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[–] 506 points 1 year ago (56 children)

While I wouldn't wish this on anyone, it's amazing how self-destructive this is. Greta is an internationally famous activist. Flagrantly violating and abusing a person with world renown - along with dozens of other activists - is a radically stupid way to hasten international isolation.

It is well known by most in Israel that the country simply cannot function in isolation. It will lead to collapse. In this, they are giving the flotilla far more power to eventually overthrow the ruling regime.

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  • [–] 229 points 1 year ago (17 children)

    They just assume Uncle Sam will bail them out, no matter what. They are not wrong, much to the frustration of a large portion of the US population.

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  • [–] 79 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    The Americans are not the reliable partner they used to be.

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  • [–] 34 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    Reliable enough, unfortunately.

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  • [–] 46 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)

    I actually don't think that's true. One of the rare bright spots in Trump's generally unbroken record of catastrophe is that he is so unpredictable, and generally gives so little of a shit what happens to anyone outside himself, that the chances of Israel suffering some kind of great consequence and the US not bailing them out as we always do are greatly increased right now I think.

    Also, yes, I think this is possibly the greatest fuckup Israel could possibly have committed right now. It may be what finally turns the tide against them, after so many decades of nothing. Outside of literally nuking Gaza or Iran or something, I honestly can't think of anything worse for them than physically brutalizing a universally popular Western media personality for literally no reason at all.

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  • [–] 17 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Problem is, she's not popular with the type of people who vote for Trump. His demographic would take Israel's side on this one.

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  • [–] 9 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    I wasn't really thinking of them as part of "the Western world" tbh. I do understand that there's a loud contingent for whom she's just a stupid loudmouth FEMALE, maybe that is a fly in the ointment of my argument. I do think it'll still have a pretty significant impact.

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  • [–] 21 points 1 year ago (6 children)

    Thats on borrowed time. Money to isreal is one of the only issues left and right agree with. Someone is going to take advantage of that eventually and isrela is gonna get disconnected from the US teet

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  • [–] 14 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    I know you are probably American, so am I.

    We need to stop calling the Democrats the “left” party. They’re not.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Isn’t it relative though? They’re left of the Republicans so they are the left most choice Americans have.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago

    No because left means anti-capitalist. The Democratic Party is not anti-capitalist. Therefore, the Democratic Party is not a left party.

    However, they are a neoliberal party. Which, when compared to the Republican Party's existence as a fascist party, does certainly make the Democrats preferable. But just because they are preferable does not mean they are left

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Uncle Sam has Congestive Heart Failure. Their position is tenuous to be generous.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    If only it were that simple. The US still has an insanely powerful military. Historically a nation in decline, with an unpredictable leader, and a strong military is not very good for the world

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  • [–] 94 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    They have done worse to other protestors and faced zero accountability:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Corrie

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  • [–] 49 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    They've deliberately attacked the American Navy before and nothing came of it.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago (1 child)
  • [–] 78 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    While I wouldn’t wish this on anyone, it’s amazing how self-destructive this is. Greta is an internationally famous activist. Flagrantly violating and abusing a person with world renown - along with dozens of other activists - is a radically stupid way to hasten international isolation.

    You'd be correct most of the time, but this is Israel we are talking about. They know there won't be any consequences because claiming they did something wrong must mean you're a nazi, and even if you get over that, daddy USA is there to protect them anyway.

    Israel could livestream a soldier killing Greta and they would face no consequences whatsoever.

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  • [–] 67 points 1 year ago*

    They've gone so far over every red line that it literally doesn't matter anymore at this point. They're literally destroying an entire population - genocide - in full view of the world. What is some maltreatment of an activist in the face of all that? If indiscriminately bombing preschools and blowing up children with drones doesn't manage to do it, what will?

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  • [–] 67 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    There are reports from American doctors who worked in Gaza of Palestinian babies being regularly shot in the head.

    That was reported during the Biden administration.

    Israel is murdering babies, and it hasn't affected their support. Why would this matter?

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  • [–] 33 points 1 year ago

    Palestinian babies

    Plenty of people in The West^R^ don't consider them worthy of empathy, but a white woman of small stature who first became famous as a child might be a different story. We need a mass worldwide cultural shift to identifying all humans as part of the in group or we aren't going to make it through this century.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago*

    I should clarify what I mean a bit.

    I'm not saying that brutalizing Greta Thunberg is the straw that is going to break the camel's back. I'm saying that it's an escalation of a pattern of behavior that I think is very likely leading toward a collapse of the zionist project at some point in the next decade.

    The testimony of those doctors is absolutely part of the same pattern of behavior. And while a lot of folks have looked at the continuing genocide and concluded that clearly, nothing has mattered and nothing will, I believe it has, and it will.

    It's hard to describe succinctly, but Israel today is far, far, FAR weaker than Israel 5 years ago. There is an inertia that lets them feign invincibility, but the country is truly in times without precedent. The longest war since its establishment was 118 days in '82. So much of the assumptions on which Israel relies -- constant readiness, bipartisan US support, the total support of Europe, constant Jewish immigration, a strong labor force, a booming tourism industry -- is in shambles. Internal divisions are rending their society apart. Their economy, international influence, and social institutions are in crisis.

    In this context, this continued loss of an ability or willingness to be discrete in their atrocities really does bolster my conviction that in the next five years the country is going to collapse.

    Unlike many, I don't say this lightly or with glee. I just say it because it's what I foresee.

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  • [–] 57 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

    Remember when Elon Musk did a nazi salute on the world stage for all to see? Remember how we were trying to rationalize what the hell he was thinking? The simplest answer is that nazis at some point just can't help themselves and they end up saluting because they love doing it, they just need to show people who they are.

    Same logic I think applies here. Yes it is self-defeating, yes, it is stupid, and yes, it is gratuitous and dangerous. But these people working Ben Gvir's prisons? This is who they are. It's horrifically simple. The people working the Israeli prison system are low level functionaries of apartheid. These are not people who think in terms of strategy etc. If they had the capacity to think like that they wouldn't be there. It's as simple as that.

    /Edit: typos

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  • [–] 10 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Genuienly, how is it self destructive?

    Is this the red line that's going to result in...

    ... anything negative happening to Israel?

    Probably not, no.

    What, is somebody go to war with Israel and the US over Greta, not hundreds of thousands being starved shot blown up and lit on fire?

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago

    You make a good point. I think sadly it will not rise to the point of actual effect. It will inflame people who support her, and those folks are likely already inflamed over Gaza. Many others don’t give a shit about her or actively hate her, and they will either gloss over this or say “that’s what you get” or even “good.”

    My own mother, who is a feminist and wildlife advocate, loves to repost FB memes about her being an unrealistic virtue signalling twat who perfoms a low-carbon image while still not living up to the humble standards of the elbow-grease-powered older generations. It’s sad. Greta is incredibly polarizing, and some people just hate her for being young and idealistic.

    On the whole I don’t see this affecting anything. We live in an era of mutually exclusive mental models of reality and they can be incredibly well insulated.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (12 children)

    We also have no evidence any of this happened. It is easy to make propaganda when we want to believe it.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (11 children)

    The beating and flag kissing is sourced to another captive, and might be exaggerated, but her general mistreatment was reported by Swedish diplomats after speaking to her. It's pretty credible, imo.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (10 children)

    Do we have any sources that aren't biased toward making her treatment look bad?

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (9 children)

    Respectfully:

    Are you genuinely interested in exercising neutral skepticism? Or are you just arguing on the Internet against claims that run counter to your preferences for what you'd like to be true?

    (Be honest.)

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    neutral skepticism?

    Not OP but yes.

    But it really doesn't matter. All we'll get from this incident is word-of-mouth only.
    Those nazis are brazen but not stupid, they didn't film it.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (7 children)

    I sincerely believe that the world is a lot less extreme than what social media is telling us. Exceptions, yes, but those are exceptions. Most of the discussion that takes place anymore is driven by sociologically hacking us, done by interested parties to drive division and distrust. It happens on all sides. That doesn't mean you should drop your support for peaceful protest, aid delivery, etc., but it does mean we should be aware of propaganda and manipulation that confirms our own biases. The effect of the rush to extremes is that we then create extreme situations. The world is getting uglier and uglier, largely driven by this problem.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (6 children)

    Does this cut both ways? Because I agree with what you: we should not reflexively believe sensationalist claims because they reinforce our preferred view of the world.

    But under the exact same logic, we also should avoid dismissing sensationalist claims because they contradict our preferred view of the world.

    Being aware of the manipulation you mentioned, and the fact that forces are trying to manipulate you in both directions on this issue... do you have any credible reason to dismiss testimony by Greta Thunberg to a Swedish diplomat regarding the treatment she experienced?

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (5 children)

    Sensationalists claims stop being sensationalist when they are confirmed with objectively verifiable facts. That's when claims should be accepted. Until then, the burden of proof is on the one making the claim.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (4 children)

    So where does this fall for you?

    Two weeks after the alleged incidents, we have further reported details. Greta Thunburg has given a lengthily interview to Aftonbladet. In it she alleges that she was tortured in captivity. She also shows off her suitcase, which bears Israeli vandalism. Her story is corroborated by interviews with numerous witnesses, including journalists such as Saverio Tommasi.

    Thunburg describes a visit by the Israeli Minister of National Security, Itmar Ben G'vir. Ben G'vir has confirmed this, and released footage of the event. Though the foreign minister has denied the claims that she and the other activists were tortured, Ben G'vir has expressed pride that they were made to suffer. He described them as terrorists. This was reported by The Times of Israel. This should be understood in the context that he is responsible for overseeing their treatment, and he has repeatedly expressed that he believes that terrorists in captivity should be tortured.

    So my question, again, is whether you'd say that Greta Thunberg's claims to have endured torture in Israeli captivity, during which time she was beaten, starved, and subjected to solitary confinement can be considered objectively verified.

    I think so. I think the original report was fairly credible, and I think subsequent reporting thoroughly substantiates it by rigorous journalistic standards. Would you agree with this?

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (3 children)

    The description of events she provided should have produced physical evidence. Bruises at a minimum. Did she publish photo evidence?

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (2 children)

    You know, that's kind of a weird response. Because what I asked was whether or not my interpretation of a set of events fulfilled your criteria for credibility. And instead of answering a pretty simple yes-no question you asked whether Greta Thunberg has published photos of her unclothed body.

    I feel like you responded in your head, and then imagined my response, and then wrote a response to that.

    But I think I can infer that you're unconvinced.

    Now I gotta ask: if that's your standard of evidence, do you also doubt the veracity of the Israeli hostages returned from Gaza who attested to being tortured and abused?

    If not, I think you're exercising some pretty "selective" skepticism. And if so, congrats on your neutrality but Jesus Christ, that's fucked up. When anyone gets back from captivity and alleges that they were abused or raped or violated, requiring them to expose themselves to you as the price to have their claims considered is quite gross. It's not even an effective form of proof. Most torture is markless, and bruises are easily faked.

    I'm not asking you to "believe women" or accept any victim narrative unexamined. I'm just pointing out that you can judge victims credibility without demanding that they submit to your leering gaze. Don't believe Greta? Fine. I think that just as the hostages are far more credible witnesses to their own treatment than Hamas, the hundreds of flotilla activists testimony is far, far more credible than IDF. But you do you.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

    I'll be honest, I've only seen a few images of hostages returned to Israel and all of them looked healthy. I had expected their condition to be worse. That said, I've not looked at any video and only a few images, so I could be missing something. What are the allegations and evidence of allegations being provided by those who have been returned? I'm not invested in either side of that conflict, so I don't feel a need for either side to be the "right" side.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago*

    Reported experiences vary between the hundreds of hostages, but in general, public statements have been inspecific declarations that they went through hell. A smaller number have spoken more publicly and described specific horrible abuses. Prisoners released by Israel largely mirror this, which is consistent with an abundance of public evidence that Israel operates extremely brutal extrajudicial torture camps.

    But honestly, I'm not sure why we're still talking about this. This started because you said that you believe it's important to exercise skepticism towards sensationalist claims, and I pointed out that it's equally dangerous to ignore credible atrocities because they are too shocking.

    The situation in Israel/Palestine is really not that complicated. If you're unaware because you're not following it, that's fine, but then I think it's ignorant to demand extreme forms of evidence for things which are already well documented that you can't be bothered to review.

    The US is materially supporting a state sponsor of terrorism in broad daylight. This is publicly acknowledged by experts and major figures within Israel. Do with that information what you will.

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  • [–] 83 points 1 year ago (12 children)

    Swedish gov should cut all ties for this terrorist state torturing their citizens.

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  • [–] 19 points 1 year ago (11 children)

    They are too busy renting prisons in Estonia.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago (10 children)

    There is nothing wrong with the prisons in Estonia.

    What is the point of your comment?

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  • [+] -7 points 1 year ago (9 children)

    I'm sure there are nothing wrong with the prisons in El Salvador either...

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  • [–] 14 points 1 year ago (8 children)

    Are you seriously comparing Estonia to El Salvador? Do you know anything about Estonia?

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (7 children)

    Comparatively, the Prisons in USA vs. El Salvador are likely equal.

    Comparatively the prisons in Sweden vs. Estonia will be similar.

    But you're still sending prisoners off to a foreign land, might as well start calling you Britain.

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  • [–] 14 points 1 year ago (6 children)

    Don't bad mouth Estonia without reason. The comparison to El Salvador is insulting.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago* (1 child)

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/jul/12/sweden-set-to-rent-cells-in-estonian-jails-as-it-runs-out-of-room-for-its-prisoners

    Estonia is not the target of comparison here.

    PS: When you read „country A is renting prisons in country B”, your first reaction should be „what the fuck is going on in country A”, not „what’s wrong with prisons in country B”. The fact that it wasn’t tells a lot about your character.

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  • [+] -6 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    Why do you tediously give so much of a fuck about Estonia in the first place?

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  • [–] 58 points 1 year ago

    The most expected outcome of the expedition.

    Exactly the kind of thing Israel would do. Very consistent and predictable of them.

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  • [–] 51 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Wow, Israel really is the only democracy in the Middle East!

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  • [–] 51 points 1 year ago

    Israel to Nazis: When I left you I was but the learner now I am the master.

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  • [–] 170 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    Israel is a fucking terrorist country. IDF is a new SS. They are new Nazi.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago

    And if you know the history of Zionism, then you'll know that both the Zionist and National Socialist parties in pre-WWII Germany and Europe complemented each other.

    The Nazis got going before the Zions did, but both are siblings of each other.

    The Zions have had time to more perfect their fascism tho

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