all 11 comments

sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] 13 points 1 year ago (5 children)

The author points out systemic issues with Flathub, why it needs to improve, and then, through some crazy rationale, still recommends it because:

Although Fedora Workstation works well for most users, and although quality and reliability has improved considerably over the past decade, it is still far too easy for inexperienced users to break the operating system

Without stating "how" it is too easy for this to occur. Flathub is not a "fix", it's a host of other problems, many of which are in the article itself.

  • source
  • hideshow 5 child comments
  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    I personally don't think it's so much a strike against Fedora for being breakable but Linux in general. And to be perfectly honest it's better than it's ever been at not breaking.

    For the most part, OSX will not let you do anything breaking. If OSx is going to break on you, it's going to be because of an update or maybe a keychain and it's not going to preclude you from getting to a state where you can fix it.

    Windows can let you break stuff but also has relatively decent recovery facilities. If you are set up correctly you can roll back a checkpoint and recover from most stupid things. If you allow it it will even overwrite your boot menus and on ceremoniously dump you back in the windows if you f up your boot unless you do something relatively complicated.

    There was a time in Linux where we were already to go single user at the drop of a hat and undo a configuration change. It's one of the reasons why we've been sticklers for so long about not using graphical config, You're not going to get a graphical config from single user mode where you need to be to fix a serious problem. You used to be able to use the GUI to make a problem that took a console to fix.

    This is where the declarative nature of NixOS absolutely shines. You screw something up, you reboot, you choose The last working version, you're right back where you were. Of course it's still up to you to keep other versions of your text configs but you can get back into your GUI and your full interactive environment and fix whatever hell you hath wrought.

    I love the idea of flat packs/hub and honestly, I don't think storage/memory is as big of a problem as it used to be. Any one of 100 modern games is bigger than the entirety of the waste you'd see from an entire OS full of flat pack.

    The problem I have with flat pack isn't really flat packs problem. I try to install something flat in Nix, can't do it, need fuse, give it fuse, can't do it. Instructions are too just decompress it run it, That's the price of doing Nix, fine. Now I just need to restore my config oh it's not reading my config from there anymore, I'll just redo it in the app, fine, now I just need this plugin, well that's not in the right folder anymore either, can I just place it in my decompressed fuse FS? Nooooo.

    If the app was able to read plugins and config from ~/.config and my OS got along with it It would be relatively transparent.

    The cross section of applications that don't have config or plugins but have complicated enough linking that flat pack is advantageous is relatively small. If flat pack was just a zero sum thing, It would probably fly under the radar for most part.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 4 child comments
  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)

    Hey, as an old school linux guy, I am always curious:

    How the fuck do y'all seem to manage to fuck Linux up so bad that you seem to be so scared of bricking your systems?

    I mean, really. I see this complaint all the time. And in 25+ years of Linux, I can think of maybe once or twice where I meased something up with dd way back in the day when that was the only tool.for certain jobs.

    How are y'all managing to mess yourselves up?

    I don't have strong feelings one way or the other regarding Flatpak. I am just trying to understand why everyone seems so deathly afraid their linux systems will break when I have literally had way more windows systems just randomly do that to me over the years. How is your lived experience so radically different than mine?

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 3 child comments
  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    If you never broke it, my first guess would be you never actually tried to do anything non-vanilla with it. You never tried to get multi-screen resolutions in the 10's or factional scaling in the early 20's. or tried to update an ATI or Nvidia graphics driver back when it was a binary blob every other kernel with it was a bomb waiting to go off.

    And the whole "deathly afraid" is straight-up BS. Your tone is not appreciated. If you come back at me with more elitism, I'm just going to block you.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago*

    So it is people running beta software at the kernel level?

    Edit: I am not trying to be elitist - why would messing with X11 cause your system to be bricked? Come up in run level 3 and fix your issue in the terminal.... ?

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    Why limit it to open source software?

    Set a flag date by which any open source software not built from source must be delisted from Flathub.

    Why is it ok for proprietary software to not build from source, but for open source it's not ok?

  • source
  • hideshow 4 child comments
  • [–] 11 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Because it doesn't matter for proprietary software.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • 32 comments in c/linux@lemmy.ml view that post
    [–] 26 points 1 year ago (7 children)

    didn't read the article, but i never got the point of having a distro-specific flathub repo. isn't being distro-agnostic the main thing about flatpaks?

  • source
  • hideshow 7 child comments
  • [–] 11 points 1 year ago* (2 children)

    It's about making sure you know what is inside the flatpaks. If you make your own set of flatpaks, you can distribute them with the OS. It's not that fedora flatpaks aren't distro-agnostic, you can use them on any distro. They just want a set where they can verify the build process and trust.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • [+] 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (4 children)
  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    sounds weird to me. aren't we replicating the repository problem if each distro decides to make a flatpak repo according to their own philosophies?

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 3 child comments
  • [+] 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)
  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

    i don't have an issue with multiple flatpak repos. i'd actually find it very interesting if we went a more decentralized route with flatpak (maybe kde, gnome, mozzila would each have their own repos). but i don't see the point of a distro-specific flatpak when we already have normal packages. compatibility is kind of a non-issue, since you're not supposed to install them elsewhere anyway (unlike flatpaks)

    also, i see absolutely no reason to use fedora's flatpak repo on debian given that flathub exists already. you could add it if you want it, but what's the point?

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • load more comments (-1 replies)
  • load more comments (-1 replies)
  • load more comments (-1 replies)
    [–] 14 points 1 year ago

    That "article" is painful to try and read, it's like a run on thought that bounces all over the place. The author really should make a clear outline and could probably cut out half by not saying the same thing over and over and over again. I stopped after the third time I read about Fedora flatpaks are different from flathub flatpaks, and users like flathub more, but the author is apparently eventually going to explain why that's an issue after 2K words of nonsense.

  • source
  • [–] 12 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    It's great they're having this discussion, but some of the arguments seem overblown and imply Flathub does less reviewing of app than actually does.

    Outdated runtimes aren't great either, but as they learned with OBS, just updating to the newest version broke a bunch of stuff.

    See this blog post for a response that was made to similar criticisms during the OBS issue. Flathub Safety: A Layered Approach from Source to User

  • source
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago

    We can flag old runtimes as out of date. Individual users or whole distros can set preferences to anvoid out of date runtimes. But Flathab must support out of date runtimes.

    If an app has not been updated, I want it to continue running.

    I want FlatHub to support binary only apps (like commercial ones) as well.

    FlatHub is supposed to be the easy, one-stop place to publish apps. If I cannot put my app there, it is a problem.

    It is supposed to be the place I get apps that will run on my distro. If the app I use daily that has not been updated in 10 years stops working, I am annoyed.

    Fedora wants to deprecate runtimes that would still be “stable” on Debian.

  • source
  • parent
  • load more comments (-1 replies)
    [–] 14 points 1 year ago (17 children)

    Uhm, isn't bazzite practically what the author is asking for?

  • source
  • hideshow 17 child comments
  • [–] 12 points 1 year ago (12 children)

    That's certainly part of the motivation (see the 4th paragraph).

    Yes, image based. No, not Bazzite specifically, but silverblue (and kinoite) under the fedora banner directly.

    But that's not really the point of the article. In order for those to go mainstream, flatpak and especially flathub have a lot of maturing to do first, and the author lays out a pretty good roadmap with thorough explanations.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 12 child comments
  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago* (10 children)

    They're already mainstream, any belief otherwise is ridiculous to the point of being parody.

    Meanwhile you have Fedora getting legal threats because they're shipping broken software in their own flatpak repo that exists only to waste developer time and project resources at the expense of its users and their experience.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 10 child comments
  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (8 children)

    I'd love to think so too, but I think our echo chamber is pretty tight.

    I certainly think they're ready for mainstream usage (I have one Bazzite install myself), but I don't think there's significant awareness beyond the dedicated fan base.

    There aren't really any actually useful metrics that I know of, but the only one of the 3 I've mentioned that broke into distrowatch's top 100 is Bazzite, and that's only in the last few months.

    And for legal threats: I doubt any court in any country will give credence to that. Fedora is MIT licensed.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 8 child comments
  • [–] -2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (7 children)

    The legal threats were credible and resulted in yet more wasted developer time removing that package instead of the entire useless repo.

    You're forgetting that millions of Steam Deck consoles have been sold and all of them are flathub exclusive.

    On top of that you have: Mint, Vanilla OS, Endless OS, OpenMandriva, PopOS!, Clear Linux, PureOS, ZorinOS, KDE Neon, GNOME OS, Salix, and many others all shipping flathub by default.

    Fedora is in a very exclusive group of distros dumb enough to ship their own flatpak repo.

    Bringing up Distrowatch stats and "Echo chamber" in the same comment is the most absurd thing I've seen this year.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 7 child comments
  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (6 children)

    I think he was referring to immutable distros not being mainstream, not flatpaks.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 6 child comments
  • [–] -2 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    That's irrelevant to this conversation

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 5 child comments
  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    What? He said "in order to go mainstream", referring to immutable distros like bazzite.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 4 child comments
  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)

    Bazzite is not immutable, and SteamOS is as mainstream as it gets while being A/B root immutable.

    All of them ship Flathub because it's ready for public consumption.

    If the attempt here is to argue that cloud native isn't mainstream and change topics from flathub, you are proudly in a bubble of 3% of the computing industry while your peers in the Linux server space and Android run circles around you.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 3 child comments
  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Pretty sure bazzite is immutable, it is based on silverblue after all. But that's besides the point, i just wanted to point out that you probably misunderstood what he was saying. Immutable distros being mainstream kinda depends on how you look at it i suppose. Purely in terms of amount of users, with steamos and bazzite being so popular, i guess you could consider it mainstream, but how many people actually choose a distro because it is immutable? Steamos just happens to ship with the steam deck, bazzite is popular because it mimicks steamos for other devices, and if you look at something else like NixOS, it's more about the system being declarative rather than immutable. It's probably safe to say that flatpak is the most popular third party package manager though, i do agree with that.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    You are arguing with Bazzite's primary maintainer. "Immutable" is a bit of a misnomer, especially since multiple directories like /etc are read/write.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago

    Ah i see, i had no idea lol. In that case i stand corrected since he probably knows better than i do. I think the term immutable is causing a lot of confusion, because i also see a lot of other sources online label bazzite as immutable. And then ofcourse there are other projects that use the term composable, or atomic. I guess i fell victim to that confusion as well now.

  • source
  • parent
  • [+] 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 child)
  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago*

    If they behave anything like what Fedora did, yes.

    OBS chose Flathub as their official default supported option for their software. Fedora took that software, modified it to update dependencies they weren't ready to use yet, and then put it on their store in a completely broken state with all of OBS's trademarks intact and in a way that made it preferred over the official one, and then fought OBS over removing it for months while it racked up support requests from unsuspecting users (victims of Fedora's shitty policies).

  • source
  • parent
  • load more comments (-1 replies)
  • [+] 11 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)
  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Bazzite ships Flathub unfiltered.

    Last update (which replaced Discover with Bazaar) changed that.

    so no taking a precompiled binary and shipping that.

    All FLOSS apps on Flathub are built on trusted platforms by default, in the open and verifiable. Same thing with Brew.

    Not including proprietary software in the default config is a valid choice every distro has to make.

    The sudden success of Bazzite comes from how easy it is to use.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • load more comments (-1 replies)
    [–] 3 points 1 year ago (1 child)