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Zelenskyy warns ‘Russian airspace will effectively be closing’ (www.euronews.com)
submitted 2 months ago by to c/world@lemmy.world
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The Ukrainian president warned airlines, insurers and foreign governments that the growing scale of Kyiv’s drone operations would make Russian airspace increasingly unsafe for aircraft.

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[–] 1 point 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (5 children)

Let's not pretend Ukraine ultra echodot up there was articulating a pragmatic and neutral scenario. But if you do, you can also pretend to have entirely identical feelings on similar scenarios involving other players.

I don't think anyone was suggesting the Russians would do that. Buuuut if a German aircraft ended up colliding with a drone after being warned not to fly in Ukrainian airspace, well then it's just an unfortunate accident and it could have been avoided had they heeded the warning.

I don't think anyone was suggesting the Israelis would do that. Buuuut if a Spanish aircraft ended up colliding with a drone after being warned not to fly in Palestinian airspace, well then it's just an unfortunate accident and it could have been avoided had they heeded the warning.

I don't think anyone was suggesting the Lebanese would do that. Buuuut if a US aircraft ended up colliding with a drone after being warned not to fly in Israeli airspace, well then it's just an unfortunate accident and it could have been avoided had they heeded the warning.

I don't think anyone was suggesting the Iranians would do that. Buuuut if a Israeli aircraft ended up colliding with a drone after being warned not to fly in the Emirate's airspace, well then it's just an unfortunate accident and it could have been avoided had they heeded the warning.

I don't think anyone was suggesting the Saudis would do that. Buuuut if a Iranian aircraft ended up colliding with a drone after being warned not to fly in Yemeni airspace, well then it's just an unfortunate accident and it could have been avoided had they heeded the warning.

I don't think anyone was suggesting the US-Americans would do that. Buuuut if a Russian aircraft ended up colliding with a drone after being warned not to fly in Cuban airspace, well then it's just an unfortunate accident and it could have been avoided had they heeded the warning.

I don't think anyone was suggesting the Venezuelans would do that. Buuuut if a US aircraft ended up colliding with a drone after being warned not to fly in Cuban airspace, well then it's just an unfortunate accident and it could have been avoided had they heeded the warning.

I don't think anyone was suggesting the Chinese would do that. Buuuut if a US aircraft aircraft ended up colliding with a drone after being warned not to fly in Taiwanese airspace, well then it's just an unfortunate accident and it could have been avoided had they heeded the warning.

I don't think anyone was suggesting the French would do that. Buuuut if a Mali aircraft ended up colliding with a drone after being warned not to fly in Burkina Faso airspace, well then it's just an unfortunate accident and it could have been avoided had they heeded the warning.

Or, you could admit that you make differences, depending on who's who.

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  • [–] [S] 1 point 2 months ago (4 children)

    If a Ukraine "ultra" was going to fantasize about a scenario of that ilk, it would be that Chinese airlines simply stop flying over Russia. That's what would help Ukraine. A Chinese civilian airliner getting accidentally shot down in Russian airspace wouldn't really help Ukraine except to encourage Chinese airlines to simply stop flying over Russia, and if that's the result one is looking for, one would prefer to skip straight to that part and not have the civilian casualties in the first place, since Ukraine depends on international goodwill.

    No, I think you've neglected to consider the possibility that echodot's comment was meant to be read at face value: that Ukraine doesn't want civilians shot down, but it's not going to sabotage its own war efforts to avoid that scenario either; not when civilians NOT flying into warzones is the easier and more obvious preventative.

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  • [–] 0 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (3 children)

    Ukraine has no international goodwill and also does not rely on it. Ukraine solely depends on the goodwill of the Western capitalist block, as it's a puppet to fight a proxy war for them in order to weaken Russia. This is official policy, as I have explained and sourced in another comment. It's really only the US and it's close allies that vilify Russia. The rest of the world knows full well, that this is a farce, an attempt of Western Imperialism to subdue and deconstruct Russia in order to encircle China. This. Is. Official. Policy. Ukraine is the victim of Western Imperialism, a puppet, a proxy; this is consensus outside of the Western sphere of influence. Supporting the ongoing war effort, means supporting the demise of the Ukrainian people and the Russian people, means supporting the West's strategy to destroy Russia to gain Lebensraum, resources, power and encircle China.

    Ukraine has long sold off it's own resources and sovereignty for material support and credit, it's now so highly in debt, that it will never be able to pay it back. It will have to give everything they've got left to Western banks and finance capital for investment opportunities. I don't know if you already forgot the power differential between Trump and Zelensky; he's a puppet. And no, that's not Russia's fault. You people celebrate the abuse of the Ukrainian people by the US and Europe, because you think their brothers in the east are the culprits. How do you on the one side manage to realize the horrific role the West plays in the Palestinian genocide, the US/Israel war on Iran, the bombing of innocent people. All well supported by every major European country accept Spain, which denied base access to the US, spoke out against the genocide and promptly got chastised for it ... how do you keep turning around to Ukraine and seriously think, this is a good and righteous war in the interest of the Ukrainian people? It's so disgusting.

    Now, if the few western Lemmy internet people believe that or not is not even of any direct consequence, other than to make sure the populous does not rebel against the West's war effort, everybody stays in line and makes sure the general consensus in the EU is to become fit for war, to activate enough willing soldiers and supporters for the good cause™ to defend™ our values™, freedom™ and way of life™ (aka, directly attacking with NATO power by use of some kind of false flag, as is etiquette), because, you know, the evil Russians are coming for us (which they're not even).

    The very same kind of war propaganda since before WW2, when it was important for German capital to fight the judeo-bolshevik brute from the east (aka communism) and later throughout the Cold War through Red Scare propaganda. This never stopped. The propaganda never stopped. Today the end game is China. And you people keep wondering what's up with all the right winginess throughout the West - sheeesh, that's capitalism for you, mutating into fascism, because it's in a crisis it can't lift itself out of. Western capital outsourced all of its production forces to cheaper global south countries and now has nothing left to innovate and produce, get's overtaken by a new socialist super power, China. The west just can't compete in their own system. All that's left is war economy. VW is planning to switch to weapons manufacturing in Germany (Osnabrück), and several US and Israeli weapons manufacturers are planning to build factories in structurally week regions (Elbit Systems in Sangerhausen, Covenant in Leipzig), where people are desperate for jobs. (German examples, because I'm German and more involved in that country's politics). The government just yesterday officially blamed Russia for a drone incident, that they can't show because they don't even have any evidence for. They just claim it is so, with trust me bro logic, in order to escalate relations and fearmonger their citizens into compliance.

    Once Europe's elite decides they're prepared well enough, they will force their own working class to go die on the front for the interests of the capitalist ruling class. Russia and China are the West's adversaries, so Ukraine, scrambling to survive in this unwinnable war they where forced into (by the West), has always had a very strong motive to escalate and to involve other countries in the actual war, in the hopes they don't have to do it all alone, with the mere weaponry support of the west; sending their own men, while Western Europe doesn't need to send their own, because Ukraine has to fight their war for them.

    If you're serious with your demeanour, I find you horribly naive. To the point where I'm inclined to think you're doing this purposefully, since you're so busy posting Western war propaganda.

    TL;DR:
    No, Ukraine's government is not relying on international goodwill. Yes, Ukraine's government has a lot of reasons to escalate.

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  • [–] [S] 1 point 2 months ago (2 children)

    Ukraine, scrambling to survive in this unwinnable war they where forced into (by the West)

    I rather think that Ukraine was forced into this war when it was attacked. By Russia. And there's a UN resolution to that effect, which 141 nations, not just NATO, voted for.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_General_Assembly_Resolution_ES-11/1

    I'm sorry the German government is incapable of recognizing the truth on Israel and Palestine. Obviously it is unwilling to risk allowing antisemitism to rise again, and that's a valid concern, so I understand why, but I know it must be frustrating for you to not even be allowed to have the conversation.

    That doesn't mean that Russia isn't targeting civilians in this war. It's not the good guy. It doesn't need to be at war with Ukraine. Unfortunately the world is more complicated than "the West is bad and everyone against the West is good".

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  • [–] 0 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 child)

    Nah man. I'm not denying reality, of course Russia did invade Ukraine. You're not proving or disproving anything, lol. The UN vote back in 2022 also doesn‘t say anything about international support, it only confirms the international condemnation of the invasion. But you surely also can see the huge yellow parts, right?

    Your yapping about the German government, pretending like there's no bigger dynamics going on is just as ridiculous as your pseudo-innocent takes. Germany is complicit in the genocide and are actively repressing opposition to their own criminality. Further, as if it's only the German government, that does not recognize the truth about Israel and Palestine, right, not like in the UK people are being arrested left and right for the terrorism of speaking out. The EU sanctions their own journalists. In the US people are getting deported. Hell, they freaking bought TikTok and gave it to a Zionist billionaire to smother uncensored Palestine reporting, by getting a hold of the algorithm, after which it became a right wing pro Israel platform. This also has been openly admitted by, ... dunno who it was, Graham or some ghoul.

    Obvisously it is unwilling to risk allowing antisemitism to rise again, and that's a valid concern, so I understand why, but (...)

    Ah, right, that's where you coming from. Quite exposing from an anti-zionist perspective. Way to defend a genocide supporting and war facilitating country. Very considered of you.

    That doesn't mean that Russia isn't targeting civilians in this war. It's not the good guy.

    Nobody said that, further bad faithing. You pretend, as if I haven't explained entirely different dynamics. BuT rUsSiA, sToP lOoKiNg At OuR sO-cAlLeD dEmOcRaCiEs!!!1

    It doesn't need to be at war with Ukraine.

    But it decided, that it needed to, in order to survive against NATO aggression. It's not like there's an undo button. And only denying them their perspective and pretending like NATO is not the most dangerous organization on earth would be quite the unequal measure. Maybe that wouldn‘t have happened, if the Ukrainian fascists didn‘t murder 14.000 of their fellow landsman, just because they were Russian speaking. Who knows. But there's no reason to ignore reality. Except, if you're ignorant, not interested in truth seeking or have an agenda.

    Unfortunately the world is more complicated than "the West is bad and everyone against the West is good".

    Unfortunately, I didn't say that "everyone against the West is good". That's not even an argument, it's nothing but an empty phrase. You've got nothing. But yes, the West is the bane if humanity. It‘s the main aggressor, exploiter, polluter and oppressor. It‘s a fact. Again, no need to deny reality. The world is moving on, they‘re fed up with it.

    Thanks for showing your allegiance. So you're not acting out of naivity, but purposefully. Noted. You know, back in early '24, if you acted like that, but focused on the topic of I/P, you'd be marked as a Hasbara agent. You gotta stay more organic and sincere with your answers. Your professional deflection speak is unauthentic. Say, have you considered not to sell your soul?

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  • [–] [S] 1 point 2 months ago

    OK, I suppose that's my fault for trying to establish a human rapport by acknowledging that we both find German governmental policy towards Israel frustrating. I guess it was a little condescending, but I didn't mean it to be. But fuck me I guess. I retract the attempt to empathize with you.

    Can we go back to discussing the issue? I'm gonna ignore the parts of your comment that were just personal attacks on me, but I'm only gonna do that once.

    The UN vote back in 2022 also doesn‘t say anything about international support, it only confirms the international condemnation of the invasion. But you surely also can see the huge yellow parts, right?

    Yes I can. I can also see the huge green parts. Considering that you said:

    Ukraine has no international goodwill

    ...I think pointing out that 141 voted in favor of the resolution is a fair rebuttal to your claim. I think it's possible that when I say "support", I mean something different than you mean.

    Germany is complicit in the genocide and are actively repressing opposition to their own criminality. Further, as if it’s only the German government, that does not recognize the truth about Israel and Palestine, right, not like in the UK people are being arrested left and right for the terrorism of speaking out. The EU sanctions their own journalists. In the US people are getting deported. Hell, they freaking bought TikTok and gave it to a Zionist billionaire to smother uncensored Palestine reporting, by getting a hold of the algorithm, after which it became a right wing pro Israel platform. This also has been openly admitted by, … dunno who it was, Graham or some ghoul.

    My underlying point was that the German government was not motivated by malice but by fear of allowing itself to be overcome with antisemitism again, so it's overcorrecting and now ironically it's once again, as you say, complicit in genocide. The fact that we agree on the complicity in genocide was what I hoped would form common ground between us, but I think you thought I was trying to justify genocide and, well, now we're here.

    Nobody said that, further bad faithing. You pretend, as if I haven’t explained entirely different dynamics. BuT rUsSiA, sToP lOoKiNg At OuR sO-cAlLeD dEmOcRaCiEs!!!1

    I honestly don't know what you're trying to say here. Can you rephrase?

    But it decided, that it needed to, in order to survive against NATO aggression. It’s not like there’s an undo button. And only denying them their perspective and pretending like NATO is not the most dangerous organization on earth would be quite the unequal measure. Maybe that wouldn‘t have happened, if the Ukrainian fascists didn‘t murder 14.000 of their fellow landsman, just because they were Russian speaking. Who knows. But there’s no reason to ignore reality.

    Do you really want to commit to the claim that the only reason that there was a war in Ukraine between 2014 and 2022 was that some Ukrainians wanted to kill other Ukrainians for speaking Russian? That's really the theory you're willing to hang your hat on? I'll debate that point if you want, but I sincerely doubt you actually believe that.

    Unfortunately, I didn’t say that “everyone against the West is good”. That’s not even an argument, it’s nothing but an empty phrase. You’ve got nothing. But yes, the West is the bane if humanity. It‘s the main aggressor, exploiter, polluter and oppressor. It‘s a fact. Again, no need to deny reality. The world is moving on, they‘re fed up with it.

    I really don't think any of that is true.

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