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[+] 28 points 1 year ago (1 child)
  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago

    colonies gang, how are you going to upload your AI brain to the metaverse to avoid your garbage society when the chip foundry gets annexed and a Steam Deck is going for $140K because they're viable missile guidance systems

    just curious what the plan is for the "living in the colonies is going fine" gang

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  • [–] 30 points 1 year ago (12 children)

    It's almost like socialism works and US propagandists have been telling us nothing but lies.

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  • [+] -21 points 1 year ago (10 children)
  • [–] 13 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    Travel to both China and the US and say that again. I'll promise you, you won't.

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  • [+] -11 points 1 year ago (4 children)
  • [–] 10 points 1 year ago* (3 children)

    Have you been to both? Or are you just so small minded you believe you know everything almost 2b people and the 2 biggest economies have to offer?

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  • [+] -6 points 1 year ago (2 children)
  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago*

    Comrade, you may dislike China; and certainly it's got its problems. It's terrible indeed.

    Yet where is the USA, if the American president supports UnitedHealthcare? Where is the USA, when its leaders siphon money from you, and try to tell you you're one of them, when you clearly aren't? Where is the USA, when Trump hides all Epstein evidence away?

    Has America ever actually let you improve? Can you develop yourself when you live in fear and panic?

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    I'm an American living in China so maybe you can understand why I would be confused.

    Did something go seriously wrong when you were in each country? Like I won't return to America if I can avoid it, but there's still aspects of it I get homesick for, namely the nature and food, and the convenience, price, and scale of cities in China is just good for your soul.

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    [–] 42 points 1 year ago (26 children)

    This thread is a testament to the years of china bad slop that white supremacist liberals have been eating.

    Major props to all the patient comrades below trying to educate these stubborn klansmen.

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  • [+] -21 points 1 year ago (16 children)

    Wait, I'm a white supremacist because I don't want China - or anyone else - to manipulate Tibet or persecute Uygurs? I'm a Klansman because I lean to supporting Taiwan's independence?

    Do, like, MLs just hate everyone? Honestly, why are MLs so extremely hostile to people they don't 100% agree with?

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  • [–] 34 points 1 year ago (6 children)

    to manipulate Tibet or persecute Uygurs

    The people selling this false narrative are white supremacists, not the Tibetan or Uyghur people.

    I'm a Klansman because I lean to supporting Taiwan's independence?

    Taiwan is pretty much if the US confederates lost the civil war, then escaped to Cuba, killed all the people there, and set up a state. Read about what mass killings the Kuomintang did to the indigenous peoples of Taiwan when they escaped there.

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  • [+] -6 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    I didn't make my point clear. I don't have any strong opinions on these matters I brought up, outside "genocide is bad" and other basic ethics. I'm admitting I don't know much about them, not due to apathy but due to.... just information fucking overload. It's absurd to equate me with white supremacists just because I can't keep up with everything going on in the world to exacting detail.

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  • [–] 26 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    I apologize for being too combative... it just gets exhausting for us to debunk the same points over and over again, especially since the US has a near total monopoly on anglophone media sources.

    We should oppose actual genocide, like the one Israel is carrying out on the Palestinian people with US help, not fake ones like the "white genocide" or "uyghur genocide" which are employed against perceived enemies of the white/western world.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (2 children)

    Just want to say thank you for understanding :) I absolutely agree about the genocide in Gaza and any invented "white genocide." But with something like Xinjiang, I don't think I can make a call about it, you know? I appreciate your understanding that it's not as clear-cut to everyone about what's going on in the world. It doesn't necessarily make me agree or disagree with you, but it absolutely makes want more to be an ally of yours.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    No problem, thx!

    I def recommend reading about the US's many campaigns historically to accuse their enemies of doing the thing they themselves are guilty of. A few good ones off the top of my head are Paul Williams - Operation Gladio and William Blum - Killing Hope

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  • [–] 18 points 1 year ago*

    There is no genocide in Xinjiang nor, as the accusation used to go, in Tibet. Frivolously accusing an enemy of the west that it's committing genocide, the crime of crimes, when those accusations mainly feed into narratives used to try to balkanize that enemy of the west does present a certain impression. I have no opinion on your character, but I would gently suggest that if you don't have a strong opinion then it doesn't make sense to go around making confident assertions, as you clearly did in the case of Xinjiang (because you surely know the argument being suggested by Cowbee and company is not that the PRC is committing genocide and that such a genocide would be good).

    Your statement on Taiwan is perfectly consistent with how you characterize yourself, however we might disagree, because it was expressed as supporting a side in an issue where there is some consensus on what the sides represent, though obviously I and other communists will say that if you want an independent Taiwan, you I guess want a global revolution because in the current world there is no possibility for an independent Taiwan, like there is no possibility for an independent Tibet, because it will either be part of China or it will be controlled by the US.

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  • [+] 40 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (8 children)
  • [+] -13 points 1 year ago (7 children)

    That's very diplomatic, and I appreciate you taking my question seriously. But Dess is a core personality of the Lemmyverse and insulting a huge swathes of people using their platform really puts a lot of distance between the ML community and people they could potentially sway.

    Unless MLs aren't interested in swaying more people to their side and just want to preach to the choir.

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  • [–] 21 points 1 year ago* (6 children)

    I'm going to continue being wrong and harmful because you were mean pointing out that I was wrong and harmful

    My petty feelings are literally the most important thing in the world so I will never look past them

    You're not talking down to me. I'm talking down to you. So now I feel better. I'm the adult here. I'm good.

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  • [+] -13 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    Are... are you trying to shame me into agreeing with you? Does the "militant" in Militant Leftist actually mean rageposting and not armed resistance?

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  • [–] 16 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    If you can be faithful to my position and at the same time make me look like a stupid baby you could very well convince me through shame to rethink my position.

    Are you without shame? Can you not be compelled to change your behavior through the negative regard of others?

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Listen, random people on the internet try to shame me all the time. It happens even when I don't interact. But it's no indication if a viewpoint is "correct" or whatever.

    Also, agreeing with you about genocides or the events in certain parts of the world or anything is completely separate from supporting you. MLs seem to think that they're one in the same, that anyone who doesn't agree 100% with them are enemies. Even if I did agree with you, black-and-white broad-stroke insults make people not want to work with you.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago

    I specifically criticized you for what you did and you come back whining about 'black and white' and 'broad stroke'

    You took four days to respond and your reply could have been to a comment on any topic that you didn't like.

    It's like you've forgotten how to interact with the outside world on the most basic level

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  • [–] 19 points 1 year ago*

    No, they are saying that you're diverting a conversation from who is correct to whether or not your interlocutor was rude to you as a waiver for disregarding the substance of what they said. You can disagree, but presenting yourself as having not been courted appropriately is not going to be taken seriously.

    I do actually agree with you that they should speak more gently. Their current behavior is a maladaptive coping mechanism from being inundated with literally thousands and thousands of Redditors who say mostly the same things and won't flinch before likening them to a Nazi or something.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago*

    manipulate Tibet

    Was not Tibet having theocracy and serfdom?

    Uyghurs

    Who were the folk mainly raising the point of Uyghurs tho?
    The white supremacist govts who are enabling and engaging in the Genocide in Palestine?

    Like, for MLs this would seem like anti-vaxx conspiracies, right?

    Taiwan's independence

    Both of them are named Republics of China, right?
    Their own people also seem to wish for reunification, right? Tho, they obviously seem to have dissimilar opinions on which govt they should come under after unification.

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  • [+] -7 points 1 year ago (6 children)

    Why do you use the liberal label? I've been hearing this "China bad" shit from the right for years

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  • [–] 17 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    Because the entire US political spectrum fits nearly inside of "neoliberalism". Liberalism in general is just capitalism+.

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  • [–] -2 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    I think the world liberal is used... Liberally. I usually equate it in the US political term for left of center (or rather the opposite of conservatives), but I know the entire US political system is hijacked - both "sides" answer to the same overlords

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    The general, international use of "liberal" used here and in leftist circles refers to economic liberalism, which is favoring capitalism (private control of the means of production), free markets, and individualism.

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  • [–] 25 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (43 children)

    Okay I would just upvote and move on, but you're clearly baiting with that title so if it's alright with you let's have some banter :P

    If I say that

    • the meme is on point
    • material conditions in China are to some extent better than the US
    • the US is definitely worse to its own people and the world
    • I'm staunchly anti-capitalist

    but I also say that I still don't like the Chinese state because I don't consider that (and ML in general) a form of worker-owned means of production (whether or not you agree)

    Am I a "lib"?

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  • [–] 14 points 1 year ago

    but I also say that I still don’t like the Chinese state because I don’t consider that (and ML in general) a form of worker-owned means of production (whether or not you agree)

    "Socialism is worker ownership of the means of production" is a syndicalist distortion of socialism. Workers should control the means of production, as in their operation should be based on popular consensus, but "ownership" suggests something like cooperatives (or, you know, syndicates), which operate on the same market system and a permutation of petite-bourgeois races to the bottom that we see under capitalism.

    The people must control the state, "win the battle of democracy," and via their control of the state dictate what happens to the means of production. Specific ownership is a secondary concern, though I agree with what I assume your position is, that the bourgeoisie have been granted too much power and authority in China.

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  • [–] 23 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    but I also say that I still don't like the Chinese state because I don't consider that (and ML in general) a form of worker-owned means of production (whether or not you agree)

    We've shown many times how the PRC is a worker-owned-and-controlled econoxy, and how the worker's congresses function in action.

    If you don't consider any actually existing country that's trying to build socialism "up to your standard", then you should re-evaluate the basis of your opposition. If you kow-tow to every western-supremacist talking point about how Vietnam, the PRC, the DPRK, and Cuba "aren't doing socialism correctly because they aren't as smart as [insert western-supremacist marxist here], then yes, you are a liberal.

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  • [+] 21 points 1 year ago (23 children)
  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (22 children)

    It's mostly to do with how the workers aren't in control of anything

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  • [+] 18 points 1 year ago (20 children)
  • [+] -6 points 1 year ago (20 children)
  • [–] 24 points 1 year ago (11 children)

    Compared to the robust system of democracy in the US where corporations buy elections and the average person never gets to see a single policy enacted that benefits them? Is that what you're comparing China to?

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  • [+] -21 points 1 year ago (9 children)

    No lol. I mean, inarguably the us is more free by and large than china (usually, I'm talking normal timeline USA) but neither is a democracy.

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  • [–] 17 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

    usually, I’m talking normal timeline USA

    Ah yes just ignore the blatant counterexample.

    There's no other timeline genius, this is what the US system had been building up to for decades. This is the intended result, not an accident.

    You know, Sparta was the actually most peaceful city in Ancient Greece (usually, I'm talking when they're not at war).

    Edit: Also, there definitely is an algorithm that can determine if any other algorithm will halt or not (usually, I'm talking when you're not feeding its own source code back into itself).

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  • [–] 26 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    You're just talking out your ass here lmao. This is objectively not true.

    China has better infrastructure. Better education. Better affordable healthcare (and they are rapidly about to eclipse the US in our capabilities). 90+% of Chinese people own their own homes. China is one of the safest countries in the world.

    What freedom are you talking about? The freedom to die on the streets from preventable illness? The freedom to work 40+hrs a week and live out of your car because you are priced out of housing? The freedom to get shot at the grocery store because someone with a gun is having a mental episode? The freedom to get brutalized by an unaccountable police force?

    What freedoms are you talking about?

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  • [+] -16 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Oh yes, the 40 hour work week, what a nightmare, china has it much better.

    No brutal police either that's for sure, I DEFINITELY AGREE WITH YOU COMRADE, BECAUSE TO DO OTHERWISE WOULD BE UNPATRIOTIC.

    I guess at this point I need to just conclude you're a tankie or a bot and stop wasting my time

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  • [–] 18 points 1 year ago

    Hey this is nothing. Like, what are you talking about? Why can’t you give a coherent answer.

    CHINA BAD is not an answer. It’s okay if you don’t know something but stop screaming nonsense.

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  • [+] 16 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (8 children)
  • [+] -15 points 1 year ago (6 children)
  • [+] 15 points 1 year ago (6 children)
  • [+] -13 points 1 year ago (6 children)
  • [–] 16 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    Why do you liberal trolls just vague-post when you don't know what you're talking about?

    You're not impressing anyone, and you would do better to actually read.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    the users of .world passed around curated lists of "tankie trolls" to newbies so that they can be blocked before ever interacting with them; how about doing something like this for lib trolls?

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  • [–] 17 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Nah, let the stormfront / kiwifarms people distribute lists of targets / witches they feel need burning.

    That's not our role as communists. In the words of Omar Mukhtar - "They are not our teachers"

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago

    Respectfully, lessons come in many guides, they just don't teach what they think they teach. That is, we've seen many iterations of lessons of what doesn't work for the people, unless it's new ways of oppression, suppression, a learned ignorance that can convince us we're smart.

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  • [+] 16 points 1 year ago (2 children)
  • [+] -11 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    If we want to be formal about it, you've just asserted a bunch of no sense claims without evidence. Go ahead and show us concretely the control the Chinese working class have over their political system.

    And maybe not with polls that include people under 24/7 surveillance by the party.

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  • [+] -14 points 1 year ago (10 children)

    I've been to China plenty, they def aren't living like this lol. Who believes this shit.

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  • [–] 17 points 1 year ago (9 children)

    That's funny because literally China is one of the countries with the highest approval of their government by independent studies.

    So even if you're telling the truth the vast majority of the Chinese people disagree with your sentiment.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (8 children)

    Their comment wasn't about government approval.

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  • [–] 16 points 1 year ago (7 children)

    Do you think a people who were living in poverty and had terrible living conditions would be overwhelmingly supportive of their government? Come on now think for a second here.

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  • [–] -2 points 1 year ago (6 children)

    The following is just a really odd way to convince someone of something in my opinion.

    1. "China is one of the countries with the highest approval of their government by independent studies."
    2. Government approval is inversely correlated with poverty and terrible living conditions.
    3. Therefore it is unlikely that "they def aren't living like this"

    It's also especially odd if you're mentioning independent studies. Are there not independent studies about the living conditions?

    And to be clear, I don't even disagree with you. I think a lot of westerners are affected by racist/orientalist views (or whatever you wanna call them) without realizing it. It just felt like a strange way to counter the thought process.

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  • [–] 14 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    I mention "independent studies" because people are insane and will call anything pro-China you say as just Chinese propaganda.

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  • [–] -3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (4 children)

    Nothing I was said was about "independent studies" versus "studies". I get your point, I'm just saying that wasn't part of what I found odd. I only used the phrase independent studies instead of studies because you did.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)

    Brother I only said what I said because you literally said you thought me saying it was weird.

    If you want to look at living standards you can compare cost of living, access to public transportation, cost of food, medicine, you name it. Its all cheaper and rapidly approaching parity with the west, if not already surpassing it.

    But again living standards are often highly correlated with approval of your nation and the government running it.

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  • [–] -5 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    I feel like there's some hostility or defensiveness and we keep talking past each other when trying to resolve it, so I'm going to drop the topic because I don't think there are actually any disagreements between us.

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  • [–] -5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (5 children)

    the meme is on point

    I disagree: they could've used real photos instead of AI generated images.

    e.g. I looked at a map and picked the first large city I saw that I've never heard of, then looked up some images: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Nanjing%2C+Jiangsu%2C+China&iar=images&t=h_

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  • [–] -2 points 1 year ago* (2 children)
  • [–] 13 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 child)

    Pretty sure that's a toll booth. They widen to allow cars to queue and then narrow back down to transition back to free flowing traffic. It's not a 50 lane highway merging to 20 lanes, it's a 20 lane highway widening into a 50 lane queuing area and then merging back to 20 lanes to continue being a highway.

    Here's one in the glorious freedom country:

    (Source)

    Is this a 20 lane highway merging into a 3 lane bridge?

    But yes, China does have a car dependency problem. Something the government has acknowledged and is implementing aggressive policies to combat. From building full metro systems in all major cities in the same time it takes NIMBYs in America to shoot down a single line, to high speed rail, to literally restricting who can drive on what days based on whether you have an odd or even first number on your license plate. What's America doing? Oh right, doubling down on car dependency and killing what little alternatives there were and calling people who speak out against it "woke."

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    [–] 10 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    Would've been better if real images were used for China

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  • [–] 18 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    They are real pictures. Here's another city you've never heard of.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (2 children)

    Please name the 2 cities on the bottom right of the OP image, then

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