A brief recap: a few weeks ago I’d taken the $155,000 Range Rover I was testing out to run some errands with my wife in Plymouth, Minnesota. I was backing out of a parking space in front of my local Kohl’s when four cop cars came screaming up and “initiated a box and pin on the vehicle,” as the police report says. Hands on their guns, the officers ordered us out of the vehicle, patted us down, and eventually told us the Range Rover’s license plate—New Jersey 34 10 DTM—was stolen, they suspected the vehicle itself was stolen too, and they’d used Flock cameras to track me down over the last two days.

The scenario involving my wife and I is just one of many like it. Thomas noted that the system is 99% accurate today, but it’s performing 20 billion reads a month. That 1% error rate, of which I was a part of in June, makes for two hundred million misreads a month.

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[–] 203 points 3 months ago (68 children)

A- USA doesn't have standardised plates? Not even 1 per state, but 8000?!
2- Fuck mass survalance, fuck armed cops, fuck Flock.

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  • [–] 58 points 3 months ago* (2 children)

    A - The USA is 50 countries in a trench coat

    2 - Correct

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  • [–] 72 points 3 months ago (58 children)

    Each state has different levels of customization with different background images. I like plate customization, its a form of self expression.

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  • [–] 41 points 3 months ago (16 children)

    Customized images, yes. Overlapping alphanumeric codes (two vehicles with the same sequence?) NO. Maybe it was necessary in the 1960s, but it is long since past time for issuance of alpha-numeric unique identifiers to become... unique throughout the states.

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  • [–] 9 points 3 months ago* (15 children)

    How many digits to we need for 297,500,000 plates (as of 2026).

    Plus we should probably include Canada and Mexico, since they have the same sized plates and cross the borders regularly.

    Canada also has custom plates and different designs in each province too.

    Also unless I’m mistaken, when Britain was in the EU, it didn’t use standardized plates like the rest of the member states, right?

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  • [–] 18 points 3 months ago* (6 children)

    6 characters (A-Z 0-9) gives you 2,176,782,336 combinations.

    Even if you take out some confusing combos like O0, 1I, 5S, 8B ... 6 characters of 31 different kinds gives you 887,503,681

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  • [–] 4 points 3 months ago (2 children)
  • [–] 10 points 3 months ago

    the formula is number of possible symbols (letters, numbers) S to the power of the number of characters on the plate N, or S^N, so if you add one more character out of 31 possible symbols, then you multiply by (another) 31 available combinations.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago (2 children)

    The number drops even more when offensive words or phrases are removed. Nobody's getting a license plate that reads P00 A55 or a bad word for black people.

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  • [–] 28 points 3 months ago (5 children)

    There are no standard plates in the EU. The only matching thing is the country code on the left side.

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  • [–] 18 points 3 months ago (4 children)

    That’s a lot closer to standardized than the Canada or the US.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago* (1 child)

    Well, that's true.

    But one fun quirk is that (at least here in Finland) the EU plate isn't mandatory, you can get a clean one with no country code but then if you leave the country you are required to indicate your country of origin with a bumper sticker. So the automated license plate reader might need to be able to figure out from what country this is, and often that sticker will be stuck to the corner of the rear window.

    Also a reminder - there will be no sticker on the front :)

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  • [–] 21 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    You have bigger problems if you're relying on a custom license plate to express a personality...

    Risk isn't worth "reward', especially when you hear things like certain backwards states trying to mandate a default " in god we trust" of other biblical theme so that people then need to opt out intentionally, in turn their vehicles becoming potential targets for zealots and cops to harass.

    Just mandate national design with black text on white background

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  • [–] 6 points 3 months ago

    But in 1928, the secretary of state in Idaho had an epiphany. He realized that the license plate was the perfect place to advertise a home-grown product, and that product was… a potato.

    As a Jehovah’s Witness, Maynard actually believed that God-given life was more important than freedom and he didn’t appreciate the government telling him what to die over. So Maynard covered the slogan up with some tape…

    Covering up the slogan was a violation of state law…Finally, his consistent refusal to pay them landed him in court. The judge ended up putting him in jail for fifteen days, “And so if you don’t want to live free or die, you go to jail in New Hampshire,” says Maynard.

    The state court agreed but unfortunately for Maynard, Meldrim “Live-free-or-die” Thomson, had become governor by then, and he appealed the case all the way to the Supreme Court…[They] ultimately ended up siding with Maynard. “The First Amendment protects “you against government censorship. But the free speech clause also protects your right not to speak,” says Caroline Mala Corbin, a First Amendment scholar at the University of Miami, “So it protects you against the government, forcing you to say an ideological message that you disagree with. And that was what the problem was here.”

    The story goes on to talk about specialty plates and designs with confederate flags.

    https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/434-artistic-license/

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  • [–] 20 points 3 months ago (8 children)

    Plates should be standardized. Bumper stickers and other things can be used for personalization.

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  • [–] -3 points 3 months ago (7 children)
  • [–] 30 points 3 months ago (3 children)
  • [+] -19 points 3 months ago* (2 children)

    Oh, well you’re nobody. They don’t need to be standardized and will remain as they are lol.

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  • [–] 12 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    Not the guy you replied to, but plates have a purpose that are not necessarily compatible with Art and personalization. Not defending a broken society, just pointing it out.

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  • [+] -39 points 3 months ago (29 children)

    That's like embellishing a prison camp number with a fun design. That's not self-expression that's morbid.

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  • [–] 53 points 3 months ago (27 children)
    1. What the actual fuck is this comparison? I'm extremely anti-car, and even I'm wondering what has to be wrong with you.

    2. Incidentally got a chuckle out of me that you're saying this about what's often effectively a social green-beard (e.g. plates for sports teams, hobbies, causes, etc.).

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  • [+] -8 points 3 months ago* (26 children)

    Look, I'm not saying we shouldn't be registering cars I'm just saying a licence plate is intended as a vehicle tracking ID. That's the whole point. I always considered licence plate customization at best tacky. If I want to add some decals and bumper stickers and such, I'm not going to put it on a state issued ID tag.

    For the record, I think customized graphics on your credit/debit cards, check designs, etc. is just as morbid. You don't "own" these things, they're not part of your identity, and letting them trick your brain into pretending that they belong to you and are an extension of your "self" by adding fancy designs is kind of gross. They are symbols that reference you, they are not a part of you.

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  • [–] 20 points 3 months ago* (14 children)

    I'm just saying a licence plate is intended as a vehicle tracking ID

    Everyone here and everyone who gets them knows and understands that.

    I'm not saying we shouldn't be registering cars

    I didn't say or even imply you were, and the fact you clarified that anyway is bizarre – because it'd be completely batshit.

    letting them trick your brain into pretending that they belong to you and are an extension of your "self" by adding fancy designs is kind of gross.

    Brother, my god, it is a fucking identifier plate on your car; no one's getting "tricked", and I don't know if you can believe this, but people can enjoy making objects into extensions of themselves without becoming slaves to The Man – if you can apprehend that someone in Kentucky who pays $25/year or some shit to signal that they're into amateur radio isn't offering up their soul in a plate-shaped vessel on the altar of Rebecca Goodman.

    Even if you want to bring ALPRs into this, custom plates existed long, long before we had the technology to turn plates into mass-surveillance tools.

    This is so goddamn snobby that it's painful.

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  • [–] -4 points 3 months ago (6 children)

    I'm kind of in agreement with him, in that I don't see the point in paying extra to have an ID on my car that tells The Man more about me than I think they need to know, but I don't think it makes me a shill or (much of) a sucker if I get them. Everyone, including me, makes less than ideal choices. This poor choice is less egregious than most.

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  • [–] 8 points 3 months ago (5 children)

    I don't see the point in paying extra to have an ID on my car that tells The Man more about me than I think they need to know

    Literally what on Earth are you doing to your license plate that tells The Man more about you in a way that realistically matters? You don't need your Ashley Madison credentials to create a custom plate.

    If you're worried about dragnet surveillance, I guess it'll help them when they divide the prison camps by baseball team. If you're worried about automated surveillance like by ALPRs then, uh, pretty sure the model whose literal entire purpose is to create its own features for classification will find abundant other ways to uniquely fingerprint and extract actual, pertinent information about you. And if you're worried about targeted surveillance by humans scrutinizing you down to what your custom plate says about you, then god help you, and viva México.

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  • [–] -5 points 3 months ago (4 children)

    So, you walk into a government agency, and they say, "Thanks for providing this required information about yourself. You can provide more information about yourself to us and everyone you pass while driving your vehicle, for a fee. Remember, the more mainstream your opinion, the more it will cost." Why would anyone say yes to that proposal? And why would you get up in arms about someone saying they think that's ridiculous but generally pretty harmless?

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  • [–] 8 points 3 months ago* (3 children)

    If you think the magnitude of information gained is even worth considering for either (or frankly any) party, you're grossly misunderstanding the scale of the surveillance state or just have really terrible ideas for custom plates. Your plate is inherently already a 100% unique identifier; if you're worried enough that like six characters of custom text or a chosen design will in any way further government or corporate surveillance, then – and I say this as someone who frequents privacy communities, hates defeatism, and thinks people (myself included) need better privacy hygiene – have fun pissing on a forest fire.

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  • [–] -5 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    You say you're into privacy communities, but you sound like someone who pays to get more ads. As for reading comprehension, what exactly does pretty harmless mean to you?

    My first thought when reading your previous reply is that you're someone who likes to argue for the sake of arguing. This reply has reinforced that opinion.

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  • [–] 8 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

    My first thought when reading your previous reply is that you’re someone who likes to argue for the sake of arguing.

    Bbbbbbbbbbb wrote: "I like plate customization, its a form of self expression."

    GreenBeard responded to this totally innocuous, non-argumentative statement with: "That’s like embellishing a prison camp number with a fun design. That’s not self-expression that’s morbid." Then went on to call the practice "gross" and "tacky" and the people who get custom plates under a "sad illusion" and "letting themselves be tricked".

    Again, in response to just an extremely benign and normal statement: "I like plate customization, its a form of self expression."

    Truly I'm the one who likes arguing for the sake of an argument here – not the person who started and perpetuated this abject, comically combative nonsense.

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  • [–] -3 points 3 months ago

    My first thought when reading your previous reply is that you’re someone who likes to argue for the sake of arguing.

    I agree with you, bc that was also the Impression I got. A very emotional/aggressive and unnecessary response/thread from tt27..

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  • [+] -7 points 3 months ago (6 children)

    I'm not really concerned what your opinion of me is. You think it's snobby to not waste money on a stylized government ID? Because that makes sense. If you want to plaster your car in your favourite things, go for it. Live your best life. If you want to paint your car like Lisa Frank exploded in a mist of glitter on it, I'm totally down. But the plate, that's not ever an extension of you. It isn't yours and it never was, and the illusion that it is, is kind of sad. But clearly, my opinion isn't a popular one, so I'll leave off. We're clearly not going to agree on this.

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  • [–] 10 points 3 months ago* (5 children)

    You think it's snobby to not waste money on a stylized government ID?

    If you could read, you'd know I think that it's fine one way or another and that what's snobby is your obnoxious attitude toward people who do get one. The difference between you and I is that I see it as a waste of money for me and leave it at that because I don't pretend to be superior and enlightened when my level of insight that the unwashed masses surely lack is "um, didn't you know that license plates are tracking IDs?? by the government??? Fucking idiot, Sandra, with your stupid fucking 'museums are for everyone' plate with Snoopy on it."

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  • [+] -6 points 3 months ago (4 children)

    Got it. You resent other people having values you don't share.

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  • [–] 8 points 3 months ago (3 children)

    You resent other people having values you don’t share.

    As you sit here saying those who have values you don't share are participating in something "gross", under a "sad illusion", and "letting themselves be tricked" into doing something that's "morbid", "tacky at best", and akin to "embellishing their prison camp number". lmao okay

    So are you a Mercator or a Robinson kind of guy?

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  • [+] -6 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    So would you rather I assume they just don't know any better, that they lack agency and enough insight to recognize that calling it "self-expression" is internalizing an imposed identity? Or are you going to care-troll that I'm calling them stupid and helpless then?

    Yes, I think most people get that's all it is, and they do it anyway. I think the impulse to ignore external imposition is pretty deeply conditioned in people and I think that's unfortunate. Do I think it's their fault, not entirely, but do I also think they have a choice in it, I certainly do. Even when it's a matter of practical necessity, we should always be aware of identity imposed externally, because it can and often is used against you. I do think that offering customized plates is kind of gross because it's a way of dulling that awareness, and I think it's morbid that people have been conditioned to accept it, even fully cognizant of what it represents.

    And you can keep your red herring, I'm not interested.

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  • [–] 3 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    You're about the whole "fake choice" people get in society thing?

    I understand that, but I think you went overboard a little 😅

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago (1 child)

    Sort of, but this is slightly different. It's an active obfuscation of an externally imposed identity element. A justifiable one in this case, but an external imposition in the first place, and external identity elements should always be held at arm's length because they tend to get abused.

    Incorporating it into your material identity dulls your awareness of the fact this representation of you, isn't "you", and how it's used isn't up to you. Creating an attachment to it has risks, risks you are inclined to ignore if mentally it's just another personalized bumper sticker in your perception.

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  • [–] 3 points 3 months ago

    Guess it's just human nature, decorating our prisons, like we dress up knowing our bodies are our prisons too.

    I mean you can see the good part in it, IMO, which is human creativity.

    Freedom is terrifying, so people prefer being left with few premade choices.I don't think that in itself is always bad, but we should always think of what those choices are, and why.

    Like numberplates on cars seems justifiable just because otherwise there would be chaos. Where I grew up every human had a number (and still do), where I live now they don't because of ww2 (rounding up of people was so simple when everyone was in a list), so it's walking on a razor's edge at all time I guess.

    So continue questioning, but don't let your life get consumed by it I guess.

    Cheers from Europe!

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago

    Nike's new IrisNet profit-sharing plan nicely puts a stylish glow on my shoe logos when the fashionably discreet LaceCam notices the right eyes noticing my shoes, and at this rate I will pay the shoes off in 54 months!

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago (3 children)

    Lol where do you draw the line here?

    You might as well argue that it's tacky to wear clothing with colors and designs, like a specific genre of music, like certain genres of movies, like certain jokes, food, hairstyles, etc. All of these things are 'symbols' that reference you.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago (2 children)

    False equivalence. Expressing yourself through material means, like art, music, heck, even bumper stickers, that's perfectly reasonable. You don't "own" that license plate. It's not yours, its an identity being externally pushed on you. They let you customize it somewhat, to make it feel like something you're choosing to do. You're not choosing it. It's not an expression of the self, it's an identity externally imposed, and that's a meaningful distinction, even if you understand and agree with why it's being imposed.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago (1 child)

    But you don't own the art you watch/listen to. You don't own the message on the bumper sticker. There is no difference.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago

    That's a very legalistic interpretation of art. From a psychosocial perspective, all art is participatory. Each token is more than simply a construction of the artist. Who and how it's shared with and interacted with is an active participant in creating its meaning. The act of choosing is in itself an internalizing behavior. There does remain some externalized imposition, but as an act of voluntary community building, not a function of practical necessity in the service of ends not entirely your own; and importantly if the terms of that voluntary association change you can remove the symbol.

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  • [–] 6 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    As bbbbbbbbbbb said, every state not only has their own plates, but multiple plate designs. Some states, the variations will be completely different colors and number length. Absolutely no consistency.

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  • [–] 4 points 3 months ago

    Many states also don't (usually) require old plates to be turned in when designs change. My state's gone through two design changes since I started driving in 2010 and I still have my original plates. I've seen people driving with plates from the 80s.

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  • [–] 126 points 3 months ago

    👉 The system is working exactly as intended and must be destroyed

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  • [–] 177 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    Fascists don't particularly care about false positives. The cameras are operating as intended.

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  • [–] 36 points 3 months ago

    Absolutely this, and why they’re fine with executing innocent people on death row, cops killing people who were running away or complying and not a threat, or some DA imprisoning someone for decades on crappy evidence only to be found innocent after half their life is gone.

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  • [–] 118 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    Yes, the Flock system is working correctly, as a tool for police to stalk and harass innocent people.

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  • [–] 51 points 3 months ago

    They always claim everything they do is correct and working. To admit otherwise means opening the department up to a lawsuit they may actually lose their jobs over.

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  • [–] 43 points 3 months ago

    It is working perfectly as intended. It is intended to facilitate fascist authority, siphon wealth from municipalities, and help make cops feel tough so they can more efficiently lord over their communities.

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  • [–] 33 points 3 months ago

    Well, at least we know this can only happen 98 times, by mistake.

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  • [–] 31 points 3 months ago

    For comparison, if you were hosting some kind of platform or service that only has a 99% uptime, you'd have to pay people to use it.

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  • [–] 14 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    That's around 2/3rds of the entire US population

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  • [–] 8 points 3 months ago

    In a month each person who drives regularly will be read hundreds of times in cities. Rural areas will be fewer times, but it is likely that on average a car is read at least a dozen or more times in a month across the US and wherever else they might be.

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  • [–] 26 points 3 months ago

    Lucky he’s white.

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  • [–] 22 points 3 months ago* (1 child)

    Of course. Flock always works correctly, even when it causes innocent people to get harmed.

    Its a spying tool first and foremost, the crime solving part is just a half-arsed afterthought justification.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago

    It makes me wonder if politicians, celebrities, etc. have their plate numbers already entered into Flock as a whitelist of people not to pull over.

    The story makes it pretty clear that the cops are, as usual, not doing any independent thinking. The system says to pull that car over, so they do what the system wants. They don't double-check to see if what the system is telling them to do is reasonable. If someone fat-fingers some data entry and the plate for the governor of California gets added to the system, the cops might charge up and box him in and jump out with their guns drawn. That might result in someone with actual power getting mad about Flock. So, maybe they prevent that by pre-loading the system with a whitelist of plates that are assumed to be in the clear.

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  • [–] 10 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    I like license plates as I think some degree of accountability is important when you are controlling a highly deadly machine. If you make moves that endanger people they should have a way to identify you. I've always felt those tinted plate covers were the sign of being a real asshole driver. Now I think if there is anyway to block your plate from flock cameras you should try to do it. Has any coating been effective for this?

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  • [–] 18 points 3 months ago

    Doesn't matter, they don't rely on just the plates. They match on make/model, color, condition (specific dents, scratches, damage, repairs, etc), bumper stickers, face matching on the driver and/or passengers, sound, bluetooth and/or radio IDs, and more.

    You can make things that fool it, Benn Jordan demonstrates doing this with something that is hard to even notice as a human. But all that's going to do is draw extra attention to you. In a surveillance state anyone trying to maintain privacy is clearly guilty after all.

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  • [–] 62 points 3 months ago (5 children)

    False positives are your problem, not the cops. You should try not being unlucky next time.
    Also - I'm so sorry you had to go through that, fuck flock.

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  • [–] 31 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    Lol no, cops are definitely part of the problem. This reaction over fake plates is not sane

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  • [–] 8 points 3 months ago
    [–] 5 points 3 months ago

    Oh I live in MN too very close to Plymouth this stinks. MN cops can be so mean

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  • [–] 7 points 3 months ago (3 children)

    I wonder how many people that are "gangstalked" are really being gangstalked.

    I don't understand why people put so much faith in their government.

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  • [–] 11 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    Who? At this point, aside from Wacko fanatics who suck orange cock, who has so much faith in their government?

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  • [–] 12 points 3 months ago

    fuck flock!

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago

    When the wrong is not defined...yea I guess everything is right...

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