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61 comments in c/technology@lemmy.world view that post
[–] 184 points 4 months ago (9 children)

No industry in the history of industry has ever wanted a union.

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  • [–] 90 points 4 months ago (6 children)

    You get people pushing for unions because you deserve unions.

    The tech industry is such a shitshow right now they deserve unions.

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  • [–] 45 points 4 months ago (5 children)

    Hard agree. Every other day a big tech firm will conduct sweeping layoffs of thousands or tens of thousands of employees. These companies are not on the verge of bankrupcy.

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  • [–] 27 points 4 months ago (3 children)

    The other thing is the management and boards of tech companies are incredibly incestuous. Your board is made up the boards of everyone else, they’re all CEOs competing for the same workers.

    You’ve got two or three big investment firms that run the boards of all the major companies, which is anti competitive too. They’ll always push for a product they own to their other companies. They know when their other portfolio companies are doing layoffs, what they’re paying their staff, etc. they even share that with other companies so they can “compete” on salaries.

    For an industry that cargo culted anti cargo culting, the management and execs all cargo cult the same over hiring and mass layoffs.

    Employees get treated like crap now.

    10 years ago I’d work overtime near a big release or when there was an outage. But now you get pinged all the time, there are no boundaries, and there’s an expectation. I’ve had CEOs joke about 9-9-6 work schedules and just openly flaunting how much worse they can make your life.


    The terminal rot starts when your company brings in some ex Amazon or Meta execs (C suite, VP, director, whatever). They push for an almost pure numbers perspective. Judgement and morality be damned, think of the metric first.

    Numbers are what these people know — these people survived the natural selection process at the most hostile and politicking companies you can think of. They’ll do anything to survive and get ahead.

    You cut your support team as a cost centre — support doesn’t scale.

    Then before you know it you’re 4 years into “we just have to push extra hard this year guys, the pace will slow down next year, we’ll get headcount too”. The whole time your performance reviews are getting more frequent and become more invasive — we’re adding an AI use component, make sure to list your growth areas and the impact (metrics!) of everything you’ve shipped. Remember, you’re competing with everyone we could hire, so how did you get better than them this quarter?

    This field used to be good. And no, it wasn’t free lunches that made it good. It was having teams that gave a shit about the customer, it was putting the customer above all else, and it was going home feeling like you worked on something useful and good. You worked hard, you delivered value, and you got paid well.

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  • [–] 14 points 4 months ago

    It was good when it was new and growing and adding to innovation. Once the bean counters figured out the grey beards' magic it got corrupted.

    I grew up with stories of kids my age literally changing the world with new technologies and standards for the tech world. All the way into college, those people were innovating and developing things and having ethical back bones.

    We were a generation of Nikola Teslas, but we didnt see the Edisons that were hiding in the wings.

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  • [–] 4 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    It was having teams that gave a shit about the customer, it was putting the customer above all else, and it was going home feeling like you worked on something useful and good.

    That was because there weren't enough engineers back in the day. Then everybody went into learn to code, visa programs got scaled up, the after covid boom faded and the market became flooded enough to be employer owned.

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  • [–] 7 points 4 months ago

    Yeah, I fucking hate working with people who are those “learn to code for the paycheque” types.

    I mean I get it, it paid well. But I can’t stand working with these people — they have no taste, they have no standards, they make it harder to get good jobs.

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  • [–] 4 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    Depends on how you define "the industry." The tech workers are the ones driving the actual production of goods and services, so it's pretty reasonable to say that the workers are the industry.

    Obviously this headline assumes that CEOs, managers, and investors are "the industry" in question, but I don't necessarily agree.

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  • [–] 71 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    The workers are the industry. The greedy shareholders are the problem.

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  • [–] 48 points 4 months ago

    THE CEOS DONT

    FTFY

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  • [–] 46 points 4 months ago

    In other news: Divers want shark cages; sharks do not

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  • [–] 26 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    Fuck the labour purchasers. The best time to unionise was decades ago, the next best time is right now. Fucking unionise now.

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  • [–] 12 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    And help each other unionize!!!

    Stealth mass unionize the company with a matrix community that helps coordinate everybody

    Also making private unionized competitors to compete with stock non-unionized companies. The former will every time especially by making a better product, and take care of employees and customers

    Let's fucking goooooo!!!!!!

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  • [–] 21 points 4 months ago

    Perhaps the majority of workers in the industry should have better say as opposed to the corpo parasites who want to suck the workforce dry of their net worth

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  • [–] 14 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    Waay to go. UNIONIZE OR PERISH!

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  • [–] 14 points 4 months ago

    A Union would be nice for crap like this. If you make more than $27.63 they don't have to pay you overtime. I had a co worker that was asked to work overtime, like 13 years ago, and his contractor wasn't going to pay him overtime.

    https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/fact-sheets/17a-overtime

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  • [–] 11 points 4 months ago

    Tech has changed and I am glad people are starting to realize it too.

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  • [–] 10 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    It's kind of dumb to say IT people want to union but "the industry" doesn't want to.

    Guess "who" is the industry? Yeah, you are right, it's the IT people...

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  • [–] 9 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    I don't know if it's just where I live but a lot of IT workers tend to be right leaning libertarians and want the "freedom" of being able to "negotiate on their terms."

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  • [–] 16 points 4 months ago (5 children)

    I have always found it odd that tech/IT is not more unionized and supervised by some sort of professional order.

    Doctors, nurses, construction workers, airline pilots etc are all deemed important trades and professions that require some form of professional order to supervise and attest the competency of the labor.

    But for some reason IT is all like "you watched some Youtube videos, got certified by Cisco 15 years ago? All set to configure the security of our healthcare network". I am exaggerating obviously but still... IT is so intertwined in everything some sort of professional order would make sense. And union definitely.

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  • [–] 9 points 4 months ago (3 children)

    Forming new professional bodies takes time, administration, and some kind of governance structure. There aren't a lot of grey-beards that have a bunch of spare time for organizing that. Also, historically, most IT people have seen themselves as "lone wolf frontiersmen" and the rate at which the industry has changed has made any kind of professional certification obsolete very quickly. Legal statutes, the frontiers of medicine, the best practices and techniques for pipe joining and bricklaying, etc. advance very slowly by comparison. Mature industries are much easier to unionize on average. IT is spectacularly immature (in multiple ways) by comparison so it's very hard to create a professional body to represent tech workers.

    Would it be good if we had something like that? Yes. Is it going to be easy to build, hell no. A better model might be the development of independent tech co-operatives, with distributed ownership. If a bunch of senior software engineers with some spare cash to pool creating a bunch of major tech competitors with a co-operative ownership model might actually serve the industry much better than the centralized corporate model we find ourselves subject to, AND provide a basis for developing industry unions, but the closest the industry has to something like that at a large scale is... well Valve, and even that's not a true co-operative.

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  • [–] 4 points 4 months ago

    Professional certification bodies work best in industries with slow pace of change, e.g., civil engineering. In IT it's an obstacle. We'd all be taking exams on COBOL or CORBA, and that would be just more unaccountable gatekeeping.

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  • [–] 3 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    Also other than a few outliers (gaming) IT and development jobs have been pretty good in recent history. There hasn't been much push for change until the circumstances shifted.

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  • [–] 3 points 4 months ago

    Valid point. Thus far, tech workers in general have had a pretty comfortable relationship with the executive class by comparison to other industries. That made it a little to easy to dismiss the risks of being that cozy with them without some kind of protection.

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  • [–] 16 points 4 months ago

    The industry never wants it.

    They should have unionized 20 years ago when it was easy instead of crowing about how useless the humanities were.

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  • [–] 8 points 4 months ago

    My union made my healthcare much better and is the reason behind my raise. Its great!

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  • [–] 8 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    WHAT? I'm shocked. I like dancing with AI and training them to make me homeless

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago*

    I like dancing to businesses that value AI more than employees bankrupting themselves and being replaced with better. Let them be companyless and us owning all our stuff including our homes

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  • [–] 22 points 4 months ago (15 children)

    What I hate about IT is that you have to wear multiple hats. Not unique to IT in the slightest, but IT often has to do weird shit that IMO should not be at all in the job description. Management for some reason is convinced IT should be ok with doing physical labor to move shit around, should be ok to be part time logistics department, should be part time project manager, should be part time janitor, should be like HR, should be sales people, should be public speaker, should be part time QA, should be part time in legal, etc etc etc. It's fucking ridiculous.

    I just want to work with the tech. Get the people out of the fucking way. All I want is the tech ffs. It's in my fucking title.

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  • [–] 20 points 4 months ago* (1 child)

    Omg, this. The part time legal thing is happening to me right now.

    I’m building a small app for a (multimillion dollar) company. Nothing major. I tell the project manager: “hey, you guys need a EULA to publish in the app store. You can use the std apple one or write your own. Tell me what you want to do.”

    This woman comes back to me with: “what do you think we should do?”

    Like b#%^!, I don’t know! Why would you want me to tell you how define the legal relationship between you and your customers?

    After some prodding, she forwards the request to legal and sends back a DRAFT EULA asks: “Can you review this?”

    NO. I cannot review legal documents. I’m horrendously under qualified for that!!!

    /end rant

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  • [–] 12 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    The reason that IT often gets lumped with this stuff is because if you leave it to anybody else they do it wrong especially logistics.

    Everyone except the IT department is now banned from ordering new IT equipment because they'll order a bunch of laptops and then act all surprised when this huge pallet of devices arrives as if they didn't just order one. So then it just sits in the entrance lobby the days on end until someone from IT comes and opens the pallet and takes the laptops upstairs. If they do that with new pens that's fine, no one's going to steal them.

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  • [–] 4 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    The thing is: that's my favorite part about it. I'm sitting at a keyboard for five hours, then I spend a week building shit with my hands-not low level building shit, but still fun, then I'm talking to grandma doing troubleshooting.

    If everything else about it weren't a nightmare shit show where you're the devil if someone else fucks up in a year, I'd be very happy in that kind of career.

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  • [+] 2 points 4 months ago (7 children)
  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago (6 children)

    It's a scam by big cap to exploit you for small pay.

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  • [+] 1 point 4 months ago* (5 children)
  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (4 children)

    No brother, it's not. They scammed you into believing you should be a SME in unrelated things that legit have nothing to do with IT. Stop letting them exploit you.

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  • [+] 1 point 4 months ago (3 children)
  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (2 children)

    Thanks for raising another red flag I hate about my work: single points of failure. lmao

    Value yourself more, brother. The rich CEO don't care about you. I promise.

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  • [–] 7 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    Guess who can be replaced in the long run: a company or a skilled person?

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  • [–] 7 points 4 months ago

    History repeats itself. Railroads, mines, tech workers.

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  • [–] 6 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    I just lost my union a couple months ago, they still exist I guess the government decided they didn't want some of us to have a union going forward.

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  • [–] 6 points 4 months ago (1 child)
  • [–] 6 points 4 months ago

    Living wage, universal basic income. The cure for failing capitalism. If this happened, the entire population can now be included in the system, rather than marginalized and pushed further away.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago

    let them eat AI costs, if they don't want to deal with unions!

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  • 10 comments in c/technology@lemmy.ml view that post
    [–] 25 points 4 months ago

    Of course the industry doesn’t want them to unionize. That’s like half the reason to do it.

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  • [–] 14 points 4 months ago* (4 children)

    I've been in IT for 20 years, I have published books, regularly speak at conferences, been recognized by industry leading companies as one of the top experts in the world, and I've made solutions that have made my company millions of dollars. Yet, I have constant fear of being laid off. I know I'm seriously underpaid, my last pay hike came when I was on a call with one of our internal recruiters and they let it split that a job posting we were working on would X amount, which was about $20k below what I was making.

    The sad thing is I've been looking on and off for the past 2 years. I've had a couple of offers, but they have all tried to low-ball me at the last minute or lied about the job actually being remote. But over the past few weeks, I've seen less and less jobs actually getting posted. A year ago when I would check LinkedIn and there was hundreds of jobs posted daily. Today, one of my searches returned 4 jobs and another returned zero. On top of that 90% of the ones that are posted are from shady recruiters just trying to collect your data.

    All that is to say, yes please! But I haven't actually heard anyone talk about unions.

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  • [–] [S] 13 points 4 months ago (3 children)

    Join Tech Workers Coalition, What We Will or any other tech alt-labor organization in your area. There are plenty of tech workers talking about unions.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (2 children)

    That is depressing seeing the defunct chapters on the Tech Workers Coalition website. Especially in places like Austin and San Jose. What is "What We Will"? I'm not finding anything searching for that.

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  • [–] 9 points 4 months ago*

    We really need IT unions to begin to politicize, eventually radicalize, those guys. It's a glaring deficiency of the left. We need our people at the cloud, servers, AI, service, etc.

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  • [–] 4 points 4 months ago

    There is no industry without workers.

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  • [–] -1 points 4 months ago* (1 child)

    Main solution is building new companies that are private unionized.

    For existing stock companies they would have to be stealth mass unionized.

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  • 10 comments in c/politics@lemmy.world view that post
    [–] 29 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    No industry has ever wanted unions.

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  • [–] 18 points 4 months ago (3 children)

    All companies should live under the constant threat of unionization. Tech is no exception.

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  • [–] 9 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    Nope, Unions should be sector based, not company based or site based.

    I have been part of the white collar union here for 15+ years now, so far I have not really had to use them, but I'll happily pay my dues for the membership.

    Also, sympathy strikes should be legal everywhere.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (1 child)

    But it's functionally the same for an individual company - the fear at least.

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  • [–] 6 points 4 months ago

    Nope, a sector based union have far, far more power and resources than a site or company based union, simply due to having far more members.

    One of my favourite unions stories was when Toys 'R Us wanted to get into the Swedish market.

    First of all, you might not realize it, but Sweden has a highly unregulated labour market, we have no minimum wage and the government doesn't really interfere in the labour market.

    Our system is based on our strong unions negotiating with employers and employer organizations.

    The vast majority of medium and large workplaces have signed collective bargaining agreements with the largest unions, for the most part it is a formality, but a very important one, with consequences if the parties fail to come to an agreement. There have been several times with large strikes, that closed or severely reduced services due to this, these negotiations and especially the strikes does show up on the national news.

    Anyway, Toys 'R Us refused to sign a CBA with the store workers union, and hired staff that wasn't in a union instead, this is allowed, so the union called a strike against TRU.

    Well, other unions saw this and wasn't happy, and started sympathy strikes, the transport workers union refused to deliver goods to TRU stores, the financial workers union refused to process payments for TRU, the printer workers union refused to print materials for TRU and do on.

    All of this successfully pushed TRU back to the negotiation table, and finally got them to sign a CBA.

    As soon as that was done, the sympathy strikes ended.

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  • [–] 9 points 4 months ago* (1 child)

    There are a lot of times I wished I could have told my boss I wouldn’t do something stupid and had the backing of a union.

    “If you make me store passwords in plaintext we all walk.”

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  • [–] 7 points 4 months ago

    How can i unionize as a one man show 😅

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  • 1 comment in c/techunionization@programming.dev view that post
    [–] 3 points 4 months ago

    Of course the industry doesn't want it. But the workers are the ones with the power to make it happen.

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