuck throughout all your comments in this chain, thinking that you are somehow better than everyone else because you got stuck in some old software and didn't manage to migrate to something better.

    Only because, as you demonstrated in the other thread, you've (willfully?) misread what I've said. meanwhile you've just told people "learn to code or pick up a camera, fuck the art that you actually wanted to make"

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    how many of those are animated video. holy willful misinterpretation.

    Definitely much, much more than anything that was ever made in flash. Also, flash animation started because there was nothing else that could fit into a size that was affordable enough to host and small enough to download over low bandwidth internet. Two constraints that don't matter any more.

    this whole thread is lamenting the fall of interactive animation. you cant hide a funny mouse-over easter-eggs in a youtube video, like OP is talking about.

    So now we are back to "needs programming", which you just said in your last comment that it is not what you are talking about. You aren't just moving the goal posts, you are switching them back and forth.

    The file sizes are huge.

    Who cares? It's not the early 2000s any more.

    except that the alternatives that fulfill the wants of OP are way harder to make the equivalent art.

    Again, you seem to think that Unity doesn't exist, same as you claimed above that Unity can only do 3D and you claimed you need to know how to program to use Unity. None of which is true.

    Only because, as you demonstrated in the other thread, you’ve (willfully?) misread what I’ve said. meanwhile you’ve just told people “learn to code or pick up a camera, fuck the art that you actually wanted to make”

    The art that YOU wanted to make. Apart from you and that other dude in this thread I have never actually heard of anyone being sad that Flash is gone.

    And if you really want to make flash stuff, you can use one of the dozens of Flash to HTML5 converters (that you apparently don't know exist) or a Flash on Webassembly implementation, which exist as well.

    You are crying over the loss of something that still exists, and people are not using it because it still sucks.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (10 children)

    Idk how old you are but it feels like you're just looking up dates without really understanding what it was like.

    I did flash animation.
    I am a developer (I prefer backend but we all have to do some web).
    I was an adult during that time.

    The textbook dates don't tell the story. I'm telling you that flash died long before support ended. I'm telling you that replacement tools didn't exist yet. I'm telling you that getting flash artists to try to animation using JavaScript was not feasible. It's crazy to me that you think that the existence of a basic canvas support means that artists had an realistic path to making their art.

    Smartphones weren't the main platform for flash, and that's why it died early.

    You've got a skewed view of what flash was used to animate. People made absolutely beautiful flash. Just like all art, there is good and bad. Flash made it accessible enough that bad amateurs could produce reasonable animations.
    Rasterized video was not better. What a crazy thing to say.
    Personal websites? You think that people mostly consumed flash animation and games from personal websites??? Where did you get this from?

    It feels like you're reading this from a timeline of major events instead of having lived it.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (9 children)

    Dude, I'be been developing HTML apps from 2008 on. Early HTML5 browser support was literally my job at that time.

    You seem to have totally ignored the next gen tech at that time and now you can't remember what happened back then.

    And now you are basing your whole argumentation on "you must be a kid".

    Kiddo, I'm likely pretty much the same age as you.

    You were the one who brought up canvas support. By 2015 you could export full 3D games made in Unity to HTML5. And that was certainly not the first, there were literally dozens of other engines that allowed export to HTML5/WebGL at that time.

    If you are too young to remember, that's not my problem, little child.

    Flash died because people moved to a better, more future-proof stack. And you claiming that little 2D animations in Flash were technically much, much better than full 3D rendering with GPU support is honestly wild.

    (If you want to get offensive because you don't have arguments, fine, I can get offensive too, little child.)

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (8 children)

    Flash. Animators. Weren't. Devs.

    I don't know how many times I need to beat this into your skull. I've never said it was impossible. I said it was setting the bar unfeasibly high for the vast vast majority of content creators. It was easy. The bar for entry was low. tons of literal children were making flash videos.

    And you're saying that "all they needed to do was become a software developer". Oh they just needed to learn unity and 3d modeling! Should be no problem for a 14yo, that's why we see so many 14yo indie devs making unity games.

    Be so for real.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (7 children)

    You were the one harping on how you were a great flash "developer".

    That was your argument. Now you are claiming that you weren't a developer. Make up your mind.

    Now you don't even know that Unity totally does 2D as well and that it's easier to use than Flash ever was. So your argument boils down to the fact that you don't know anything about the topic at hand.

    People who are making videos nowadays don't need to program either, they just animate a video and upload it to youtube. No programming needed.

    But it was you who claimed that "being a flash developer" is somehow superior to that.

    In fact, we do see a ton of kids making games e.g. using Unity or other tools. Have you ever heard of Roblox? That whole ecosystem is run by kids making games.

    You are just wildly out of touch and stuck in the past.

    Flash sucked. There's better alternatives today. You are out of touch.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (6 children)

    learn to read. where did I say I was a flash developer, let alone a great one?
    I'll tell you what I did say: I said I was an (amateur) flash animator starting in middleschool, and I was a developer (not flash) by the time flash was dying (which IMO is the early to mid 10s).

    fucking figure out what your argument even is.
    I keep saying "it was difficult for people back then to find alternatives that let them express their art as easily, and thats why it died"
    You keep talking about how easy it is now which is completely irrelevant. like your whole aside about roblox.
    then you keep dragging on textbook dates and stats, which tell you what happened, but not why.

    Now you don't even know that Unity totally does 2D as well and that it's easier to use than Flash ever was

    easier to use for what?
    For shits and giggles I decided to check out a tutorial on making 2D cutscenes in unity. and one on how to use unity Animator. and another for how to make cutscenes.
    and you're laughably wrong. And I didn't even use a modern version of flash, I used Macromedia FlashMX from 2002.
    you seem to have a gross misunderstanding about what animation outside of video games involves, especially as an amateur. if you want to argue that its easier now to make animation than it is back in 2015, I'll agree.
    if you want to argue that unity is now easier to make games than flash was back in 2015, I'll agree. If you want to argue that unity in 2015 was easier to make games than flash was in 2015, IDK what unity was like in 2015 but it wouldn't surprise me.

    but for you to say that prior to ~2015 it was easier to make 2D animation using unity or javascript+canvas/SVG than it was to make 2D animation in flash, then that is just crazy. its just ignorant.
    If you disagree, show me a unity/canvas animation tutorial that involves more than simple translation of a few pre-made sprites. Ideally one at least 10 years old, but I'd even accept a modern one.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (5 children)

    I did flash animation. I am a developer (I prefer backend but we all have to do some web). I was an adult during that time.

    This is what you said a bit above.

    This is what you are saying now:

    I’ll tell you what I did say: I said I was an (amateur) flash animator starting in middleschool, and I was a developer (not flash) by the time flash was dying (which IMO is the early to mid 10s).

    These two statements contradict. Were you an adult at the time or in middle school?

    If you say you weren't a flash developer, then why include that statement above, except to give yourself an air of fake authority as you did in the whole rest of the comment above where you tried to tell me that you are a great big adult, super old, and I am a child.

    If you became an adult in the mid 10s, then you are younger than me, kiddo.

    but for you to say that prior to ~2015 it was easier to make 2D animation using unity or javascript+canvas/SVG than it was to make 2D animation in flash, then that is just crazy. its just ignorant.

    There were plenty of tools to make 2D animation even before 2012. You just know your one single little tool and that's all you know. Congratulations.

    Heck, yes, even HTML+JS was for making 2D animations in 2010, because that was what I did back then. It was super easy, and as long as you didn't target IE with Vanilla JS, it was really really easy.

    Also:

    by the time flash was dying (which IMO is the early to mid 10s).

    but for you to say that prior to ~2015 it was easier to make 2D animation using unity or javascript+canvas/SVG than it was to make 2D animation in flash, then that is just crazy. its just ignorant.

    So how much time is between "mid 10s" and 2015?

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    I was avoiding my pending messages for fear of what bullshit you replied. I wish I waited longer.

    These two statements contradict. Were you an adult at the time or in middle school?

    Only if you're ignorant, or willfully misinterpreting.

    I learned flash animation in middle school.
    I was still doing it as a hobby as a young adult.
    I learned development in college.
    My use of flashmx gives me an idea of how difficult flash animation was.
    My career of development gives me an idea of how difficult doing JavaScript animation is.
    I was an adult, in the career of software dev, and a hobby of flash animation, when flash died.

    If you think that tools for web animation without flash were so easy in the mid-10s, then show some proof. Link me to a tutorial. I can link you to a flash tutorial if you want.

    Actually never mind, I'm done with your ignorant bullshit. You've gotten me to waste too much time on your absolute nonsense.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    Apparently you were neither a great flash dev nor a great software dev, but just someone who talks a lot.

    Being offensive doesn't make your point any more correct.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Apparently you can't read, so we both have things we need to work on 🤷

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  • Streaming video killed whatever Flash was.

    Flash took the binary categories of animation and video game and made it into a spectrum. Even when they were mostly animations, there would be some interactive elements. It was apparently a technical horror show, but it was used to create unique pieces of art that define a narrow era.

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  • [–] 14 points 1 year ago

    That's true, but there is a project called "ruffle" now, which is written in Rust and can play .swf files. So if you really want, you can still build Flash animations and share them online.

    Ruffle also runs in browsers, thanks to wasm.

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  • [–] 28 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    A lot of comments on here saying "but X is better". Y'all are missing the point though. These "better technologies" are not being used in the creative and fun ways that flash was - not to the scale that we saw in peak Newgrounds/HomestarRunner era. It goes to show that no one company should ever control tools and the stuff our works are built upon. A lesson we, as a society, sure struggle to learn.

    Don't get me wrong, my rose tinted glasses aren't all the way on. I remember critical infrastructure systems developed in flash of all fucking things.

    But a very real piece of the creative internet died with flash. Maybe it's a coincidence, and it's the corpo-sites we all congregate around now to blame. I don't know. Peak internet was 2000-2010 and I'll stake my flag on that hill - don't @ me.

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  • [–] 53 points 1 year ago (21 children)

    Nostalgia goggles in effect. Flash was crap while every other tech caught up and surpassed it. Even today CSS/HTML is replacing Javascript in their area simply because people realize it has gotten that good. People acting like there is no alternatives but in reality people just gave up on that stuff as everything became reddit, twitter, youtube and facebook. The HTML5 stack has always surpassed Flash there is no excuse for the dickheads in this thread acting otherwise. WebGL2 WebASM? I recently made a tool that uses the Web Bluetooth API thingy. Javascript frameworks compare to Flash. You cannot compare the modern web tech you don't bother with to Flash but you could compare it to Phaser.js.

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  • [–] [S] 22 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    My nostalgic sigh is about animations that became rasterized videos, thus losing any chance at being interactive or hiding easter eggs.

    I am glad we no longer have sites made in pure flash, but now we have different stupid shit that also blocks back/forward navigation, fucks up scroll bars, hogs the CPU and crashes the browser for no good reason.

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  • [–] 12 points 1 year ago* (1 child)

    Those last things you listed were all true of Flash too:

    1. Back forward buttons, working in a flash site?
    2. Scroll bars? Same thing.
    3. CPU usage? Same thing. (See: phone performance.)
    4. Crashes? It was the number one cause of crashes as reported by Apple when looking at their Safari crash logs. This was true of many plugins of that style from back in the day (being unstable).
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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (14 children)

    You are wrong. You probably never used it. There is no such tools to develop apps like was possible with flash.

    The argument that you can do with x technology today the same thing makes no sense. Today you have to be a skilled programer to do the same stuff and it might still work worse today as it did back then.

    HTML5 is nowhere near as capable. Webgl . Is there a graphical tool to use it? JavaScript tool? Dumbass Lottie files tools that cost 20$ per month and suck.

    And if you were a good programer in flash/flex, you could build apps just as stable as you can today.

    It's stupid that tech like this doesn't exist. Except for dumbass Rive - again 45$ per month and it sucks

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (9 children)

    HTML5 is nowhere near as capable. Webgl . Is there a graphical tool to use it? JavaScript tool?

    How about p5.js..?

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (8 children)

    That's just a web ide. Flash was a vector tool where you could for animate and also code.

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  • [–] 9 points 1 year ago* (7 children)

    It's not an IDE; p5.js is a programming language (originally based on Processing) intended to be easy to learn, and focused on making it easy for non-programmers to create art.

    You can use it to make anything you could make with Flash, and more (since it's not limited to vector animations).

    For instance, here's itch.io's page for games made in this language.

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  • [–] -1 points 1 year ago (6 children)

    You can use a notepad to create anything you want in web assembly, that's not the point.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    The point is that it's a tool (specifically a programming language) intended to allow non-programmers, and especially artists, to produce (possibly interactive) art viewable in any browser, which is essentially what flash was.

    No one codes directly in web assembly, on the other hand; you use programming languages that compile to web assembly. So I have no idea what point you're trying to make by mentioning it.

    I thought your point was that without flash we lacked a way for non-programmers to produce interactive art on the browser. I gave you a pretty solid option, which you discarded by calling it something it isn't and ignoring it's similar purpose to flash; other people gave you other solid options like modern HTML + CSS, which can currently pretty much do anything flash could without even using JavaScript (for instance, this game is made entirely in HTML + CSS, without any js), and you also discarded their answers without any rational argument.

    Now I'm not sure you have a point, unless it's simply to complain and dismiss any replies that attempt to be even remotely constructive.

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  • [–] -1 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    You clearly miss the point, intentionally or not intentionally, I don't know. I thought it's clear what the point is.

    On one hand you have a tool like flash an integrated tool similar to other design tools, timeline, coding interface (that works with the timeline and elements on the board, thousand of libraries intended for people using flash, vast community resources. On the other hand you have pure coding. Not sure what your issue is. I don't have time to go the full circle with you. That css game was made by a 10x programer. The same game would be made by a designer in flash.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    The point is that p5.js, like Processing, is designed to be easy to learn by people who are not familiar with programming, like your hypothetical designer.

    You're just blindly dismissing any option that isn't exactly flash.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    These two are very different to each other. One was created mainly for designers (though it evolved later ) the other was created to teach programers. That's quite different.

    But I appreciate that you feel strongly about p5js. I'm sure it's great and that it helped many people.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    I specifically stated 'modern web tech you don't bother with' for a reason. These ecosystems are bigger than random assholes with random asshole opinions.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (2 children)

    Yes, a lot of assholes around trying to find any possible, no matter how absurd way to insult people about the most pointless stuff.

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  • [–] 12 points 1 year ago

    It's also surprising that Newgrounds survived post-Flash.

    But i think i prefer point and click game like from TellTale better, it's an interactive movie.

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  • [–] 12 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    I have see a lot implementation of interactive html5, that I think is similar to flash.

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  • [–] 11 points 1 year ago

    Web 2.0 and the stiffling of the indie web is the issue to me.

    Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, TikTok, etc aren't built to cool web pages in front of people as those could leave people off of the site.

    There are some crazy cool html5 stuff out there.

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  • [–] 16 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    I built websites and apps in flash. It was awesome. You could do a lot, especially in the later years, 3d games, anything was possible.

    It was so easy and clean to create smooth animations, transformations, it was limitless. It's a travesty that we got no replacement. You could do more quicker in the year 2005, than you can do today.

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  • [–] 18 points 1 year ago* (3 children)

    All of that is possible with modern JS and WebGL

    Really I think a lot of this stems from a toolset designed for programmers, and not one designed for artists.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Sure it's possible, but you can't actually do it. Because you need a dedicated programer and you need to convey as a designer what to do, so it's time consuming and expensive. Elaborate scifi UIs are extremely rare now.

    After flash was killed, a big portion of creativity died with it. Every webpage started to look the same. I know I'm romanticizing it, but there is truth in that.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago

    Sure it’s possible, but you can’t actually do it. Because you need a dedicated programer

    I try to avoid recommending proprietary software but FYI the multimedia authoring tool formerly known as FutureSplash Animator which you presumably knew as Adobe Flash Professional (or perhaps Macromedia Flash before that) in fact lives on today as Adobe Animate and it can now target HTML5/SVG/WebGL/etc.

    There are also many free/libre open source alternatives to it.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago*

    There where just as many cheesy UI's done without flash back in the day. Its because web development became more of a commodity as more people got into it. Everything's been done and the cheapest thing to do is to slap together something using the framework of the month.

    These days, with the help of some LLM generating substandard, unchecked code.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago (6 children)

    People could use SVG animations + JS to accomplish the same thing. It just never took off for some reason

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  • [–] [S] 5 points 1 year ago* (5 children)

    My guess is because there's no "easy to use" program that allows them to make the whole thing then export for easy web visualization, most of the people who'd make animations won't want to write down keyframe positions and code for the animation proper

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    This is a great idea for a project honestly.

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  • [–] [S] 3 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    I guess the "easiest" way to approach it is to take a working JS game engine, like pixijs or melonjs or p5js, creating the animation editor with keyframes and whatnot, then allowing it to export as "web animation", which would be the javascript file + compacted resources

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    They actually did, Flash is still around (now called Animate), and can export to a HTML+JS bundle you can include on your own website.

    Problem is nobody uses their own websites these days, and you can't upload stuff like that to Twitter/Facebook/YouTube.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago

    There were lots of programs for making Flash content though, and there was a lot of knowledge about how to make stuff in it. There isn't the same culture of remixing stuff now. More interactive web games are also more server dependent even for elements where they don't need to be, unlike tons of old standalone flash games

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  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago*

    There is still no animation software that can match flash brush style / color or animation techniques.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

    Interactive Vector Animations as a web standard are technically possible, but it'd be best implemented as animation software that compiles a file/archive that's usable by a standard browser based client that renders things locally using a canvas element.

    In-fact its so possible flash has been re-impmenented this way using an action script interpreter compiled to web assembly.

    They didn't give you the entire kit because that wasn't the W3C's job, it was to give you the tools necessary to build the kit.

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