Amanda Caswell
Amanda Caswell is an AI journalist, certified prompt engineer, and technology commentator whose work and expertise have been featured on Fox News and CBS News.
Amanda Caswell
Amanda Caswell is an AI journalist, certified prompt engineer, and technology commentator whose work and expertise have been featured on Fox News and CBS News.
Torvalds had spent 18 months running a broken version of his own fix for the page-cache reference-counting bottleneck, while other developers had encountered problems with their approaches. The new patches eliminate folio reference-count operations from a common buffered-read path, although Torvalds warned that the benchmark gains would be considerably smaller in real-world workloads.
You know how in star trek or other shows with scripts, how the writers used to just put like or something
Yeah so then I swapped the flux combobulator with the drago-fleefloo-spectromodulator and we're up to warp speed again. Thank you, Captain!
They need to add an analogy in there...
"The problem is with the folio reference-count operations from a common buffered-read path"
"Of course! It's just like putting too much air in a balloon!"
- "I only care about the final results and the correctness"
- Final results are shit and code is just slop
Ahhh, I love AI /s
On Tuesday, he submitted a 10-patch series that delivered a 23-fold throughput improvement in a synthetic benchmark
Impressive, probably kind of like I can answer math questions very very fast.
Reviewers have since identified a race condition and raised concerns about memory reclamation.
That what I thought, I can answer math questions fast, but I don't claim to be able to answer them correctly.
It seems that after the initial AI-generated patches there's been good discussion amongst the kernel devs about sorting out the issues, and a few revisions already that have tidied things up a bit.
So if after all that there ends up being a good performance improvement directly from a revised AI-created patch, what do I do with my pitchfork? Still raised angrily? Half-mast? Do I just let the torch smoulder?
Wonder how much time it had taken without AI
Torvalds had spent 18 months running a broken version of his own fix for the page-cache reference-counting bottleneck, while other developers had encountered problems with their approaches.
The article mentions he had been working on solving the issue for 18 months already... so at least that long.
You have to vow to use a new fork (which someone else should totally create) which does not contain this one specific patch.
I'm still mad because the source is still tainted. You can guarantee that the contributions of unwilling people, { who 1) did not intend their work to be used by a for profit LLM, and 2) actively do not want their work used by an LLM at all }, is part of these changes.
Scraping isn't reading, etc etc. But also when did we just stop respecting people's wishes with the stuff they post? Like I made my own word scramble js script because a website owner didn't get back to me on whether I could use theirs, even though the script is right there to copy paste.
These companies just did the yolo founder-disrupter impatient thing when they could have been chill and done this all legit.
So you're saying the review process worked as designed?
Maybe it did, but apparently the code was not properly reviewed initially, so there could be other hidden problems.
Of course that's the same for human made code, but there's a problem in only judging code from how it performs, and not actually understanding the code. And that seems to be the situation with a lot of AI code.
And particularly disturbing when the human understanding failure is from the original and lead Linux developer.
100% that is the worst place to have the problem originate.
I have rarely disagreed with Linus Torvalds on things regarding the kernel, and maybe I'm wrong, but I strongly disagree with him on this issue. Contributing code nobody understands cannot be a good thing.
Contributing code nobody understands cannot be a good thing.
You people act like Linux adopted an all-AI pipeline.
The code still undergoes the exact same code review as before, because humans were the original slop coders.
The standards needed for code to be accepted haven't changed at all. Even the code Linus personally is reviewed..
The code still undergoes the exact same code review as before.
That's not good enough, because it is well documented that AI often make mistakes and absolutely needs to undergo way stricter review.
It is also well documented that although you can achieve some results quickly, AI code also quickly becomes impossible to maintain.
If nobody understands the code, as it seems was the case here, and it is introduced anyway, the kernel is doomed to deteriorate.
My wife has already noticed deteriorating quality in Debian, with system hangs after they loosened the requirements for AI code. The quality of Debian now is lower than it has been in a decade!
Maybe you need to watch something like this:
Lol. That guy banned me from his community
Maybe because you are making stupid ignorant comments.
Or maybe his blog post falls apart completely by simply pointing out that AI isn't approving code, code doesn't go straight to main, and all code is manually code reviewed by human.
And his blog is pages of slop.
AI isn’t approving code
You really seem to believe that's a good point, but it isn't.
It is an extremely well documented fact that critical/independent thinking declines with use of AI, and you apparently have zero understanding of that fact.
Did you even read that 1 study you're repeating, or just click the link
If you read the study, they ran the tests over 13 mins only. And, they didn't keep retesting to see if results changed over time either. If that ran the test over an hour, both results may have ended up at similar levels (we don't know because it only tested over a short time)
You need to learn to stop exaggerating or actually read crap instead of just the headline lol
I know it's the same study we both (or presumably just myself) read, because it was the only one. I wouldn't call that "extremely well" anything
You seem to believe that's a great response. At this point, you're just arguing (which seems to be most of your Lemmy history).
If you want to argue that a journalist with a slop blog and no evidence of being a developer anywhere is credible, that's up to you.
All I see is obviously bad journalism from a guy who wants attention...
Is it an understanding failure, an unexpected interaction, or just an existing issue now exposed? A 23x performance increase could very well expose an existing race condition that systems weren't fast enough to run into.
People make mistakes. Software bugs existing at all is proof of this. This is certainly not the first time a change Torvalds approved has an issue, and it won't be the last.
There's a reason code is reviewed, and there's a reason people still go through after it is approved and verify. The process is working exactly as designed, the way it has for decades before AI coding.
Expecting absolute perfection is ridiculous, the anti-AI circlejerk acting like only AI fucks up just makes them look ridiculous. Any developer could have developed this fix, and there would be no article. Nothing in this issue is specific to AI usage and treating it like it is somehow special just undermines arguments against AI slop and vibe coding in general.
So, let me get this right. You're disapproving on how things were handled based on your speculation of how it went?
Not based on speculation, based on numerous analysis of the problems with using AI code you don't understand.
Clearly Linus failed to understand the code, otherwise he wouldn't have suggested it for submission.
You seem to have a problem with criticism of Linus, is it a religious thing?
You understand it less it sounds like.
This isn't a unique or interesting story in any capacity.... It's boring and normal
Of course of course. How dare you blaspheme against our Lord and Saviour, filthy infidel!
But anyway, I'd like to be as enlightened as you. Could you name any of those numerous analyses that detail exactly what Torvalds did and what he failed to understand?
No I can't, because those are so general and commonly known, that if you somehow are unaware, you must have been living under a rock for the past year.
The second option is that you are just trolling or for some reason is in denial.
Either way I'm not wasting my time on any of those options.
Only while there are still reviewers who care to review the slop. Which is a rare breed and will quickly soon vanish.
That's what code review is for lol.
Where is the story here?
LLMs make slop code faster than humans can meaningfully review. If you make LLMs the only review layer, then slop gets through because they have similar biases. Stop making slop.
Cool assumption. But pretty sure it's not how things work at all but sounds great...
What actually happens is that you have a long list of multiple maintainers reviewing , and multiple branches for testing, and multiple layers of review too.
https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/next/process/maintainers.html . See that long list of maintainers for a start.
The actual policy is that everything ends up getting reviewed by a human. If I post a patch, it doesn't go straight to master
If it's not being properly tested and maintained, it gets dropped irrespective of what it is (remember devfs?)
Also, I'm not sure about the kernel specifically, but on projects I submitted code to, they often wanted complex patches broken down if possible.
Yes this means the review process is working. What is important to track is if LLM code causes a disproportionately large number of reviews or reviews that take longer because whoever generated the code doesn't actually know what it is doing. Hopefully not the case here but it does happen a lot with LLM coding.
XZ Utils made it past all those checks with malicious code from a human.
If they’d been more careful with their tarball commits it probably would have made it into the final and commercial distros.
It made into Homebrew for instance.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's not the kernel...
You are correct, also has nothing to do with AI, just malicious actors.
Yep. And the kernel did actually have a backdoor attempt at some point. And it was noticed too https://www.infoq.com/news/2013/10/Linux-Backdoor/
You had to lean on that assumption that there's a massive amount being produced to make this point though.
The actual operating point is that the slop is made faster than humans can WRITE it.
Reviewing 100 lines of code thats 90% there and took 3 minutes to produce is faster than writing it from scratch, there's no getting around that.
For me the issue with it is that all (hyperbole) work is about to become reading instead of creating, dull.
Where is the story here?
"AI bad. AI do bad thing. Let's point and laugh at AI doing bad thing to delegitimize the technology in the public's eyes."
Meanwhile, at work, I interact with coding agents on a regular basis, and the results are pretty good. Then it goes through a local blind review by a more powerful agent, get pushed out to the company's code review agent, which is designed to be as critical as possible, check the ticket details, make sure everything matches what the design plan says. Depending on the repo, it might even go through an extra security review.
Then, because we aren't fucking stupid, it goes through the standard code review process by real developers. Sometimes they still find something, sometimes the agent code reviews found way more than a human can. Overall, I trust the current process over our previous one, where some guy spends barely two minutes looking at the code, rubberstamps it, and then QA discovers a few bugs that need fixing, because the damn code review wasn't as through and critical as it should have been.
This is key. Don't use AI to replace people, but as an extra layer to ensure quality. You still need the human code review, but there are things that the AI might catch faster than a human would. There are things that AI might catch that a human might miss. But keep the human in the loop.
Thank you. This is a tool just like everything else. Garbage in equals garbage out. Generative coding in the right hands is an extremely powerful tool.
It's a difference between kids playing with fireworks. (Vibe coders that know nothing about software development) And rocket scientists at NASA building a new shuttle. (Real developers with controlled thoughtful AI workflows)
the level of smugness in this reply, to compare AI slopists with NASA rocket scientists, its fucking astounding
The smugness in assuming that 'anyone who uses x tool is stupid.'
Self awareness at critical low.
I was making a point about people who are experts in their field, and people who know nothing about said field.
Username checks out.
Username checks out.
the last refuge for people who cant mount a proper retort. As expected of someone like you. You grab the low hanging fruit, blind to the trap, then think you're a world leading genius for going directly where you're directed.
Wow! Says the person who started off throwing insults by calling me smug. I only agreed with your own assement of yourself via your username, if you took that as insult, it's a you problem. But, at least you know that insulting people is disrespectful. Maybe try heeding your own advice before you start talking shit to strangers on the Internet. How "astoundingly" oblivious of you to make that comment.
You okay man? You read so much into my comment it makes me worry a little for ya. Hope you have a better day man.
replies to the same comment twice youre reading too much into this
Slop, not even once
This isn't even a coherent comment LOL
Real developer who has done programming every day for over a decade now. AI is shit. It's bad.
Real developer who has been programming daily since the 80s. The quality of the models used to vary pretty wildly, but here in the past year or two, everything has gotten way better and most models are pretty capable. Claude, Gemini, GLM, Kimi, DeepSeek. The prices haven't, but my advice is to ignore the bullshit and just pick the models that work for you. Claude isn't 25x better than DeepSeek, so it doesn't deserve to be 25x the cost.
I think Claude and OpenAI have started to realize that nobody's buying their overpriced token costs. Although, frankly, none of these prices even make sense compared the cost of compute for an average cloud-based GPU cluster. I can't see how any of these companies are making a profit, just riding the private equality wave until the money runs out. Maybe Amazon, Microsoft, Google, since they own their own hardware, but not OpenAI or Anthropic. China's going to run them out of business in a few years, anyway.
And of course, if you have the option, use local models. VRAM size is still a bit of a problem, but quantization techniques have gone a long way. You can run a decent model on a personal PC with a bit of tweaking, for home programming tasks, or just a personal model that doesn't immediately sell your data to Peter Thiel.
Claude at $20 per month is a pretty good deal. But paying per token is a rip-off. Either way, we need open models so we won't be dependent on a big tech trying to monopolise this.
My boss has been in it since like the early 80s, programming with basic and assembly. The turning point for him was a month or so ago when Claude found a bug in our mesh firmware that he had been trying to figure out for months. Edge case in hub mode when a message was in route to a device that momentarily dropped from the mesh. Flag gets cleared but no timer set to clear the buffer if the device doesn't show back up in time. Super fun async RF problems, intermittent and ridiculously hard to find proxy buffer issue that was nearly impossible to reproduce. Old devs made code to lie and say the device was offline when it was still send it's UID over RDM. So they knew the bug was there for YEARS. With a ton of logs and access to the specific files, Claude found the bug in like 45 mins. It was kind of crazy.
As an electrical engineer who has been doing full stack dev, firmware all the way up to board design and layout for about 16 years now, it's getting better every single day. My boss is finally coming around after being the biggest shit talker for the last year and half. Is the code perfect? No. Does anyone write perfect code... NO! It is a tool that needs to be driven correctly. If you don't like it, don't use it! Is it going away? No! And it doesn't look like anything we say is going to change that. Live with it, it's the only option.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinions. Everyone has their own experiences too. Be fucking nice tho, why is everyone so hostile. Go back to reddit if you want to be an asshole. Not you dread beef, just in general.
You can dev as long as you like, doesnt make you good at using a new tool by default. Its a tool, it works for millions of people. Why do you think you're special.
I have to do the PRs for the rest of my team in india who are just using claude all day. That's what my job turned into. A month ago I was writing code for features, today i'm watching the offshore team produce shit ai. Every person on my team left or was let go, and no replacements. Management literally told us no one is writing code anymore, and if they do, it will be tweaking claude output.
That seems like the worse of both worlds. About 95% of my code nowadays is agent-generated, but it's based on my input, because I'm the fucking expert. Outsourcing the work just turns it into the same "garbage in, garbage out" process that outsourcing always does.
I'm self taught. Didn't go to uni. I can learn anything. That's what makes me special. These ai people need it and literally cry when it's gone. They're pathetic.
"Real developer who has done assembly every day for ten years now. Compilers are shit. It's bad"
?? AI is nothing like a compiler 😂 Its just autocomplete. Compilers are deterministic btw. All good tools are. I dont want to play whack a mole with autocomplete.
What model was the last one you used? Fable and opus 5.5 produce pretty good code, and also can find quite a lot of edge case issues too when reviewing.
the llm should have done it in rust. race impossible
this is the story :)
AI bad. Bugs never occurred when human built code. We had to come up with a completely new term, unknown in programming before, called "race condition".
From my experience reviewing LLM generated code is many times higher.
Linus probably uses AI effectively, but the question is how long until his skill deteriorate because of it.
I'd be more concerned with him and people of that generation aging out maintaining the project first, and newer generations not having the skills to begin with to carry it forward.
Yeah. Linux maintenace becomes a paid subscription through the ai providers
of that generation
Ouch.
I think 'we' have about 20 years left in us. That's long enough for an entire new pet language to be born, surge, wane, and then die. ...or 27 entirely new web frameworks.
It's hard to believe he's not also thinking about succession and actively mentoring younger folks. The Linux kernel is his baby and he seems enmeshed enough on the community level. He's smart enough to not simply leave it to chance.
This is why my hope is on Redox OS. I wish it would get a bit more resources.
I don’t know. People are creative. They’ll get burned and learn from their mistakes. At least, the ones who do will survive in their careers — then pass on the knowledge, repeat. So I imagine Linus will be replaced just fine when he retires. Wait until we’re 2 or 3 generations into using AI for development. It’s not like people are rocks; people don’t tend to just keep sinking.
Linus hasn't programmed much for years. He is a manager. I imagine lots of managers are seduced by vibe coding. Programming can be a real slog and takes so much time. Why walk when you can drive?
The problem isn't with Linus losing his skills but sustainability of the entire FOSS space. I don't think many young programmers are ever going to learn the lessons Linus did as a young person and those lessons are still very relevant for low level code working closely with hardware. When the pre-LLM programmers age out I think we are going to be treading water for years with LLM regurgitating variations on the same old human code without much direction or innovation.
It is arguably a different situation for something like webdev which is mostly paint by numbers or enterprise software that is solving the same problems over and over.
This ^^^
It’s a, err, medium term problem. There’s going to be a serious deficit of attentive human problem solvers before anything can “automate” that away.
Why walk when you can drive?
Depends on how much you drive. If you do it long enough that you forget how to walk, you'll be stuck when the car runs out of gas. And it's running out of gas.
Also, are we forgetting how AI was trained? It's a stealing machine.
Skill of what? If anything his skill of how not to fuck up will improve.
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