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[โ€“] 62 points 1 year ago (36 children)

I never understood leather car seats.

Can someone here explain to me the appeal of car seats that get extra cold in winter, extra hot in summer, and that will get all sticky against my sweaty leg if I sit down with shorts...

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  • [โ€“] 1 point 1 year ago

    Agreed. My mum's car and my boss's car have leather seats and I hate it. Both of my cars (and almost every other car I've ever driven in) have fabric seats, and they're infinitely more comfortable. And I presume considerably cheaper.

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  • [โ€“] 33 points 1 year ago (9 children)

    They last essentially forever if maintained even just a little bit and is a good quality leather. I've been in cars from the 70's with the original leather seats in amazing condition.

    I don't personally care that much what the material is in my car, but I've never had good experiences with fake leather, I'd rather honestly have any other fabric. And those other fabrics are very common already in cars!

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  • [โ€“] 11 points 1 year ago (8 children)

    The car won't last forever anyway, if it's used regularly.

    I threw away my last car at 19 years and 380'000km with no tears on the cloth seats.

    And yeah, fake leather is almost always a big no.

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  • [โ€“] 3 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    In my experience good cars can last a lot longer than the cloth

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  • [โ€“] 2 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    My car also has 480000km on it and 20 years old, seats still perfect. Maybe Seat just makes good seats :P

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  • [โ€“] 1 point 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

    Well, it's right there in the name!

    ...

    Mine was a 2001 Fiat Multipla, powered with natural gas. One of the most reviled cars ever made, and produced when Fiat was at its worst. It was awesome.

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  • [โ€“] 21 points 1 year ago

    One advantage is that they are usually much easier to clean, stains that soak into regular fabric can often just be wiped off from leather, however I do believe it's usually about leather having a more "premium feel".

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  • [โ€“] 4 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    Besides I like to believe that humanity has somehow evolved. In certain parts of the worldโ€ฆ at least. Why the need to skin animals for leather? Seems barbarism, pre historic and out of dateโ€ฆ

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  • [โ€“] 7 points 1 year ago

    As I wrote elsewhere, I believe there are still cases where leather really makes sense from a comfort/durability standpoint.

    I, like most people, still eat at least some meat, so it seems rude to not make good use of the rest.

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  • [โ€“] 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

    I mean, that is extremely easy to answer.

    1. It was an otherwise-wasted material that is already bonded, minimal tools needed for processing,

    2. In colder climates, fur was already attached to the leather which means that warm clothes could be crafted easily, fast, and by gathering all of the materials at one place. In early historic times, growing suitable plants and having the capacity to process them, strip them, straighten them, and weave them was not always possible and would be a full time job where it was, which means less time working in agricultural fields. Plus, animal fur has bigger growing seasons and is much warmer than any plant alternative.

    The real answer for the modern world is that leather is a byproduct of the very shitty industrial meat industry. The meat industry already has more leather than they can get rid of and it regularly goes into landfills. From an environmental standpoint, it is much better to use the leather than almost all other materials used for those tasks which burn oil and use oil to create them (every leather alternative is simply shitty petroleum-based non-recycled plastic, every one). From a moral perspective it is shitty to give more money to the meat industry, but they make the vast vast majority of their profits on the meat and not the hides. If everyone switched off of leather right now, the same amount of animals would be brutally murdered, but instead their hides would be dumped in landfills and the ocean after stripping it off of the meat.

    This isn't even getting into waterproofing. Almost all clothing waterproofing is petroleum or animal oil based (wax is either petroleum or harvested from bees) except for natural rubber which also has a bunch of negatives.

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  • [โ€“] 7 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    Leather feels much nicer than cloth. I prefer my seating surface smooth.

    I don't remember the last time I had a car without heated seats. I've had a car as old as 2003 (bought for 3k) that had ventilated seats. The are also ways to make sure your car is the right temperature by the time you get in it.

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  • [โ€“] 7 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    I'd like to know which country are you from. I live in Italy and I've never even seen a car with heated seating, it sounds like those fancy things for rich people in movies.

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  • [โ€“] 5 points 1 year ago

    Estonia. I've seen 1980s or 90s heaps of junk with heated seats. It's kind of a requirement when it gets to -33C in the winter. It's also very cheap for manufacturers to add, so a lot of them include it as standard equipment in northern countries.

    It was more common than AC here until AC became standard equipment in cars.

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  • [โ€“] 3 points 1 year ago

    USA here. It mostly depends on the regional climate, in my experience. If youโ€™re buying a new car in Texas, it probably wonโ€™t have heated seats in the options package. If youโ€™re buying one in Vermont, it would be a lot more likely to be available.

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  • [โ€“] 5 points 1 year ago (11 children)

    With leather seats, you get a sense of panic as you spill something, before realizing that it's leather.

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  • [โ€“] 11 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    You won't believe how many years I've had a driving license without spilling something on my seats...

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  • [โ€“] 5 points 1 year ago (3 children)
  • [โ€“] 4 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    You guys spill things in your car!?!?

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  • [โ€“] [S] 6 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    You guys drink something other than water in your car?

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  • [โ€“] 22 points 1 year ago* (4 children)

    I have a Renault 5, was one of the first owners of the new EV model! Itโ€™s a fantastic car, but interestingly, the whole interior material is.. denim! Seats, trim, everything. Even the inside of the roof! And itโ€™s made out of recycled blue jeans. How cool is that?

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  • [โ€“] 6 points 1 year ago

    Oh, good. My first instinct was that theyโ€™d use that plastic fake leather stuff. I really dislike fake leather. Itโ€™s not very durable and really difficult to mend when damaged. And itโ€™s so very sticky in summer. Denim sounds like an amazing option though.

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  • [โ€“] 9 points 1 year ago (21 children)

    I did not know cars still had animal leather in them

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  • [โ€“] 8 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Most cars can be bought with leather seats, that is a standard option on basically all cars.

    The steering wheel is another component that often is wrapped in leather.

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  • [โ€“] 6 points 1 year ago* (1 child)

    I mean I thought they were synthetic leather not real animal leather

    I just did a quick check

    โ€ Leather appointed seats are a combination of genuine and artificial leather and are not wholly leather.

    https://www.mitsubishi-motors.com.au/content/dam/mmal/pdfs/vehicle-brochures/25MY%20Outlander%20Brochure.pdf

    Yeah far out :|

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  • [โ€“] 1 point 1 year ago (13 children)

    Fabric is superior in comfort and cost.

    But if you absolutely want leather for looks/stain resistance, there historically hasn't been much of a choice. Plastic fake leather alternatives degrade pretty badly under UV light, causing cracking/flaking after just a few years. As anyone who has owned a fake leather chair or jacket would have noticed. But the expected lifetime of a car interior is measured in decades.

    The article mentions some startup innovating on new synthetic hemp-based fake leather, it'll be interesting to see if they can match the long-term durability of genuine leather. Otherwise it'll be a shame if those interiors fall apart in 5-10 years, reupholstering an entire car is not a small job.

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  • [โ€“] -1 points 1 year ago (12 children)

    Fabric isn't superior in comfort, it has way too much friction. Definitely the cheaper and greener option though.

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  • [โ€“] 1 point 1 year ago (9 children)

    I mean, it's a matter of opinion, but leather sucks in hot and in cold weather. It doesn't breathe so I get super sweaty, and it gets super cold in winter. So luxury cars compensate with heated seats and in-seat ventilation...

    I've never considered the friction of my car seat to even be a factor, I don't tend to move much once I'm sat down.

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  • [โ€“] 1 point 1 year ago (8 children)

    I can't even stand clothes that rub against my skin the wrong way, let alone car seats lol. Maybe some sort of sensory overload issue for me.

    Where I live, it gets so cold you can't drive away right after starting the engine anyway, you won't see through your windows. You start the engine and heated seats and heated rear window (and front if you have a Ford) and then start clearing the ice off your windows.

    In the summer, hot car is hot regardless of seats. Start the car and AC, have a cigarette or finish your chat, then get in the car.

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  • [โ€“] 2 points 1 year ago (7 children)

    In the summer, hot car is hot regardless of seats. Start the car and AC, have a cigarette or finish your chat, then get in the car.

    If you dont have ass melting leather, you can just roll the windows down and drive off instantly as the motion creates a breeze to push out the hot air. Even with AC, leather becomes sticky with sweat, there simply no win for it.

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  • [โ€“] 1 point 1 year ago (6 children)

    Never seen windows cool a car down enough in the summer. I also cool my car to about 15C in the summer. What sweat?

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  • [โ€“] 1 point 1 year ago* (5 children)

    The sweat produced between your body and the seat because leather is waterproof and doesnt breath.

    Also you dont need windows to cool it all the way down... just enough to remove the excess heat as the AC takes its time to get cool...

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  • [โ€“] 1 point 1 year ago (4 children)

    Or just don't get in the car before it's cold lol, wouldn't do that with cloth seats either plus I wouldn't want to sweat into those anyway, they absorb the sweat

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  • [โ€“] 2 points 1 year ago* (3 children)

    I dont have money to waste on a half gallon of gas for the seats to get cold enough. Besides, fabric doesnt feel very hot as it naturally has insulating properties.

    I have a feeling you live in a mild climate and dont have to deal with 35C with 100% humidity

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  • [โ€“] 1 point 1 year ago (2 children)

    35C/100% is literal death for humans. I would literally kill myself whereever you live.

    Also we have diesel cars here. Half a gallon gets you like 2-3 hours of idling lol

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  • [โ€“] 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

    They dont call the Southern US as Satans taint for no reason.

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  • [โ€“] 1 point 1 year ago*

    I'm in Europe, but latitude is about the same as Anchorage, Alaska.

    For winter it's not uncommon to have auxiliary heating that starts off a remote or app. Plus you wear clothes to make up for it

    Summer is like 4-5 minutes of idling and then itโ€™s not TOO bad to get inside. Unless you parked straight in the sun and your first drive of the day is in the afternoon.

    Best car I've ever owned was a rusty 2003 MB E-class. 4 zone climate went down to 12C, seats were heated and ventilated, and you could set it to run the interior fan for 30 min with ignition off. 1000 miles to a tank of diesel.

    Cost me a whopping 3k. They're available as diesels in the US too (2005 MY only) and last about a million miles, but US did not get the diesel in the wagon body style I had, which made it the ultimate do-anything car

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  • [โ€“] 0 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Wait until you find out the only alternative is copious amounts oil products

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  • [โ€“] 2 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    It's not, cotton seats are also a thing. And even the polycarbons are usually recycled anyway

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  • [โ€“] 25 points 1 year ago (18 children)

    Hmmm this feels like green washing to cut costs.

    Isn't leather mostly a byproduct? Leather boots and car seats can last decades, which could reduce waste.

    What are the alternatives and what are they made or? Afik the alternatives are usually petroleum based don't last as long and introduce micro plastics

    Would like to see a proper study on the alternatives and their long term impacts compared.

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  • [โ€“] [S] 25 points 1 year ago (6 children)

    Despite its reputation, leather is definitively not a byproduct. The modern leather industry does not reduce the waste of animal agriculture, it collaborates in it. Leather is best viewed as a coproduct, meaning that the two industries are distinct, but inextricably linked.

    The global leather goods market is gigantic, and Grand View Research predicts it will reach USD $405.28 billion by 2030, up from $242.85 billion in 2022. In 2020, global production reached 12.5 million tonnes and included the skin of over 1.4 billion animals. (Thatโ€™s nearly 20 percent of the entire human population at the time killed within a single year.)

    Apart from the staggering inherent environmental footprint of raising cattle, turning hides into leather itself has a significant impact. So significant, in fact, that Collective Fashion Justice believes turning hides into products creates more CO2e emissions โ€“ about 110kg per square meter โ€“ than simply putting them straight into landfill. (Which is very likely where the product will end up rotting and producing emissions eventually, anyway.)

    Itโ€™s also not just cows that are used to produce leather. Hides from sheeps*, lambs, goats, and pigs are also frequently used, while animals such as crocodiles, alligators, snakes, kangaroos, zebras, elephants, and more โ€“ including rare, endangered, and keystone species โ€“ are hunted specifically for their skins, frequently for luxury accessories by high-end brands.

    Fashion designer and vegan icon Stella McCartney, who uses plant-based alternatives to leather in her various products, previously told Plant Based News (PBN) that the idea of leather was a byproduct was โ€œsheer nonsense.โ€ She added: โ€œIโ€™m here to let people know thatโ€™s a lie thatโ€™s been created by the meat industry and leather boards.โ€

    https://plantbasednews.org/news/environment/the-problem-with-leather-cruel/

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  • [โ€“] 12 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Not dismissing the claims, but that seems like an obviously biased news source.

    Interesting topic, I'm keen to dive deeper into it.

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  • [โ€“] [S] 16 points 1 year ago

    This report covers a preliminary life cycle assessment (LCA) on imitation leather made from hemp fiber (hemp leather) and a comparison to bovine leather, to examine whether hemp leather is an environmentally sustainable alternative. The bovine leather industry is responsible for heavy chemical use and emissions, detrimental effects to the environment as well as to human health. The United Nations (UN) and other organizations call for immediate action against the animal product industry sector to greatly reduce emissions and protect the environment. Hemp is a versatile plant that can be used for many things, including paper, composites, textiles, food and medicine, and is probably a suitable material for imitation leather. The hemp plant requires little inputs, grows fast and without pesticides, has positive effects on the environment and can be cultivated on every inhabited continent. The preliminary LCA was based on a patent describing the manufacturing process of hemp leather completed with data from literature and a few assumptions made. LCA- results for bovine leather were collected from literature and the two leather fabrics were then compared. The comparison showed that hemp leather is superior to bovine leather in all compared categories except for water consumption and hazardous waste. Bovine leather had 99% more energy use, 78% higher acidification potential (AP), 99,9% higher eutrophication potential (EP) and 83% higher global warming potential (GWP) than hemp leather. The large water consumption in the manufacturing phase of hemp leather is possible to be explained by over dimensioning of inputs. The report concludes that hemp leather would be the environmentally and ethically admirable choice between the two leathers and that more research on more modern methods of manufacturing it should be performed.

    Source 1

    In recent years, there has been a growing interest in the leather industry towards sustainable and innovative alternatives to traditional leather production methods. Alongside this trend, efforts have been made to reduce environmental damage by focusing on natural tanning methods in the production of natural leather, thus adopting more sustainable production techniques. Alternative materials such as apple leather, pineapple leather, banana leather, cactus leather, bacterial cellulose leather and cork leather have emerged as viable options in response to this shift. Additionally, there has been notable development in exotic leather alternatives, with materials like crocodile, puffer fish, and ostrich leather taking the forefront. These exotic leather options not only offer alternatives but also aim to fulfill specific purposes such as habitat conservation, particularly evident in the case of puffer fish leather production. The aim is not only to provide alternative materials but also to ensure environmental sustainability and ethical practices throughout the production process. This article delves into the description of alternative leather options while also providing an analysis of the life cycle of leather. It aims to underscore the importance of discovering innovative and sustainable leather alternatives in reducing the environmental footprint of the leather industry. By considering various materials and utilizing tools such as Life Cycle Assessment (LCA), stakeholders can work towards a more sustainable and ethical future for leather production.

    Source 2

    The global leather industry has been at the receiving end of various environmental and ethical backlash as it mainly relies on animal agriculture which contributes to deforestation, greenhouse gas emissions, and animal welfare concerns. In addition, the processing of animal hides into leather generates a huge amount of toxic chemicals, which ultimately get released into the environment. Thus, growing concern for environmental sustainability has led to the exploration of alternative materials to conventional animal-based leather. In this regard, the application of fungal leather alternatives in material technology is gaining traction because of its high biodegradability, biocompatibility, renewability, as well as its affordable and carbon-neutral growth processes. Fungal leather alternatives have been found to possess significant mechanical and physical properties, thanks to the interwoven hyphal network of the fungal mycelium, as well as antimicrobial activities which have been ascribed to their bioactive metabolites. Various fungal species, including those from the Agaricus, Fomes, Ganoderma, Phellinus, and Pleutorus genera, are currently being investigated for their potential in this area. This review, therefore, attempts to gain insights into the recent advances in scientific research and real-world applications of fungal-derived leather like materials. It makes a compelling case for this sustainable alternative and discusses the morphology-property relationship of the fungal mycelium driving this innovation. Additionally, the current processing methods and major players in the fungal leather substitute industry are presented. The paper also brings attention to the challenges facing the full deployment of fungal leather substitutes and proposes solutions with the aim of encouraging further research and resource mobilization for the acceptance of this renewable leather substitute.

    Source 3

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  • [โ€“] 7 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    The global leather goods market is gigantic, and Grand View Research predicts it will reach USD $405.28 billion by 2030, up from $242.85 billion in 2022.

    I have generally rather mixed feelings about leather, but that seems like a ridiculous number to use as a reference. As far as I can tell it's the total price of the sold goods?

    Which includes lots of stuff that has nothing to do with the leather...

    Luis Vuitton is going to be raking in millions whether it uses leather or it switches to hemp or whatever. They're selling prestige and brand, not real products.

    (In the current political climate "going woke" by cutting leather would probably backfire in terms of image... But if they silently switched from leather to plastic noone would notice given the quality of their leathers)

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  • [โ€“] [S] 2 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    There's always cloth seats car manufacturers can use instead.

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  • [โ€“] 17 points 1 year ago* (8 children)

    The single largest producer of micro plastics is car tires. The second largest is lint from synthetic clothing. I agree that it's probably green washing but it's still probably better than using leather.

    Even if leather is a byproduct of meat production, it's not given away. It's sold. At best, leather is subsidizing the meat industry. Leather helps make animal suffering more profitable. Therefore it happens more.

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  • [โ€“] [S] 3 points 1 year ago (6 children)

    The single largest producer of micro plastics is car tires.

    This will become worse with evs unfortunately since they're heavier due to the batteries, they will become lighter over time though.

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  • [โ€“] 3 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    Driven an EV for 8 years. It's on its second set of tyres. My diesels cars before this one would get through a set every 18 months. I keep an eye on the tread depth too.

    I don't know why, but even with all the torque, they last. I wonder if the style of power transmission is easier on the tyre compound. Electric motors being a continuous force Vs an engine being lots of explosions, maybe.

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  • [โ€“] 1 point 1 year ago (3 children)

    I doubt it's torque delivery. Rubber compound and alignment make a big difference in tire life. Since EVs are much more limited by inefficiencies, I would bet it came with harder tires and a straighter alignment.

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  • [โ€“] 1 point 1 year ago (2 children)

    Since EVs are much more limited by inefficiencies...

    I don't follow?

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  • [โ€“] 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

    Much of the battery's energy is recovered through regenerative braking. This means the main thing limiting range is drag. That's why EVs typically have much more emphasis on being aerodynamic and are more efficient in cities. An ICE car has all of the energy dumped into heat in the brakes. But that's ok because it's easy to just make the tank bigger. That's why ICE cars are more efficient on the highway where they never brake.

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  • Unfortunately the meat industry isn't going anywhere anytime soon, so what do we do with the hides?

    It makes sense to me to use it to make Boots etc. that lasts decades, instead of throwing it in the trash and using petroleum based alternatives.

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  • [โ€“] 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

    Leather boots can, in my opinion, have their place. Leather shoes are often more hard-wearing, comfortable and maintainable, then many of the alternatives.

    That does not include leather sneakers because in those the construction and sole will self destruct way before the leather, so you have a shoe with good upper and a crumbling sole.

    But leather upholstery always seemed to me to be hard to justify. They seem to me to be functionally inferior and way more expensive.

    Car seats... Noone ever had to change car because the seats were worn. And leather is hot in summer, cold in winter, and sticky against sweaty skin.

    Office chair... Really? I have mine with a mesh back just to breathe a little better.

    And with a couch... Just why?

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  • I've had both leather and cloth car seats, the cars I've owned have all been ~10 years old, the leather seats looked really good after 10 years no issues. The cloth seats I had in one of my cars were literally falling apart.

    Leather is also spill proof, Kids smeared peanut butter all over your seats? No problem just wipe it down.

    This is just my personal experience, so yea mileage and results may differ.

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  • [โ€“] 5 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    Hopefully they are not replacing it with some form of plastic.

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  • [โ€“] 4 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    No no, itโ€™s going to be VEGAN leather (plastic) ๐Ÿ˜€

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  • Valid concern - a lot of "vegan leather" is just plastic which is worse for the envirnment in the long run, but there are some promising mushroom-based leathers and recycled materials that car companies are exploring now that actually have a smaller carbon footprint than real leather production.

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