What does this have to do with atheists?
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This just puts the image in my head of a religious person seeing someone having sex with a dead deer on the side of the road and their first reaction being "Oh my god he's sinning!" and not "Why the fuck is that freak fucking a dead deer on the side of the road"
The difference between those thoughts is sort of vague.
Is it sinning? Is there a specific prohibition in the Bible about dead animals?
The Bible includes passages that condone murdering a cheating wife, so maybe don't use that as your yardstick.
In a sense, yes.
Leviticus 5:2 condones touching a dead creature:
"‘Or if a person touches any unclean thing, whether it is the carcass of an unclean beast, or the carcass of unclean livestock, or the carcass of unclean creeping things, and he is unaware of it, he also shall be unclean and guilty."
Relevant note that doesn't include deer
Leviticus 11:29-31 states that "creeping" creatures result in uncleanliness, but only until evening, so unless "evening" is an abstract term meaning "nearing the end of your life", you're only gross until tomorrow:
"‘These also shall be unclean to you among the creeping things that creep on the earth: the mole, the mouse, and the large lizard after its kind; the gecko, the monitor lizard, the sand reptile, the sand lizard, and the chameleon. These are unclean to you among all that creep. Whoever touches them when they are dead shall be unclean until evening."
And the passages that mention sex with a creature, regardless of a heartbeat, include Leviticus 18:23. And as a bonus, their god is said to be talking to Moses with the intention of passing the message to all Israelites, it also slanders men being gay in the previous line (but as this was also to be delivered to women, I guess this implies rather that sexual acts suitable for a woman partner should never be done with a male partner.) :
"22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination. 23 Nor shall you mate with any animal, to defile yourself with it. Nor shall any woman stand before an animal to mate with it. It is perversion."
It seems to say you would be unclean to touch a dead animal. That means you need to take a bath and wait until evening to be clean again. No harm, no foul.
And Christians can always pull out their get out of jail card, "Jesus fulfilled the law so OT rules don't apply."
So I think only true Christians could morally have sex with a dead deer.
It seems to say you would be unclean to touch a dead animal. That means you need to take a bath and wait until evening to be clean again.
I think this is before the invention of soap, so being ritually unclean meant that other people aren't allowed to touch you for a certain number of days (and then you need to offer a sacrifice in the temple or something), or in some cases like touching a leper, the priest has to examine you at the end of the unclean period to declare you clean.
Note that 18:22 is heavily debated because its been translated as male, but more nuanced translations decribe same-sex rape, not necessarily homosexuality as whole.
https://blog.smu.edu/ot8317/2019/04/11/lost-in-translation-alternative-meaning-in-leviticus-1822/
It's heavily disputed whether those translations are more accurate rather than just reading nuance where none exists. Some translations also interpret it as specifically about pedophilia, but again, they may or may not be more accurate than simply translating it as all M/M sex.
The very fact of the whole text being:
- In my skeptical opinion, likely invented by ramblings of a nutter, and the book was written as an attempt to write history by those who listened to the town crazy;
- (Western editions) Translated multiple times - (roughly) Hebrew 'Torah' (the 'Nevi'im' and 'Ketuvim' came later) to Greek 'Septuagint' then to Old Latin 'Vetus Latina', then revised using the 'Septuagint' and translated directly from the 'Hebraica Veritas' to make the 'Vulgate', and into modern languages (true English, French, and German originally) 'Bible' by multiple groups;
- As well as many translators there are countless individuals who either evangelise or simply read for themselves, each with their own unique interpretation of every verse;
makes me suspect that every single translation has some error, and because I cannot read Hebrew I'll never truly know. Even what used to be the most trusted digital translator, Google Translate, now uses AI to interpret and adjust the wording, making the translate service more useless than it already was. FWIW, whenever I need to consult the English Bible I prefer the King James Version (1769 revision, not the NKJV), not only because I love the language style, and that it is in a language I can read, but it is translated into English from Hebrew (Old Testament), Latin (Apocrypha) and Greek (New Testament), and in my opinion if there are deviations from the Hebrew 'Masoretic Text', the KJV will have less errors than others.
A good read of the women involved in one translation: Paula and the Latin Vulgate
I don't know. Much like most modern day Christians I haven't actually read it
Morally wrong? No. Disgusting and disrespectful? Absolutely.
Morally wrong? No.
Is it not? I'm not religious, but I still find it morally wrong to have sex with something that didn't consent to it.
Whether the animal is alive or dead, it isn't able to consent. And since the animal cannot consent, it is therefore rape, making it morally wrong.
I cannot fucking believe I'm going to participate here...
... but when you're talking to someone about organ donation, you'd typically say something like "You can't take them with you. That isn't you anymore. You're dead. It's just meat now."
... and that's as much as I'm going to say because gross
But this is actually why we decide whether or not we participate in postmortem organ donation while we're alive - we make the conscious decision ahead of time. Which is still then consistent with the consent argument
So then if I consent to someone fucking my corpse after I'm gone, it becomes morally OK for them to do it.
Well yea I guess if I go tell shawty she can ride my hog after I get the death erection and she does it I can't really be mad at her can I
If someone writes in their will that their dick shall be made into a dildo so that their partner can keep having sex with them, they can do that. I find it gross, but not immoral.
With regard to the corpse, maybe.
There's possibly a virtue ethics argument against the person doing it? Like, it's a little weird that they want to, right?
Weird from a cultural perspective where any sort of non-medical interference with a corpse is frowned upon, so we're trained from a very young age to find any of that stuff icky/morbid. Other cultures may not have that same aversion.
Kinda in the same vein as we in North America have a very conservative opinion on being naked in public where other cultures couldn't care less.
I'm already a moral relativist.
What I'm asking is if a person who wants to and does have sex with corpses, knowing that this is socially profane and must be kept secret, is this a trustable person?
Also, respect for the dead often involves rituals that are non-medical. I think disease obviously played a part in how these rituals were formed, but I don't think that disease is the primary reason people care.
A dildo also isn't able to consent. A carrot isn't able to consent and is more alive than the roadkill (since it can still reproduce). Ability to consent is something we require from conscious beings, but we generally don't require it from objects, and corpses blur the line.
I definitely get the "ick" feeling from necrophilia, so my knee-jerk reaction is to consider it immoral, but it isn't actually that easy to come up with a consistent justification for that condemnation.
A dildo also isn't able to consent. A carrot isn't able to consent and is more alive than the roadkill (since it can still reproduce).
A dildo was never alive, and a carrot is not a sentient creature.
Ability to consent is something we require from conscious beings, but we generally don't require it from objects, and corpses blur the line.
Why does a corpse blur the line? Or is this DnD logic and a corpse is just an object? A corpse should be treated like the person it was, so it still needs consent otherwise you're still raping it.
but it isn't actually that easy to come up with a consistent justification for that condemnation.
It absolutely is: a sentient (not even sapient, but sentient) being's bodily autonomy is inviolable without their consent.
Extending your logic to make my point, if a corpse is blurring the line, what about brain dead coma patients, especially ones that are infertile? Are they ok to rape? They're alive and can't reproduce, so what's the difference, right?
A corpse is not a sentient creature. Former sentience is not the same as sentience.
A corpse should be treated like the person it was, so it still needs consent otherwise you're still raping it.
That's your opinion, and it's completely valid, but what's your justification for why someone else should agree?
Extending your logic to make my point, if a corpse is blurring the line, what about brain dead coma patients, especially ones that are infertile? Are they ok to rape? They're alive and can't reproduce, so what's the difference, right?
Well, they're alive, for one. Corpses by definition are not. And what we think of as "brain-dead" is the long-term and potentially permanent loss of consciousness and therefore sapience, but sentience is a bit harder to disprove.
Your standard seems to be "current or former sentient beings," which is consistent, but you haven't given a justification for the "or former" part. Current sentient beings experience suffering, so that's a pretty good reason, but corpses don't.
but I still find it morally wrong to have sex with something that didn’t consent to it.
That makes it immoral in your framework. But you can simply construct one that doesn't require consent, then it wouldn't be wrong.
Sure, but I can also construct a moral framework in which it's ok for me to murder anyone I don't like because my not-mental-illness-sky-daddy said so.
Moral relativism is bullshit and can be used to justify anything.
What if it's a plant instead? It once was alive, and is incapable of consent. Is it morally wrong to make a dildo out of wood? What about bone?
Also it's likely to make you sick and then you become a liability to your community = immoral.
The idea that you're morally obligated to maximize your own health to minimize your burden on society usually doesn't stand up well to follow up questions.
Realistically, the societal health costs of being obese would be statistically higher than fucking roadkill. I think most people would find themselves pausing before suggesting to an obese person that thier obesity is more morally problematic than fucking roadkill.
There is something to health of an individual in a society and morality, it's pretty hard for me to ignore that intuition. I just don't know a real formulation which doesn't introduce more issues to a system of morality than it resolves? Curious if anyone had one.
When I read liability, my instinct was contagion. There is absolutely a moral obligation to minimize contagion—we did a whole covid-lockdown thing about it.
Being obese is too self-contained an issue, if it is an issue, I think. The only one suffering, if they are suffering, would be the obese person, and the only externalization of that would be financial costs that are too abstract for people to take personally.
I have the great privilege of living in a society with socialized Healthcare, so these questions do come up from time to time.
The lifetime Healthcare costs for people who have conditions which can be mitigated by lifestyle choices is a real thing. Smoking, being an obvious example much less touchy than obesity. Even if I'm extremely comfortable with the slice of my taxes that go to Healthcare... wouldn't it be great if we got to spend less on smoking-related issues, and could instead buy more MRI machines. Merely pay for more doctors? Nurses? Expand the treatments we can even offer?
Just because they're abstract, doesn't make it any less of a question of morality. I don't see any moral difference between the contaigen and smoking from the perspective of the personal responsibility of maintaining the overall health of your society. One is just accepted by society.
I don't see any moral difference between the contaigen and smoking
I don't understand what you mean.
Smoking isn't contagious. Smoking might be socially contagious, but that's a different kind. Smoking and the resulting cancer would be the kind of disease that people "choose" to take on, which is different from being accosted by influenza.
You might be thinking about this on a societal level? I meant interpersonally. Showing up to an event while sick and without a mask is a little fucked up. And covid touches on the societal, but my chief moral complaint is really with people who were neglectful of the community effort to minimize harm during a pandemic, who would choose possibly killing somebody's grandma so that they could go to the beach. I'm not really thinking about... taxes.
Whether it is ethical for people to "overuse" the medical services their society provides I think depends ultimately on what it is fair to ask people to do, and what the actual consequences of not doing them are.
Like, is it immoral to get a dildo stuck up your arse? Because you're wasting a doctor's time. I feel like we might be touching on such austere efficiencies that we're beginning to lose sight of what a doctor is for.
Yeah, that's basically it.
Harm is harm. If my recklessness gives you covid, that's harm. I harmed you. If my wanton habits strain the Healthcare system such that they're expending money on my emphasima instead of more MRIs, and the lack of MRIs mean the diagnostic delays kept you from finding a brain tumor before it became inoperable, that's harm too. I harmed you.
It's comfortable to hide behind layers of abstraction. That's just morality laundering.
If I give you covid, and you die, that's bad.
If I give you covid, and you spread it to your grandma and she dies, that's bad.
If I give you covid, and you give someone else covid, and THEY give it to THIER grandma and she dies, that's bad.
And if I give... etc etc etc etc. How far down this chain do I gotta go before you say "ah ok, no morality issue there"?
Does it matter if you expose people but none actually get it? Does it matter if people get it, but as a result of the chain reaction nobody dies?
Probably not, right? The irresponsibility of the act has already established that it was wrong, regardless of the dilution along a chain and regardless of the actual outcome. You don't KNOW what will happen, you just have statistical models.
You might never know WHICH bean made you fart. It doesn't matter. The collective effect produced a result.
And what if spending money on the MRI for the guy with the brain tumor delays a study on Alzheimer's disease? And what if that Alzheimer's study took money that could have been used to further develop gene therapy?
I don't really understand the point of this.
If a guy has a dildo stuck up his arse, he needs help. ...There's no follow up point, he just needs help.
I would find a medical industry that harbors contempt for the indignity of having to help this guy... pathetic. Like, it's silly.
[edit] Let me amend one thing, 'cause I reread the original comment.
I think that neglectfully spreading an illness is more morally objectionable than recklessly contracting one. A known one, anyway. Covid is somewhat special because disease vectors and not actually knowing if you had it or how it spread was more on people's minds.
Does this touch on anything you're saying?
Kinda, I think we're in the same zone, but I feel you're kinda glancing off some important points, and also bringing in unrelated concepts.
What if the money spent on the mri could have been spent on alzheimers?
Well, if at the time it was reasonable to expect that the investment in MRIs was the most effective thing to do for society that's fine. That's just a choice made with reasonable expectations of a positive outcome that ultimately turned out to be suboptimal. It isn't reasonable to expect that smoking won't statistically be detrimental to your health. It's a self-inflicted wound, done knowing this was a likly outcome. This is the critical difference there.
Now, as for unrelated topics, you've muddled two distinct ideas: "moral evaluation of actions", and "evaluation of worthiness to recieve care".
If you need an ER doctor to pull a dildo out of your ass, but didn't reasonably expect to demand society to end up having to pay for it, then I see no moral issue, just like if someone forgets thier hair straightener on and thier house lights on fire and the firefighters risk thier lives to rescue you.
If you fully expected to require an ER doctor beforehand, yah, morality issue there. If you light your own house on fire on purpose because you wanted to get carried down a ladder, same deal.
Doesn't mean you don't deserve to be helped. Doesn't imply that you must not, may, or are obligated to feel contempt or whatever. Evaluating the STATE of a moral agent RESPONDING to a moral transgression of another is several steps removed from the ideas of the morality of self-harm in a social collective with finite support resources.
Anyways, long story short... I don't mean to say that the two cases are morally identical. They're both actions that needlessly risk degrading the overall health of your society. I think if you want to frame ONE as a moral issue, they BOTH are.
So, to my original point... I don't know if the public health angle for the moral evaluation is a great one here. I think it's hard to build a consistent and reliable moral model around.
The only reason that I keep bringing up worthiness to receive care is to reaffirm that idea that the hospital is a safety net. That is the only way I think about it. I'm not looking for efficiencies. Its efficiencies do not affect my moral calculus.
If there were enough smokers that the hospital had to triage the issue to focus on some guy's brain tumor, that's fine. That's a budgeting issue. I would also choose the nicer of two people if both were hanging off either end of a bridge.
Would it be nice to spend obesity money on something else? Sure. It can't be, though. It's hard to see obesity and cost as a moral issue when I don't actually view the obese, nor the smoker, nor the drug addict, nor the suicidal, nor the adrenaline junkie, nor the MMA fighter, nor the venomous snake guy as burdens. Every one of these people "should know" that they will cost the medical industry money; they might be the ones to "kill" a guy with a brain tumor. I'm not bothered by this because these are the very people the medical industry is built to serve. It exists for them.
A medical industry that cannot accomodate obesity is one that is failing its own constituents. It is failing to serve its purpose. So, becoming obese, and costing the healthcare system money, is immaterial. It doesn't matter.
But, a guy in the supermarket sneezing on people is a burden. Not because he is straining medical services and indirectly murdering in-care patients, but because there are people in the supermarket who now must be burdened with illness.
So this is what my view comes down to:
- If a person gets someone else sick, it is their fault for spreading disease.
- If a 100-capacity hospital is unable to accomodate a 101st person, that is a systemic failure of the hospital, or its backing government.
This view is useful because it means I am socially equipped to punish people for anti-social and irresponsible medical behavior, but also that I remain sympathetic to victims of the tobacco and sugar industries. And that guy with the snake.
It's also not that complicated, because my problem is chiefly with anti-social behavior.
How does this relate to necrophilia?... I don't know. He probably shouldn't do that.
Ok. I think I need to tap out. I don't think we can have the same conversation. And that isn't a judgement or anything about you, or your points, or anything. I think that fundamentally we're just trying to have two similar but distinct conversations.
There are two conversations: one about exploring and establishing a model of moral evaluation of action, and one about how a hospital should be run, dignity, how to organize a society for the betterment of its members, etc etc. They're both great conversations. I'll happily concede that yours is more important.
I keep trying to talk about morality and ethics. To me, it's the much more interesting conversation. It's extremely rare to actually get the opportunity to get into moral philosophy, so even fucking roadkill is great.
It's not that I necessarily disagree with what you're saying. It's just that you're not at all talking about morals and ethics, and each attempt i make to pull you back in is met in failure. Now you're talking about "fault" which is a completely distinct philosophical concept and "failure of the hospital system" which is not really anything.
Yeah hospitals should treat everyone. I have universal Healthcare. How to run a hospital or a health system is a tedious conversation for me. The moral and ethical discussion and examination of right and wrong of actions when a moral agent is part of a social collective with health support and limited resources is interesting.
If we just talked about your thing... we'd basically just be two people roughly agreeing with each other. Which is fine, it's just that isn't really a valuable conversation for either of us. We're already like 99% aligned, there is nothing material to explore or debate. I can't offer you anything in that conversation that you don't already have and vice versa.
I was thinking the same. :p
My last comment was definitely a final word of sorts.
I think we may just be mutually disinterested in the other's conversation. I can sense the thing you're trying to pull me into, and in truth, it would be possible to get me to say "the smoker should stop smoking, as a moral vow to their own betterment, or even to their society's"—I don't like smoking—the problem is just that I find this to be so trivial that it is not worthy of consideration. It isn't pragmatic enough.
I will freely admit that you probably spend more time thinking about the subject matter of moral philosophy—I don't really study it at all, I'm just a strong believer in justice.
But anyway, I appreciate the conversation. I hope it wasn't too obnoxious, haha.
I appreciated it too! You weren't obnoxious, very much the opposite. Curious, patient, thoughtful, well reasoned. It's obvious to me yours IS a mind that I would want to exercise against. And any discussion rooted in pragmatic outcomes would just be agreement. I think we want the world to be the same.
I think you're strawmanning this. I didn't say you are obligated to maximize your health. But that's different from knowingly making yourself ill.
In Sweden we spend a lot of resources treating people for chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD) which is almost exclusively the result of smoking. I think it's wrong to smoke given how much it costs fellow tax payers and how it takes away resources from people who suffer from ailments that are not a result of their actions.
That said, everyone deserves compassion and it's also wrong not to help people who are suffering regardless of the reason. But that's part of what makes it bad to knowingly hurt yourself - you're imposing an obligation onto other people.
As an atheist… the fuck did I just read?
I've shot a lot of animals through the years. "Horny" is now how I would describe the aftermath.
Mostly it's mild annoyance because now I have to clean it, which is a PITA.
Unfortunate typo lol
The workers that process pigs from alive to dead, tend to be abussive to the pigs as well.
And research I have seen before, showed that sadists often get this hig, or tingle.
That is very reminiscent of someone getting their rocks off.
Someone making people cry, might actually be getting off it.
Fucken christ can you imagine this guy answering the Trolley Problem?
"Okay so there's a trolley"
"I fuck the trolley!"
"No, wait- so there's a trolley and it's gonna run over either one person or three-"
"Oh! I wait for it to run everyone over and then I fuck their lifeless corpses!"
Since we brought up the trolley problem why isn't the solution ever to pull the lever back and forth so the rails are in a state where it might derail the trolley entirely?
Kill the goddamn trolley, then fuck the trolley, I guess.
This is similar to Michael's solution to it in The Good Place. If you haven't watched it, it's basically a Moral Philosophy course, with hilarious and beautiful examples. Also with giant, flying cocktail shrimp.
The trolley problem is one of those philosophical questions where you're not supposed to actually think about it in the context of a real world situation. Because the obvious solution to the trolley problem is to yell "look out for the speeding trolley, why you standing still in the road you idiot?"
But generally they don't accept that answer.
I'm convinced that one of the main reasons that people don't really like philosophy is because it's full of got you trick questions like that
Well the trolley problem is at its heart a metaphor for the exercise of power and the responsibility of decision makers. It works fine for that.
However as a meme on the internet its always more of a cute 'got you' question which is why its worth murdering the metaphor. And the trolley too. Metaphorically.
Please don't fuck dead things. You will likely get an infection. No one else wants to put up with your infected silly bad decisions. That's the morality of it.
What if you cooked or pasteurized the roadkill
Is it immoral to fuck a cheeseburger if you still eat it?
Consult several physicians
So ... is that what they mean when they say "use every part of the animal"?
You fuck every hole of that animal, otherwise it's a waste.
And since its already dead you can even make more holes if you got a knife!
It not being immoral being moral or immoral has nothing to do with it being dangerous and disgusting. Asking about morality of fucking roadkill is basic strawman does nothing to checkmate anything.
It's immoral because this is how you get an RFK Jr. It's disgusting for the same reason.
Morality doesn't even matter here. The act is just disgusting. I wouldn't be surprised that such reaction somewhat evolutionary.
That being said I don't think morality even applies here. That's why I originally worded my comment: not immoral. An act can be neither in which case it's pointless to argue any side.
Why are there so many posts about necrophilic bestiality lately
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