Here before the ml users screech about Ukraine being a Nazi state
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If I were a master tactitcian, I would say this publicly knowing that Russia will not restrict its own airspace to avoid pissing off the people he really doesn't want to piss off.
But when the Russians see the drones, they will not be booking flights. I imagine pilots may avoid flying all together. This will neuter air transport.
Everything must be done by ground - train or automotive. Ukraine can then target russian transport infrastructure to inhibit the movement of troops, supplies, weapons, and important economic streams.
Wars are not won by out killing the enemy. Wars are won when logistics are halted.
Cut off the food, water, fuel and ammo to the front line, and it shatters.
Damn, elect a comedian, get a fucking leader.
Right? I came in here to comment "Imagine Trump trying to convey that level of nuance. Or even be able to comprehend it." heh.
I'm glad that Ukraine IS being considerate of civilians, unlike Russia. I think it's crazy that people hold Ukraine to such higher standards - although in fairness, I would hope that they do strive for such standards. It's part of why much of the world is on their side in the first place.
Doesn't work the other way around though, Trump was not a leader.
Trump's a joke not a comedian.
I might have mixed up comedians with clowns.
It already was unsafe for aircraft from most countries anyway. This is just a kind warning for Russia and China who still flies there. It'll be interesting to see what China does. It was only yesterday that someone here wrote how he preferred the Chinese airlines because they flew the fast route over Russia. Guess you need to reconsider that.
It’ll be interesting to see what China does.
If the Ukrainians shoot down a Chinese civilian airliner, they would be fucking themselves at a level that has not been seen since Pearl Harbor.
While Ukraine has a huge domestic drone assembly industry, I'm sure a lot of the basic chips and radios are still coming from China. It's not hyperbole to say the war hinges on that supply continuing.
OTOH, Russia AA loves shooting down civilian airliners and they're going to be getting twitchy around airports now.
I doubt Ukrainian drones can even fly that high. This is a kind warning to let people know that russian air defense is going to be so keyed up that they'll likely shoot down civilian airliners. Again.
I doubt Ukrainian drones can even fly that high.
Drones aren't the only tool in the kit. There's no shortage of anti-air defenses that can hit commercial airliners, especially as they're taking off or landing.
This is a kind warning to let people know that russian air defense is going to be so keyed up that they’ll likely shoot down civilian airliners.
If a civilian aircraft is shot down, the Ukrainians will almost certainly insist the Russians did it themselves. Idk how many people will believe them, after Zelensky basically painted a target on every Russian airport.
If you're flying a civilian plane near a warzone you don't get to cry when it gets hit.
Okay, now say it in the original Japanese
I assume that's a Confucius quip but he was Chinese, perhaps you should clarify what you mean.
I don't think anyone was suggesting the ukrainians would do that. Buuuut if a Chinese aircraft ended up colliding with a drone after being warned not to fly in Russian airspace, well then it's just an unfortunate accident and it could have been avoided had they heeded the warning.
I'd be more worried that Russia downs a Chinese aircraft and blames it on Ukraine.
I don't think that accident will happen. See above pearl harbor comment.
Of course, killing however many civilians is always just collateral, if the right side does it.
WTF is even the point that you're trying to argue? That Ukraine should roll over and allow itself to be conquered? I doubt whether that's the point you're making, so please explain the underlying point of your argument, because it's not as self-evident as you seem to think it is.
Don't fantasise about war crimes, just because you think you're on the right team. It's not that complicated.
Who's fantasizing?
Let's not pretend Ukraine ultra echodot up there was articulating a pragmatic and neutral scenario. But if you do, you can also pretend to have entirely identical feelings on similar scenarios involving other players.
I don't think anyone was suggesting the Russians would do that. Buuuut if a German aircraft ended up colliding with a drone after being warned not to fly in Ukrainian airspace, well then it's just an unfortunate accident and it could have been avoided had they heeded the warning.
I don't think anyone was suggesting the Israelis would do that. Buuuut if a Spanish aircraft ended up colliding with a drone after being warned not to fly in Palestinian airspace, well then it's just an unfortunate accident and it could have been avoided had they heeded the warning.
I don't think anyone was suggesting the Lebanese would do that. Buuuut if a US aircraft ended up colliding with a drone after being warned not to fly in Israeli airspace, well then it's just an unfortunate accident and it could have been avoided had they heeded the warning.
I don't think anyone was suggesting the Iranians would do that. Buuuut if a Israeli aircraft ended up colliding with a drone after being warned not to fly in the Emirate's airspace, well then it's just an unfortunate accident and it could have been avoided had they heeded the warning.
I don't think anyone was suggesting the Saudis would do that. Buuuut if a Iranian aircraft ended up colliding with a drone after being warned not to fly in Yemeni airspace, well then it's just an unfortunate accident and it could have been avoided had they heeded the warning.
I don't think anyone was suggesting the US-Americans would do that. Buuuut if a Russian aircraft ended up colliding with a drone after being warned not to fly in Cuban airspace, well then it's just an unfortunate accident and it could have been avoided had they heeded the warning.
I don't think anyone was suggesting the Venezuelans would do that. Buuuut if a US aircraft ended up colliding with a drone after being warned not to fly in Cuban airspace, well then it's just an unfortunate accident and it could have been avoided had they heeded the warning.
I don't think anyone was suggesting the Chinese would do that. Buuuut if a US aircraft aircraft ended up colliding with a drone after being warned not to fly in Taiwanese airspace, well then it's just an unfortunate accident and it could have been avoided had they heeded the warning.
I don't think anyone was suggesting the French would do that. Buuuut if a Mali aircraft ended up colliding with a drone after being warned not to fly in Burkina Faso airspace, well then it's just an unfortunate accident and it could have been avoided had they heeded the warning.
Or, you could admit that you make differences, depending on who's who.
If a Ukraine "ultra" was going to fantasize about a scenario of that ilk, it would be that Chinese airlines simply stop flying over Russia. That's what would help Ukraine. A Chinese civilian airliner getting accidentally shot down in Russian airspace wouldn't really help Ukraine except to encourage Chinese airlines to simply stop flying over Russia, and if that's the result one is looking for, one would prefer to skip straight to that part and not have the civilian casualties in the first place, since Ukraine depends on international goodwill.
No, I think you've neglected to consider the possibility that echodot's comment was meant to be read at face value: that Ukraine doesn't want civilians shot down, but it's not going to sabotage its own war efforts to avoid that scenario either; not when civilians NOT flying into warzones is the easier and more obvious preventative.
Ukraine has no international goodwill and also does not rely on it. Ukraine solely depends on the goodwill of the Western capitalist block, as it's a puppet to fight a proxy war for them in order to weaken Russia. This is official policy, as I have explained and sourced in another comment. It's really only the US and it's close allies that vilify Russia. The rest of the world knows full well, that this is a farce, an attempt of Western Imperialism to subdue and deconstruct Russia in order to encircle China. This. Is. Official. Policy. Ukraine is the victim of Western Imperialism, a puppet, a proxy; this is consensus outside of the Western sphere of influence. Supporting the ongoing war effort, means supporting the demise of the Ukrainian people and the Russian people, means supporting the West's strategy to destroy Russia to gain Lebensraum, resources, power and encircle China.
Ukraine has long sold off it's own resources and sovereignty for material support and credit, it's now so highly in debt, that it will never be able to pay it back. It will have to give everything they've got left to Western banks and finance capital for investment opportunities. I don't know if you already forgot the power differential between Trump and Zelensky; he's a puppet. And no, that's not Russia's fault. You people celebrate the abuse of the Ukrainian people by the US and Europe, because you think their brothers in the east are the culprits. How do you on the one side manage to realize the horrific role the West plays in the Palestinian genocide, the US/Israel war on Iran, the bombing of innocent people. All well supported by every major European country accept Spain, which denied base access to the US, spoke out against the genocide and promptly got chastised for it ... how do you keep turning around to Ukraine and seriously think, this is a good and righteous war in the interest of the Ukrainian people? It's so disgusting.
Now, if the few western Lemmy internet people believe that or not is not even of any direct consequence, other than to make sure the populous does not rebel against the West's war effort, everybody stays in line and makes sure the general consensus in the EU is to become fit for war, to activate enough willing soldiers and supporters for the good cause™ to defend™ our values™, freedom™ and way of life™ (aka, directly attacking with NATO power by use of some kind of false flag, as is etiquette), because, you know, the evil Russians are coming for us (which they're not even).
The very same kind of war propaganda since before WW2, when it was important for German capital to fight the judeo-bolshevik brute from the east (aka communism) and later throughout the Cold War through Red Scare propaganda. This never stopped. The propaganda never stopped. Today the end game is China. And you people keep wondering what's up with all the right winginess throughout the West - sheeesh, that's capitalism for you, mutating into fascism, because it's in a crisis it can't lift itself out of. Western capital outsourced all of its production forces to cheaper global south countries and now has nothing left to innovate and produce, get's overtaken by a new socialist super power, China. The west just can't compete in their own system. All that's left is war economy. VW is planning to switch to weapons manufacturing in Germany (Osnabrück), and several US and Israeli weapons manufacturers are planning to build factories in structurally week regions (Elbit Systems in Sangerhausen, Covenant in Leipzig), where people are desperate for jobs. (German examples, because I'm German and more involved in that country's politics). The government just yesterday officially blamed Russia for a drone incident, that they can't show because they don't even have any evidence for. They just claim it is so, with trust me bro logic, in order to escalate relations and fearmonger their citizens into compliance.
Once Europe's elite decides they're prepared well enough, they will force their own working class to go die on the front for the interests of the capitalist ruling class. Russia and China are the West's adversaries, so Ukraine, scrambling to survive in this unwinnable war they where forced into (by the West), has always had a very strong motive to escalate and to involve other countries in the actual war, in the hopes they don't have to do it all alone, with the mere weaponry support of the west; sending their own men, while Western Europe doesn't need to send their own, because Ukraine has to fight their war for them.
If you're serious with your demeanour, I find you horribly naive. To the point where I'm inclined to think you're doing this purposefully, since you're so busy posting Western war propaganda.
TL;DR:
No, Ukraine's government is not relying on international goodwill.
Yes, Ukraine's government has a lot of reasons to escalate.
Ukraine, scrambling to survive in this unwinnable war they where forced into (by the West)
I rather think that Ukraine was forced into this war when it was attacked. By Russia. And there's a UN resolution to that effect, which 141 nations, not just NATO, voted for.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_General_Assembly_Resolution_ES-11/1
I'm sorry the German government is incapable of recognizing the truth on Israel and Palestine. Obviously it is unwilling to risk allowing antisemitism to rise again, and that's a valid concern, so I understand why, but I know it must be frustrating for you to not even be allowed to have the conversation.
That doesn't mean that Russia isn't targeting civilians in this war. It's not the good guy. It doesn't need to be at war with Ukraine. Unfortunately the world is more complicated than "the West is bad and everyone against the West is good".
Nah man. I'm not denying reality, of course Russia did invade Ukraine. You're not proving or disproving anything, lol. The UN vote back in 2022 also doesn‘t say anything about international support, it only confirms the international condemnation of the invasion. But you surely also can see the huge yellow parts, right?
Your yapping about the German government, pretending like there's no bigger dynamics going on is just as ridiculous as your pseudo-innocent takes. Germany is complicit in the genocide and are actively repressing opposition to their own criminality. Further, as if it's only the German government, that does not recognize the truth about Israel and Palestine, right, not like in the UK people are being arrested left and right for the terrorism of speaking out. The EU sanctions their own journalists. In the US people are getting deported. Hell, they freaking bought TikTok and gave it to a Zionist billionaire to smother uncensored Palestine reporting, by getting a hold of the algorithm, after which it became a right wing pro Israel platform. This also has been openly admitted by, ... dunno who it was, Graham or some ghoul.
Obvisously it is unwilling to risk allowing antisemitism to rise again, and that's a valid concern, so I understand why, but (...)
Ah, right, that's where you coming from. Quite exposing from an anti-zionist perspective. Way to defend a genocide supporting and war facilitating country. Very considered of you.
That doesn't mean that Russia isn't targeting civilians in this war. It's not the good guy.
Nobody said that, further bad faithing. You pretend, as if I haven't explained entirely different dynamics. BuT rUsSiA, sToP lOoKiNg At OuR sO-cAlLeD dEmOcRaCiEs!!!1
It doesn't need to be at war with Ukraine.
But it decided, that it needed to, in order to survive against NATO aggression. It's not like there's an undo button. And only denying them their perspective and pretending like NATO is not the most dangerous organization on earth would be quite the unequal measure. Maybe that wouldn‘t have happened, if the Ukrainian fascists didn‘t murder 14.000 of their fellow landsman, just because they were Russian speaking. Who knows. But there's no reason to ignore reality. Except, if you're ignorant, not interested in truth seeking or have an agenda.
Unfortunately the world is more complicated than "the West is bad and everyone against the West is good".
Unfortunately, I didn't say that "everyone against the West is good". That's not even an argument, it's nothing but an empty phrase. You've got nothing. But yes, the West is the bane if humanity. It‘s the main aggressor, exploiter, polluter and oppressor. It‘s a fact. Again, no need to deny reality. The world is moving on, they‘re fed up with it.
Thanks for showing your allegiance. So you're not acting out of naivity, but purposefully. Noted. You know, back in early '24, if you acted like that, but focused on the topic of I/P, you'd be marked as a Hasbara agent. You gotta stay more organic and sincere with your answers. Your professional deflection speak is unauthentic. Say, have you considered not to sell your soul?
OK, I suppose that's my fault for trying to establish a human rapport by acknowledging that we both find German governmental policy towards Israel frustrating. I guess it was a little condescending, but I didn't mean it to be. But fuck me I guess. I retract the attempt to empathize with you.
Can we go back to discussing the issue? I'm gonna ignore the parts of your comment that were just personal attacks on me, but I'm only gonna do that once.
The UN vote back in 2022 also doesn‘t say anything about international support, it only confirms the international condemnation of the invasion. But you surely also can see the huge yellow parts, right?
Yes I can. I can also see the huge green parts. Considering that you said:
Ukraine has no international goodwill
...I think pointing out that 141 voted in favor of the resolution is a fair rebuttal to your claim. I think it's possible that when I say "support", I mean something different than you mean.
Germany is complicit in the genocide and are actively repressing opposition to their own criminality. Further, as if it’s only the German government, that does not recognize the truth about Israel and Palestine, right, not like in the UK people are being arrested left and right for the terrorism of speaking out. The EU sanctions their own journalists. In the US people are getting deported. Hell, they freaking bought TikTok and gave it to a Zionist billionaire to smother uncensored Palestine reporting, by getting a hold of the algorithm, after which it became a right wing pro Israel platform. This also has been openly admitted by, … dunno who it was, Graham or some ghoul.
My underlying point was that the German government was not motivated by malice but by fear of allowing itself to be overcome with antisemitism again, so it's overcorrecting and now ironically it's once again, as you say, complicit in genocide. The fact that we agree on the complicity in genocide was what I hoped would form common ground between us, but I think you thought I was trying to justify genocide and, well, now we're here.
Nobody said that, further bad faithing. You pretend, as if I haven’t explained entirely different dynamics. BuT rUsSiA, sToP lOoKiNg At OuR sO-cAlLeD dEmOcRaCiEs!!!1
I honestly don't know what you're trying to say here. Can you rephrase?
But it decided, that it needed to, in order to survive against NATO aggression. It’s not like there’s an undo button. And only denying them their perspective and pretending like NATO is not the most dangerous organization on earth would be quite the unequal measure. Maybe that wouldn‘t have happened, if the Ukrainian fascists didn‘t murder 14.000 of their fellow landsman, just because they were Russian speaking. Who knows. But there’s no reason to ignore reality.
Do you really want to commit to the claim that the only reason that there was a war in Ukraine between 2014 and 2022 was that some Ukrainians wanted to kill other Ukrainians for speaking Russian? That's really the theory you're willing to hang your hat on? I'll debate that point if you want, but I sincerely doubt you actually believe that.
Unfortunately, I didn’t say that “everyone against the West is good”. That’s not even an argument, it’s nothing but an empty phrase. You’ve got nothing. But yes, the West is the bane if humanity. It‘s the main aggressor, exploiter, polluter and oppressor. It‘s a fact. Again, no need to deny reality. The world is moving on, they‘re fed up with it.
I really don't think any of that is true.
The whole point about closing the airspace over Russia is so civilians don't get accidentally shot down.
I think you've been drinking too much Russia's Kool-Aid. Which is possibly only marginally less healthy than the regular stuff.
Yes, sure, must be it.
I mean. I don't think anyone was suggesting echodot would imply otherwise. Must be Russian Kool-Aid.
I'm literally the same person 🙄
Thanks, I know. It's a play on your own cheeky remark:
I don't think anyone was suggesting the ukrainians would do that. Buuuut (excuse state terrorism)
Have a good day, same person!
I think that's just your reading comprehension at play. No one's excusing state terrorism or suggesting it happen.
I suggest that thread. Maybe you're not excusing it then, but at least trivialising it. You wouldn't do it the other way around, or in same scenario with other actors. You commented like that, because you feel affiliated with Ukraine and have a more dismissal attitude towards Russia and China.
It's heartbreaking to see how there were no repercussions for the Russian state sponsored cold-blooded murder of 298 people aboard MH17.
This may be a bit off-topic, but I think we can draw a parallel between Putins clusterfuck of a clown war and Trumps operation Epstein fury.
Turns out if you purge your entire military leadership and replace them with incompetent corrupt sycophantic asslickers before you do the funny, you’re in for a bad time.
It’s exactly the same thing. FAFO and desperately trying to save face
There was a learning period where the USA saw what ukraine can do with a larger force. Russia lost because of corruption America is not doing well because of incompetence.
Can Ukraine's military reach Vladivostok?
Not yet, but they can reach past the Ural mountains, they've hit targets in Yekaterinburg and Omsk. Most Russians live west of the Urals, so disrupting all that airspace is enough to disrupt personal life and production facilities. It won't disrupt resource extraction related logistics, but that's because that was never by air to begin with.
Is there a tactical advantage to hitting there. Considering Russia military is struggling to get equipment to other parts of Russia that shows how much Russia has lost control of there own airspace.
I don't think they could reliably get people to that area to launch drones, but I also don't think it would be particularly useful to do. MAYBE to further distract Russian air defenses, but as a certified Armchair Strategist, I don't really see any other advantage in doing it. Maybe if Russia was fighting someone else around there, but I don't think they're particularly keen on attacking Alaska currently.
flamingos maybe
Is Zelensky gonna pull an MH17 on Russia? As much as I support Ukraine, that would be a bad look… I guess the context will be different since there is now a warning and I doubt Ukraine would target jet liners like that intentionally but still, it’s getting into “does the end really justify the means” territory
He's not saying "we're gonna target civilian aircraft", he's saying "we're starting to really like using drones to hit various targets in Russia and are planning on doing more of that, so civilian aircraft might wanna avoid flying through Russia because it's gonna be hard to fly around all the drones there".
No, but its an active war zone and he is providing a clear warning that its extremely hazardous
By credibly warning that he intends to close the airspace he can make airlines think twice about flying in Russia in general and near Ukraine in particular, likely damaging the Russian economy even without actually lifting a finger. Who knows how serious he is
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