you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[–] 25 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (43 children)

Okay I would just upvote and move on, but you're clearly baiting with that title so if it's alright with you let's have some banter :P

If I say that

  • the meme is on point
  • material conditions in China are to some extent better than the US
  • the US is definitely worse to its own people and the world
  • I'm staunchly anti-capitalist

but I also say that I still don't like the Chinese state because I don't consider that (and ML in general) a form of worker-owned means of production (whether or not you agree)

Am I a "lib"?

  • source
  • hideshow 43 child comments
  • [–] 14 points 1 year ago

    but I also say that I still don’t like the Chinese state because I don’t consider that (and ML in general) a form of worker-owned means of production (whether or not you agree)

    "Socialism is worker ownership of the means of production" is a syndicalist distortion of socialism. Workers should control the means of production, as in their operation should be based on popular consensus, but "ownership" suggests something like cooperatives (or, you know, syndicates), which operate on the same market system and a permutation of petite-bourgeois races to the bottom that we see under capitalism.

    The people must control the state, "win the battle of democracy," and via their control of the state dictate what happens to the means of production. Specific ownership is a secondary concern, though I agree with what I assume your position is, that the bourgeoisie have been granted too much power and authority in China.

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 23 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    but I also say that I still don't like the Chinese state because I don't consider that (and ML in general) a form of worker-owned means of production (whether or not you agree)

    We've shown many times how the PRC is a worker-owned-and-controlled econoxy, and how the worker's congresses function in action.

    If you don't consider any actually existing country that's trying to build socialism "up to your standard", then you should re-evaluate the basis of your opposition. If you kow-tow to every western-supremacist talking point about how Vietnam, the PRC, the DPRK, and Cuba "aren't doing socialism correctly because they aren't as smart as [insert western-supremacist marxist here], then yes, you are a liberal.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • [+] 21 points 1 year ago (23 children)
  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (22 children)

    It's mostly to do with how the workers aren't in control of anything

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 22 child comments
  • [+] 18 points 1 year ago (20 children)
  • [+] -6 points 1 year ago (20 children)
  • [–] 24 points 1 year ago (11 children)

    Compared to the robust system of democracy in the US where corporations buy elections and the average person never gets to see a single policy enacted that benefits them? Is that what you're comparing China to?

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 11 child comments
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • [–] 17 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

    usually, I’m talking normal timeline USA

    Ah yes just ignore the blatant counterexample.

    There's no other timeline genius, this is what the US system had been building up to for decades. This is the intended result, not an accident.

    You know, Sparta was the actually most peaceful city in Ancient Greece (usually, I'm talking when they're not at war).

    Edit: Also, there definitely is an algorithm that can determine if any other algorithm will halt or not (usually, I'm talking when you're not feeding its own source code back into itself).

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 26 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    You're just talking out your ass here lmao. This is objectively not true.

    China has better infrastructure. Better education. Better affordable healthcare (and they are rapidly about to eclipse the US in our capabilities). 90+% of Chinese people own their own homes. China is one of the safest countries in the world.

    What freedom are you talking about? The freedom to die on the streets from preventable illness? The freedom to work 40+hrs a week and live out of your car because you are priced out of housing? The freedom to get shot at the grocery store because someone with a gun is having a mental episode? The freedom to get brutalized by an unaccountable police force?

    What freedoms are you talking about?

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 3 child comments
  • [+] -16 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Oh yes, the 40 hour work week, what a nightmare, china has it much better.

    No brutal police either that's for sure, I DEFINITELY AGREE WITH YOU COMRADE, BECAUSE TO DO OTHERWISE WOULD BE UNPATRIOTIC.

    I guess at this point I need to just conclude you're a tankie or a bot and stop wasting my time

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • [–] 18 points 1 year ago

    Hey this is nothing. Like, what are you talking about? Why can’t you give a coherent answer.

    CHINA BAD is not an answer. It’s okay if you don’t know something but stop screaming nonsense.

  • source
  • parent
  • [+] 16 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (8 children)
  • [+] -15 points 1 year ago (6 children)
  • [+] 15 points 1 year ago (6 children)
  • [+] -13 points 1 year ago (6 children)
  • [–] 16 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    Why do you liberal trolls just vague-post when you don't know what you're talking about?

    You're not impressing anyone, and you would do better to actually read.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 3 child comments
  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    the users of .world passed around curated lists of "tankie trolls" to newbies so that they can be blocked before ever interacting with them; how about doing something like this for lib trolls?

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • [–] 17 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Nah, let the stormfront / kiwifarms people distribute lists of targets / witches they feel need burning.

    That's not our role as communists. In the words of Omar Mukhtar - "They are not our teachers"

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago

    Respectfully, lessons come in many guides, they just don't teach what they think they teach. That is, we've seen many iterations of lessons of what doesn't work for the people, unless it's new ways of oppression, suppression, a learned ignorance that can convince us we're smart.

  • source
  • parent
  • [+] 16 points 1 year ago (2 children)
  • [+] -11 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    If we want to be formal about it, you've just asserted a bunch of no sense claims without evidence. Go ahead and show us concretely the control the Chinese working class have over their political system.

    And maybe not with polls that include people under 24/7 surveillance by the party.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • load more comments (-1 replies)
  • load more comments (-1 replies)
  • load more comments (-1 replies)
  • load more comments (-1 replies)
  • load more comments (-1 replies)
  • load more comments (-1 replies)
  • [+] -14 points 1 year ago (10 children)

    I've been to China plenty, they def aren't living like this lol. Who believes this shit.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 10 child comments
  • [–] 17 points 1 year ago (9 children)

    That's funny because literally China is one of the countries with the highest approval of their government by independent studies.

    So even if you're telling the truth the vast majority of the Chinese people disagree with your sentiment.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 9 child comments
  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (8 children)

    Their comment wasn't about government approval.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 8 child comments
  • [–] 16 points 1 year ago (7 children)

    Do you think a people who were living in poverty and had terrible living conditions would be overwhelmingly supportive of their government? Come on now think for a second here.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 7 child comments
  • [–] -2 points 1 year ago (6 children)

    The following is just a really odd way to convince someone of something in my opinion.

    1. "China is one of the countries with the highest approval of their government by independent studies."
    2. Government approval is inversely correlated with poverty and terrible living conditions.
    3. Therefore it is unlikely that "they def aren't living like this"

    It's also especially odd if you're mentioning independent studies. Are there not independent studies about the living conditions?

    And to be clear, I don't even disagree with you. I think a lot of westerners are affected by racist/orientalist views (or whatever you wanna call them) without realizing it. It just felt like a strange way to counter the thought process.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 6 child comments
  • [–] 14 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    I mention "independent studies" because people are insane and will call anything pro-China you say as just Chinese propaganda.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 5 child comments
  • [–] -3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (4 children)

    Nothing I was said was about "independent studies" versus "studies". I get your point, I'm just saying that wasn't part of what I found odd. I only used the phrase independent studies instead of studies because you did.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 4 child comments
  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)

    Brother I only said what I said because you literally said you thought me saying it was weird.

    If you want to look at living standards you can compare cost of living, access to public transportation, cost of food, medicine, you name it. Its all cheaper and rapidly approaching parity with the west, if not already surpassing it.

    But again living standards are often highly correlated with approval of your nation and the government running it.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 3 child comments
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • load more comments (1 reply)
  • [–] -5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (5 children)

    the meme is on point

    I disagree: they could've used real photos instead of AI generated images.

    e.g. I looked at a map and picked the first large city I saw that I've never heard of, then looked up some images: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Nanjing%2C+Jiangsu%2C+China&iar=images&t=h_

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 5 child comments
  • [–] -2 points 1 year ago* (2 children)
  • [–] 13 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 child)

    Pretty sure that's a toll booth. They widen to allow cars to queue and then narrow back down to transition back to free flowing traffic. It's not a 50 lane highway merging to 20 lanes, it's a 20 lane highway widening into a 50 lane queuing area and then merging back to 20 lanes to continue being a highway.

    Here's one in the glorious freedom country:

    (Source)

    Is this a 20 lane highway merging into a 3 lane bridge?

    But yes, China does have a car dependency problem. Something the government has acknowledged and is implementing aggressive policies to combat. From building full metro systems in all major cities in the same time it takes NIMBYs in America to shoot down a single line, to high speed rail, to literally restricting who can drive on what days based on whether you have an odd or even first number on your license plate. What's America doing? Oh right, doubling down on car dependency and killing what little alternatives there were and calling people who speak out against it "woke."

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • load more comments (-1 replies)