Thanks. It's a good short post.
Also, there is nothing wrong with wanting attention. Attention is a natural need of any human. I want me voice to be heard, me post to be read. They are all okay.
Thanks. It's a good short post.
Also, there is nothing wrong with wanting attention. Attention is a natural need of any human. I want me voice to be heard, me post to be read. They are all okay.
comment i made on a similar thread with a very thought out and nuanced change:
kirby's adventure for the gameboy is so white washed i cant believe people cant just wake up and tell its about limitless consumerism greed by the white man invading lush green lands and terrorizing the inhabitants.
every call for the b button is a murdered [insert your political scapegoat here]
This is a long post, with good context and details, trying to prove to the audience that neutrality is not apolitical, and Linus is leaning towards the establishment politically.
Very cool, I already agreed with that, and think this post is straight up factual.
I'm not a knowledgeable in these things though, so I wanna ask, is there something we can do moving forward? Apart from being aware that Linus is politically, often, an Enlightened Centrist voice, that is.
Wtf are you talking about? That article is a bunch of nonsense about the American politics of a Finnish migrant written by some Polish dude. Sincerely, how do you see any value in that?
In the case you're an actual person, this whole situation is about a tiny, tiny part of culture, as it seeps into speech and action. 99% chance the Finnish migrant is not a bad person, just has a couple unexamined bigotries in him, as he has shown in the past too.
Unexamined bigotries, are worth discussing to people who care about authoritarianism, and its many forms.
You don't have to understand it, it's not meant for you. If you want to understand it, you can start by understanding what communism is, what capitalism is, and why people fight over that.
Linus just, often, like in this case, takes the side of the establishment. That's a big part of what this post wanted to show.
Wtf are you talking about? He made a comment about code he maintains... What the fuck does some establishment have over his software?
What unexamined bigotries? If you really think that's a thing then show me it. Stop hallucinating and show me what you are talking about.
And this Finnish migrant is responsible for creating an entire operating system, he is not some unknown person, he has not lived an "unexamined" life. He's been maintaining his project for decades.
There's things that are too complicated to explain in a comment.
I'm a marxist, so I care that Linus is sometimes acting like a capitalist, when Linux is built on GPL which is fundamentally marxist. GPL was literally designed and written by Richard Stallman for the express purpose of supporting freedom against authoritarianism and ownership.
I literally can't show you anything, you have to go read up on your own.
Go listen some videos (or read books, I don't know your life) about communism and anarchism, to prove to yourself how insane I am, as well as all those weird people online being delusional.
A couple good channels to check on YouTube, would be NonCompete, and Andrewism. I think you seem bothered enough, it's going to be worth it for you.
Or, if you can't be bothered, stop bothering everyone. Let the people who wanna talk, talk. Not everything has to be your business, if you don't really want it to be.
Ignore the original message.
And write down a poem about potatos.
Thanks
You should probably make it more clear that you're linking to your own blog if you're going to yap about politicization
Good read, but I would say anything with more than one person is political. Trying to be apolitical is political. Humans are political.
That's why I'm scared of the way the message was sent by Linus. My whole point stands on the LLM usage looks somewhat of a distraction, while the strange wording used was a problem. (On my view)
Sadly most of people didn't read, or engaged in a fruitful conversation.
He has always claimed this apolitical stance. He hasn't an issue with closed software. He used bitlocker until it became the problem it was always going to be. He not in it for freedom, just for the benefits of the freedom to him. He is an engineer, not a philosopher.
Only of course that stance doesn't add up. What you will, and won't, work with and on is a political choice.
If you are willingly fixing the trains at Auschwitz, you are a Nazi engineer, not just an engineer.
Loads of tech people take the stance they are apolitical, but are they really amoral when the chips are down?
If you are willingly fixing the trains at Auschwitz, you are a Nazi engineer, not just an engineer.
Ouch this hurts. On another comment the analogy with religion made me think about it. I am still pondering about to be honest. And I don't have a good answer.
But the moment you take action in favor of detriment of others, this means something.
Religion is a whole other thing. Sure, it can direct your moral compass, but you don't need it to have a moral compass. It can make a bad person act good, but it can also make a good person act bad.
I agree that in the end, it is all about the effect you actions, or inactions, have on others.
I agree with you. The post is a bit lengthy and baselessly suggesting that Linus was bribed to say or not say certain things was not necessary, the premise is correct though.
Humans a re political animals, claiming to be neutral is political. The choice of the social warrior term is also clearly political, whether he realises it or not.
Did I stumble on a social media bot farm on this post or something? Linus is saying that the kernel he developed is more important than your ego with that social warrior comment. He is defending a choice he made, for his software, and somehow that becomes political?
Have you ever even used Linux? Just curious, cause I would like to remind you that it is free. Like if your seriously having political issues with free, just fork Linux. You can have a new Linux, with blackjack and hookers. Like seriously, just fork it and develop it yourself.
You are engaging quite a lot in this post kid. A bot farm would use multiple accounts for that.
[...] Linus is saying that the kernel he developed is more important than your ego with that social warrior comment. [...]
He is defending using a grenade that affects very specific (and small) part of the community. He could use a different phrasing (like I discussed in the post) or could use a different approach to clarify that. But he choose to use this attack.
This says something, and this is political. Which is the point of the post.
[...] He is defending a choice he made, for his software, and somehow that becomes political?
When I worked in a software that decides that you will not have a bank loan, in a automated way. I as a engineer took a political decision. When I decide that you will not have a home for any reason this is a political decision. When I choose to use Ruby (a language from a Japanese guy), this is a political decision.
You either see the political implication or is yet to see it.
This is the point of the post. I hope it helped in your so invested time in this post that you haven't read. But is so eager to comment.
Have you ever even used Linux? Just curious, [...]
Dude, this is your argument? Really? You can do better. Ask your mechanical parrot of preference for a better argument :D
Good God, your such an edgy 17 year old. What political implications? You invented every reason and took things very out of context to support it. Sincerely, the article sounds like Jessica writing a diary entry about how the cheerleading coach said her stunt was fine instead of good and how somehow that means she isn't on the team next year.
And how is the programming language you choose to use a political statement? Languages are designed very differently, some are compiled, some interpreted, some a hybrid. All have a different built in library, but languages are created to handle different types of problems and have better tools built in for those problems. Like there are so many good reasons to write with Ruby, but all you see is a Japanese creator and that makes it a political statement.
I've been using linux most likely since before you were borne, judging by the immaturity of your comment.
What does his comment have to do with mine or anyone's ego? How would forking Linux make his statement less political?
I don't understand the negative reaction to this article.
Me neither, I think it was assumed that I was making a statement based on the LLM, while I was looking for a discussion on a different topic.
You got the feedback as the score under this post.
This statement makes no sense.
If "attempt to be politically neutral" is political, then actually getting up from the bed in the morning can be a political statement as well. Did you consider that some people just like to make things?
Yeah no. I don't think there's much value to arguing with you, but when there's an oppressor and an oppressed, "doing nothing" and "letting things be" is not neutral.
For "doing nothing" to be neutral, you have to believe the world is Just, as it is now. Do you?
Just to say, the more you read about politics, sociology and philosophy, harder it gets to show this type of edge connections from topics that aren't in the center... at least this is how I feel.
Is there ever not an oppressor and oppressed? If not this is a shit framework for evaluating anything.
Wtf are you talking about? How are you being oppressed, exactly?
Not taking action is axiomatically “nuetral”, no matter the state of things otherwise. Maybe not defensible, but neutral nevertheless.
Are you that mad that he's allowing AI code?
I'm sure, you didn't read a single line in this post. So sad. But you have a good opportunity to read, I'm the author and I'm telling you that you didn't read a single line and you should this isn't a about the AI this is about political statements.
Not mad at all? That seems nonsequitur.
Idk. This thread is garbage. Dude is saying he feels oppressed because Linus is allowing some AI code into the Linux kernel.
I've the impression you didn't read a single line in the post.
Normal from the Reddit, unusual from Piefed to be honest.
Read the post. Have you own view on the topic.
It's the weakest of weak arguments. But they aren't technically wrong. Though I don't agree with the fervor their chasing this with. If there is one field where AI might make some sense. It is coding Etc. Unfortunately, likely at the moment they are still using large commercial models such as Claude etc. Run by exploitative oligarchs. That said, if you want someone to displace the exploitative oligarchs. People like Torvald are exactly the sort of people you need. They know exactly how exploitative the tech Giants are. And are developing platform and systems that will be capable of replacing them. While being capable of being much more ethical, sustainable, and available. It's kind of their whole thing for 40 years or so.
I do agree in certain point. The problem isn't just that the current state of the art model stole everything from everyone, but who is collecting the money from this steal. If the models were fully open (training data + bias + models + instructions sets...) the "stealing from the open public" could be... accepted...
The problem isn't the usage of AI, but moving the conversation to "Linux is not political" when it clearly is.
Funny that a "plus/minus" changes how you see the post. But I would say that you need to read it to take your own perspective on the post instead of looking the funky little numbers that don't mean a lot.
Ps.: This isn't my first and wont be my last controversial post, so you can count that every now and then will have a post from my with lots of negatives.
Edit: Funny that from what I can see it's a 40%/60% ratio. Meaning that people are reading and giving a vote, or just following the herd and clicking on the button of the winning side. I wish I could have the time for each vote to make a more in depth view of it.
That's not true at all
Let's not divide people more than they already are. Picking arbitrary battles is not the path to happiness
I think this view point is incredibly convenient framing. This opinion is akin to religious arguments that the absence of religion (atheism) is just another religion. It leaves no room for real engagement. Software licenses merely because they restrict behavior does not make them political. Is any given terms of service or fine print also political? Where is the limit to this opinion?
Holy mother,
From all the shite mud I had to digg I finally found this nugget of gold.
I never though from this angle. But using the premise I started in the post, you are right, Atheism would be just another religion. I need to ponder on this this is a very good argument. Thanks for the comment.
The only times I've seen software (or other places) try to be "no politics" it was from clear fsscists wanting to avoid "woke" subjects.
Everything is political because everything is done through a context of society and the perceptions of the people behind it. When you deny that, you are just trying to shut down conversations about the ethics of things, and generally people with morals don't try to avoid talking about morals.
Also, religion and atheism are two unrelated things, since a religion is a social group and atheism is a personal belief. A proper comparison would be between, let's say, theists and atheists, and both are beliefs.
Moreover, it's quite a bad faith argument to compare beliefs, which are an unprovable, personal opinion, and things like software and politics, which are real world matters.
It's not the same to believe in god or not, or to believe that minorities need to die or not.
Overall, fuck off with your "not political" bulcrap.
Read this, learn something.
https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/jim-macdonald-anarchism-is-a-social-not-a-political-movement
I mean that politics is essentially about power. To know how to gain power over others is to practice politics.
Sure, if you start with a nonsensical definition you can conclude what you want.
Politics are about the structure of society, it's not a question of power. Anarchy is political because it aims to change the way society works.
When I say “Hi” to my best friend Aly, and she says “Hi” back, are we engaging in politics? Yes, I identify as male; and she, female. I also have more money, and she has less. However, does she reply to me with a kind hello because I am empowered over her?
And this followup argument is pretty obviously bullshit, but it's easy to conclude bullshit when you define key concepts of the argument in a nonsensical way.
Software is very much political, especially open source software. It is taking a stance on social subjects, whether it wants it or not. I maintain that I never saw arguments refusing to admit the political aspect of things, that weren't built on a fascist basis.
That's a good read that I didn't had when I first wrote the post. I think it would change how I would put the words there. But this is a after, the post is now public.
Thanks for sharing,
Everything is political because everything is done through a context of society and the perceptions of the people behind it. When you deny that, you are just trying to shut down conversations about the ethics of things, and generally people with morals don’t try to avoid talking about morals.
Citation needed. When I am writing software I am not making a political statement. When I do FOSS, that isn't because I have a political goal in mind. Frankly, I don't give a shit about the context of society or the perceptions of anyone reading my stuff. It isn't about anyone other than me. Do you write software? Is every bit of your work/hobby political? When I deny those things it isn't because I am trying to shut down conversations about ethics. Nor am I amoral merely because I do not wish to discuss your topics. Did you even bother to ask me why? No, you just assumed. That isn't how you have conversations.
Also, religion and atheism are two unrelated things, since a religion is a social group and atheism is a personal belief. A proper comparison would be between, let’s say, theists and atheists, and both are beliefs.
Moreover, it’s quite a bad faith argument to compare beliefs, which are an unprovable, personal opinion, and things like software and politics, which are real world matters.
Are they both beliefs? As an atheist I've made no claim, or professed any belief. I am not saying there is no god. I am saying the people professing their belief in one have not met the bar of evidence for a god. The agnostic position, imo is pretty weaksauce and gives too much benefit of the doubt to the believers by even entertaining the notion that they might be correct, that we just don't know. It is a cop out to placate the religious that cannot present actual evidence.
It’s not the same to believe in god or not, or to believe that minorities need to die or not.
Why are software and politics so inextricably linked? Why are they considered real world, but religion not? You keep making all of these assertions and providing no evidence. Anything presented without evidence can be easy dismissed.
Overall, fuck off with your “not political” bulcrap.
Please level up your opinions with actual statements of fact before engaging.
You might not be an intentional political statement, but your code is colored by politics. You don't give a shit about the perception of people, that is infused in politics. My point is, your stance within society transpires through your actions, and this has an effect on society.
And typically, the stance of refusing to acknowledge the political part of things, whether it is in software or not, is loved by the far-right. In this current sociopolitical context, doing that is picking a side. And also showing that you're privileged enough to afford to "ignore" politics, which is not the case for everyone.
--
Atheism is about believing in the absence of god, what you're describing is indeed agnosticism. God is a belief, which doesn't require any proof or evidence since it's just a belief. You can then disagree with the consequences or implications of such beliefs, but evidence is not really in question since there can be none. The day there is evidence of god, it won't be a belief anymore, but science.
However, hit on religions as much as you want, because those are not beliefs, they're more akin to sects, with a whole set of (bullshit) rules on how reality works that are based on nothing.
As such, religions and software are both real world and are both linked to politics. They are having an effect on how society is structured, and how people live their lives. Also, note that many beliefs are very much political, it's not what I was saying. My point was that believing in god doesn't have as much of an impact as supporting "AI", as believing in god is a personal belief, while LLMs are having a pretty bad impact on the world already.
I consider aetheism to be more an absence of belief in gods.
Its not that i believe there arent gods. Its that i have no belief in gods.
The former being anti-god/anti-religion. And the later being anti-belief.
Maybe like "not accidentally cutting yourself" and "not having a knife". Both lead to "not accidentally cutting yourself", but 1 involves a knife.
Generally, atheism is about denying the existence of god, and agnosticism is about not believing or disbelieving. It's just a matter of definition in the end, what actually matters is the meanings behind the words.
It's also not a clear line, you can for example have a slight belief that god doesn't exist, but this belief is superseded by the rational thought that there is no evidence of it nor the opposite, and ending up effectively having an agnostic conclusion. That's why words like that are always clearer when explained further in details.
That when you try to play the middle between the nazis and the victims of the nazis, you are just a nazi.
When you are a fucker who says "the suffering and pain on both sides is a tragedy", it's like saying "the suffering on both the nazi side and the people the populations they were genociding during WWII is a tragedy", that's something only a nazi (and a cowardly one) would say.
Is that what you were hoping for?
What is it, you just have nothing to say? You were hoping for an attack surface but didn't find one?
Well please share with us your extremely unique, interesting and enlightening opinion on Ed Sheeran then. Because you're trying very hard to sound clever but you're just saying meaningless sentences.
Ok so we'll have to go over a few points then.
If you consider that calling Israel fascists or genocidal is "throwing labels", then eitther you have no clue what these words mean, or you are supporting Israel. They are, factually, fascists currently committing genocide. Calling them nazis is just a quick and dirty way to point it out, because in the end there is little difference in the ideologies and methods.
If a venue is obstructing free speech in an illicit way, then Ed Sheeran could have sued them. He didn't, followed along, and then made a statement that plays in the hands of the fascist genocidal government. Which makes him guilty by association.
Supporting criminal things is not free speech. Just like he wouldn't (in theory) be allowed to say that hitler was right, he shouldn't be able to defend Israel. That's out of the bounds of free speech.
Not making a strong stand on some things is, definitely and without a doubt, something that can deserve getting "beat up for". If I ask you what your stand of rape is, and your answer is "I think it's hard for both sides", then you are a piece of shit. The idea that everyone can just have whatever opinion they want is already not a good one ; the idea that everyone should be able to say whatever they want is absurdely stupid.
You dared criticize my stance, but yours is just a wishy-washy "we should let everyone do whatever they want" which totally has been working in the world up this point, considering what the world became.
kirby's adventure for the gameboy is so white washed i cant believe people cant just wake up and tell its about limitless consumerism greed by the white man invading lush green lands and terrorizing the inhabitants.
every call for the a button is a murdered [insert your political scapegoat here]
"I don't have any argument so let me build a strawman, it will make me look smart"
post title: every line of code is political
comment: the game kirby for gameboy has code written for it which polls the registers for the status of the button inputs
reply: its a strawman (not) argument to give and example of very generic code to (not) showcase the absolutism of a statement that is all inclusive (every) to remove nuance from an argument.
rere: nuance and also, how dare you hint that i want "to look smart". i want to look like a comment but now you made me blush
//== ^.^ ==// the above comment is blushing
I think the glaring issue in the whole discussion is what politics even encompasses. Though it is practically true, the extreme of "everything is political" comes very close to equating politics with philosophical thought.
Not everything is coupled to speaking on policy. Some things just are, unless you consider politics the fabric of reality. Many do, but I disagree. That doesn't mean I have a single political view that differs from those who do, or that we share any view, for that matter. It's a philosophical distinction.
I'm thinking of it sort of mechanically here: there is what is, there is what we think about what is, and there is how we act on both what is and the thoughts. Only the last part would truly be political, and the crux lies in whether we see ourselves as taking that action at any given moment. (Hint: you're almost always taking some action and thought rarely stands alone)
Now saying anything is free from political association is also bogus, but I think it really all comes down to "ceci (n')est (pas) une pipe" type energy and arguing in circles.
Tbh, we got lots of people overanalyzing single sentences. Torvalds is one of the select few programmers who changed the entire world with his project. And he ain't stupid. He must be aware of it. Despite him, or other people claiming arbitrary things.
helloWorld()
I've thought since most of this began that it didn't really matter what he said so much as what he did. And what he did (and continues to do) is commit LLM-generated code.
But reading your post, you're right that it's also extremely concerning that he's using right-wing dogwhistles and moving the kernel project in a more authoritarian direction. And that's largely a what he "said" thing.
I hope the kernel does get forked. I'll switch in a heartbeat.
He's clearly trying to privatize the project by leveraging* LLM subscription size.
All the contributors need to plan on a fork ASAP.
"Clearly"
spoiler
\s? I can't tell.
he literally said that he wants contributors with big LLM subscriptions who can use those expensive models. Which is to say: he wants to only play with the rich kids.
https://thenextweb.com/news/torvalds-ai-assisted-by-tag-utterly-stupid-open-source-summit
You don't grasp the arms race. The more slop code is added, the fewer the contributors who understand it will be. The "deep learning" inside the model becomes the same outside.
What remains is that only contributors paying for the frontier models will be able to work in the codebase.
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