This is going over a lot better than when I said it, in progressivepolitics@lemmy.world no less. What a difference a month makes these days, I suppose.

https://sh.itjust.works/comment/19935457

Followed shortly after by:

The former Soviet Union established gun control in 1929 and as a result, Stalin’s government killed 40 million Soviets. This is a clear example of how gun control can be used to oppress a population and take away their right to self-defense.

https://www.dictatorbaron.com/did-joseph-stalin-ban-guns/

Sage advice... for the 1850s.

Prepare for the world you live in, not what you think it should be like.

That is an amazing way of wording a sentiment I've had for a long time

How exactly should we enforce the rule of no recreational nukes? It typically comes down to shooting the guy trying to get a nuke - so by who, then? I don't think it's reasonable to conclude the existence of nukes dooms us to a state forever.

I think it's worth bearing in mind that when Marx wrote that, guns were still using powder and percussion caps.

The Gatling Gun predates came out a 5 years before Das Kapital. Sure arms hadn't had the revolution they'd get during WW1 yet, but they were plenty capable.

Aussie Comedian Jim Jefferies in Boston dissing US gun obsession. He covers all the points in our thread.

Part 1

Part 2

EDIT: Not all points. The guy here making a good point about "defending" his immigrant wife isn't covered by the comedian. It isn't really defence, it is suicidal pre-emptive vengeance - still valid though.

The ICE raids were unimaginable at the time.

I think it's worth bearing in mind that when Marx wrote that, guns were still using powder and percussion caps.

More importantly than that, there were no machine guns, no tanks, no airplanes, no helicopters, no guided missiles, no rockets, no cluster bombs, no satellites, no drones, etc.

The quote is from Marx's address to the communist league in 1850, so approximately the time of the US civil war. This was a time where the most powerful weapon of war was the cannon. Most cannons at that time were smoothbore breech loaded weapons. They were slow to load and inaccurate. In WWII up to 75% of all casualties were the result of artillery, but in the civil war it was only 12% of all casualties.

Aside from cannons, everything else was weapons carried by individual soldiers. Grenades sort-of existed at the time, but were very unreliable, and very difficult to use. So, it all came down to individual soldiers and their muskets.

Also, consider that in the 1850s a professional standing army was rare. At the peak of the US civil war there were 700,000 soldiers on the Union side, but it started with only 18,000 soldiers. That means that in wars during Marx's time, most soldiers were conscripts or newly recruited and barely trained.

All that to say that in Marx's time, it might have been possible for civilians armed with personal weapons to take on a government and win an armed conflict. The "proletariat" army would more or less be on an even footing with the army of the state / bourgeoisie. They'd have more or less the same weapons and the same level of training. The only thing they wouldn't have would be the slow, inaccurate and unreliable cannons that were more scary than effective. But, presumably they could more than make up for that in sheer manpower.

Finally, even though it probably didn't matter to Marx, consider what having a gun at home would mean in the 1850s. If an intruder comes and breaks into your house, are you going to defend your property with your musket? Probably not. It takes minutes to load and once fired, minutes more to reload. Are you going to use your musket in a "road rage" incident while riding your cart to market? Probably not. Were there mass shootings by musket? Of course not. Were there homicides and suicides? I don't know, but I assume it happened occasionally, but it was a very different weapon back then.

Marx was concerned with the great forces of history, so he probably wasn't the type of person who was going to consider the negative consequences of firearms lying around the house. But, even if he had considered it, back in the 1850s having a musket at home probably wasn't a major danger to the household or to society at large.

So, let's say what Marx said was gospel. Even in that case, it was gospel for the 1850s. What would a modern-day Marx say about things today? Maybe a modern-day Marx would say that modern standing armies are so overwhelmingly powerful that it's pointless to pretend that they can be beaten by civilians with small arms and no training. Maybe he'd take lessons from Gandhi and MLK and suggest non-violent resistance. Or, maybe he'd be a prepper and suggest that civilians stash grenades, machine guns, rocket launchers, etc. But, IMO, his advice probably wouldn't be that civilians just have muskets (or their modern day equivalents) because he'd have to know that in the modern world a bunch of untrained dudes with AR-15s isn't going to win against the US military.

Circumstances change, that's the main fundamental issue. At the same time, we don't even check for problems during a lot of gun sales. I would say domestic abuse charges, history of suicidal behavior or terroristic threats, etc. There are at least lines we can draw without it being a free for all or a massive lockdown. Admittedly, it's mostly so we can feel we're at least trying something in the face of our children being killed that may actually make an impact in some of the examples.

Or burning them alive in houses cause they (the cops) throw flashbangs without thinking.

The analogy I go to for this concept is "the thorny vine." A single thorn is a minor inconvenience, but if one were to attempt to grab the vine and tear it down by force, then there's a lot of pain.

Human nature and society hasn't changed since then. Hell, it hasn't changed since wide spread written history. Go read ancient Greco-Roman graffiti. We are not fundamentally different than our ancestors, and it is the height of arrogance to pretend we are the enlightened peak so far above them.

The reasons for Marx's statements and the reasons the founders wrote the 2nd amendment have not changed, and technology has not changed sufficiently to invalidate that.

It's not as expensive of a hobby as drugs or cars.so there's that, I guess. 🤷🏼‍♂️

I think this episode plot of Bojack is one of the most bitingly effective takedowns of US culture I have seen, these words live rentfree in my head as a future epitaph to put on the gravestone of the US.

Turns out they hated women more than they loved guns.

Proceeds to ban all guns Turns out America hates women more than it loves guns.

Diane ❤️

No actually I think more women should carry them and learn the laws regarding defense in their locale. Know plenty myself that already do.

And women seem to agree with me, which is why they've been one of the fastest growing groups of new gun owners in the past few years.

They just gradually redefine American and the gun problem disappears, ez

"They're not taking my guns away, just those America hating immigrants gangs communists democrats domestic terrorists"