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[–] 53 points 1 year ago (1 child)

25% is too high, but at least it's not as embarrassing as 99%

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  • [–] 178 points 1 year ago (36 children)

    So why does everyone keep referring to Bluesky as decentralized or even comparable to the fediverse

    Bluesky is the newest iteration of privately owned and controlled social media

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  • [–] 100 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (10 children)

    Because silicon valley thinks it can define reality however it wants and keep telling us not to believe our lying eyes.

    Weirdly this seems to work better on techy people who don't like thinking about politics but understand the technical details of this extremely well than it does on normie progressives because progressives just see the obvious predatory reality and don't get distracted in minutiae connected to very obviously empty promises.

    The tech press does not ever talk to progressives though...

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  • [–] 25 points 1 year ago* (7 children)

    Does it? None of my normie progressive friends are on the fediverse. The ones that tried it didn't like it.

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  • [+] 4 points 1 year ago (6 children)
  • [–] 13 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    No I’m saying the logic and propaganda of corporate social media seems to work on them, despite it being in obvious contrast to their ideals.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago* (1 child)

    I'm with you. To my knowledge all my irl woke friends ride only mainstream social media.

    I had a local anarchist reach out to me on my ancient FB Messenger of all things.

    I get that it's not the most important part if you're doing prefiguration, but as far as I can tell most people just want to be where most people are, even if it is supporting actually vile corporations.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

    Unfortunately not understanding or being sufficiently motivated by the threat of corporate social media is still prevalent among a good amount of lefties I know, but I find even when they are uninterested in leaving corporate social media they can at least understand the logic behind it in a way a lot of techy type people start to just get combatitive when you try to explain.

    Most often when I have a conversation about this with someone who is very technically well versed with computers and the types of systems that are relevant to federated social media their response is to answer every one of my broader ethical questions by changing the topic to a conversation about technical details and they either utterly miss the point or outright refuse to have a discussion about it because they think I am being too cynical.

    Ultimately these people only have one real argument which is to just repeat the mantra "stop being so negative, lets just wait and see before we jump to conclusions" endlessly about the same cycle of bullshit repeating over and over again.

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  • [–] -2 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    They didn't mean those kind of progressives. Not the political one. But the ones that actually see beyond VC backed big tech.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    this seems to work better on techy people who don't like thinking about politics but understand the technical details

    Not weird at all; this was the case with cryptocurrency too. Otherwise qualified and intelligent people would invest in centralized scam coins because they had no understanding of economics, just tech.

    It's sad but cool that it works the same way with social capital.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago*

    Intelligence and expertise is worth pursuing for the benefit that comes from learning for the sake of learning, but it is true that there is a danger to knowing more and more about a very narrow subject in that it becomes more and more seductive to believe that the thing you are an expert in is a key to understanding everything else and that this gives you a righteous vantage to look down upon the genius of others and judge from afar.

    Some of the smartest people there has ever been or likely will ever be throughout history have time and time again completely undermined their potential by falling prey to this delusional drug of a belief.

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  • [–] 41 points 1 year ago* (6 children)

    Because, despite being wildly impractical, it's technically built on tech that COULD be decentralized. Only recent a new host launched called Black sky. So it is no longer just one host. But it's been one host for so long it almost doesn't matter because so few people will switch.

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  • [–] 9 points 1 year ago

    Technically, yes, if you squint; but, practically, no. It was designed with a prioritization of passing the information/data around to avoid any lack of missing anything (so you get a closer experience to the connectedness of Twitter than Mastodon) which means every instance hosts, basically, the entire world. Naturally, there's only going to be a few entities that can store and afford to store the entirety of the data of the network. There's no such thing as a small instance, in their protocol.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    Doesn't BS have things in it's software that are hard coded to the main server, so it's not possible to make a completely independent host at the moment?

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    They continue to control 100% of the relays so they can control what servers are connected to the others.

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  • [–] [S] 47 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    So why does everyone keep referring to Bluesky as decentralized or even comparable to the fediverse

    They call it marketing, I call it propaganda.

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  • [–] 18 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    "It's the same picture."

    Always has been. The only difference is what they're selling.

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  • [–] 11 points 1 year ago

    I feel like this speaks to an unchallenged myth in our society. That corporate organizations and government organizations are somehow completely categorically different from one another such that they exist in totally separate spheres of reality. But they're both political groups of people, exercising power over the peasants. It's not as different as people think. And they often have similar goals and use similar strategies, like propaganda, to achieve them.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Because Bluesky claims that they want to develop their relay tech into a standard like HTTPS or something, and then hand it off to a nonprofit to maintain so that it's usable by everyone. The tech has the possibility to be decentralized/federated baked into it, but whether or not it will be anything other than a pipe dream/marketing hype has yet to really be seen.

    They present themselves as basically a Lemmy.world equivalent to those who care about decentralization, which is not a significant portion of their user base. For most people it's just a buzzword, I believe.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Wasn't there a similar promise made by Reddit at some point? I remember people referring it to often until it became just some myth ... and then at one point, people just realized it was never going to change and then it became a full blown private corporation that wanted an IPO and became a monolith that never even considered sharing anything.

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  • I honestly have no idea, that would be going much farther back in Reddit's history than I was on the platform for. It reminds me of Google's "Don't Be Evil" motto, though. It's true until somebody realizes that there's a lot of money to be made doing the thing that you said you wouldn't do.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago* (2 children)

    It's where the useful idiots are being herded. They are using it because it's "not twitter" and other people are influencing them. They don't care about decentralization.

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  • Would have been nice if they went to Mastodon, but I wouldn't call them idiots. I don't use that media format, but if there isn't a lot of users there, I cant see the service being that useful to the users who do go there. It's like Lemmy struggles with niches. Not enough people, want to find something or ask someone about something, you'll hit a wall and find yourself looking for results elsewhere. Someday hopefully, but that movement from Twitter would have been a great time for activity pub to shine if it hadn't gotten skipped over

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  • [+] 1 point 1 year ago (6 children)
  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    It's not:

    In July 2024, running a Relay on ATProto already required 1 terabyte of storage. But more alarmingly, just a four months later in November 2024, running a relay now requires approximately 5 terabytes of storage. That is a nearly 5x increase in just four months, and my guess is that by next month, we'll see that doubled to at least ten terabytes due to the massive switchover to Bluesky which has happened post-election. As Bluesky grows in popularity, so does the rate of growth of the expected resources to host a meaningfully participating node.

    https://dustycloud.org/blog/how-decentralized-is-bluesky/

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  • [+] 8 points 1 year ago (3 children)
  • [–] 29 points 1 year ago (22 children)

    There are a lot of cool features from at protocol that activity pub should steal. The way users can pick their algorithm is game changing

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  • [–] 20 points 1 year ago (15 children)

    The tradeoffs Bluesky made to achieve that means that Bluesky doesn’t have private posts. In fact, Bluesky doesn’t have private blocks.

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  • [–] 12 points 1 year ago (13 children)

    Private posts is planned, but it's not trivial. Mastodon can't exactly brag about their nonintuitive technically just not broadcasted posts, where multiple implementations keep making private messages publicly discoverable due to bugs.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (12 children)

    What kind of implementations do you mean? The last time I heard of such a thing (a few years ago), it was fixed within a few hours, and was on a dev instance

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (11 children)

    Currently Lemmy is leaking likes via the API even if they only should be available to the user's host and community host server

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (10 children)

    Federation requires openness and that goes badly with secrecy. You can argue that one has to trust instance owners anyway, but knowing the users and not just the tallies makes uncovering manipulation easier.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (9 children)

    It's doable with E2E encryption, but lots of social stuff in large groups requires coordination which is incredibly hard to with a server that has no knowledge of what the data is because it can't index anything, etc.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (8 children)

    It’s doable with E2E encryption,

    How?

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (7 children)
  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (6 children)

    Wait. What is the relation to vote federation?

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (5 children)

    They're implementing E2E encrypted social stuff. Voting privacy and encryption is linked.

    Especially when you have users across multiple servers and both want voting privacy AND being able to deal with vote manipulation. You need stuff like pseudonymous commitments per account attested to by the hosting instance, etc. The only thing that's simpler but still private is having instances just digitally sign a total vote tally, which also means you can't detect vote manipulation on other servers at all.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (4 children)

    But accounts are already pseudonymous?

    Here's where I am at:

    I can check if my votes are federated correctly by checking if any of my votes are suppressed or votes in my name are made up. If my instance sends a different random token with each vote, I can still do that, as long as I know which tokens are assigned to my votes.

    But vote tallies can also be manipulated by making up new votes through fake/bot accounts. If a vote can be connected to posts, this can be checked to some degree. Say, if an instance has a lot of voters that never post, that indicates a problem.

    I don't see how the second thing with E2EE.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (3 children)

    The very very short TLDR is that anonymization is very hard, but there's auditable cryptographic voting schemes which preserves anonymity by using anonymous cryptographic commitments and one of a bunch of different techniques to count encrypted votes (homomorphic encryption, threshold encryption, etc).

    You could set it up so you know which server each set of votes comes from but not which users on the server. You could also make it prove each vote comes from one real account and that no account voted twice. You could even make use of commitments plus ZKP to prove banned accounts can't vote!

    It sounds complicated because it is complicated. And somewhat inefficient. But it's possible. And it would be fully encrypted and anonymous voting.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (2 children)

    You could also make it prove each vote comes from one real account and that no account voted twice.

    How would it prove that the account is real? I suspect that the meaning of "real account" is not the opposite of bot or sockpuppet.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

    A discoverable non-banned account. Not from "ghost accounts". If a server creates a massive amount of accounts to use them to vote, you can see that a small server has a disproportionate amount of registered accounts too, which probably will be otherwise inactive. Then you can reject votes from that server.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    I assume it proves that there is a public key associated with each vote.

    It doesn't sound like cryptography is able to add anything worthwhile. You have to trust the instance to police itself. Self-hosted instances still don't vote anonymously.

    A group of users has to cooperate to hide their votes from others and each other. Only the tally is known, but you have to trust the group. On the Fediverse, such a group will be the users of an instance. The more users the instance has, the more anonymous the individual becomes.

    You have to trust the instance admins to weed out bots and sock puppets, which is extra hard when they don't see the votes either. Presumably, compensating by collecting and keeping other data, such as IPs, for longer is undesirable. You have to believe that admins, volunteers all, are willing to do the extra work and that they don't actually favor manipulation for ideological reasons.

    The only way to uncover untrustworthy instances is to look at aggregated data. I guess you'd have to get/scrape data for some community and then analyze by instance if the number of posters is out of whack with the number of voters. I wonder if anyone's ever done such a thing. It's certainly more challenging than looking at oddities among voters who brigade some topic.

    Admins of large instances could get away with having many sock voters among the real users, if they wanted to manipulate discussions for, say, ideological reasons.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    Wouldn't that work more with a client or a server software than the protocol itself? The protocol shares the posts. It's the client and the server which chooses what the user sees.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    It's doable on Mastodon but significantly more complicated.

    You need crawlers to index posts across the Fediverse (and avoid getting them blocked), personalized recommendation models per user, and you need pre-emptive caching on the user's instance for anything recommended (ideally the crawler would make a cache on behalf of each of the opted-in users' instances, but without content addressing this is a security risk). You also need to poll for edits / deletions.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

    Doesn't Mastodon already receive the posts?

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago

    On Mastodon, your instance doesn't receive posts until somebody on your instance interacts with the account posting it (following the poster, browsing directly to the post, etc).

    Feeds with recommendations requires fetching stuff in advance to not be slow and janky. Basically the feed service would need a bot account on your instance and retrieving all popular posts, given the current architecture. Having thousands of these bots across every instance do this would cause a significant performance hit on smaller Mastodon instances when one of their users posts something popular. So you need something different, like a server plugin where the bot fetches the content once and tells all participating Mastodon servers about their cached copy, so they don't all have to hit the hosting instance. But that's a security risk with the Mastodon design.

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  • [+] 39 points 1 year ago (9 children)
  • [–] [S] 32 points 1 year ago (8 children)
  • [+] 32 points 1 year ago (8 children)
  • [–] 44 points 1 year ago* (5 children)

    Yes. The relevant metric:

    99.55% of posts are on a single instance. That is not "federated" in any meaningful sense.

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  • [+] 14 points 1 year ago (4 children)
  • [–] 12 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Self-hosting a Bluesky PDS means running your own Personal Data Server that is capable of federating with the wider Bluesky social network.

    Seems like it

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  • [+] 8 points 1 year ago (2 children)
  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago

    Oh, I misunderstood. So you mean federating with their network from other software implementing the AT Protocol? From skimming the docs it looks like it should be possible as long as you implement the correct schemas, but I didn’t dive very deep.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago

    No it doesn't. If other people on bluesky servers want to see your content then obviously it will go through bluesky servers, but if you connect to a 3rd party relay and use a separate appview like zeppelin.social and use DID:Web for account ID then nothing involving the bluesky servers was used and it still behaves like native

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  • [–] [S] 16 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    PDSes only store user data. These are full instances that can be used to browse the network. The idea is to make your account really yours. Bluesky is hosting most of them. But there are some people who do it on their own.

    But bluesky controls much more important components in the network, namely the Relay and AppView.

    If Bluesky decides to cut off your PDS you are pretty much alone.

    Bluesky is pretty much a centralized platform like Twittler.

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  • [–] 18 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    Alternate history: Bluesky never happens. Instead, some company opens up a Mastodon instance as a Twitter replacement. So instead of Bluesky with 12M+ users, there's a Mastodon instance with 12M+ users. Now what?

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago* (4 children)

    How do you algorithmically manipulate those 12M people with Mastodon? BTW, Bluesky has almost 40M users.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    How do you algorithmically manipulate those 12M people with Mastodon?

    The usual way, whatever that is. What would Mastodon do about it? How do you manipulate Bluesky?

    BTW, Bluesky has almost 40M users.

    It's the number in OP, so I ran with that. The fediverse number apparently excludes Gab and Truth Social. Makes sense, since those aren't federated with the rest, but that also shows an issue.

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  • [–] 15 points 1 year ago (7 children)

    Anyone have the numbers for Lemmy specifically?

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  • [–] [S] 24 points 1 year ago (6 children)

    Lemmy has about 40,000 monthly active users. Lemmy.world accounts for about 15,500 of that. That's about 40%.

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  • [–] 11 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    Thanks. Yeah .world is definitely a bit too big, but it's still miles better than bluesky.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    On the one hand one instance having so many users is not ideal. If the mods/admins there go wild you can simply move, and organically the communities hosted there would appear elsewhere.

    So in real terms any action they hypothetically could take can realistically be countered.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    I think it gives them a little bit too much power in negotiating with other instances, especially with the number of communities hosted here. Choosing to stop interacting with them is a very drastic action because much of the threadiverse is here. Especially for me who has already cut out .ml which also has a disproportionate number of communities due to its age.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago*

    I've personally started creating my new communities on other instances to spread it out more. You create an alt on a fitting and reliable instance, create it there and then give control to your main account. My latest community is on mander.xyz.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago

    For sure entirely defederating would be hard right now. But you're could selectively block communities on your own instance. As I say if they did do something so heinous others would pick up the communities and it would be easier.

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  • [–] 11 points 1 year ago

    For those who enjoy in-depth write-ups, Christine Webber has looked at how decentralized BlueSky is really, before: https://social.coop/@cwebber/113527462572885698

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  • [–] 11 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Im trying to get more content on a few hobby communities on lemmy. I’m not really a big poster. I love to comment. But I’m willing to go through and start trying to build some momentum.

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  • It is my understanding Bluesky outright is not decentralized. It may have an API that allows satellite instances but if the main official instance goes down the platform dies.

    Mastodon, Lemmy and their siblings are decentralized in that no one instance is sacred. If sh.ijust.works were to go offline right now, the rest of Lemmy would keep right on trucking. Hell, all of "Lemmy" could die and Mastodon and Peertube et al would keep right on trucking.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago

    Capitalists love interoperability when they can use it to disrupt other capitalists. When they get in a dominant position they hate it.

    It's basic enshittification theory.

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