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A touch of AI is all it takes to trigger backlash, as a promising new indie falls afoul of slop skeptics (www.pcgamer.com)
submitted 2 months ago by to c/technology@lemmy.world
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Vapor World: Over The Mind is a Soulslike Metroidvania with an evocative, painterly art style reminiscent of Lies of P and the narrative platformers of Playdead. According to Korean studio Alive Inc, the game had 100,000 wishlists just before its early access launch on August 19, mostly on the strength of a demo available since January 2025.

But what should have been a triumphant early access launch went pear shaped very quickly. At launch, few talked about the quite distinctive worldbuilding or the parry-heavy combat. Instead, all focus was trained entirely on something absent from the popular demo: very obvious AI use.

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[–] 34 points 2 months ago (1 child)

Director Young Kim,

"That was a hasty judgment on my part. Unless AI takes one more leap and reaches a point where no one can tell the difference, what I believed was still closer to an ideal than a reality. I expected some of you would be disappointed by our use of AI. I did not expect it to become this big."

"I'm sorry we got caught this time. We'll try to dupe you again later."

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    • [–] 28 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (3 children)

    Slop skeptics, lol.

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  • [–] 13 points 2 months ago (2 children)

    Hmmm... Yeah, I'm not sure about all of this slop yet 🤔

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    • [–] 116 points 2 months ago (2 children)

    Stupid games, stupid prizes. I'm really glad the gaming community at large is presenting a resounding "fuck off" to sloperators and their plagiarism machines trying to steal the work of actual creatives. It's disgusting, and should be met with sharp rebuke

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  • [–] 24 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    There was enough slop out there in the gaming world before AI stole center stage. And yet there are so many games getting released every day that it’s genuinely difficult for new developers to get noticed. Tried+true studios are hitting diminishing returns. Gamers have a cornucopia of options old and new, and can afford to say no in this market much more easily than in most other markets.

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    • [–] 16 points 2 months ago

    Soulslop, if you will.

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    [–] 32 points 2 months ago (25 children)

    a Soulslike Metroidvania

    Is this the gaming equivalent of increasingly niche music genres?

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  • [–] 8 points 2 months ago (3 children)

    Dilution of buzzwords like roguelike and roguelite. I'm waiting for soulslite to pop up soon.

    Although metroidvania I somehow have no qualms with, since pretty much any that I've seen is pretty faithful.

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  • [–] 2 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    Roguelike = like Rogue, no meta progression

    Roguelite = usually just means like Rogue with meta progression

    I had to go look these up to know there was a difference and I like these games.

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  • [–] 0 points 2 months ago

    Roguelike is more complex, there's no governing body to decide on a proper definition, but I think the consensus that was reached long ago includes elements like turn-based, grid-based, non-modal, playable in an ASCII terminal. I think the last one is outdated, but the rest are significant components of what makes roguelikes... roguelikes.

    Modality in games is a particularly interesting aspect when you start looking at various other games, and something that matches up with things I dislike in games. One fun example is movement in FPS games, which can be built either on universal mechanics or a predefined moveset - some games will allow you to perform a vault move when next to a low obstacle, other games might let you crouch, jump, and crouch while jumping to get over low obstacles.

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  • [–] 8 points 2 months ago (14 children)

    One of the things that drew me into Dark Souls to begin with was that it had some of that metroidvania feel. A soulslike metroidvania just sounds kind of redundant as a genre.

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  • [–] 5 points 2 months ago (2 children)

    I believe the defining feature of the metroidvania genre is that it's essentially an open world, but certain paths are barred by the need of a specific item/movement mechanic. Like "you need to learn double jump to reach the high platform that lets you access this new area".

    Where as Dark Souls immediately lets you wander into the graveyard or spooky ghost area and get your ass handed to you repeatedly until you wonder, oh maybe this wasn't the best path!

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  • [–] 4 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    At the same time, most of the endgame zones are gated behind the lordvessel. And that is gated behind sens and the bells. Four lords behind the ring from sif. That's gated behind the crest from andre. So there are certainly some walls.

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  • [–] 2 points 2 months ago

    I haven't played souls games, but perhaps the difference is how central that is to progression? In a metroidvania the world is typically littered by both paths you can't go through and secrets for you to find, both of which require abilities you'll be gathering consistently as the main method of progression. As you wander the same paths, the abilities make it easier and faster while letting you find those secrets and now-usable paths to progress further.

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  • [–] 2 points 2 months ago* (10 children)

    I was about to say the same thing. Any Souls-like that actually understands the format is already a Metroidvania. Some think it has something to do with combat, or bonfires, but really it's the exploration that makes it soul-like.

    Honestly, it's really just a new trendier way to call a game a Metroidvania. I can't think of any functional differences between the genres. Arguably, RPG mechanics, but many games using the Souls-like description don't have this, and Sekiro doesn't, so I think they're just two terms for the same genre. Metroidvania often has a 2D connotation, and Souls a 3D one, but they're both used for either.

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  • [–] 3 points 2 months ago (9 children)

    but really it’s the exploration that makes it soul-like

    Maybe ideally but mostly it means "hard combat against bosses with predictable attacks you learn to dodge around".

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  • [–] 2 points 2 months ago* (8 children)

    Yeah, that's the bad understanding I'm talking about. It's a purely surface level view of them, and it's not what makes them interesting or popular. There are plenty of games with that that suck, so it can't be the foundation of what Souls-likes are.

    It's also a mechanic that Metroidvanias classically have too, so yeah...

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  • [–] 2 points 2 months ago (3 children)

    There are plenty of games with that that suck, so it can't be the foundation of what Souls-likes are.

    I'm sure there are also plenty of games with exploration that suck, I don't think that really makes it a valid point. I can't speak to what soulslikes are, since I haven't played the original games, but a game can implement one element well and still fail at being an interesting game, which doesn't invalidate that element in any way.

    Realistically, can't both combat and exploration be foundational elements of soulslike? I got the impression a big part is the way the combat works, usually involving a lot of commitment into your combat moves, with animations on attacks, dodges, heals, and multiple ways to be punished (and punish enemies), including plain damage, wasting items, wasting stamina.

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  • [–] 2 points 2 months ago (2 children)

    There's something at the heart of them that makes them interesting. It isn't just "exploration", but a particular style of exploration, which will not fail. It isn't just boss fights with dodging, because having that alone doesn't have the heart of a Souls game. The exploration alone could, but yeah, obviously it has to be done properly, not just "exploration".

    Realistically, can't both combat and exploration be foundational elements of soulslike?

    It could. I honestly don't think it is. Sekiro is also a Souls-like, and the combat is very different. I'm pretty confident you can make a good Souls-like with no combat. The combat, in my opinion, is there to give you a reason to explore. It's there to be a challenge, where exploring is the key to overcoming it. There will be items and secrets that make the combat easier if you search for it. It's not required, but you'd need something else to take the place of this.

    Chants of Sennaar comes to mind of something I'd consider to capture a lot of the spirit of Souls games without combat. They're obviously very different games, but I think they share a lot. You can try to brute force your way through, but you're encouraged to explore and engage with the world, and discover it, which makes the critical path easier. This is the goal for both Souls-likes and CoS.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago (1 child)

    One thing I'll say is that Chants of Sennaar is, to my knowledge, usually compared to metroidvanias, part of a subgenre sometimes called "metroidbrainia", also known as knowledge-gated/rule-discovery puzzle games. Though it's a bit debatable in terms of how much of it is gated by knowledge, and how much is built to be mechanical progression, but the general idea holds.

    I'm also not sure if you can really bruteforce your way through it, but it's been a while since I've played it.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago*

    You can't totally brute force it, but you can brute force certain words IIRC.

    But yeah, it's basically a Metroidvania where combat is replaced by puzzles, but that's my point. Souls-like is just a trendy new way to say Metroidvania. I literally can't think of a functional difference between them. Every Metroidvania I think could just as well call itself a Souls-like, and vice versa, and nothing would change. I remember DS1 being called a Metroidvania originally.

    The difference is almost purely aesthetic. Like I said earlier, possibly the only real distinguishing factor is RPG mechanics, but there are examples of games using either genre description with and without that, so I don't think it's required.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago (3 children)

    Being good or not isn't what qualifies something to fall into a particular genre, though

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago (2 children)

    That's not what I meant. I meant that the core experience will be good if it replicates what the Souls games do, which is why they're successful. Many "Souls-likes" replicate the combat, and it sucks. Honestly, the DS1 and Demons Souls combat is pretty rough, but they revolutionized gaming, and the boss fights weren't the unique thing they were doing. Boss fights like them have existed forever.

    If you look at the older FromSoftware catalogue, you can see what makes their games special. The older games have incredibly clunky combat, but they still have the core exploration loop. There's a hand built world with care and thought put into every detail, and the game gives obstacles that get easier if you engage with the world and explore. This is often with items or levels, but it's sometimes just with information. This is what makes a Souls-likes, and the copycats that fail are missing this (or they just didn't make an interesting world to explore). Hollow Knight isn't great because of the combat. The combat is fine, but it's the interesting world that's begging for you to engage with it that makes it compelling. That's the core of Souls-likes.

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  • [–] 3 points 2 months ago*

    In my experience if a metroidvania game is described as soulslike it means it will have time wasting mechanics like corpse runs, and the spawn points will be placed in awkward locations. Mostly inspired by hollow knight.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago* (2 children)

    There's a billion games like this, it isn't even niche anymore. That basically describes hollow knight and a bunch of similar games.

    It's actually annoying how many new games insist on being edgelord-level difficulty because of DS. Silksong made me hate its guts after that mountain section. I'll never buy another one of their games again because of it

    Same with ER for that matter, it's a game I'd enjoy if it didn't force me to fight bosses like 50 times in a row. And no, I don't want to get git gud. Too old for that shit now.

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    [–] 28 points 2 months ago (9 children)

    And then after the backlash, the project director came out thinking the only issue was that the AI didn't look good enough. Yeah bro that was the issue glad you're in charge here to figure it all out.

    "If someone asked me what I think about using AI, the honest answer is that I would have to think about it for a long time," the director wrote. "The reason I chose AI was that I believed it could reach a level of expression our existing resources could not, and that it would let us focus more on the game itself, outside of story and cinematics."

    He continued: "That was a hasty judgment on my part. Unless AI takes one more leap and reaches a point where no one can tell the difference, what I believed was still closer to an ideal than a reality. I expected some of you would be disappointed by our use of AI. I did not expect it to become this big."

    …

    "The truth is, we spent a long time trying to tell this game's story with cutscenes made entirely by our own hands," the statement goes on. "The results were devastating every time. We came to believe we could not properly deliver this game's complex, difficult narrative that way, and that is why we turned to AI. But if that choice hurt your experience, the fault is not in the tool. It is in our own shortcomings."

    I don't get it how do artists get captured by the Shortcut Machine like this? Genuinely what worm is entering these people's brains where suddenly they don't know or care what art is and just want to ask grok to "make it look cool with dinosaurs and lightning and an erupting volcano." Brother if you can't do what you planned to, change the fucking plans. Those constraints are how we get cool and interesting new works and themed and art directions. People love the ps1-era graphics look and it's not because Square Enix asked chatgpt to generate a Tomb Raider cutscene in the style of Monet or whatever.

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  • [–] 6 points 2 months ago (2 children)

    “It would be better if you couldn’t tell that you were being lied to, and I’m annoyed that we got caught.”

    “We aren’t creative enough to tell this story ourselves.”

    That dude’s dumb as rocks, glad they’re facing a consequence.

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  • [–] 2 points 2 months ago (2 children)

    AI boosters are controlling the narrative around AI, and what constitutes as extreme positions on it. They made the general population believe, refusing to use AI, refusing to engage with genAI output, especially if paired with mean online comments, is extremism. Meanwhile they claim the "golden middle road" is using it as a tool, such as an already established artist using it to brainstorm ideas, use it for reference material, or use their preexisting capabilities to fix up the AI generated output. Similarly, pro-AI extremism is being downplayed to "slop posting", especially if it is paired with severe AI psychosis.

    Reality:

    • There are now some actual anti-AI extremists. The worst of them would not mind sacrificing a portion of the population to put the genie back into the bottle. Less severe people would just put the tech oligarchy and some AI devs in front of a Nuremberg-style trial, ban the use of LLMs altogether, force AI companies to delete any models that made without consent, try to come up with an international agreement on a global AI ban, etc.
    • Pro-AI extremists are a lot worse in actuality, than just some third world guy posting AI slop as a side hustle or engagement bait, to get ad revenue money. The DOGE boys' excuse for the USAID massacre and the deregulation is that any problem, including 600 000 (!) people dying from USAID funds getting pulled, is that AI deregulation will lead to artificial superintelligence, which will lead to a quadtillion human being living in the solar system in a few centuries. TESCREAL is a fucking cult, that would be too extreme for Shin Megami Tensei, let alone the real world.
    • "Moderate usage" or "rational adaptation" is often a slippery slope. I've seen way too many devs trying to use it as a "tool", only to implement things on AI hallucinated specs and similar shenanigans, with many falling down the rabbit hole of loop engineering and vibe coding, all while claiming the decreased code quality worth the "productivity gains". Said "productivity gains" don't last for too long though.
    • The "I want more ethical AI" crowd are usually hypocrites IMHO. At best, they secretly run their own model. At worst, they're the same as your average AI bro with mild AI psychosis, except usually more leftist and more secretive about their AI usage. I heard that some devs who previously had issues with attributing open source code are those most likely to be in this group, though I cannot confirm due to lack of a solid evidence.
    • Your average "can you please not post AI slop?" people are the real centrists.
    • You're right if you refuse to use AI, you're right to not want to engage with AI slop, even if your aunt disagrees.
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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

    I don’t get it how do artists get captured by the Shortcut Machine like this?

    True, maybe we need to police artists more to ensure moral purity and alignment with political correct ideology. Make them delete their "work" line by line, file by file /s

    PS: Reminds me of this: https://lemmy.world/post/51139260 . The age of pluralism is definitely coming to a middle.

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    [–] 14 points 2 months ago

    Good. Make another example of them. Slop will not be tolerated and will torpedo your 'studio' instantly.

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